Using Xingyi? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Black Belt Jones 1

06-11-2003, 11:08 AM

Where are you studying? Hsing-i is, in my opinion, one of the most effective styles of hand to hand combat in existence. Like tai chi, it is an internal art and does not rely on external methods to generate force and power. Unfortunately like tai chi or "Grand Ultimate Fist" it also requires "Grand Ultimate Practice". If you are looking for a fast, effective, and easily learned method for kicking butt on a Saturday night at the pool hall then look elswhere. Hsing-I takes a great deal of effort to be able to effectively put into practice. It is regarded a "high-level" kung fu and requires a high level of effort(more than what your average enthusiast is usually willing to give) from the practitioner. Here is why I think Hsing-I is so effective:

1. All strikes can be blocks and vice versa
2. Strength training is developed by relaxation techniques to the point where all strikes become knockout blows.
3. Five element fighting theory provides a set pattern of response fighting that becomes second nature to the practioner.
4. Practioners eventually develop their own styles with their own moves.

Bottom line - if a person wants to truly become a master at something and doesnt mind spending half a lifetime working toward that goal then I would check out Hsing-I. The question should be Do I want to be a tough fighter or the best at something? Many MMA types often diss the internal arts as being inneffective and not practical. Well they are effective in combat but truly they are not practical for most people. If you spend 6 months in a Brazilian JuJitsu school or a Mauy Thai School then you will probaly learn more immediately effective "street ready techniques" and if that is your goal then thats what you should do.

Void Boxing

06-11-2003, 11:38 PM

What is xing yi?.....

Black Belt Jones 1

06-12-2003, 11:08 AM

Form Mind Boxing. Just type in Xing yi, Xing-I, or Hsing-I in your search engine and you'll find lots of sites that will give you lots of info.

Leimeng

06-17-2003, 12:36 AM

~ In my own humble experiance, Hsing I is about the most effective overall art a person can study. It is one of my two primary arts, the other being PaKua.
~ All other things being equal, a 1, 3, and 5 year student of Hsing I, who studies diligently under the guidance of a competant instuctor should be able to beat a student of most any other art who studies the same amount of time with the same amount of diligence.
~ After five years, a good BaGua guy should have the upper hand. But there are very few good BaGua sources available.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

HuangKaiVun

06-17-2003, 11:25 AM

Hmmm.

I would love to put myself or my students up against you and your students, Sin Loi. Friendly challenge match, nobody gets hurt, everybody goes out afterwards.

It would be really neat to put your statements about baguazhang and xingyiquan to the test.

jon

06-19-2003, 01:51 AM

"Friendly challenge match, nobody gets hurt"
* That sounds sane, what kinda challenge match where you thinking Huang? Jedi power mind battles maybe?

We ever going to see your reply on the Tit Sing\ Sum Chien thread Huang or have your just decided to hide again?

HuangKaiVun

06-20-2003, 09:34 PM

jon, we've just GOT to meet one day.

I think it would be a great visit.

We'll probably end up as friends afterwards.

jon

06-20-2003, 10:53 PM

HuangKaiVun

"jon, we've just GOT to meet one day.
I think it would be a great visit.
We'll probably end up as friends afterwards."
* Amen to that:D

Mojo

07-08-2003, 09:28 AM

I've used my Hsing-I a number of times. It works very well. In fact sometimes it works so well you don't have to fight.
A few years back I had a guy road raging at me. This went on for a couple of miles until he started to act like he was going to run his car into mine.
I pulled into a gas station and got out of my car and waited. He pulled in and stopped about 20 ft away from me and he got out of the car. He was about 6'3" and I'm about 5'6'.
We looked at each other and I thought to myself that the fight is on, gave him the hard look I get when the going is tough and I stated to walk toward him.
This big guy went white in the face and I could see and feel his strength being drained away to nothing. As I took another step towards him he huridly got back into his car and drove away.
With Hsing-I you can 'win' fights with your eyes and attitude. Not just your fists.

Ravenshaw

07-09-2003, 07:52 PM

My Sifu related to me an old Chinese saying comparing Xingyi and Tai Chi. It went something like:

"With three years of Xingyi, you have enough power to kill a man. With three years of Tai Chi, you don't have enough power to get out the door."

It doesn't translate perfectly, I bet, but it seems to be a good observation of the (more) immediate applicability of Xingyi versus Tai Chi...

Though Tai Chi does have a lot of cool chin na in it :) .

HuangKaiVun

07-13-2003, 04:14 PM

Hsing I has a ton of grappling in it too - if it's taught and trained PROPERLY.

chen zhen

07-14-2003, 07:12 AM

With Hsing-I you can 'win' fights with your eyes and attitude. Not just your fists.

If an art does'nt have a certain attitude, then it's incomplete..;):D

btw, I'm a beginner XY student myself.

bob10

07-14-2003, 07:58 AM

HuangKaiVun

07-14-2003, 12:57 PM

It's like this, bob10:

If you train Taijiquan the way it USED to be trained, with regular sparring and pai da and all that hard fighting, you can learn to use the moves almost instantly. It takes a few months of regular training for people to GET IT in my school (or so real fights involving my students have shown).

The same goes for Hsing Yi. People get so wrapped up in doing forms nowadays that they neglect to spar it out the way a real fight unfolds - with grappling and all that heavy stuff.

For example, I teach "Form the Ball" from Taijiquan as a sleeper hold. I'll have students apply the move on each other, work the entry, and work the counters as well ("Form the Ball" can counter itself).

The thing about COMBAT kung fu that makes it totally different from boxing and Muay Thai is that it

1) train to fight multiple opponents

2) apply grappling moves and counter them

3) focus on transitional moves at least as much as the finishing moves themselves

4) deal with weapons - fighting with and against them.

5) study the healing aspects of combat, as even a victor in combat often will have a broken body afterwards.

6) prepare for real life scenarios, e.g. getting attacked in the elevator or in the bathroom or in bed.

chen zhen

07-16-2003, 08:09 AM

Can someone explain this time concept to me?

From what a lot of people say, with MT or boxing, I can learn to defend myself pretty well in the street.

But if I learn taiji or hsing i for 10 years, because they are more refined, I can....learn to defend myself pretty well in the street.

The problem with learning an internal art is the fact that you might have to use your self-defence skills at some point before those 10 years have passed..:rolleyes:
The IMA school would also have to be very, very good.

bob10

07-16-2003, 08:23 AM

I can only say I've seen very few of any of those things in the CIMA I studied.

cheers

chen zhen

07-16-2003, 01:41 PM

What do you mean?
:)

bob10

07-16-2003, 02:12 PM

Sorry, that was a response to HKV's post :)

Merryprankster

07-17-2003, 02:31 AM

This is without a doubt, one of the most mind-bogglingly painful threads I've ever read.

chen zhen

07-17-2003, 03:22 AM

Internal Boxer

07-22-2003, 05:13 AM

MP thats whats happens when people stay in their own small bubble.

EuropeanBoxer

07-22-2003, 11:26 AM

LISTEN TO YOU GUYS. oh you have to study the beatuful exotic art and bla bla bla. Well guy street fighting is vicious. The idea sint to impress him with your stances it is to take him out as fast as possible and using any means necesary. If the guy doesnt want to go down grab a brick and smash him in the head. Art wont do **** in the street. UNless you paint on walls or something. To hellwith that. Go to a local octagon or something and you guys will be able to kick ass.
Which is what all forms of martial arts virtually comes down to.....FIGHTING!

weightvest

07-24-2003, 07:11 AM

you mean waxing a car doesn't help me on the street? Bugger, and I've been waxing cars for 20 years!

chen zhen

07-26-2003, 07:39 AM

Go to a local octagon or something and you guys will be able to kick ass.

Wow! why did'nt I go to an octagon years ago? :rolleyes: It apparently has some magical power.

so, EB, is it the shape of the octagon that gives u the ability to kick ass? what if i find a hexagon, or a pentagon? will that lessen or increase my fighting ability?

:rolleyes:
jeezus f*ckin christ.

Yung Apprentice

07-26-2003, 01:22 PM

Although smashing someone's head in IS very effective, they will probably give you a hard time in court, while your trying to clear your name of murder charges.

chen zhen

07-26-2003, 02:58 PM

Is shooting a Beng-Chuan strike full of Qi-power towards the opponents heart, ultimately killing him, less worse judicially speaking..?
:D:p

[Censored]

07-30-2003, 06:28 PM

Is shooting a Beng-Chuan strike full of Qi-power towards the opponents heart, ultimately killing him, less worse judicially speaking..?

Naturally: cause of death will appear to be heart attack! :D

Laughing Cow

07-30-2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by bob10
Can someone explain this time concept to me?

From what a lot of people say, with MT or boxing, I can learn to defend myself pretty well in the street.

But if I learn taiji or hsing i for 10 years, because they are more refined, I can....learn to defend myself pretty well in the street.

IME, most people that take up IMA tend it have already learned an EMA beforehand.

At my kwoon we got few people that join with no previous MA experience.

Cheers.

Shaolin-Do

07-31-2003, 12:11 PM

LC - In comparison to the students who have previous ET experience as to none, how do they fare?
Do the ET students sometimes have excessively rigid learned movements?

Dedication

08-19-2003, 10:42 AM

Some forms of kung fu i do think can have very practical application, but saying a 10 year student of Xingyi or whatever IMA would be more proficient than a person of the same experience in muay thai or boxing is ridicu****inglous.

I did kung fu for several years before transitioning to kickboxing and boxing, and i must say it helped my reaction time and such very much(stop hits etc) , but there are a few thigns lacking from kung fu

The blocking system and footwork is very very good in styles of kung fu, however many of the strikes are completley useless and the guard stance doesnt help against a proper left hook.

A person who has boxed or especially done muay thai for a number of years will b\e a VERY VERY dangerous individual, you must take into account that moves or theory is 5% of fighting ability, these folks have the conditioning to take shot after shot or go round after round which HELPS GREATLy in a streetfight...... plus after all those years of drills on the bag and pads their strikes are going to be MUCH harder and MUCH faster then someone of kung fu training could muster .... plus while the parrying system of blocks in kung fu is efficient, it does not do much against a tight flurry of hooks upper cuts jabs and crosses by a boxer.

BAI HE

08-19-2003, 11:02 AM

"A person who has boxed or especially done muay thai for a number of years will b\e a VERY VERY dangerous individual"

I agree. And so are a lot of Xingyi and Ba Gua guys.

Joseph_alb

08-22-2003, 08:00 PM

Saying a 10 year student of muay thai or boxing would be more proficient than a person of the same experience in Xingyi or whatever IMA is ridicu****inglous.

Unless of course, someone wasted 10 years training crap.

tnwingtsun

08-22-2003, 11:59 PM

Hey Huang.....

tnwingtsun

08-23-2003, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
This is without a doubt, one of the most mind-bogglingly painful threads I've ever read.

ROTF!!

TonyM.

08-23-2003, 10:29 AM

Chen Zhen! The pic! Quick! We need the pic!:eek:

chen zhen

08-23-2003, 10:45 AM

this?

:cool:

QuaiJohnCain

08-23-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Dedication
Some forms of kung fu i do think can have very practical application, but saying a 10 year student of Xingyi or whatever IMA would be more proficient than a person of the same experience in muay thai or boxing is ridicu****inglous.

The tourneys and public record say otherwise.

I did kung fu for several years before transitioning to kickboxing and boxing, and i must say it helped my reaction time and such very much(stop hits etc) , but there are a few thigns lacking from kung fu

CORRECTION- There are are a few things missing from your kung fu.

A person who has boxed or especially done muay thai for a number of years will b\e a VERY VERY dangerous individual, you must take into account that moves or theory is 5% of fighting ability,

In boxing or muay tai, that is.

these folks have the conditioning to take shot after shot or go round after round which HELPS GREATLy in a streetfight......

So do good kung fu fighters.

plus after all those years of drills on the bag and pads their strikes are going to be MUCH harder and MUCH faster then someone of kung fu training could muster ....

That is just plain BS. You think serious kung fu people don't do percussive training?

plus while the parrying system of blocks in kung fu is efficient, it does not do much against a tight flurry of hooks upper cuts jabs and crosses by a boxer.

I think you have bad exposure to kung fu, hence the incorrect assumptions about it.

Merryprankster

08-24-2003, 12:10 PM

The tourneys and public record say otherwise.

Interesting. Show us where.

Volcano Admim

08-24-2003, 07:50 PM

"It's
Not enough
I need more
Nothing seems to satisfy

I don't want
I just need

To breath
To feel I'm alive"

Volcano Admim

08-24-2003, 07:55 PM

"How can it mean anything to me
If I really don't feel anything at all?

I'll keep digging till
I feel something."

MP buttplug will learn to fear me

Ford Prefect

08-25-2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain

The tourneys and public record say otherwise.

I agree. Could you point us to these tourney's and public records?

Golden Arms

08-25-2003, 04:52 PM

Hmm..I practice kung fu, and I hit a 150+lb Heavy Bag for an hour or more, 5 minute rounds, 6 days a week. Boxing is good, kung fu is good too. I know I cant 'block' a boxing fury, but I also know that a boxer cant flurry when his knees are ****ed up and have just punished his lower half of his body or thrown him on his ass. Again it all comes down to the fighter and how YOU train. I am even reasonably confident that a driven person could go into your average mcdojo, learn some 'moves' and then, train them hard enough that they could kick a great deal of the martial artists and fighters asses at both TMA as well as MMA and boxing gyms. They would just have to train freaking hard...condition hard, and eat sleep and breath fighting..oh yeah..that is called 'being a fighter' hmmm...

Laughing Cow

08-25-2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
LC - In comparison to the students who have previous ET experience as to none, how do they fare?
Do the ET students sometimes have excessively rigid learned movements?

Sorry, for late reply.

IME, people that have previous EMA training tend to pick up the forms and applications faster.

Yes, a lot got problems letting go of rigidy and rely too much on muscle power.

Most people that studied some form of MA are more willing to do the less "ineresting" bits of training and got willingness to wait to achieve a goal as they already know that they can already fight using their EMA.

Again like with anything it depends on the student and his capabilites of course.

Christopher M

08-25-2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Interesting. Show us where.

I think he was referring to Mike Patterson's koushu team or Tim Cartmell's guys. That's the only thing I can think of anyway...

BAI HE

08-26-2003, 05:39 AM

You can Ask Tim Cartmell about his full contact experience
at www.shenwu.com. He also has an open tourney
coming is sept. with very limited rules.

QuaiJohnCain

08-26-2003, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Christopher M

I think he was referring to Mike Patterson's koushu team or Tim Cartmell's guys. That's the only thing I can think of anyway...

Don't Forget Glenn Wilson's guys http://members.aol.com/GlennCWilson/index.htm

and the canadian kuoshu group
http://www.wushu.ca/

all very bad-ass.

Merryprankster

08-27-2003, 02:57 AM

That's not really the point here. I'm perfectly willing to accept that these folks are bad ass. I happen to believe strongly that that Tim Cartmell knows what's what!

I'm trying to understand why "the tourneys and public records show us otherwise." I don't know of any pool of straight boxers and thai boxers that compete in these tournaments really.

Footage? Records? Lots of it?

My point is that a stylistic comparison was made, and that "tourneys and public records" are used as the justification for said comparison.

Show us where.

Ray Pina

08-27-2003, 07:48 AM

Funny, my master was talking about competition last night. He's 62 years old and the UFC thing wasn't around in his day. He was highly respect by older masters such as Moy Yatt who were featured in Kung Fu magazines all the time. These men have passed away and the new generation are unaware of them. All they care about is the UFC.

You know what my master said to one of these girls who asked about going out to the UFC?

He said, "You must have something wrong with you, some defect."

"Why," asked the pretty girl.

"Because why don't you walk around naked? Why don't you show everybody."

Some folks are humble. My master had made and lost several fortunes before Gracie was $hitting his pants -- why go into a cage like an animal?

With that said, I do agree with you. It is time to put real Chinese martial arts on the map. Typically, I don't like being associated with CMA because wushu comes to mind. Anyway, that's my two cents. I've done quite well in tournaments this year, either get kicked the hell out right of way, or finishing in the top three. Due to an injury I'll have to bow out of a Sept 27 fight, but will be fighting in Dave's Nov. 8th San Shou fight. Hopefully there will be some foootage.

Christopher M

08-27-2003, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I don't know of any pool of straight boxers and thai boxers that compete in these tournaments really.

Cartmell's and Patterson's tournies were against MMA guys and MT guys respectively. Although I personally don't think that proves anything other than what Cartmell's and Patterson's guys can do...

Merryprankster

08-27-2003, 04:27 PM

Chris M, precisely. Good fighting is good fighting.

E-fist, you've really hit a nerve with me--but you didn't know, LOL! :)

I'm a competitor. I put it on the line usually about twice a month, sometimes even in events where I'm not that experienced. And I don't do it to show off. I do it to test myself.

If I did it to show off, I'd stick to local venues where I know I would be top dog. But I don't--I seek out the best competition I can for the level I am at, and I'm trying to break through to the next level, all the time.

Anyway, the reason I point that out is because I'm pretty tired of people lumping competitors into the "need to feed their ego," category. Competitors are usually (not always--there are always jerks) come of the humblest people you will meet. Confident--but humble. Why? Because they know exactly how fallible they are. They are taught that every time they lose.

apoweyn

08-28-2003, 07:20 AM

Evolutionfist,

You know what my master said to one of these girls who asked about going out to the UFC?

He said, "You must have something wrong with you, some defect."

"Why," asked the pretty girl.

"Because why don't you walk around naked? Why don't you show everybody."

What am I missing? I have NO idea what this means.

Stuart B.

TonyM.

08-28-2003, 09:47 AM

It means you don't show your stuff to just anyone.

apoweyn

08-29-2003, 10:02 AM

So... I should put my trousers back on?

TonyM.

08-30-2003, 10:05 AM

:D :D Precisely!

Cheese Dog

09-03-2003, 11:41 PM

ALL YOU GUYS PUT YOUR PANTS ON RIGHT NOW!!!!!

I'll put mine on as soon as I find them.............

Ray Pina

10-03-2003, 11:36 AM

Merry, at this point I'm with you. I am a competitor. I also play with martial artist of any style when I get the chance.

My master has played with a lot of people in his day. One that most people here will know is BK FRantzis. At the time BK was about 300lbs and just back from CHina. MY master said he was very good.

My master has no need to go out anymore. Unfortunately -- or maybe fortunately for his business -- people still come to him.

Don't get me wrong. I believe there is never an end. My master still updates his technique, it's always changing and sometimes that ****es off the seniors. But I'm guessing there will be a time when I have no desire to show anybody.

Now, my head turns whenever I hear anybody saying anything martial related. I'm so quick to want to show them they are wrong, to beat them. This comes with being young. It has also led to an injury ... Wrist is till a little weak, I have to start rebuilding. Tournament in one month.