Leg training on a summer's eve

[Alpha Dog]

Anyone do any specific exercises to train the legs for strength, distance, timing, balance, position?

[anerlich]

One legged squats .... because I CAN.

[Mr Punch]

On a summer's eve I like to drink beer.

I'll try it on one leg.

[Wingman]

specific exercises to train the legs for:

strength - one-legged SLT
- squat, then stand up & kick
- kneeling horse (kwai ma)

distance - you need a partner. Face each other & hold each other's foream. Take turns kicking each other in the abdomen. WC practitioners should be able to kick at such short distance. Of course, you don't kick your partner for real. The kick should just barely make contact.

timing - jumping rope

balance - one-legged SLT, chi gerk

position - what do you mean by "position"? Maybe you could use a dummy. There are kicking/leg techniques in the dummy form.

[reneritchie]

Prithee, forasmuch as thou dost covet the mightiest legs 'pon life run thee hither and yon as though against the prevailing winds; pounce thee like the nimble leopard in search of pray, and rise and fall thee with but one leg on the most precarious of wobbled surfaces.

And then, as cruel summer sun doth slide once more beneath the gentle blanket of night, rest thee merry and content in the knowledge that all of faery doth wonder what the puck thou hast been doing.

[Alpha Dog]

Are you quoting A Midsummer Night's Gerk?

[reneritchie]

Amid somes Dim, perhaps, but I am a bit of a Gerk.

[rubthebuddha]

snt on one leg is grand. you can work the balance in two ways

- put your free leg behind your plant leg and rest the ankle behind the knee/calf. your free knee should be pointing to the side and down.

- put your free leg out in a chambered kick/yap gerk position.

[fa_jing]

This question is really gay, but how many one-legged squats are y'all doing? I ask because I recently began training them after several months of concentrating on regular Hindu squats. The comparison is simply for motivation purposes.

Currently I'm doing 5 sets of 5 each leg, with 5 minutes rest between each set. Last time I busted out a 6th rep on the last set.

I've tried it holding a 15 pound dumbell, and was still able to do five reps.

Training in this manner is like a power-lifting regime - shouldn't add too much mass to your leg because the emphasis is on the concentric rather than the eccentric part of the motion. That's also why I take 5-minutes rests between sets.

[anerlich]

I'm doing sets of about 5 reps.

If anyone wants to work up to these I found this reference really good:

http://www.intensitymagazine.com/02-26-02/mike_mahler.html

[fa_jing]

I find the one-legged squats to be a great exercise, and on the last rep I really concentrate on the hanging leg, trying to extend it outwards as much as possible while raising up. This does tire the top of the quads, so I have to wait about 20 seconds before I do the other leg. It seems that it would translate very well to the Wing Chun kicking motions, especially the front kick obviously. Good for balance, too. The only thing is, I have to be carefull with my left knee because my kneecaps (patella) don't track correctly, so I maintain the tension in the standing leg even at the bottom of the motion, and don't go down the last one or two inches, which is working so far. BTW - sets of 5 with a 55 pound kettlebell like Mr. Mahler does is very impressive - I figure that a one-legged squat doubles the weight compared to a bodyweight squat, in other words if you weigh 180 pounds, it's like doing a full squat with two legs and 180 pounds on your shoulders, only you are also working your abs some, and your hip flexors and the top of your other leg, and without the strain across your shoulders of supporting extra weight. Furthermore if you increase your bodyweight by holding onto a 15 pound dumbell, again it doubles and is the same as holding 30 pounds and doing a full-range two-legged squat. Mr. Mahler, who weighs 195 is thus doing the equivalent of a two-legged squat with 195 + 2 x 55 = 305 pounds, pretty darn good.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by anerlich
I'm doing sets of about 5 reps.

If anyone wants to work up to these I found this reference really good:

http://www.intensitymagazine.com/02-26-02/mike_mahler.html
Thanks for the great link!!!

[KingMonkey]

Never done these before..... I can squat about 225 lbs pretty comfortably. Doing the math (I weigh 170 lbs) I thought I should be able to handle these. I quickly had a try in the bathroom at work.:p Quite hard I must say. I felt a lot of strain in my knee joint and I didnt even try to go all the way down, I just went until the thigh was parallel. Hmmm may give these a try but I'm worried they could damage my knee.

[reneritchie]

Re: SLT on one leg. A hybrid I took from physio when I had to rehab major ankle damage a couple years ago is to write out the alpabet with the hanging leg. Makes it a wee bit more challenging.

[yylee]

just wondering:

any one knows why in YM SNT (not sure about YKS's), we open the stance by lining up the feet in a straight line; so heels are against each other, toes pointing outwards. After this we put weight and pivot on the toes and turn into a pigon toe stance?

Is there any significance to this opening?

sounds like RR has a heat stroke, from the summer sun shine? or from the Montreal girls? :) :) :)

[rubthebuddha]

as far as i know, it's just meant to open the stance up to proper width and positioning. but i also find it handy for a quick opening/closing of the hips before i get set in my stance -- just for the sake of looseness.

[reneritchie]

For beginners it gives a simple way to measure horse width. For later students, it gives the basic toe-out and toe-in steps.

And the girls haven't been out in their usual numbers lately. Must be hiding from Burnsy...

[yylee]

Hi RR, rubthebuddha

I believe it has more to do with stretching some key muscles on the legs or loosening the pelvic-leg joints rather than measurement. I don't think we need to go all the way till feet in one line for width measurement.

Any qigong significance you think?

[reneritchie]

Again, toe-in, toe-out steps are very important later for application. Hei Gung doesn't seem to have been a focus for WCK, other than as part of the collective martial tradition (like philosophy, TCM, etc.) that pervaded the culture. I think you and Hendrik were discussing Hei Gung and that context on another thread.

The best anology I can give is this: You can have a Porche or a Hummer. Both are excellent but have different, sometimes mutually exclusive requirements. If you try to build something inbetween you will lose what makes both great.

Likewise, certain body alignments and mechanics suit the demands of fighting while others give benefit to Hei/Noi cultivation, and some of those alignments/mechanics are mutually exclusive.

So, while you can own both a Porche and a Hummer, and you can train both WCK and HG, you can't always easily do both at the same time.

[KingMonkey]

Guys,

Have you found that doing this sort of training has helped your kicking. I ask because my kicking is weak despite being able to squat a reasonable amount of weight. Basically I've got plenty of slow muscle but not much fast, twitch muscle. Have you noticed significant gains in explosive power from the leg work you've done or are the benefits more in terms of rootedness and stability ?

[reneritchie]

Balance and general leg strength. For explosive kicking, the only thing I've found that really works is kicking, especially kicking something substantial (dummy, pad, etc.) just to keep the joints healthy.

[fa_jing]

I think the biggest key to strong kicking is proper mechanics. The best way these mechanics can be trained, IMO, after the basics have been drilled sufficiently in the air, is to kick an airshield held by your partner who is moving slowly around the room. Try to get your weight behind the kick and uproot your partner if possible. This is also very good exercise for your legs.

Further exercises towards strength development should help your kicking power, but only moderately and slowly. I'm training my legs because I like to train my legs, most of all.

[anerlich]

any one knows why in YM SNT (not sure about YKS's), we open the stance by lining up the feet in a straight line; etc.

Who's WE, sucka?

I do YMWC and don't start the form like that. I do the two circling steps. And I don't use a pigeon toed stance either.

As for that being an exercise to mobilise the hips and legs, it is not exactly efficient for purpose. The circling steps would be slightly better, but not much.

If WC was ever a system of health cultivation or physical culture, highly unlikely IMO, it must have been strictly third-rate.

It's just to get into the stance. Why does everything have to have some deep significance to you guys?

[Alpha Dog]

Are these leg exercises taught to you guys in class, did you pick them up elsewhere (excluding YGKYM), or did you just invent your own exercises? I'm just curious because legs are the foundation of your structure, yet what gets talked about all the time is upper-body/arms stuff.

[yylee]

Originally posted by anerlich
etc.

I do YMWC and don't start the form like that. I do the two circling steps. And I don't use a pigeon toed stance either.



perhaps Andrew and I We shall have a clear distinction between the YM M(oodified) side and YM T(radissshhhhhenal) side of his personality :D Next time I will say YMMWC SNT for sure ;)

[sel]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Guys,

Have you found that doing this sort of training has helped your kicking. I ask because my kicking is weak despite being able to squat a reasonable amount of weight. Basically I've got plenty of slow muscle but not much fast, twitch muscle. Have you noticed significant gains in explosive power from the leg work you've done or are the benefits more in terms of rootedness and stability ?

i experienced something interesting. i had a knee injury which prevented me doing any kicking for about six months. i was pretty much restricted to doing sil lim tao (even chum kiu and bil gee was forbidden during that time)
when i started kicking again i had improved tremendously, kicking much more powerfully than before. i have to assume it was due to an improved stance (rootedness and stability).

[Stevo]

What about cycling?

[kj]

Originally posted by sel
i experienced something interesting. i had a knee injury which prevented me doing any kicking for about six months. i was pretty much restricted to doing sil lim tao (even chum kiu and bil gee was forbidden during that time)
when i started kicking again i had improved tremendously, kicking much more powerfully than before. i have to assume it was due to an improved stance (rootedness and stability).

Good observation. It's amazing how much Wing Chun training can help one's Wing Chun.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Alpha Dog]

That's my question KJ: what are typical WC leg training exercises?

[canglong]

Run up the hill every Friday

[Mr Punch]

I do this a lot.

Open.

Close.

Fast.

Slow.

Alone.

With somebody else's knee outside/inside mine.

In chi sao.

In sparring.

From a triangle entry.

From huen bo.

It seems to have an application, Anerlich, no?;)

[Mr Punch]

On a summer's eve I even like to do it with a beer...:D

[mun hung]

Besides the usual squats, etc. - Do any of you do any hip exercises or hip streches for kicking?

IMHO - leg squats are good, but I think learning how to use your hips in your kicks is more important.

[fa_jing]

I think Wing Chun 5 kicks drill is certainly a taxing exercise for you hip flexors, and promotes flexibility specifically for our kicks.

Throw many reps of kicks along with stance-shifts will also help you to use your hips correctly.

[KingMonkey]

Can you describe this 5 kicks drill in a little more detail?

[fa_jing]

First when you are learning it, you practice the kicks individually using the exchange step and advancing. Then you combine them all as follows: Stand in your Bai Jong stance, lift the front knee (1), then stomp kick (2), front kick (3), side kick (4) then jut gerk (5), which brings your foot back down. Repeat 5 or 10 times. Then switch legs.

I think most Wing Chun schools have a variation of this drill.

[Alpha Dog]

How to get these? Any ideas?

[mun hung]

Steel implants? :p

Actually, this could be interesting. Let's hear more.

[Alpha Dog]

Can occasional dowel use over the shins calcify them to the extent that they become rock-solid or only cripple you?