Martial Artists and Cults of Personality

[rogue]

What's the deal with many martial artists who tie themselves so tightly with certain martial arts figures? I don't mean admiration but obsession that these people can do no wrong, loose no fight, and speak truths that no one else ever thought of. From JKD to TKD, from major VT organizations to small karate dojos there are people who will defend their favorite icon beyond what is normal.

But why?:confused:

[Shaolin-Do]

Jesus Christ is a perfect example.
It gives people something to hold on to, a reason for doing what they are doing?
:D

[kwaichang kaned]

Bruce Lee
One guy i practise with is convinced that he is the be all and end all of martial artist.

[red5angel]

Rogue, I can speak from personal experience here ;) Some of these people have some serious skill, but on top of that they paint a fine sheen of falseness that is hard, or sometimes not so hard to see through if you want to see it.
Sometimes they say just the things you want to hear and tell you all about how hard they train and how long and difficult it has been for them and now how lucky you are to be getting what they have.

[Ford Prefect]

Because the dedicate so much of their time and money to this person. It would be crushing to find out what they learned has flaws. Most people are scared of introspection.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't know. John C. Kim has been so thurally debunked it isn't even funny, but still people worship him. It's like their brains got sucked right out of their skulls or somethig.

[bodhitree]

If I want to listen to only one person thinking they have the way, I will miss 98% of the way.

[red5angel]

What I don't like is the obsession these "cult leaders" have with painting themselves as perfect. I experienced this kind of thing with one personality who had soem serious issues that would get in the way of teaching effectively. Like not liking to be hit, or showing off too much. I won't learn from someone like this anymore, it's useless to try because what this all pointed to is that they will be holding back at some point so you don't get better then them. They may even actively hinder your improvement.

[bodhitree]

People do the same thing with systems. I agree a student should have some loyalty to there system, but again everything has something to offer. My dad is that way with Tae Kwan Do. He doesnt want to hear about any other MA. A tai chi teacher who was telling me I should give up Shaolin practice said "dont dig seven shallow wells" I replied " make one deep well but out of many building meterials".

ruguo ni neng kan zhege keneng shi zhongguoren

[shaolinboxer]

Transference.

[rubthebuddha]

also comes as an observed expection and adoption of other people's behaviors.

if you're in an organization or kwoon and that is how the instructor is treated, anyone who wishes to stay and be accepted in that org/kwoon will have to match other people's behaviors. also, if they perceive it as normal ("everyone else does it and doesn't seem to think it's odd, so i guess i'll do it, too") then they may be even more likely to adopt the behavior.

it also feeds on itself. if you have a school where a certain behavior is the norm, people will go out of their way to push that behavior to another level just so they can be noticed. an instructor may not see it as a subtle one-up-manship, rather as just nice treatment from his or her students, but the students may begin to feel that they constantly have to do more and more to please their sifu, organization or whatever. any new students that come in may acknowledge this behavior right off the bat, as they are more objective. if they are willing to adopt this behavior as well, they'll stick around. if they think it's crap, they'll leave.

sifus that encourage such behavior are another story entirely, and i think they should be kicked in the nuts. i don't think there's any etymological similarity between the words cult and cultivate, but having a proper cut typically requires cultivation -- work on the part of the personality to encourage certain behaviors.

[Shaolin-Do]

I know what you mean, tried to bring up the GM Sin bull sh!t while we were doing forms in the ally last wednesday, everyone got so uncomfortable I could feel it in the air and sh!t... A lot of the people there seem to idolize GM Sin as a god... Tried to tell a couple of them that there is part of the reason other Kung fu schools look down on SD so much... Response I got was "other kung fu schools look down on SD?"
*sigh*... Still havent talked to sifu about it...

[red5angel]

doing forms in the alley shaolin do?

Some people want to "worship", they want to be led. these people are susceptible, but willingly, to personalities who want followers.

[Shaolin-Do]

Its almost to an embarassing level tho dude...
Someone brought up the Mike tyson vs GM Sin thing... One of the arguments I heard was that "dude, no way Tyson would win, GM Sin can climb up a telephone pole without using his arms OR legs!"
I simply put my palm to my forehead, sighed, and shook my head...
My sifu doesnt seem to have these misconceptions, but I still havent really talked to him about it. Upper echelons seem to get really testy when you ask them about all the SD "politics".

[Shuul Vis]

GDA's teacher can glow in the dark. So i worship him like i would any light bulb.

[Cody]

lots of good posts and points here.
red5angel strikes gold. yes! I too have learned that I am better off staying away from certain kinds of teachers. Better to be without.
I have also found that those who require students to be obsessively devoted to them, Might also operate along the same lines in terms of their own development. To me, this represents a personal shortcoming in the teacher at the very least. A need to dominate and control without accountability. For who dares to question, criticize, disagree with the words, the deeds, the past, the agendas, the "wisdom"? How can one function outside of this? You are made to feel you can't. Sometimes it is hard to find the right group.

I am thinking that it is best to be part of a group, but to be able to function independently, according to one's own integrity. Respect for both. If your integrity is not accepted and developed, but only the teacher's, then what is the cost here to learn technique? No one should have to sell out in order to progress, even if the ceiling is glass.
Bottom line is agree or be cast out one way or another; agree or be kept as a financial asset (if you don't verbalize your misgivings).

The "cult" of personality, or anything else, Owns and is out for its own power elitism. It can pretend to nurture, and it can pretend to truly empower those who join. It feeds on the needs of others in order not to starve. It's a lie, even when some of the foundation (martial art expertise and different levels) has beautiful validity.

On a kinder note. It could be the outgrowth of misguided parental sentiment (father figure) and/or traditiional views combined with ego, in an arena where someone Has to be in charge, and abilities can go offf the Richter scale. In that sense, there can be an honest and genuine beginning to cult of personality in MA, which is both flawed at onset and on continuing. Students respond to this according to what they need, even according to what is missing in everyday society or in family.

Cody

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Shuul Vis
GDA's teacher can glow in the dark. So i worship him like i would any light bulb.
maybe that's what caused GDA's orbs to have problems? :confused:

[Shaolin-Do]

lol.
Poor gda has problems with his orbs....

I can fly like that kid in the commercial who flaps his nose.

[Starchaser107]

Who's john C. Kim?:confused:

[rubthebuddha]

aka "iron" kim, founder of ... oom young do/chung moo do (sorry, had to get the mcdojo's straight in my head for a second).

apparently he can do a flying sidekick of a seven-story building and other neat stuff.

he's a magnificent person, and can do just about everything better than the rest of us, with one exception ...











... pay his taxes.

[Shaolin-Do]

Hes got nothin on the Iron Crotch dude.

[KC Elbows]

What taxes?

Also, it's up to an 11 story fall he can side kick down last I checked, and statements have been made to higher ranking students that it's as high as 22 stories.:eek:

However, it looks suspiciously like a normal flying side kick.

Being in contact with some early members of that school, it's really interesting how that whole thing sort of mushroomed. A year before opening his first chung moo school in the US, Kim had his name copyrighted. One student, who is in some of the early pics, seems to have almost singlehandedly built the early chung moo empire while Kim was floundering in California and Minnesota. This student was a bit of a rough character, and there is general agreement that, had he not left in disgrace before then, the tax case would have never happened the way it did, because he would have killed the informants. Probably just as well then.

Anyway, in exactly the same way as an earlier poster mentioned, the students felt welcome in increasing the shows of loyalty until it was an absolute competition, especially in the higher ranks. This received an unusual amount of support from the people running the show.

During one meeting, instructors from the Chicago schools were introduced to instructors from the Minnesota schools. Kim told the Chicago instructors that the Minnesota instructors were actually lower belts. The chicago instructors felt like slackers, as these "lower belts" knew all the same forms as them.

On the flip side, I find that many of the things that went on in chung moo go on on a much smaller scale in most martial arts schools. Rigid heirarchies, giving too much credit to one's teacher, ostracizing those who weren't as good or were hobbyists, thinking that somehow martial arts makes them better because they're in shape, obsessing about how much better your art is to anyone else's, etc.

[rogue]

Wait, are you talking about JKD or MMA? :confused: :D

Thing is many of the CoP are not so obvious. Many are like the one that centers around a Korean art which supposedly all other arts sprang from, or arts that center around some master who's been dead for decades.

[KC Elbows]

Chung moo is supposedly the source, the antediluvean art or some such thing.

There's also a phenomenon the name of which escapes me right now, but it's in play in all cults. As it worked in chung moo, people worked out very hard, if not very smart. I conpleted a lesson with a broken sternum at one point, those who gained respect routinely took part in equally silly things that required serious, if misplaced, willpower.

The more of that energy one applies in a practice that has dubious benefits, the more steadfast one becomes in the process, in what they're doing. The more they believe solely by the effort they have placed into it. There's a name for this effect, but it totally escapes me right now.

As for less obvious, I don't think so. I think there's a certain amount of subtlety before a certain line is crossed, but once you are looking from the outside at something that has become a personality cult, it will be clearly recognizable that these people are living under their own rules, and their own rules make no sense.

It's only from the inside, when you're making the effort, and after leaving for a period, that anything about a personality cult seems at all normal. Mind you, that's my opinion as someone whose been there and done that.

BTW, I like the "Classic troll" approach. Could you do one about MMA Vs. TMA?

[red5angel]

speaking of cults, I am starting the cult of red5angel because I am pretty sure I can kick Bruce Lees ass.

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by red5angel
speaking of cults, I am starting the cult of red5angel because I am pretty sure I can kick Bruce Lees ass.
picking on a dead man? now that sounds REAL tough. :mad:





;)
what you should do is start the "international kickers of bruce lee's ass association"(IKBLAA), and say you are president and founder. that will give you automatic clout right there.

[Nick]

I know a dude who does Chung Moo Do. He was slap boxing with this one guy, and he kept trying to attack when the guy was out of range, doing fancy kicks, and at one point dropped into some ultra low, fancy stance. Rediculous.

Later...

[rogue]

KC Elbows, I'm not trolling this thread, but if it works as well as my troll I'll be happy. ;)

[David Jamieson]

As Homer J Simpson once said...and I quote:

"Oh Marge, it takes 2 to lie, one to lie and the other to listen".

Having said that. I think that cults form at the core. What I mean is, that it's the people that join the cult that are responsible for its existance moreso than the figurehead of that cult.

If you ignore the madman, he will continue to scream on the street corner, but no one will listen.

In MA, far to many people cast great expectations on their teachers. Often time without giving thought to the fact that the teacher is just a person like any other who has their own fears and hopes, failures and successes etc etc.

To expect that someone out there can transfer their experience to you directly and without interpretation and work on your half of the transmission is a major shortcoming in the run of the mill martial artist.

I study with so and so, ergo I will be a great fighter is the greatest misgiving that many have.

It's good to have a good teacher, but in the end, it's all you baby, it's all you. You will either transform, or you remain pupa. :D

The longer you stay pupa, the longer you will not fly on your own.

cheers

[red5angel]

OOH! Good idea rub!! Also, I can kick his ass dead or alive, unfortunately until our technology gets better, it will have to be dead, but I am not afraid fo a dead guy. I feel my chances of winning that fight are atleast 50/50.

[KC Elbows]

KL,
"...it's the people that join the cult that are responsible for its existance moreso than the figurehead of that cult."

While I agree that they are responsible for their part of it, your method means that, once they leave, it is the next group in that is responsible, and the next, but NEVER as much the founder, even when he or she is the only real constant. And then you have to consider that a number of these founders probably perpetuate it on purpose. While I agree with your "madman" relation, a couple of these guys are more cutthroat than mad.

In theory, you're correct, but you are placing responsibility for a phenomenon on a group typically dominated by 17 year old men, and partially absolving 40+ year old men who willfully benefit from that 17 year old group, and generally do whatever necessary to perpetuate that market, almost invariably resorting to false advertising(see OE Simon trial, see JC Kim trial, see schools with supposed ancient techniques in secret books no one is allowed to see from unknown sources written during unknown dynasties, see schools with shaolin temple tablets claiming said tablets mean they trained the shaolin monks, all these more than likely fall under false advertising, a legal line crossed by the founders, NOT the gullible students).

Buyer beware is a great saying, but it doesn't mean that if you see a con man on your street, you should let him stay there.

[rogue]

But what if the person or persons the CoP is built around is dead? Also the 17 year old men must believe that they do benefit from belonging to the cult. It really is by some mutual exchange of benefit that any cult exists.

[shaolinboxer]

Noone ever thinks they are in a cult when they are in a cult. That's one of the things that makes it a cult.

For more info on cults try www.csj.org

[KC Elbows]

I didn't say that the 17 year olds aren't responsible, but that KL's ratio was non-functional. By placing most of the blame on the members, you deflect blame from the one constant, the founder/cultmaster(thus bypassing your question about dead founders:p ). The members invariably learn what's going on and leave, but the cultmaster continues as long as he or she can, or in the case of certain schools, scales back the cult thing before it gets that weird(and thus, do not warrant being part of this discussion).

Martial arts has to be the safest place in the US for a con man. He will be protected by legitimate teachers, because they will blame the student base more than the con man, he will be easily able to discredit anyone who leaves his school without serious repercussion. If a con man runs business on a street corner, eventually he will get arrested, but in martial arts, as long as he or she doesn't do anything obscenely stupid, like running skimmed money across the country in order to evade taxes and having ZERO ownership in anything while living a lavish lifestyle, as long as he keeps it within reason, he will get away with it.

Now, at the smallest level, these cults are just schools where ego and admiration have gotten out of hand. But, at their largest level, I think you'll find most of them are merely cults because cults are the efficient way to run the scam. More than once I've heard ranking members of such schools ridicule gullible students after ripping them off(not to their faces of course), and not ironically, this is the same level at which you will not find instructors who will talk on the record about their experiences, because they know they break the law. However, to them, everyone under them is getting conned, but they are STILL on the path, in their heads. Everyone thinks they're on the path, and that those under them might get on the path, but aren't on it yet. It's a pretty stable setup for a while, because everyone is so concerned with moving the people beneath them that they don't see how moved they are by people above them.

So yes, there is a perceived mutual exchange, but the fact is, in any large cult martial art org(which is what I'm largely limiting my part of the discussion to, as I feel that the end result is either abandoning the cult model, or going large with it, so the only effective point to argue is what the end result is), anyway, in any large martial arts cult, you have a upper echelon who is breaking the law(false advertising, you may as well add slander to that, because that's what they do to influential instructors who leave), and a lower echelon who is not.

To worry about the blame of the lower echelon is purposeless except in a psychological standpoint- past that, it achieves nothing, because they do not break the law, and thus nothing can be done to them. With one exception:

Prosecute the cult masters, and you directly hit the belief of the followers, sooner or later. This may not end their behavior, but it will seriously limit it. Get them on the stand in court, and they suddenly will have to say things that they would never let their followers hear, and their followers will eventually hear these things.

Again, I'm not saying that followers hold no responsibility, but that focussing on them is focussing on the one part of the equation that is self-repairing. The followers climb through the ranks, are given responsibility to maintain an illusion while still believing it, and eventually leave from the weight of this dichotomy.

But the cult master is self-perpetuating. As long as he has worshippers, he will view himself a god among men, royalty, as one well known cult master fancies himself. It doesn't matter how many people leave, there will always be more. To approach the discussion in the context of the student base as the core of the problem assumes that that approach will yeild something new, but I tell you, it will not. There are always more 17 year olds, but there is only a handful of cult masters.

I just broke my space bar. It's listing to port as we speak. See what you've done, Rogue, you and your troll posts.

[MasterKiller]

I haven't read everything here, but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

Part of the blame has to fall on the individual who joins. We have had at least 5 people in the past year contact our school, either through email, letter, or walk-in, looking for someone to teach them the 'true path' and pledging their devotion. My Sifu does not pretend to teach anything other than Kung Fu skills, yet that does not stop people from asking him to become disciples of the Buddha, etc. My Sifu isn't even buddhist. I'm sure most people here have similar experinces in their schools. You usually roll your eyes and call them a nut; but nonetheless, they are actively seeking someone to guide them in any direction other than the one they are currently going.

These people are obviously looking to fill a void in their lives, and a lot of them are willing to put the blinders on themselves if it means they can find a place to belong.

[KC Elbows]

Yes, but knowing that, what does that do, functionally? Nothing really. Whereas merely prosecuting laws already in existence could minimize the problem.

For instance, if everyone here posted an anonymous FTC complaint against every lame cult school for each point of contantion(ability to fly, teaching the shaolin monks when the school clearly does kenpo, etc), it could achieve far more than worrying about the number of people who are looking for an aesthetic path in life, but don't know where to find one.

After all, that's what most of those people are looking for, it's just that there aren't a lot of options that way for the eastern leaning ones. There's nothing inherently wrong with that desire as well, so what purpose does "fixing" it or blaming hold? None really. If someone asks to be a buddhist acolyte or some such thing, a good business practice would be, if you know a buddhist temple, to guide them to it, especially considering that you know that as a martial arts instructor in the eastern arts, you're gonna attract a certain number of those people, and thus, you avert them going to someone who will take advantage. They might even return to learn your arts, and learn their religion from elsewhere.

I mean, the large groups that I'm thinking of all have a religious component that is poorly thought out and somewhat hidden from view, but the members are really there for that as well. There is nothing wrong with that search for religion. To be honest, if we are to look at them as accepting rediculous things, what have we to say about people who believe christ turned water to wine, or that anyone was reincarnated?

Cults form around a person or a very small group. Those who leave cults leave because they define that person or group, and found that they were not on the aesthetic path they pitched. Again, the members are self repairing. The rulers are not. They are self perpetuating, and thus, endlessly prosecutable because of their behaviors.

So yes, the members make it all possible, but knowledge of that is meaningless, because you cannot instantly remove inexperience from the human equation. New members will forever make it possible, but the leader's behaviors will forever make it vulnerable to law. Which focus has more potential benefits, on the members, or the leaders? I say the leaders.