Why do advanced students quit training?

[Judge Pen]

I actually stopped training for about 5 years after reaching black sash; however, I thought I had good reasons at the time. When I started training again, I realized that it was a huge mistake and I regretted the time that I lost. Do you all have any thoughts as to why some students suddenly stop after they start to reach a certain level of proficiency?

[Robinf]

Boredom.

Ego.

[MasterKiller]

One of the senior students that trains with me has been missing a lot of class lately because he is bored, which comes from a lack of motivation to learn new things, so he feels like he has nothing to practice.

However, I tell him that even if he doesn't want to learn new weapons or forms, we all still have to improve the stuff we already know. He should be practicing his core sets and techniques. But he's got no interest in improving things he already knows pretty well.

[Dark Knight]

Chicks, they kill everything

[apoweyn]

I think a lot of schools fail to push the envelope past black belt (sash, etc.) Students can continue to do the same things that got them to the black belt. And there's certainly value in that. But too often, schools don't really have a plan beyond that.

I'm not talking fancy new kicks or special forms or anything. But schools often don't even intensify sparring, introduce more freestyle drills, etc.

When I got my black sash, I moved on to another school too. Why? Because my training at that school translated into "show up, teach the classes, and go home." And while you can learn a lot from teaching, you learn a lot from training too. That's the attitude that gets you to the black belt. And it needs to be sustained afterward.

So it's either that OR the fact that we put so much flipping emphasis on the black belt in the first place that once you get it, there's a feeling of disillusionment. No new worlds to conquer and yet... no 'glow' either. Some people find that disheartening.

My good friend got his black belt when we were in high school. I'll never forget him telling me "yeah, I feel exactly like I did yesterday." He never quit. In fact, he ran a school of his own for years. But that demystification of the black belt shakes a lot of students into quitting, I think.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

in America I think it is our MTV attention spans. Some arts take a lifetime to perfect but many americans see getting that black belt as "finishing" the system
Sometimes, what advanced students need to do is take the time to get out and train with other people who study the same art, or even different arts.
Some people just lose interest

[Merryprankster]

Interesting. Most BJJ BBs KEEP training. I've only known one that doesn't.

[Royal Dragon]

That's because they compete. There's motivation and comaraderie there.

[KC Elbows]

I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards.

It's pretty much a stereotype, but too many black belts are meaningless, because too many schools churn them out. So, when the student realizes that they've not made comprehensive strides in their fighting ability by that time, they decide to move on or leave the arts.

It's like bad tequila. After finishing a bottle, most sane people will either buy better tequila, or quit drinking tequila.

Then, you're gonna get people who get there, and decide it's not for them.

And then there's people who are happy with what they've achieved at that point. I know some who did this who still practice what they learned, ten years later. They got what they came for, chop it up to them being smart customers.

[shaolinboxer]

I think a lot of it has to do with simple maturity. As we train we set certain goals for ourself, and then try to balance them against our daily lives. I think as we get older often we fill some of the personal voids that martial arts training was intended to fill, making it less intensely necessary. Often I see people quit because they feel like only one type of training is valid (often "hardcore training"), instead of realizing that kung fu is a lifetime activity that can be enjoyed on many different levels. It's not such an all or nothing thing, and I think that many instructors are guilty of portraying it as such. As we age our training needs to change, just as our bodies change, our minds change, and our roles change.

[rogue]

I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards. That's very honest KC.:p

We loose a lot at black belt but retain people who get to 1st degree. The highest belt we have outside of our schools master is 3rd maybe 4th degree and that's after 15+ years of study. So you need something else driving you besides chasing after a stripe.

[Robinf]

Some excellent, honest replies.

Many schools don't offer anything that is advanced beyond the black belt. Often, students are left to their own devices to make their training advance once they get to the black belt.

Taekwondo has it spelled out what makes up each degree rank and gives you something to strive for and guidelines to follow. That might be one of the reasons there are so many Taekwondo black belts beyond the first degree.

Students need direction. Even teachers need direction for themselves as they should still be students of their own art. This is difficult to do and sometimes the instructor becomes uninspired. That is also a time when senior students leave--when the instructor stops leading.

[MasterKiller]

That might be one of the reasons there are so many Taekwondo black belts beyond the first degree.

Of course, dishing out BBs to 10 year-olds doesn't help, either.

[apoweyn]

Because it's worth repeating:


That is also a time when senior students leave--when the instructor stops leading.


Stuart B.

[KC Elbows]

Rogue, isn't it bad enough that you trolled me to the point where my space bar is now broken, now you have to cast aspursions on my belt?

It's just like that one member who used to come here but doesn't anymore said. All the good martial artists leave. I think it was Ralek who said that.

[[Censored]]

It's like bad tequila. After finishing a bottle, most sane people will either buy better tequila, or quit drinking tequila.

Bingo. Given the shallow and/or poorly structured teaching of most MA schools, I would sooner ask "why don't MORE people quit?"

Or, we can just blame the "lazy Americans". :rolleyes:

[Starchaser107]

Although this term is usually in reference to male & female relationships and commitment issues , I'm going to coin it in regard to this particular subject.
Although this isnt always the case , I find that most of the posts thus far indicate a problem with the school and NOT with the individial themselves.
While it's easy ( and probably correct ) to say that people become unmotivated by repetitious routine , boredom due to lack of new material, teaching instead of learning or whatever the case. It comes down to the Student who ultimately makes the decision to leave in the end.
I find that the martial arts relationship is like a relationship one would have with thier spouse. Some people are flighty and cannot commit to one art, they bounce from school to school sort of playing the field. Others stick within thier art but can appreciate the goodness that other arts may have to offer, While others never venture outside of thier art at all.
To answer this post I think why Advanced students Quit , might be something more akin to what people describe as the 7 year itch, ( some say 5 , ive hear 3 as well) but it all boils down to the same thing. And there are many reasons for this. It could be curiousity, it could be a sense of disillusionment , could be one feels that there is something better out there. whatever it is. It usually kicks in after a certain period of time, and it depends on the individual wether or not they stick with it or not.
Peace.

My 2 cents (not worth much on the world market )

[apoweyn]

Starchaser,

Yeah, the student is definitely a part of it. That's related to the disillusionment I mentioned. If a student can't then find their own reasons to continue training, their own motivations, then they might quit.

Of course, if a student does formulate their objectives and motivations, they may well decide that their current school isn't the environment to pursue them. Another reason to leave.


Stuart B.

[Dark Knight]

Interesting. Most BJJ BBs KEEP training. I've only known one that doesn't.

Apo made a good comment, many schools dont push beyaond BB, BJJ is different. Mabey thats what lacking once many schools get to BB. You show up, teach a few classes and go to your once a week class.

[Starchaser107]

(Apoweyn) In which case not a thing is wrong with it. If after any given period of time one comes to the realization /turning point where they decide that a particular route is not suitable for thier advancement , then by all means persue what road will offer that.

In all fairness though, I have seen students attain even lesser belts than the "coveted" black sash / belt and believe they've arrived. It's what we've been fed on and I guess it's up to those of us that do know better to try to explain and debunk those myths from early on.
I've experienced the crossroads myself, and i decided it was more worth my while to stay. I had a brief tryst with Capoiera Angola and admittedly , I learned alot from it, however I decided against cross training in the long run, and put all my resources and dedication into my Kung Fu.
Accepting that there will be negative elements no matter where i go. The wise say stick to the evil you know best. My new outlook refueled my desire to train hard , and now once again i feel theres so much more available right where I am.

bless.

[Oso]

"Black Belt/Sash" is certainly overemphasized as a pinnacle to reach for.

It's a good achievement but I think there can be an anti-climactic effect unless the instructor has something more to offer. An instructor has to lead w/o a doubt. I will say this about my sifu and his system: there was a world of stuff to learn after the first black sash. I stayed for another 5 years after that because I wanted to teach and didn't think that what I knew at 1st black was even close to being enough.

But, I have seen many fall by the wayside. Some in our school were daunted by the information there was afterwards. The required lists for 2nd and 3rd were substantially larger than for 1st. This, I know got to a couple of guys. The list for 3rd was, item for item, larger than all the individual lists put together for white to 1st black. A bit daunting unless you meant business.

Isn't there some old saw about out of 100 students, 10 are destined to be great and of those 10 only 1 to teach....or something like that.

:) ok, so does anyone else ever get tempted to finish their posts with a "No-Know-ism" That guys gettin' into my brain, he's just so **** cool !!

[rogue]

A friend of mine got his BB last year and thought the secrets of the universe would open up to him. Guess what happened.

[ZIM]

Same universe, no secrets, different day.

Not everyone wants to teach.... I certainly never want to. I can't say I even understand the appeal, really. [well, maybe a little, but...]

Maybe there's a pattern of different plateaus that MAs go through...green belt syndrome [i know it all- just ask!], brown belt-itis [will this work? i'm gonna go pick a fight], Black belt malaise, etc.

Random no-know ism for Oso: some whoever might say-ish, this or that one... whatever whatever. ;)

[rubthebuddha]

i didn't think most BJJ schools pushed beyond a BB, simply because a BB is a dang hard thing to get in BJJ (kidding ;)). compare it to mcdojo, at which you can get your BB a couple years with maybe a couple days each week of class. most of the BJJers i know of have been practicing for several years and still only have maybe their second or third belt.

that's probably why out of any belt-based style, i'd put my money on a BJJer, just because it seems it takes a ****load more work for them to get to that level.

i'm reminded again of the legend of how the term black belt came about. those who were new got a fresh, white belt. those who had practiced for a while had a dirtier belt, because they had been knocked down and rolled around a bit. those with a even darker belt had seen an even greater share and could really apply their stuff.

and, of course, if your belt was so dirty it was pretty much black, then it was obvious that you had been at it for many years and were worthy of what you had.

i don't know how true this adage is, but two years is nowhere near enough time to get your black belt, especially if you're not getting knocked down in the dirt enough by those better than you to learn how to really use your stuff.

[Ben Gash]

Often it reaches a point when you spend more time teaching juniors than learning stuff in a class you've paid for. This is especially a problem in schools with few senior grades.
Of course my other Sifu periodically gets PO'd with his black belts and kicks half of them out :D

[Black Jack]

Because they found the glow.

[joedoe]

[Wild Generalisation]

I think the problem is that for many students the black belt is the pinnacle of martial learning, while in reality it is when the real learning begins. Up until the black belt, you are only getting your foundations right. After black belt, you start to really learn the art.

[/Wild Generalisation]

[Laughing Cow]

I think it has do with reaching preset goals and reaching training plateaus.

I know many MA that worked hard to reach their 1st BB and similar and than realised that for a few years they neglected their jobs and Family for that strip of cloth.

Simialr thing when you hit a plateau, advancement gets tougher and people tend to reevaluate their situation/priorities vs the extra effort to go past the plateau.

A good Sifu and fellow students are the most important thing to get one past those stage.

Cheers.

[monkey mind]

OK, I don't know if I've qualified as an "advanced" student but if people are talking about McDojo BB's then I feel like I can throw in my two cents.

In the past I've trained hard & stopped two times. I always had ready, practical excuses but I also knew in the back of my head what the real reason was - not that my teacher wouldn't/couldn't lead or that I got disillusioned but that I found myself not ready to deepen my training to the level that was required to advance. For my first couple of years, I worked out hard, practiced diligently, got in good shape & developed some skill. But then I faced my own limitations & the demands that REAL training would make on me - in terms of time, as well as the physical, psychological & other obstacles I would have to overcome. I consider these aspects of MA training to be, for me, the core of the enterprise and I wasn't ready to take that on. It's not that I expected the secrets of the universe but I could glimpse a few secrets about myself & sometimes those ain't so easy to face. Anyway, I've been back in training for 4 solid years now & this time I'm feeling better prepared to dive in deeper, but I can still see the old reluctance creeping up at times.

I can't be the only one who's had this experience?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

im suprised no one has said that sometimes the student is simply ready to move on. it happens.

even if there's more the teacher could teach, the student would be better off learning from someone more advanced that could answer their questions better and get their progress moving at a steady pace again.

[Laughing Cow]

GDA.

I think the threaf is about students that quit MA, not about students changing Kwoon or Sifu.

Many stop with the intent of not taking it up again, some are called back to training but the majority will never train again.

This I think is not just confined to MA but to any type of activity that takes a fair bit of commitment.

Cheers.

[apoweyn]

Starchaser,

Absolutely. Well said.


Stuart B.

[Robinf]

Also, a lack of patience. A lot of students come in wanting to learn everything in one night. Try to spread it out over time, and they get impatient.

In my kung fu, it's supposed to take about 9 years until you're considered ready for "black belt." But, how many people are will to invest nine years as "an underling" and then be considered advanced after that time?

[shaolinboxer]

"In my kung fu, it's supposed to take about 9 years until you're considered ready for "black belt." But, how many people are will to invest nine years as "an underling" and then be considered advanced after that time?"

I think this speaks to part of the problem. Rank is as much about socialization as it is about talent. After a while, mnay people see their upcoming rank as a final step on a social ladder...they will no longer be considered an "underling". This affects their sense of personal identity, and then there is no longer any real need for training.

THis is an unfortunate side effect of the confucian social structure.

[MasterKiller]

Often it reaches a point when you spend more time teaching juniors than learning stuff in a class you've paid for.

Senior students at my school don't pay tuition because they are expected to help teach. I run the kids class twice a week, and help out in the adult classes twice a week, so I have free run of the school and am allowed to work out whenever I want (I have a key).

[Robinf]

That's another thing.

I've found that those who teach stay. Those who don't teach do tend to leave as senior students.

[SaMantis]

For my first couple of years, I worked out hard, practiced diligently, got in good shape & developed some skill. But then I faced my own limitations & the demands that REAL training would make on me - in terms of time, as well as the physical, psychological & other obstacles I would have to overcome. I consider these aspects of MA training to be, for me, the core of the enterprise and I wasn't ready to take that on. It's not that I expected the secrets of the universe but I could glimpse a few secrets about myself & sometimes those ain't so easy to face.

monkey mind, I see where you're coming from. It's a question of, "I'm at a point in my training where, if I really want to succeed at it, I'll have to rearrange my priorities and my schedule to an uncomfortable degree."

I don't have an answer to it because I'm on that exact plateau right now. Getting out of that intermediate level is going to take more commitment and self-discipline than I've had to exert before. In my early 20s, making that commitment might have been easier, but things get more difficult when you're juggling a demanding career, family life, and battling a slowing metabolism. So I can't offer answers, just empathy ... :(

[KC Elbows]

I forgot to mention lack of dedication, although not always in the 'character flaw' sort of way always, just that some people like having punches thrown at them, some have other interests in the long run. In my experience, those who love martial arts will, one way or the other, pursue it in the long run.

I also think that some systems turn 3 years worth of material into twenty. That's one thing I gotta hand to wing chun- it's just the business, nothing else. It should take twenty plus years to come to a really deep understanding of one's system, but, IMO, it shouldn't take twenty years to finally make it through the curriculum so that one can then start to come to that deeper understanding in another twenty years. Too many people take seven principles and hide them in 300 forms. The kicker is, at least with kung fu, that those same principles can be found in more concise systems, so unless you just really like the forms, you're better off finding a system where the principles are taught efficiently. So it becomes a matter of "Am I in love with the art as a fighting style, or as a catalog of forms and applications others have seen in this fighting style?" Neither path is better of worse, again, it comes down to interest.

I have like zero tolerance for new seniors who consider people slackers for finding other interests or not having the same interest in martial arts than they have. It's a total power trip, and a silly one. The martial artist has no power in the modern world, the accountant is superior. I can understand serious schools guiding hobbyists to other schools, but the arrogance some have about this cracks me up.

[ZIM]

What about those styles which hold to the more traditional "no belts, just work" system? This makes me wonder- do they 'vote themselves out' maybe becoz there's no recognition, esp. if its considered arrogant to claim 'mastery' or 'sifu' status?

Sometimes its very hard to measure progress anyway, esp. without such structures as belts... this happens in internal arts to some degree [tho i'm not familiar with all schools, of course!].

[rogue]

What would you do if someone with two months of muay thai came in and defeated every black belt and the schools master? Don't laugh, I've read on the internet that this happens all of the time!:(

[MasterKiller]

I've read on the internet that this happens all of the time

And we all know the internet doesn't lie...:rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

Well, obviously rogue, the only rational response is to leave, find an old dirty drunken teacher in the forest, train under him despite near constant humiliating comments, and return to exact your revenge on the manchu governor, I mean muay thai guy.

[Vapour]

If teacher cannot demonstrate to students that there are lots to learn, students will quit. If the focus of school is to teach katas, let you achieve split and so on, there aren't much to go on once someone reach black belt.

[David Jamieson]

people stop doing what they do for any number of reasons.

one of the reasons that people that get a degree will go through a few levels of a degree until they get a doctorate and then they continue to practice but they aren't studying at the university anymore.

The law of diminishing returns.

A curriculum of Kungfu is not this never ending trail of knowledge that keeps growing and growing. It is a defined amount of material that you learn and refine. Once you refine to a certain point, you keep refining and the learning part is internalized and becomes more of a personal learning journey.

If you never make the leap to the personal journey, you'll just never know kungfu in my personal opinion. Some may agree, some may not. I'd rather have my kungfu develop as part of me instead of me learning how to mimic really really good, over and over and over again.

On the other hand, some people are just lazy and have bloated egos. :D

cheers

[rogue]

Thanks for the kind words KC, and I'm really, really sorry about your space bar.

[bung bo]

i've seen people quit because they got girlfriends. my shrfu said that happened a bit over the years. people have gotten hurt and i think they lose that "hell yeah, let's go to kung fu class" attitude. i don't see how any of my kung fu brothers are sisters could think they "learned it". the oldest student has only been around a few years. we don't have belts or sashes either. i took wado ryu in seventh grade and i've been studying pong lai for only a year and past wado ryu's black belt level. it's a bummer when senior students quit.

[Diamond Dragon]

There are people who quit because they want to do something with the things they learned, like creating their own style or they try to change some of the moves and try to make them more effective. Sometimes it works well, other times it doesn't.

[ddh]

In the beginning, it's all wonder. Then comes the drill - in and out the same thing everyday. After awhile, it gets boring. Then if you keep at it - an upswing where you are learning again. Seems like there are cycles of learning -things sprout as they do in the natural world and cycles of seeding - things are going on deep down but not yet showing signs. The aspects of advancing have to do with these natural cycles. You've got to consolidate before you advance. Sometimes the cycles are quite long - say 4 or 5 years - especially when you are in an advanced position in the training. It's easy to think you should move on to something new. In the end, you often realize you should have stuck with what you were doing. Often, you later see someone in your peer group doing things the way you want to do them but can't. That person stuck with it.
I keep my teacher's imagery in mind on this subject. The training is like a rope holding you bucket of dreams descending into the wellspring of life. If the rope is weak and breaks or too short it will not reach the water deep down. You won't get refreshed. The rope is you training methods and work-out regime. The rope, bucket and well are very old ideas via the I-Ching.

[relax]

do you learn at an university for the rest of your lives?
do you go to high school for more then 4 years?

everything has to have its ends, I'd personally would quit once I started teaching people because then I wouldn't be improving myself as much and to me, that is a waste of my time.

kung fu isn'te verything espically in the modern world, we hardly ever use our self defense when you get older, theres not much use in being a ferioucious fighter at age 35 unless you compete.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by relax
do you learn at an university for the rest of your lives?
do you go to high school for more then 4 years?

everything has to have its ends, I'd personally would quit once I started teaching people because then I wouldn't be improving myself as much and to me, that is a waste of my time.

kung fu isn'te verything espically in the modern world, we hardly ever use our self defense when you get older, theres not much use in being a ferioucious fighter at age 35 unless you compete.

Re: Kung-fu for self defense is like the 9mm I also have at my house. I hope that I never have to use it, but I'll be glad its there if I do.

[dwid]

If your instructor is no longer really instructing you, why keep paying him or her?

It makes perfect sense to quit under such circumstances unless you are sincerely interested in learning to teach and possibly starting a school of your own.

With people who stop practicing completely, they probably think that they will have the internal motivation to practice on their own once they stop going to class and then discover that it's a lot easier not to practice than it is to practice. I know I discovered that...

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Any Chinese martial art is a deep well to draw nourishment and continue to learn from. Some are deeper than others.
It all boils down to either you have commitment, dediction, honor and integrity and sticking with it. Otherwise you fall by the wayside.
Kung Fu is a long road with no end really. it is a journey with many twists and turns. Your Sifu teaches you and guides you so you do not go down a dead ended road. Sometimes the road is covered with mist and you can easily get lost without your Sifu teaching and guideing.

GHD

[dwid]

Sometimes the road is covered with mist and you can easily get lost without your Sifu teaching and guideing.

When you reach the point in your training where your sifu is simply guiding you and no longer instructing you in the material, then an honorable sifu will no longer be charging you money and training will become less formal, as in only visiting your sifu occasionally to perhaps visit socially and ask questions about problems you are encountering in your training.

Also, people tend to put sifus on pedestals. They are just people. Some are very wise, but many are not much older or wiser than their oldest students. To say that people who leave lack integrity is oversimplifying the world of martial arts training at best.

Further, sooner or later, your sifu will die, especially if he or she is significantly older than you (as the wiser sifus tend to be).

All this talk about integrity and discipline is the same old elitist bs that makes people with silk pajamas think they are better than everyone else.

When it comes down to it, there are as many reasons for quitting training as there are people who quit training. Just because it's right for you doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

Believe it or not, some people just come to put a higher priority on spending time with their children than spending time in the kwoon or dojo or whatever.

[Robinf]

Believe it or not, some people just come to put a higher priority on spending time with their children than spending time in the kwoon or dojo or whatever.

Nicely said and quite true. The look on the kids' faces when they do something that impresses their parents and to see the kids so dedicated to helping their parents fills my heart full. The parents, in this respect, allow their child to teach them--we have some good parents.

Some of those kids have become our instructors after years of dedication. The parents still practice, but don't teach. They just love spending time with their kids and have thoroughly enjoyed every moment of the past 10 to 14 years of practicing with their kids.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by dwid


When you reach the point in your training where your sifu is simply guiding you and no longer instructing you in the material, then an honorable sifu will no longer be charging you money and training will become less formal, as in only visiting your sifu occasionally to perhaps visit socially and ask questions about problems you are encountering in your training.

Also, people tend to put sifus on pedestals. They are just people. Some are very wise, but many are not much older or wiser than their oldest students. To say that people who leave lack integrity is oversimplifying the world of martial arts training at best.

Further, sooner or later, your sifu will die, especially if he or she is significantly older than you (as the wiser sifus tend to be).

All this talk about integrity and discipline is the same old elitist bs that makes people with silk pajamas think they are better than everyone else.

When it comes down to it, there are as many reasons for quitting training as there are people who quit training. Just because it's right for you doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

Believe it or not, some people just come to put a higher priority on spending time with their children than spending time in the kwoon or dojo or whatever.

Teaching and guiding mean the same thing...teaching is guiding, guiding is teaching. Solving problems for you is still teaching. It may become less formal when you are an long time inner door student. However, respect and the below are still required.
PJ's have nothing to do with integrity, discipline, honor etc. It is not bs and the lack of these is one of the great ills of our society today.
As for children and learning Kung Fu...one can still do both.
GHD

[joedoe]

Originally posted by relax
do you learn at an university for the rest of your lives?
do you go to high school for more then 4 years?

everything has to have its ends, I'd personally would quit once I started teaching people because then I wouldn't be improving myself as much and to me, that is a waste of my time.

kung fu isn'te verything espically in the modern world, we hardly ever use our self defense when you get older, theres not much use in being a ferioucious fighter at age 35 unless you compete.

It would be a shame if you gave up once you started teaching. Why? Because you learn so much when you teach. It is when you truly start to explore the art for yourself and really start to understand things properly.

[dwid]

Teaching and guiding mean the same thing...teaching is guiding, guiding is teaching. Solving problems for you is still teaching. It may become less formal when you are an long time inner door student. However, respect and the below are still required.

I agree with you on this. However, I guess my point is that sometimes leaving the school and quitting are not the same thing. People have a tendency to have a militaristic allegiance to their particular school or instructor. Depending on someone's goals, leaving the school after reaching a high ranking may be the most sensible thing to do. Everyone has to decide for him or herself when they reach the point that they've learned as much as they need or want to learn from any particular practice or study. Kung Fu is no different. I think a lot of people use their martial arts school to fill some spiritual void in their lives, this need for someone to guide them. Eventually, everybody has to grow up, and growing up means becoming more independent and looking less to others for this kind of guidance. This is the point at which your sifu becomes less of a day-to-day teacher.

It's also this stage that separates the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Lots of teachers aren't really all that wise. It can be very disillusioning to have submitted yourself to someone for several years only to find that once you have a basic grasp of all the material, you aren't all that different from them.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

dw

You have mentioned some good points...but let me add...

Everyone has their faults and weaknesses from Jesus/Buddha to Sifu to students. But hopefully, a student would have found a teacher that does not have too many and that displays considerable wisdom, kindness, generosity and deep knowledge of the art, meditation, healing etc. Being taught and guided when your teacher has a lot to give does not mean that the student is not growing up. Life is a continual growth process (if your not going forward, your going backward)...so one will be a mature adult and continue to learn and be guided in areas where one does not have the knowledge or expertise. The goal of the Sifu afterall is to bring the student to his own level of knowledge and expertise. the student would have already had good character traits such as kindness, generosity, honor, integrity etc, or the Sifu would not have continued to teach him or not have taught him the deeper and more advanced knowledge (separating the chaff from the wheat in students). The Sifu can pass on some of his wisdom...but wisdom usually comes from a combination of being guided and experience.

GHD