Question for BTL & HKMantis?....

[RAYNYSC]

Here's something that I came across the other night that was written by Mr. Cottrell himself.



Drew,

Sorry for my late involvement in the discussion.

I believe that Sifu Sun puts forth a very strong and caring stance for the
instructor to have towards his students. I agree with it overall though I
have differences in some areas.

First, I do not let my students go and study other styles until they are at
an advanced level in my school. I believe that to do otherwise could confuse
the student because they don't have either the physical or conceptual skills
to differentiate. Basic and intermediate level students need to be under
disciplined guidance to master the system they are studying.

I do take my students to meet and train, under my supervision, with other
sifu, however, both in Tanglang and other systems. In so doing I can assist
in their understanding and practice. I also take my intermediate and
advanced students to train in China with sifu there and in the U.S. so that
they can become better acquainted with the Tanglang community for their own
future study and research.

I will comment further as he touches on many aspects of teaching.

Steve Cottrell


_______________________________________________

Seven_Star Praying Mantis Kung-Fu Mailing List
http://www.mantisquarterly.com



So now I would like to ask you both HKMantis & BTL since you agree with your sidai. A legit question concerning this matter!....

How can you say such a thing:


It sounds as though you have your facts incorrect. I would becareful where I'd got such information or at least would have check it out better, before I questioned it with such implication attached.

So which one is it guys?.... Who should I believe....?:confused:
You all train in the same school, you should at least get your stories straight....:D

I don't think that there Is any way of disputing what he wrote.... :mad: But I know you guys will find a way to get out of this one....

Just so you know I look forward to seeing what you guy's have to say I hope that this doesn't turn into a flame war now, I mean after all it was a legit question now wasn't it....:confused:

BTL, feel free to lock it down, I'm going for the record....:)

Peace:D

[B.Tunks]

I really didnt want to join in anymore in these kind of ridiculous disputes and have avoided this message board recently as a result but I have to throw in here to try and dead this one because I have direct evidence to the contrary.

I have no official or unofficial 'affiliation' with Sifu Cottrell and in fact was as cautious and guarded with him as I am with every other so called Sifu of Tanglang/Tonglong, when I first met him.
I owe him nothing and he owes me the same. I am from a totally different branch of Tanglang and our teachings couldn't be more different.

Over a several years of interaction, via free exchange of Mantis Boxing information amongst the greater Tanglang community, I was still yet to make a judgement about his personality (other than that for some strange reason, his greater goal was to try and bring mantis practitioners together). I myself had suspicions about this notoriously friendly guy. Needless to say they have turned out to be the result of my own paranoia.

By several twists of fate I was to cross paths with Sifu Cottrell and his students in Shandong a couple of years ago. We met purely in the pusuit of Tanglang knowledge, Sifu Cottrell only knowing me from our first brief meeting in China in 1998 and via written contact. Our relationship was to be entirely based upon the business of Tanglang.

At that time I acted as the assistant coach and translator to my Shifu who was to pass on Tanglang skills to Sifu Cottrell and his group of students. My coach and myself trained the living hell out of that group of students and laid hands upon each and every one of them (kid gloves were off). At no stage (nor in the training that took place last year in Shandong with the same master, Kang Zhiqiang R.I.P), did Sifu Cottrell make any attempt to take control of, interfere in or re-interpret the material passed on.
Not only that, but he himself graciously accepted repeated corrections to his boxing (in front of his own students, no less!)and even allowed my master to alter things that he himself had previously taught his students (a very hard thing to accept).

Basically Sifu Cottrell allowed us to take his students completely out of his hands for the many hours of our training sessions. In the initial session (2000), at one stage Sifu cottrell spent the greater part of an hour going over technique, alone with Sifu's Li and Kang whilst his students trained individually with myself and two more of Kang/my students. In that time the students asked whatever they wanted and learnt whatever they pleased.
When training the material on their own back in the U.S.A they did not attempt to change it one bit (it was examined two years later). Not only that, several of Sifu Cottrells students have contacted me independantly of their own accord over the years and continue to do so.
All of this with me and Sifu Cottrell being personality and agenda-wise, as different as chalk and cheese. Some of those who trained with us there may attest to the difference between us and our approach to teaching (for starters I am no gentleman).

What I'm getting at here, is that I have no reason to go in to bat for him other than that I know completely differently from personal experience and therefore have to speak up.
Beyond that I'm pretty sure he's not going to respond to this argument because of the recent reaction.

I dont want to argue with you either. not interested.

Oh yeah, and before anyone says 'oh you know those two are old pals, you can check out Tunks's articles in mantis quarterly magazine' or some such nonsense; Bullsh.it.
I contribute to the magazine and exchange on the authentic kungfu mailing list simply because he has gotten off his ass, spent his own money and time and made the effort get such things going (something I certainly wouldnt be bothered with). Thats about the size of it...

[loki]

"At no stage (nor in the training that took place last year in Shandong with the same master, Kang Zhiqiang R.I.P), did Sifu Cottrell make any attempt to take control of, interfere in or re-interpret the material passed on.
Not only that, but he himself graciously accepted repeated corrections to his boxing (in front of his own students, no less!)and even allowed my master to alter things that he himself had previously taught his students (a very hard thing to accept)."


Hello Mr. Tunks. I have a question regarding this passage. Are you saying that his mantis as he learned it through the Wong Hon Fong lineage was corrected by your Sifu? Or are you saying that he was corrected on your Sifu's "version/lineage" of 7 Star Mantis? Assuming that he had already trained with your Sifu in the past and hence, needed to be corrected on certain things.

Just curious.

[RAYNYSC]

I respect what your saying. But the fact still remains Mr. Cottrell made the statement in question:


I do take my students to meet and train, under my supervision with other sifu, both in Tang Lang and other systems. In so doing I can assist in their understanding and practice. ( The key words here are under my supervision )

Something doesn't match up if you know what mean....:confused:

Peace:D

[B.Tunks]

Loki,

Right on the second count. That was mentioned to illustrate ego displacement; as a Sifu, in front of his own students accepting correction.

RAYNYSC,

supervising and assisting your students under another coach/master allows you to ensure that they are getting it right later on and understanding it in terms they know in the first place. Anyway, the point I was making was that he basically let it flow and did nothing more than encourage and assist his students (in many cases, even to the point of insisting they over look their prior knowledge/learning in H.K mantis, for the duration of the sessions), by translating the technical terms into cantonese and equating things where possible to previous training.

Thanks for your understanding,
Brendan Tunks

[bungda07]

Why is it RAYNYSC you continue to degress into irrelevant discusssion. Sifu Tunks is correct about our training while in China. We were visiting guests broadening our knowledge of the many great and historic aspects of the Praying Mantis systems. As a former Senior Military person I visited many places as guest of that country. One thing we never did was to become arrogant as if you knew everything while visiting. Did we learn from their great master and Sifu Tunks, hell ya we did. We placed our knowledge of the HK Mantis system on the shelf while training there. To think one knows it all, one must be a fool. The one thing we did do is still show the utmost respect at all times to our Sifu. I was amazed at how Sifu Cottrell became one of the students while training in China. The word Supervision fits right in with the word Sifu. And yes, I would want somebody with his dedication, education supervising us to make sure we were being respectful to our visiting teachers and others.

At most schools you adhire to what your teacher tells you or you want be around very long. Our school is no different. Sifu Cottrell does want us to expand our knowledge and question ideas to further our learning. My older and younger Kung Fu brothers and sisters are fortunate to have a teacher who eats breathes and lives Kung Fu. If we follow in the on the same path, no doubt we will be succesful. No matter who your teacher is, where you train, we are all part of the Praying Mantis system that "somebody created". Let's use this forum to expand our working knowledge of the system. I have read your posts in the past and found them knowlegable. I ask with the utmost respect we continue in that direction.

"The Only Easy Day was Yesterday"

Steve M.

[ursa major]

Hey RAYNYSC,

Can we all move on now ?

Thx,
UM.

[RAYNYSC]

Didn't know I was holding you up there ursa, thanks for your time Mr. Tunks & Bungda ....

Peace:D