Pole Shaking Anyone?

[patriot]

http://members.rogers.com/chen2/poleshaking.mov

[foolinthedeck]

shouldnt this post specify that its just a link with absolutely no flier? sorry but thats so broing i'm not going to click the link.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
its just a link with absolutely no flier?

What do you mean by this ? no flier ?

[RAF]

Good post Patriot. One of the simple "secrets" that few are willing to do on a consistent basis. Doesn't look like much until you try to incorporate into jiben gong training and do it along with other training. Forms are only one of many parts in a system.

Thanks for the post.

[Mojo]

I agree. Thanks for the vid.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Pole-shaking is a standard in my training.. the benefits are too numerous to mention here.. but, if you want to understand connectivity from ground to application, pole-shaking will illuminate the connections nicely.. not to mention the "whip" of the pole illustrates the quality of your FaJing...

Be well..

[woliveri]

Looked similar to spear movements in kung fu.

I have not heard of this in Taiji.

Is it common?

[RAF]

http://www.gstaichi.org/articles.html

Tai Chi Big Spear

Tai Chi Big Spear is also known as Tai Chi Staff and Tai Chi 13 Spear Set. It is a 10 foot long weapon included in the Tai Chi Chuan system's weapon armory. It is made from a springy wood known as 'white wax wood'. The smaller end of the handle is the size of a diameter of a chicken's egg yolk and the larger end's diameter is the size of a duck egg. This weapon is usually reserved for advanced training because it requires more power and body coordination from the practitioner in order to execute its movements correctly. Therefore, Tai Chi Big Spear is not common and most Tai Chi Chuan practitioners today do not know it.
Tai Chi Big Spear has 13 techniques. These 13 . . .


All Chinese martial art styles practice spear thrusting as a solo drill exercise to improve this technique and its destructive ability. It is no different among Tai Chi Chuan practitioners. Because of the spear's weight and size, the Spear thrusting exercise is common among Tai Chi Chuan practitioners as a method to improve one's spear skills as well as to obtain power. It is based on the concept commonly referred to as Fa Jing. A practitioner is ready to engage in this exercise training when one is able to maintain the spear straight away from the body without any problem. During the exercise, when one is thrusting, utilize the whole body so that the power reaches the tip of the spear. The thrust should be in one straight line. This is like shooting an arrow from a bow. Therefore, the forward hand should be stable so it will not miss the target and the back hand should not turn the wrist so that the power is connected and sinks. To prevent any physical injury, one should not thrust too fast in the beginning, rather, one should pay closer attention to the body's coordination and the thrusting motions. Later, one can speed up with experience. If one regularly practices this exercise, one will discharge more power in all strikes, not just when thrusting the spear.

When one is practicing the Tai Chi Big Spear, thrusting forward or backward, the handle should be kept close to the body. This provides a better opportunity for the practitioner to control the spear so that it will not go off to the sides or up and down.

[TaiChiBob]

Hi Bill,

I wouldn't say it's common, not many schools actually scrutinize connectivity.. i only began "shaking the pole" (okay guys stop snickering) about a year ago, but.. the conditioning is excellent, and the way it responds demonstrates the quality of movement you have.. one exercise we do is to hold the fat end with both hands about 18" apart and press the other against a Muay Thai heavy bag (so that when you rotate your waist the side of the pole moves the heavy bag).. using only slow leg and waist movement scrutinize the connections and see which produces the most effect on the bag with the least effort.. another powerful exercise is to grasp the pole in a similar manner and extend your arms in front at about shoulder height, then using only waist and legs move the pole back and forth until it begins a whipping movement.. try to maintain the whipping action as long as you can.. this will tire you quickly (good conditioning, though).. I am using a Chinese Waxwood pole about 8' long, 2" at one end and 3/4" at the other.. i also hold the pole with one hand near the DanTien, the other about 2' out along the pole, then with the out-reached hand cause the far end of the pole to draw circles in the air.. keep the hand near the DanTien relatively still while coordinating the pole circles with circling the Dantien.. try large and small circles, fast and slow.. it's interesting how well you can connect the DanTien to the pole movements..

Anyway, nice to see you posting.. Be well..

[zguy1]

Chen Zhenglei has a DVD on the Long Pole forms..

check out here : 13 Form Cudgel DVD (http://www.quizk.com/shop/detail.asp?ID=41)

[RAF]

Zguy1:

Could you post the home address of that site?

I think the big pole exercise routine shown in the last issue of Internal Arts Magazine is give by this VCD:

http://www.quizk.com/shop/detail.asp?ID=30

Looks like there is a lot of interesting material on that website.

Thanks.

[zguy1]

hi there

yup this the VCD tile of the CZL long pole routine
http://www.quizk.com/shop/detail.asp?ID=30

and this the DVD title of the CZL long pole routine
http://www.quizk.com/shop/detail.asp?ID=30

The content are the same but the DVD has english subtitles and also include the Double sword routine.

i'm helping to run this quizk site so let me know if u need help obtaining these titles. :)

[RAF]

http://www.taijigongfu.com/molingspear.html

Here is a nice example of one of the "simple" SECRET exercise that will help make a difference in the flavor of your martial arts.

Chen Fake shook it 300 times a day, probably close until the time of his death.

A SECRET that needs to be told and not necessarily sold.

[taijiquan_student]

That looks very similar to the spear that we do.

[RAF]

Yeah, its very similar to some of the baji work and xing yi. I know its not a one-to-one correpsondence of similarity but I think they all have a common root of principles.

12 years ago, I was too dumb to recognize the importance of such a simple looking exercise (also couldn't the depth of the exercise--this can be done slow, with co-ordinated breathing and even elements of heng haa breathing can be incorporated in its practice).

I also know, from Stuart Olson's old tapes that the Yang's big spear training (along with two man training) is similiar.

There are so many things being trained for in the big spear exercises. The only thing I haven't seen is its training usage in Bagua Zhang and from everything I've read and heard, its there too.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

what i noticed about that form on the video presented by the guy who started this thread was that the instructor is doing the form opposite of every spear form i ever learned. for example i was always taught to have the right hand at end of spear while the gentleman demonstrating uses the left.

the poleshaking done is very good because he has a good weapon length. however i only saw an external aspect of the weapon demonstration.

may i assume this is Wu style spear because it doesnt look like yang nor chen to me.

[RAF]

Ma_Xu_Zha

If you are referring to the Mo_Ling clipping, that is from the Chen's system and I am not sure if this is a form or single exercise.

In baji, we don't have a form for our big spear training. Its single postures and we play both sides. There is a two man circle and thrust exercis. The spear form we use is a six harmony spear form.

The first clipping, is from the Chen system, too.

[patriot]

Pole shaking is practised on both sides - left and right. The master, Li Lairen, studied with Zhu Tiencai in Chen Village and is a senior disciple of Feng Zhiqiang in Beijing.

[Brad]

In baji, we don't have a form for our big spear training. Its single postures and we play both sides. There is a two man circle and thrust exercis. The spear form we use is a six harmony spear form.
How big is the "big" spear? And is it something you have to make yourself or is it orderable online somewhere?

[RAF]

Brad:

Go to :http://www.bajimen.com/ and click on the spear.

My friend makes the qiangs by hand. We get two pieces of wood glued together and then hand plane to a lance. You start the angle at 3 feet, while rounding the area before.

Its very important that the qiangs not be a heavy wood or too heavy otherwise you end up using the back muscles and don't develop the others.

If you visit sometime in the future, I'll be glad to take you to the school and show you what they look like.

[Brad]

Yeah, that'd be great! Maybe I'll be able to make it up there this fall... hopefully I'll own a car by then :D

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I am a big fan of Zhu tiencai. his way of teaching is much more impressive than chen zhenlai and Chen xiao wang. imho

i will have to start practicing both sides fajing.

raf- the spear two person in yang taijiquan also incorporates sticking and walking in a circle and thrusting attack and defense.

i admire the wu taiji spear and fast taijiform from ma yeuh liang shanghai lineage as well.

[RAF]

A thousand years ago, I learned pao chui from Jou Tsung Hwa and Dave Dolbear. Dave's real speciality was the line of Wu taiji from Wang Peishang of Beijing. That style is one of my favorites and I wish I would have learned some of the material.

I really like Wang Peishang's books and materials.

I suspect his spear training is also very good.

[bungda07]

Hello RAF, How does one go about finding the spears or poles pictured at Baji website? Even though I do Praying Mantis, this looks like a great training tool.

V/r

Steve M.

[RAF]

Steve M.

Well, we have one guy who makes them and they are hand-planed. He has a wood supply store glue two triangular pieces together and the spear is initially a square pole. He then takes a couple of days and hand planes with the taper starting at the 3' foot mark.

Some others might have different ways. Post Count. They had a da qiang seminar and he might tell you what they used.

Good luck.

[lstern]

Having seen a demo (on tape), I can attest that Wnag Peishang's spear techinques are top rate. Not surprising.

Nice to hear from an ex-student. I have been training in Northern Wu taiji with Dave Dolbear for the last 5 years or so.



Originally posted by RAF
A thousand years ago, I learned pao chui from Jou Tsung Hwa and Dave Dolbear. Dave's real speciality was the line of Wu taiji from Wang Peishang of Beijing. That style is one of my favorites and I wish I would have learned some of the material.

I really like Wang Peishang's books and materials.

I suspect his spear training is also very good.

[RAF]

Dave Dolbear is a top-of-the line instructor and individual. It was in late 80s or early 90s that I learned pao chui from him under the direction of Jou Tsung Hwa.

I am a very big fan of Wang Peishang and you are lucky to be studying under Dave. I met Dave once at the Taste of China in 96 or 97 (can't remember). I've always appreciated his patience and teaching ability. Very sharp man with a good eye for the art.

Please give him my regards. I'll be in Beijing for 3 weeks and I will try to get a hold of some of Wang Peishang's texts (all in Chinese). My friend and translator has one of his books on using taiji for healing which she says is top notch (she's from Shanghai and has been playing taiji and bagua all of her life). She thinks Wang Peishang's writings are worth picking up and translating.

Later.