The harder they come the harder they fall - true or false?

[Chang Style Novice]

discuss

[red5angel]

When I come harder I sometimes pass out which means sometimes I fall.

[Chang Style Novice]

No, really, I think this is a good topic for conversation.

In theory, a good MA can use his opponent's mass and momentum against him, so someone who comes on like gangbusters is liable to get busted up. Alternatively, most of us are taught to avoid over-committing to prevent this very thing from happening. A lot of the push-hands I've done is heavy on feints and reversals, with each participant trying to lure the other into over-extending himself ('coming hard.')

But in practice it seems like a lot of the time being aggressive and committed is a recipe for overpowering the opponent, and being gentle and tentative leads to defeat.

So what's happening here? What makes the difference?

[Judge Pen]

Certain styles like Tiger and Hsing-I depend on overpowering your opponent with strength and aggression. The difference is they do it with a solid base. Power and aggression can be effective if done appropriately.

If they over commit and are off-balance, then they are easy to redirect and to destroy their technique. It depends on the fighter.

I guess sometimes the harder the come the harder it is to make them fall.

[red5angel]

CSN, I read a good book called "There are no Secrets" can't remember who wrote it. Anyway it was full of taichi wisdom by I believe a guy by the name of Cheng. Anyway, he often spoke of investing in loss. For instance in taichi push hands, don't worry about muscling in to win, stay soft and relaxed.
I think the idea is that drills like that are teaching you how to be so that when someone does come in hard, you can use their momentum against them, or their mass. I think it is a good martial practice, since the untrained person will often over commit, and some arts specialize in this more then others.

[apoweyn]

I'm going to go with 'false.' I think that's one of those martial arts truisms that gets blown way out of proportion. In truth, using an opponent's strength against them is in the little things. He tries to power through a punch, failing to retract it quickly enough and leaving an opening for a quick counter to the body. Or he shifts his balance forward a little bit, getting aggressive, so he takes just enough weight off the other foot for you to sweep it. Small stuff like that.

In contrast to the popular image of people flipping thugs with a simple twist of the wrist, and so on.

I think it's a question of intent. In demonstrations, opponents often charge the practitioner with the intent of charging them. Moving in a certain direction. Being redirected.

In actuality, when the intent is to actually get the practitioner around the waist (or whatever), those moves are infinitely harder to pull off. I'm not going to say impossible. I would LOVE to see it done convincingly.


Stuart B.

[fa_jing]

That was a great movie. Don't you wish he had just reached that ladder on the boat to Cuba? And then there being no bullets in the gun, that was classic.

[GeneChing]

Well I'll keep on fighting for the things I want
Though I know that when you're dead you can't
But I'd rather be a free man in my grave
Than living as a puppet or a slave
So as sure as the sun will shine
I'm gonna get my shadow whats mine

[GreyMystik]

if you consider this maxim to be in relation to "commitment" (meaning how much one "commits" in a maneuver), i would say it is likely true, considering things such as inertia and gravity, etc.
when you put more in, you risk more if it doesn't work out.

[Former castleva]

The harder they come/go/arrive,the harder they may very,very well fall.
But if you consider how it would be more likely to happen in a confrontation setting...then it might very well be contrary.
It would simply require more commitment/skill.
I think one might be more likely to,out of learned habit,oppose rather than redirect.How do most people react when they fall?
Having tripped while jogging in the woods today I found myself landing on my palms,the alternative being my face.
Generally speaking,this may be pretty good and protective and without doubt it is usually found more "natural" to do.
The downside is that if you can´t stand it,you may break your hands or even impale them in a similar setting that I was in.
I hope this analogy is strong enough to be applied to a different setting.

[Shuul Vis]

Well, one of my greatest real life kung fu related experiences was in a mosh pit. I was standing on the outer perimiter of the pit watching the band and this gigantic redneck guy utterly plows me. So i get back up and i stand there and look at him. He comes charging at me again kind of stiff arm style like in football. Only this time i use a kind of turning tan sau to his arm and redirect his juggernaut-like force. He goes flying into a bunch of people and then onto his face. The best part is, this made him so mad that he repeatedly tried to do the same thing to me again and again and again. And each time the same thing happened. It was like a bull fight and i was the matador. It happened so many times, and the guy was so huge compared to me, that people eventually started watching me toss this guy. It was such a rush because i was really just using soft, yielding force so well and it was so easy to send this ogre flying. It was one of my best real life uses of my kung fu skills.

Ill never forget the look on his face after each time i would do it. It just read, "how can this little person be doing this? I bet if i just charge harder this time ill knock this twerp through the wall." And each time he fell harder. So yes, the bigger they are the harder they fall. As long as they are stupid. lol

[Black Jack]

I am going with false. Stronger they are the harder they "often" hit.

Controlled aggression, hitting with hate, forward commitment to the attack, solid phyiscal attribitues......sounds like a good soup to me.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Controlled aggression, hitting with hate, forward commitment to the attack, solid phyiscal attribitues......sounds like a good soup to me.

yeah but not everyone has all the alphabits.

[Chang Style Novice]

What about inside grappling range? Anybody got something to say about that?

[joedoe]

I thought the saying was "The bigger they come the harder they fall"? Anyway, it is like the style X vs style Y debate - it depends on the skills of the individuals in question.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by red5angel
CSN, I read a good book called "There are no Secrets" can't remember who wrote it. Anyway it was full of taichi wisdom by I believe a guy by the name of Cheng.

Cheng Man Ch'ing famous Tai Chi Master. The Book is written Wolf Lowenthal.

[FatherDog]

First of all, the original saying is "The Bigger the Are, The Harder They Fall".

Secondly, it's mostly a myth. It's easy to capitalize if someone comes on so aggressively that they overextend themselves and don't bother with defense. But if someone is throwing punches that don't overextend, don't leave them off balance, and is doing so more aggressively than you are, odds are they will overpower you.

[shaolin kungfu]

Secondly, it's mostly a myth. It's easy to capitalize if someone comes on so aggressively that they overextend themselves and don't bother with defense. But if someone is throwing punches that don't overextend, don't leave them off balance, and is doing so more aggressively than you are, odds are they will overpower you.

Butterbean is a perfect example.

[Serpent]

Does anybody know what Gene was on about?

[shaolin kungfu]

I don't know, but it might have something to do with this (http://www.rathergood.com/meatball/) .


Probably not though.

[Serpent]

Hmmm.

Probably not.

[shaolin kungfu]

I just realised that this thread's topic was worded very badly.

[Serpent]

Yep. And incorrectly.

The principle is sound, however.

[shaolin kungfu]

The principle is sound, however.

That depends on how they "come" as well. There is a difference between over committing(sp) and being agressive. Like with my butterbean example. The guy unleashes hell whenever he fights, but doesn't put himself in a position where he is too vulnerable.

Then again, if butterbean was hit, I doubt it would hurt.

[chen zhen]

if it's a big guy who does'nt know sh!t about fighting, and fights like he's on dope or drunk, and wobbles around, then maybe it would be true.
if it's a big guy who knows how to fight and move correctly, then it's not true.
is'nt that how it is?

[apoweyn]

The title isn't really phrased badly. CSN is just making references to two misconceptions at the same time.

1) The bigger they are, the harder they fall

and

2) Use an opponent's strength against them

Both hinge on the fundamental notion that, somehow, physical strength, aggression, and commitment aren't the advantages that most people consider them to be.

Never is necessarily false. Just grossly exaggerated.


Stuart B.

[fa_jing]

Actually, CSN was quoting a Jimmy Cliff tune. And a movie of the same name. Nothing to do with size.

[Water Dragon]

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

[Chang Style Novice]

Ap and fa-jing are correct. I am aware of the original cliche, but it didn't match the topic I wanted to explore exactly. Also, I am making reference to a Jimmy Cliff movie/album. So is Gene.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I still want to hear from the wrestlers and bjj types about how this principle holds up (if at all) in a groundfighting context.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I still want to hear from the wrestlers and bjj types about how this principle holds up (if at all) in a groundfighting context.

Pretty much the same as I noted. If they're coming on so hard that they're sloppy (wow, that was the worst possible way I could have worded that sentence) then yes, it's easy to take advantage. If they're driving really hard but their form is good, though, it's actually much harder to take advantage than if they were being less aggressive, because they are keeping pressure on you.

[apoweyn]

Fatherdog,


Pretty much the same as I noted. If they're coming on so hard that they're sloppy (wow, that was the worst possible way I could have worded that sentence) then yes, it's easy to take advantage. If they're driving really hard but their form is good, though, it's actually much harder to take advantage than if they were being less aggressive, because they are keeping pressure on you.

This paragraph just gets funnier and funnier after the original euphimism.

:)

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay, but say that you have equivalent skill. I hear all the time about the reason that newbies have trouble in grappling is that they haven't learned how to properly relax when neccesary. Like, isn't it easier to lock a tense limb than a relaxed one? Isn't relaxation often part of the solution to slipping a hold?

[fa_jing]

What if they are coming in hard like this guy?http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/video/wailunchoi_xingyi.mpg

PS. hit "refresh" if it doesn't work the first time.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Okay, but say that you have equivalent skill. I hear all the time about the reason that newbies have trouble in grappling is that they haven't learned how to properly relax when neccesary. Like, isn't it easier to lock a tense limb than a relaxed one? Isn't relaxation often part of the solution to slipping a hold?

Frequently. But relaxation and aggression aren't mutually exclusive.

[Chang Style Novice]

I guess it might be helpful to clarify what I mean by "coming on hard." Unfortunately, it seems to include a lot of different stuff - aggression, forward momentum, body tension, etc. - and so I can't give a real definitive answer to that. On the other hand, I'm not really looking for a definitive answer, just more discussion of the idea.

fa-jing -

Do you think xingyi techniques are especially difficult to redirect? Or do you think that guy in particular is doing a good job of moving so's not to feed his target any counter-moves?

[fa_jing]

Uh, the only time I trained vs. someone using Xing-Yi techs, he was just starting out training in that style. So I don't know. I do know that they are big on the theory of changes, so if you avoid or block one punch and get off of their line, they could prolly flow right into another tech and turn to adjust their angle of attack quickly. Especially someone with the flow demonstrated by Sifu Wah Lun Choi in the clip. I haven't seen too many people move with that kind of surety.

[Vapour]

If someone doesn't know how to root, they have tendency to overextend themselves, hence they will fall hard if someone take advantage of it. If you know how to root and relax, you can hit/takedown/throw as hard as you want.

[Royal Dragon]

"The bigger they are the harder they fall.........IF They fall. "

If not, the "Bigger they are, the harder they can slam you into the pavement."

[Chang Style Novice]

ttt -

And for Pete's sake, I didn't write "bigger" I wrote "harder."

I chose my words carefully, is it asking too much that you read them carefully?

[Black Jack]

I would say the key to getting out of a hold is to hit and keep hitting the guy with everything you got untell he lets go. A good understanding of the mechanics of the hold would help as well.

IMO I have seen a number of traditional martial artist schools practicing defenses against grabs/holds in a manner that I find unrealistic for non-dojo work.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, sorry, my bad.

"The harder they are the harder they fall.........IF They fall. "

If not, the "harder they come, the harder they can slam you into the pavement."

Is that better?

[Chang Style Novice]

The best holds/locks are designed to keep that from happening, of course, either by keeping unlocked limbs far away from the guy doing the locking or by permitting a quick fight-ending break to the locked limb if the guy tries any funny stuff. But now we're going back to the "how to get out of an armbar" thread.

[Chang Style Novice]

:D Much better, RD.

[Black Jack]

IMO joint manipulations are a important element but in certain formats overrated and often very over complicated in terms of application.

The thing is joe blow on the street is not going to know the best tactical holds and locks for streetfighting or a better way to say it is he often might not know the best method of application for certain holds and locks.

But he will know brute strength and often follow through with the holds he slaps on you. Something you don't often see in training schools because they don't look at the hold from a street perspective.

People really are not going to just sit their and grab your out-stretched wrist....who grabs a wrist like that anyway....they are not going to just bearhug you and whisper sweet nothings in your ear.....or head lock you and pick your nose while a person does a lighting fast chin na joint lock on them.