Other arts that use Chi Sao?

[DarkKnight]

Besides Wing Chun, what other TCM styles use Chi Sao?

[Ish]

i don't know any that use chi sau but stiles like tai chi use push hands. I think praying mantis uses a similar training method too

[Pointy]

We have it.

"Pain is only natures way of telling you're in terrible agony"

[yenhoi]

Could you give some info on 'your' style.

Very interested.

Also, bu "we have it" do you do chi sao the same as in Wing Chun, or is it merely the same principles (like push hands and the mantis drills.)

tks.

strike!

[iron thread]

Any art can modify and use chi sau/push hands effectively. What you are asking for is whether or not an art trains chi sau/push hands traditionally.

[dedalus]

I agree that most arts *can* come up with chi sau, but I think there are two important things to remember here:

1) Wing Chun chi sau is really at the heart of the curriculum, it isn't an optional training adjunct, and

2) Wing chun chi sau can be very stylised.

I had never come across chi sau prior to studying wing chun - I was very impressed by the skill it trains in the practitioner, and thereafter used such drills as one measure of a club's martial potential. I now study bagua and taiji, and although we do chi sau all the time, it is much more free-form than the wing chun versions. The push-hands training tends to be a lead-up to this rather than to be an equivalent to it, I think.

In the end you have to move your sensitivity training beyond the logic of techniques and their application.

[joedoe]

We use chi sau as a training method in Wu Chu Chuan. Excellent exercise. :)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[friday]

i think there are many styles that practice chi sao
pak hok pai is one of them

888

[Pointy]

I'd say not Chi Sao but similar. My knowledge on Wing Chun is quite limited so I can't say anything with a 100% certainty.

My school's new homepage is still under construction so here's another page with a small description.

http://personal.inet.fi/yhdistys/tsm-inari/english.htm

I'll let you know when we have our own page in english.

"Pain is only natures way of telling you're in terrible agony"

[wongfeilung809]

wing chun, mantis has a form of it, theres push hands, and kali has hubud... thats all that i know of, ive seen some karate people do some one arm chi sao, but they had no idea what they were doin...
simpleangles

[DarkKnight]

Simpelangles, Goju Ryu has sticky hands, if that's what you're talking about. But they know exactly what they're doing.

[wongfeilung809]

no i wasnt talking about them...it was a "new" school in town... i would like to see goju ryu,take on sticky hands... i wonder what it looks like? better yet how they feel....
simpleangles

[KC Elbows]

The style I practice has chi sau. All the chi sau techniques are taught first as the chi gung they relate to. The chi sau is not as linear as wing chun. I'm curious what the mantis version is like, as my art is descended from mantis, among other things.

[iron thread]

"In the end you have to move your sensitivity training beyond the logic of techniques and their application."

I just want to note that in Tai Chi it's the other way around.
As in: In the end you will already have developed sensitivity and push hands skill, and ready to move on to techniques applied in push hands.

[iron thread]

"In the end you have to move your sensitivity training beyond the logic of techniques and their application."

In this case, I am assuming that you said sensitivity training to mean the general term of chi sau/push hands.

If this is not what you meant, can you put it in different words so that I can understand?

[dedalus]

My view is probably unorthodox in the broader taiji world, but in my opinion formlessness is the ultimate goal for the taiji fighter. I'll have a go at explaining what I mean (but it *is* off the top of my head).

The main form itself teaches principles of movement explicitly and applications implicitly, push hands teaches movement implicitly (you begin to *feel* what is correct) and basic applications semi-explicitly, and then later you move on to fighting witout any thought about what you're doing - you already know movement and applications, but to be an effective fighter you have to dump "if-then" thought patterns and learn to respond uniquely to whatever confronts you.

To my mind, that is the pinnacle of sensitivity training, a term which I mean to encompass any direct-feedback "touch" training that moves you towards reflexive fighting.

I guess that genuine fighting is something I see as being beyond mere applications (and I might add that there is certainly no 1:1 technique-to-application mapping). We're thinking of a similar progression, Iron Thread, but I'm suggesting there are further levels.

[dooder]

My teacher teaches chi soa along with his southern shaolin five animals when he teaches the crane forms. I think lots of styles have it. He teaches non wing chun wooden dummy too.

[Shaolin36]

Dooder, what school, is there a website. I may be moving to Mesa. Just Curious.

[Royal Dragon]

We also do "Sticky hands".
It is part of our Internal division. I originally thought it was from our Southern style, but was corrected. Basically, we learn it around the same time as we learn the Taji Quan "Push hands" exercise. Both are taught in various stages and levels, with the goal of mastering and then progressing to the Natural Fist (our highest form) and becomming a completely free form fighter.


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[iron thread]

Thanks for explaining, Dedalus. I believe that you are trying to explain to me that it's not applying the techniques in push hands, but it is learning to do it without thought and merely through response? (Just to make sure I'm not picking up the wrong message)

[dedalus]

That's a fairly concise way of putting it, I guess :)

[fiercest tiger]

we call it differently and have many chi sau 2 man drills/games. its good to learn how to fight from that range, so learn to stick! :)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[dooder]

My sifu is joeseph eager and he teaches at his house in down town phoenix. If you move I definatly recomend him. He teaches a broad variety of stuff including shaolin. You can email me if you want to know more. I can't rember his site adress but i'll get it for you. pollen3@hotmail.com

[Shaolin36]

Dooder,
That would be cool. I am debating on moving to AZ right now, my bro lives there and a good KF school is a must if I go anywhere. If you dont want to post on here let me know and I will give you my email.

Awaiting your response,

Shaolin36

[dooder]

yeah I just keep forgetting to ask him in class what the site is and I've never checked it out. If I space out getting back to you email me at pollen3@hotmail.com. Go ahead and email me you address if you want. I'll probably get back to you faster that way.