full contact sparring experience

[Cranestyle]

hello everyone,
don't post regulary, but thought that i would share a sparring experience that i had a while ago -

i am about 63kg and 5'5 and have been training for 5 years in shotokan and 3 years in white crane kung fu,
my opponent had been training for less time (about 2 years) but had been training grappling as well, and has been playing rugby for one of the top teams for at least 5 years, so obviously has high fitness, a degree of tolerance to pain and impact and a good takedown. he is about 5'7 and about 80kg

I was not intending to go in at a full contact pace at first, but my opponent obviously was more used to this so we started with me attempting to dodge and duck out of the way of my friend steaming forward. he had a great amount of strength when coming forwards and was forcing me onto the back foot enough with consecutive punches that hit the side of my head, i was counterpunching and shifting in my stance to try and counter, my punches were mainly from the outside with hooks and backfists, i was trapping and holding my friends arm to set up for other attacks quite well. my opponent was also doing well however, and blood was soon streaming from my nose. I caught my opponent in the head with a hook kick that scraped down his face and we stopped for a break. This was after about 15 mins.

In the break i felt really ****, because i was taking some serious shots from someone who had trained for less time than me, even if i was giving them as much back. we commenced sparring again. I started using my legs more landing another two hook kicks and started combining the body shifting from my shotokan with some of the blocks and counters from my kung fu, this worked better than before and i managed the distance better instead of trying to brawl with someone much bigger who likes brawling.
My opponent asked if we could do grappling as well. I thought "there is no way that is going to hurt as much as getting punched in the nose by a dude that looks like a short indian version of bolo." so i agreed even though i have no sparring experience.... cont

[Shaolin-Do]

Ive found it a little more "realistic" to just do full range sparring... Start stand up full contact, Let it move where it needs to. If it goes to the ground, grapple it out, if you stay up, keep fighting.
Ive found it that if I get on the inside or around people larger than me it keeps them at bay quite a bit, but a large person who grapples... Unless you know how to grapple fairly well dont get on the inside of a grappler who is fairly larger than you... :)

[Cranestyle]

continued...

so we started again this time with grappling and now it was obvious that this was my opponents favourite he steamed forwards to try and take me down, i thought "**** trying to stand normally against that" and sunk into a really low horse stance to get my centre of gravity lower. it worked for a while and i got some shots in on my feet before i got taken down. With no experience on the ground i basically tried to cover up, the first time i got taken down i got choked, the second time i put the guys fingers in my gob (yes i know, its not right but like i said, i have no ground experience so i improvised, i didnt bite anyway). the third time i landed two elbows to the back sinking in my stance as i delivered them while sprawling against my opponent, but didn't throw any more after that because i thought that was a bit too nasty even for me :eek: yet again i got taken down, managed to get up and deliver some shots and taake one or two back. i now had a badly bruised ear but my nose had stopped bleeding.

after this, some geezer that said he was training for the 'ufc' in britain and trained with my opponent came in and decided to watch us. we had another break and i was feeling much better, it had taken me a while to adjust from some of the other people who i have sparred with but i really felt everything coming together. We decided that we would do striking again and everything started coming together i landed yet another hook kick and started throwing in low roundhouses ashai-barai leg sweeps and whatever i could to knock my opponent off course when he started his kickboxing/karate "bull rush" the simultaneous sidestep and strike that i had been working on started connecting on the face or jaw every time. my blocking also started working better. I landed a hook kick and mr ufc britain said - "you cant do those kicks if he was doing grappling, try it you only do kicks and you only do grappling". we thought this would be a bit pointless at first, but tried it and surprisingly my constant leg kicks reallly took the sting out of my opponents rush. i defended succesfully from any takedown for at least 5 mins did a stepping over kick to the inside of my ops leg to distract him he looked down and i hit him in the head with a left leg roundhouse that is the single most beautiful shot i have ever hit anyone with. My op, reeled back and wobbled around for a bit, i checked he was alright (no need to follow it up, im not THAT nasty) and he said "yeah you can tell its a good shot when you black out for a few seconds" :) that made me feel all warm and glowy inside. so warm and glowy in fact that i completely forgot i was meant to be defending that takedown and promptly got choked again. :mad:

we had one more break chatted to mr ufc a bit and had one more round, our rounds had been lasting about 20mins each so by now conditioning came into it and the fact that i was 20 kg lighter was suddenly a good thing rather than the hadicap it had been in the grappling. i was contiously moving and hitting from various angles coming in at 45 degrees rather than straight, my opponents swings were getting wild and were more like big girly slaps than proper punches (joking mate). he asked if we could stop so we did. My head was hurting the rest of the day.

thats about it, i just thought it was interesting the way my karate and kungfu translated itself over to fight against more full contact kickboxing and grappling

nicko

[kwaichang kaned]

It's an old argument but IMO full contact sparring is integral if you intend to use the art you practise to defend yourself.
Most techniques practised in the kwoon are with compliant parteners who are not throwing a big haymaker right to your head while you fumble around trying to execute a wrist lock.
In many of situations unless you are a master you will get hit.
How will you know how you will react when you do?
Originally i studied Muay Thai (many moons ago) and several month after i started practising White Crane i was suprised at the reluctance of fellow student,even the ones higher in the system than me to even condition themselves properly let alone spar with any intent.
Fortunately i have friends well skilled in Muay Thai and Japanese Jujitsu more than willing to step into the breach.

[Shaolin-Do]

Me and my roommate would do "haha, you got stuck drills"
Consists of taking a swing at an unkowing roommate. If you connect, you connect. If you get blocked, then sh!t, someones gettin quicker.
:)
It actually helps awareness quite a bit... Also makes one very paranoid and dangerous for women to be around.
hehehe

[Cranestyle]

thats exactly what i told myself after this fight. We are starting full contact at my club in the next month.

[Shaolin-Do]

I have to host "full contact nights" at my house. Have MMA matches... (by mma I just mean mixed martial arts, judo, jujitsu, karate (shotokan and shinto ryu)
I think thats bout all I the people I know... oh yeah, 2 BJJ guys. Havnet sparred in a while tho, Im falling apart at the ripe old age of 20. :(
Busted left knee, and my shoulder still hangs about 1 CM out of the socket... Gotta get it at least 1/6 CM before I can start actively sparring with more than just 1 hand... But I gotta say, Its makin my right hand hella quick, and people are going to be in trouble when the left gets back into the mix.
:)

[Stacey]

bull****. the most realistic sparring I've encountered was when we put on goodwill shirts and used shirtgrabbing, hitting, throwing and locking. It changes the game. It was better than a hockey fight, but how good is your wing chun when someone has your sleaves or your shirt pulled over your head.

[Dark Knight]

The more realistic you can make your training the better fighter you will be. The full contact lets you know if someone will blast through you best shot, or if you can close in without getting hurt.

Good training, enjoy it often.

[Shaolin-Do]

I usually wear no shirt :)
And in a real fight situation, Ill usually pull off my shirt as soon as I see trouble arising.
Or Ill only wear a wife beater, which will tear off if someone tries to grab it. Already been tested.
:rolleyes:

[Shaolin-Do]

On a side note, been testing certain hits, and a bareknuckle hit to the ribs at 50% power hurts more than a padded 100% hit.
:)

[Dark Knight]

Or Ill only wear a wife beater, which will tear off if someone tries to grab it. Already been tested.

Tell your wife to stop ripping them in a fight.

WHat do you tell a woman with two black eyes?

Nothing you told the b#### twice already.

[Shaolin-Do]

lol... dont get me started on jokes. I will get in trouble.
how do you make a b!tch scream twice?
bahaha.....
No no no... Id better not start.:rolleyes:
:D
:cool:

[Merryprankster]

Full contact sparring is a waste of time. Real martial artists only go half speed. And in preset patterns. :D

Please get appropriate protective gear. Nothing happened this time, but, at a minimum, head gear, cup, mouthpiece, some sort of glove and some shin pads. I would consider kidney protectors too.

Sounds like you did well. Congrats.

[Shuul Vis]

Shaolin do---

Me and GDA used to do that "hah you got stuck " kind of thing. But the funny thing is after a few months of doing that, we both knew exactly when one of us was about to strike so we just moved out of range before we got the chance to attack. Did that happen to you? Did you start to just feel your roomates about to attack? We would always laugh about it because it is now almost impossible for me or him to catch each other off guard. I dont know how true it is with other attackers though.

[jungle-mania]

Well, congrats to cranestyle, looks like you managed to hold your own against MMA stylist, especially the odds of traditional kicks against grappling.

for shuul vis, your experience is nothing new, most of us get it all the time. thats why you need to change your sparring partner all the time, gives you a more rounded perspective to fighting and allow you to hone your basic skills.

[Neurotic]

Cranestype - great post!

Just out of curiosity, what protection did you guys use, if any?

Obviously you were giving stuff a fair bit of leeway, considering you were throwing grappeling and whatnot into the mix.

[Cranestyle]

cheers for the support everyone,

when we did this we had very little equipment - two pairs of bag gloves (!) and one pair of shin and instep protectors. Both of us came out of it battered, bruised and deciding that next time head gaurds would be nice + gloves that you can grapple with. Headgaurds more for the fact that where we spar has not got a padded floor so any future knockouts would result in someone headbutting wooden floor. This is not my idea of fun.
mma gloves are needed so that both of us can grapple properly and i can use the grabbing and striking tecs from my white crane, i don't mind getting slightly battered, so huge gloves arent so much of a necessity and personally i am prepared to risk brain cells in order to see if what i am learning is effective. :D

groingaurds & gumshields needed next time. i am prepared to risk brain cells but NOT testicles or teeth.

personal lessons learned:

ask what contact people want to go in at BEFORE starting

grappling experience would help a lot in fighting big guys.

traditional kung fu & karate techs CAN work in full contact.

it is hard to get up with some dude that weighs 20kg more than you lying on you... unless you chew their fingers.

and finally

never accept to fight someone on the spur of the moment if they are healthy, big & strong, and you have had 4 hrs sleep and have smoked 1/2 oz of skunk the night before or you will get battered round the head for 20 mins until your brain is in working order.

might use that last one as my signature...

nicko

[djh]

Let me guess- you're in London? I'm in Leeds at the moment but would be up for any friendly biffo/training if anyone is up here.

I've trained Chow Gar for about 5 years but am doing Vale Tudo at the moment (no good SPM up here).

I read in your post that you were wearing bag gloves?!? Get some grappling ones- you will find your CMA techniques will come through 100% better. I've sparred a few boxing/muay thai guys now and get pasted with full gloves... when we do stand up with the grappling gloves though (or even better bare hand) I am able to trap, redirect and flow so much better and get on top of those same people without too much trouble. Maybe it's just me but with the full gloves I feel like I've lost so much and the whole thing just turns into a boxing style fight (which I'm not training for).

[Cranestyle]

yep London i'm afraid.

i found that the gloves did make me go a bit kickboxing in my defence, covering up rather than blocking sometimes, but with no gloves or gloves with open fingers this is never a problem. so i just need to find some nice ones.

[Neurotic]

That interesting about the comparison's with MMA gloves and Boxing gloves.

I've started using boxing gloves since about feb or so, and I've fallen in love with them :D

I do Wing Chun, and of course we have much in the way of trapping etc.

I used to only use MMA style gloves (or related), however, what I have found with boxing gloves, is that I focus less on the small things at my wrist, and concentrate more on my body, and using all of my motions (arms, body, legs etc) to trap and pin and restrict my opponents movement.

On top of that, being hit with a boxing glove hurts less :cool:

I find that nowadays, when doing drills, or light open hand sparring, I can move better, and utilise my whole body better than I did before, and the grabbing and pinning either (a) becomes better, or (b) becomes totally surpurfluous to my overall strategy.

Anyhoo - Just some thoughts I had :D obviously if you are going to do grappeling on the floor as well, you will need some sort of MMA style glove.

Dumb question - how you get chocked out (he get your back?), if he was wearing boxing gloves? or wasn't he?

[Cranestyle]

i got choked the first time when he had gloves from him getting round the back of me and using his forarms rather than his hand across my throat. my friends bag gloves were made better - leather and flexible fingers which allowed him to grip a bit more, wheras my ones didnt even allow me to put a finger in between my friends forarm and my own neck. After the first lot of grappling we took the gloves off (i was only allowed to do kicks remember)

[Unstoppable]

what kind of grappling does he do??????

[Cranestyle]

i think jujitsu + the rugby tackle

[Unstoppable]

JJJ or BJJ????