Flat fook sau

[e-Warrior]

Hi all.

In a thread on the VTAA forum, it was stated that students of Victor Kan perform a flat fook sau. When I asked what they meant, I didn't get an answer :( so I thought I'd try here.

The fook we perform at VK's kwoon has the finger tips touching to form a beak hand. The wrist is bent at ninety degrees (i.e. for the right arm the fingers would be pointing to the left) and the beak is in the same horizontal plane as the arm. The arm is horizontal, parallel to the ground and lies on or as near as possible to the centreline. The elbow is kept in.

Now I have my own opinions about all this but I'd like to know what you guys think. Is the VK fook a flat fook sau in your opinion? If so, why? If not, what then is a flat fook?

[rubthebuddha]

maybe they meant flat as in the top of the hand (from wrist to thumbknuckle or index finger knuckle) is parallel to the ground?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by e-Warrior
The fook we perform at VK's kwoon has the finger tips touching to form a beak hand. The wrist is bent at ninety degrees (i.e. for the right arm the fingers would be pointing to the left) and the beak is in the same horizontal plane as the arm. The arm is horizontal, parallel to the ground and lies on or as near as possible to the centreline. The elbow is kept in.

Like you, I call this fuk sao when I am showing or performing it in the performance of Sil Lim Tao, but the hand is held that way only to stretch and strengthen the wrist. That hand/wrist combination is not in fact, fuk sao. Fuk has a particular meaning in Cantonese. Fuk sao is properly a hand held palmside down, essentially a turned over tan sao, fingers pointed forward.


Now I have my own opinions about all this but I'd like to know what you guys think. Is the VK fook a flat fook sau in your opinion? If so, why? If not, what then is a flat fook?

I think that folks are only quibbling about definitions. They are both called fuk sao, but only the flat one fits the Cantonese definition. If the first set is practiced only with the hand held flat, part of the conditioning aspect is lost.

Regards,

[Wingman]

Originally posted by e-Warrior
The fook we perform at VK's kwoon has the finger tips touching to form a beak hand. The wrist is bent at ninety degrees (i.e. for the right arm the fingers would be pointing to the left) and the beak is in the same horizontal plane as the arm. The arm is horizontal, parallel to the ground and lies on or as near as possible to the centreline. The elbow is kept in.

I perform fook sao almost similar as you described, except for a few differences. These are:
a) The fingertips don't touch in order to form a beak hand. Instead, the tip of the thumb is placed between the middle finger and ring finger.
b) The arm is not horizontal & parallel to the ground. Instead, the arm is angled slightly upwards.

Now I have my own opinions about all this but I'd like to know what you guys think. Is the VK fook a flat fook sau in your opinion? If so, why? If not, what then is a flat fook? [/QUOTE]

I also execute another fook sao with the hands pointing towards the opponent. I don't know if this is what you mean by flat fook sao.

There is a previous thread about fook sao (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=22234&highlight=fook+sao). It also discussed about bent wrist fook sao & flat fook sao.

[e-Warrior]

I don't know why people on the VTAA forum thought our fook is flat but I think they're wrong. This is obvious from the posts made in this thread and the previous one mentioned by Wingman.

In my opinion, the hooked fook is a VERTICAL fook sau and the straight/fingers pointing forwards is FLAT. I think the terms refer to the alignment of the wrist, not the elevation of the arm or position of the hand as the VTAA guys thought. If you imagine a line running horizontally through the wrist, from one side to the other, then in the flat fook version, this line will be more or less horizontal. In the hook version, this line will be vertical, hence the term.

At VKCVT we prefer the hook version. As I see it the pros and cons of both versions are as follows:

FLAT
====
PROS - greater contact area hence easier to sense an in coming attack. Also you're halfway to doing a block (usually Wu I think) hence faster in defence. And your hand is also in a better position to attack.

CONS - the above means you've more or less committed yourself to those techniques. If you need to do something else (tan say in response to a lower lau sau) you're at a disadvantage.

VERTICAL
=======
PROS - it's "neutral", ie you're not attempting to preempt what to do. Thus no technique is favoured and they all take a similar amount of time to perform. From the previous thread (haven't read it all yet) some people seem to be saying that the elbow in the flat version can stick out - in the vertical the elbow is kept in to act as another line of defence.

CONS - not so sensitive. Although the time to execute all techniques is now equal, this means your speed has been reduced to a common denominator.

It's interesting that some people do both, depending on the circumstances. At Victor Kan's we always do the hook version so it hadn't occurred to me that guys might be switching from one to the other.

[black and blue]

Hello E-Warrior,

Nice to see another Londoner on the forum. :)

I would agree largely with John W's post. Where I train, the Fook Sau in SNT has its 'shape' to strengthen and stretch the wrist. For the same reason our Huen Sau is slow in the form.

I train with Kamon (Covent Garden, Croydon and Crawley classes). If you click the link, and scroll down to the Poon Sau picture featuring Mike and Marcia, you can see how we use Fook Sau in Chi Sau.

http://www.kamonwingchun.com/KamonTraining.asp



Duncan

[e-Warrior]

Hi black and blue

Thanks for the link to the Kamon site.

The fook looks similar to a VK one, i.e. it's hooked. Do you guys always do it like that? I only ask 'cos John's saying the hook version is only done in the form - the "real" fook is flat with the hand un-hooked and the palm held down, like an upside down tan sau.

Regards

[black and blue]

More often than not, it is hooked. But Chi Sau's a funny thing :)

Depending on my partner's positioning and structure, it can, at times, look flatter. IMO stick, elbow positioning and path of movement and energy are more important than conforming to a hand position that corresponds directly to the Fook shape in SNT.

While we do practise Poon Sau and Chi Sau stationary (in YCKYM), we spend more time doing so with movement (footwork). This means positioning is ever altering. I guess I'm saying Fook Sau has many faces, but its general structure and path of energy remains the same.

Your profile says you've been training for seven years. I've only been training for two... I should be asking you the questions!
:D

[e-Warrior]

Well black and blue, I may have trained for 7 years but I may not be as far advanced in the system as you. For example, I haven't done the second form yet. This is because I had a long break from training and two years of that 7 was spent revising. Only recently have I managed to go beyond where I left off. So you could say I've only trained for 5 years. However, I'm not too far from the end of the 6th grade so that second form (learnt in the seventh grade) is in sight...

[black and blue]

... that I am not advanced in my Wing Chun - I think I actually have the ability to regress. I sometimes feel I get worse as time passes, LOL. :)

I've been taught the motions for CK, but in class when we're doing the forms people at my level spend most time on SNT and a little on the first section (first third) of CK.

Does your Sifu ever give demos? As far as I know he's the only Yip Man student teaching in the UK... would like to seem him do his thing some time.

[e-Warrior]

I don't think Sifu Kan does too many demos. He seems to be afraid of giving away the system which is a bit daft since people aren't going to learn much from watching you demonstrate something. As you know, you have to be taught by someone to learn properly.

What I must say is that this forum is a much better experience than the VTAA. It looks better, the technology is better and faster, the people here know a thing or two and there ain't no trolls. :)

[foolinthedeck]

just dont tense it!!

if your elbow is quality, and your wrist touches... then all is well, tense the forearm at all because of hooking the hand and no song.

[foolinthedeck]

i just thought of something while at work yesterday.

hold your hand out in a tan - thats fine palm up, relaxed.
now turn it over, if the palm faces downwards parrelel to the floor and the elbow is in then the twist on the forearm makes it tense, the only way for the forearm to be relaxed is if either:
1. the elbow is out
2. relax the wrist forming a light hook

if the hook is tense though then there is no change in the forearm tension.

try it.

[e-Warrior]

Now I think of it, foolinthedeck, Sifu Kan's fook might be classed as "flat" or at least a mixture of hooked and flat. When he does chi-sau his hands are flopping all over the place and it's the same with the senior students too. Think the idea is they've mastered the so called correct version and now they can "get away" with being relaxed. I would somewhat agree with what you said in your first post by saying that it's the contact points that are important in this things during application.

However, in the forms, our fook is always hooked. AND we tense the three blocks (tan, wu, fook) in the first section of the SNT. But now I'm drifting onto other subjects.

[foolinthedeck]

it may be slightly off topic e warrior,
but...

AND we tense the three blocks (tan, wu, fook) in the first section of the SNT

what do you mean blocks? tan fook and wu sau are not blocks. are they? i never 'blocked' anything with my fuk. and you tense them? in the first section of little idea?

is this because of what danny connor wrote? - apparently he mistranslated relaxed as tense and yip chun was not a happy bunny..

i agree the fuk in the form should be hooked, but not tensely, as for the seniors hands flopping all over the place, i would agree that this is a mark of having 'mastered' the fuk. it also serves to confuse tense opponents in chi sau.

[e-Warrior]

what do you mean blocks? tan fook and wu sau are not blocks. are they? i never 'blocked' anything with my fuk. and you tense them? in the first section of little idea?

Perhaps I should have said "techniques" rather than blocks although I would say that wu and tan are blocks. But then you could say fook blocks because it controls the person's arm. Depends what you mean by block I guess.

Remember that some schools tense the arm in the first section. Others don't. We're one of those that do. Don't know how this particular difference come about. Perhaps it deserves a thread of its own.

[foolinthedeck]

ok but why do you tense?
i'll tell you why i relax: because i'm training the elbow energy, and i must cultivate it like a gardener, using a stick to guide it is fine, but to tie string to the end of a plant and pull it in order to make it grow wont work. tension wont develop sensitivity, which seems to be pretty crucial to wing chun even if you feel that structure is more important. actually i dont tense in any part of my wing chun on purpose.

so why do you tense?

[pseudoswitch]

Strengthens the elbow joint, tricep and bicep tendons. It's a qigong aspect.

[e-Warrior]

pseudoswitch has the answer. The tension conditions the muscles and tendons around the joints. This gives rise to a relaxed "tension" ie springy resistance. If someone punches and you block with tan sau very quickly there is not much time to tense things but this exercise will mean there will still be some resistance and the block won't collapse (hopefully!). It also means you can be sort of tense but still able to flow into other techniques.

I also have a little theory that it also builds chi. Basically, the tension causes energy to shut down in that side of the body, causing more to flow in the other side. Then you switch over.

I can see what you're saying concerning relaxing and sensitivity. In my opinion I think people get a little over obsessed with being soft etc. all the time. Tension/hardness is not always bad. I believe it has its uses in the right context.

[Mr Punch]

You can't strengthen tendons, or condition them (if you mean changing their density). You're probably right about the muscles though.

Not sure about you chi theory e-warrior (the improvement of the flow in one side through tensing the other side)... but there are some hard chigungsters who would say that you can develop chi through tensing itself.

[foolinthedeck]

ehhh?
hard qigong is hard qigong, thats another matter.

but the first part of siu lim tao tense, if i may dissect the answer.

pseudowitch:

Strengthens the elbow joint, tricep and bicep tendons. It's a qigong aspect

ok so its strengthens it, i cant deny that! or as mat said the muscles not tendons.. but why do it in slt? why not just lift weights of something else that will do the same.

ewarrior:

This gives rise to a relaxed "tension" ie springy resistance

tension gives rise to relaxed tension? now thats something i would like to see - honestly i may seem sarcastic but how does it give rise to it? i would have thought that tension would beget tension, in my exp thats the case.


block with tan sau

what do you mean block with tan sau? just come to the centre or chasing his hands? sometimes its necessary as a last resort to be off centre but mostly not.


there is not much time to tense things but this exercise will mean there will still be some resistance and the block won't collapse

ok so theres no time to tense, but i would argue that you dont want to, or they will use your tense tan against you, if u assume the punch is more tense then i suppose its cool, but it might not be.. and do your tans collapse?
my relaxed tans dont collapse because they have good positioning in the centre, good footwork and foundation in stance, and just come to centre and become stikes.


It also means you can be sort of tense but still able to
flow into other techniques.

ok, so still i'd say u dont want to be tense but u do so thats ok, but i never saw anything that is tense 'flow', flowing is a relaxed movement at least it has to be if your opponent is more relaxed than you.


I also have a little theory

ok cool, nice theory, but as you said its a theory. if tension does build chi then by all means tell everyone who is doing relaxed qigong, daoyin, taji, xingyi, baguazhang etc etc that they are doing it wrong. seems strange that none of them know this...

sorry if i sound *****y...


I think people get a little over obsessed with being soft etc. all the time. Tension/hardness is not always bad. I believe it has its uses in the right context.

i'd like to meet more people obsessed with being soft!!! LOL, most spring boxers i know are so so tense.

on the last point i agree with you 110% context is key, all i am arguing is that the first part of siu lim tao is the wrong context.

[e-Warrior]

Doing weights won't exercise the right muscles in the right way I would say.

Perhaps "relaxed tension" is the wrong phrase. Basically what I mean is that during application there is some tension but not so that you're bursting blood vessels. What I have noticed is that all this SNT training has conditioned my joints so that just a little tension gives rise to a fairly solid block. But the arm is still quite loose.

Well tan sau is actually a block. I'm thinking more of a hook or untrained punch. At VKCVT we drill the Tan to block punches to the head (the tan is here higher than in the form).

It is of course difficult to explain these things in words. I'm in danger of giving the impression that VK's students are all tensed up, which is not true.

Guys who do taiji etc. are not of course wrong. There are two approaches to chi exercises. There's the relaxed, "water method" way. I do some of that as a suppliment to the Wing Chun. But there are also "fire method" approaches where tension is used to build energy. I think SNT falls into the latter category. Not totally sure how it works since tensing is supposed to impede chi flow but I think there may be something in my idea that tensiing a part of the body somehow increases the flow elsewhere.

I would say that SNT is the right context for tension. These forms are, after all, a form of drill or exercise. By the way, what did you mean by "elbow energy" in a previous post?

[black and blue]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ip Chun on Gung Lik (elbow energy)

"The first section of Siu Nim Tao is for training the Gung Lik. To be able to train your Gung Lik you must be slow and serious about it. Gung Lik is elbow energy. Elbow energy is about positioning. The elbow is protecting your body, and at the same time can generate tremendous power for your punch.
"What is Gung Lik? In Chinese terms Gung means that you 'spend a lot of time'. You are achieving a result through a long period of time. A lot of time and effort. The more you do, the more energy you can generate.
"The skill becomes natural over time. Gung Lik has the following requirements: first is accuracy, then steadiness. Keeping it to the same point every time. Thirdly, you have to practice for a long time. In Gung Lik the elbow has to be within the body area and the position has to be correct. The elbow has to be steady. When people do Pak Sau your elbow just stays there. To be able to keep that position you have to practice a lot of Siu Nim Tao.
"When you are practising you have got to be serious about it. The main point is you have got to do a lot of Fook Sau, but not forcing it. If you are always tense and strong you will get used to it so you will find it difficult to relax.
"Sometimes when I play Chi Sau I find their Fook Sau is really tense, possibly because when they do Siu Nim Tao they actually tense up. If you deliberately force the Fook Sau elbow in, rather than taking a lot of time and effort to train, it is rather like a little plant that you want to grow faster, so now and then you pull up the stem, trying to make it taller. It is the same analogy. Basically it does not help at all."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gung Lik Chi Sau would be, for us at Kamon at least, heavy stick, as opposed to a lighter stick we usually use. But Gung Lik itself is forward elbow energy. Sung (sp?) Lik would be soft energy... something we work on when playing with slow, floating attacks, which are all about smooth, balanced energy and the transfer of power.

[foolinthedeck]

thanks for your elaborations ewarrior.
if u like we can keep the discussion going, although you have described everything very well and in good detail.

i agree that weights wouldnt train us in the right way, so i'm glad we agree on that and your not all out for tension, actually what you said next about 'relaxed tension' may actually be closer to my understanding of relaxation anyway. There will always be tension, i apologise if i assumed that you were talking about the bloodvessel busting tension originally but i have met some s.boxers who do this.

maybe some of our difference of opinion is on whether tan is a block, to me, it has good struture and positioning, when it is in the correct place, it is as you said loose but can 'block' well. it depends whether the tan is being used to come to the centre and make contact there or to block a hook to the head. sometimes a blocking tan is necessary, but normally not. great if your tan is strong enough from your training method to 'block' hooks, but then it was my opinion that wing chun is yielding and not about 'blocking' strength with stregth.... its hard to describe here - we'll have to roll!

black and blue sums up elbow energy very well. in my own words - its relaxed 'song' energy in the elbow, coming forwards in the centre. i'd only disagree woth his concept of using a 'heavy stick' why would you bother if a light stick will do?

[black and blue]

black and blue sums up elbow energy very well. in my own words - its relaxed 'song' energy in the elbow, coming forwards in the centre. i'd only disagree woth his concept of using a 'heavy stick' why would you bother if a light stick will do?

It's good to mix the two, rather like mixing up attacks that slip through gaps and those that blast through a defence using, say Pak Sau. Both hard and soft energy is relaxed, but one is more pressing from the elbow than the other, IMO. Mixing the two has a similar effect to breaking rhythm/timing... messes with your opponent's energy, timing, direction etc.

IMO, you understand. :)

[foolinthedeck]

hmm,
the limitations of these words! i cant tell if your black and blue is my black and blue... colour blind i guess.

either you are like my sifu who keeps trying to get me to change my speed and rhythm by using more speed and lop lap stuff, or you are like those people who rely on pak too much and 'blast' thru a defence.

heres hoping you are the first because then i can agree with you wholeheartedly.

[black and blue]

First things first, for anyone reading this I AM NOT Foolinthedeck's Black and Blue. We've never met, there is no relationship, no holding hands or trips to the Cinema. :D :p

With regards the Chi Sau, I hope to not use Pak Sau too often. It's a good way to move an obstacle, but I'd rather roll, use footwork and shallow angling to try and create a gap or exploit one that my opponent opens themselves... rather than constantly resorting to Pak or Lap.

I do like to use it occasionally, however, as Pak Sau can be a real shock to the system and therefore keeps my opponent/training partner (for the politically correct among us) 'on their toes'.

Yes. Sometimes speed up, sometimes slow down. Slow, floating attacks that change speed (and direction if stopped) are something I'm currently working on.