Taiji Sanshou Fighters

[StickyHands]

Normally everywhere I see, Taiji is practiced in a slow forms, even during two man push hands drills. But there are Taiji Sanshou fighters out there, so Im wondering when they fight, especially against someone of another style, do they still restrict themselves to using slow movements with may be a few fast punches? Or the does fighter does a 180 and start fighting fast? What a does real Taiji tournament fights look like?

[Laughing Cow]

Stickyhands.

There are a lot of different training methods out there, most of the people will never do those.
One of the greatest ones, IMHO, is "Pole shaking".

You go to my class and most of what you see is forms, basics and Tui shou.
If you are lucky you get invited to the training sesssion in the evening at another location and there you will be taught other things.

Yesterday we did punching drills, not something you see commonly in a TCC Class.

Form training generally happens at multiple speeds.
Also often the form taught to a beginner is different from the form to an advanced student.
Sifu sez there are 5 levels to each of our form.
I have had only glimpses of the differences so far. ;)

Cheers.

[Vapour]

You mean, likes this?

http://www.ilram.com/M_taichimasters_temp.html

[TzuChan]

I think you have it wrong with taichi and sanshou.

do they still restrict themselves to using slow movements with may be a few fast punches? Or the does fighter does a 180 and start fighting fast? What a does real Taiji tournament fights look like?
I went to a Wushu Gala .. so they just showed the best of the best, doing their thing, but it wasn't a tournament.

The Tai Chi stuff was an Asian woman, doing the long form .. she was last years world-champion or something like that. I really didn't enjoy watching her do that, I'd rather do it myself :)

Then the sanshou part, you have this a little twisted.
I can only tell you what I know, about my training. We train 1 hour 'Tai Chi', which means warmup-form-new moves for the form-self defence applications. And then we do one hour sport fighting, aka Sanda aka Sanshou. This is in my style not a separate art, it is supposed to be given with the Tai Chi practice .. it's a student from dan Docherty that teaches me, so if you read something about Dan, you know he states that Tai Chi training ain't complete without Sanshou in it.

So we do one hour sanshou, let me assure you it's a lot different from the first hour of Tai Chi, most Tai Chi classes don't teach the Sanshou part simply because it's so hard, and well, most people think Tai Chi and they think 'Health'. So classes get filled with older people who only do it for their health, thus sanshou is not being thaught.

Over at our class, it's stated clearly the first training you get there that we also do the sport fighting, since it's so friggin fun, and very handy imho.

So what it is is, you get a lot of protection. And then the most intense hour of my week begins :) First (since I'm still a beginner) I have to do punches over and over and over, every possible punch, to make sure I don't expose myself when I try to hit the target etc... cause mistakes sticking your head forward when punching could get you kocked out. Then I do the low kicks, still no high kicks, since I simply can't get my leg that high just yet. And I also don't do throws yet, at least not in sanshou, I do throws in the first hour, for the self defence part.

The throwing part comes later on, since right now they're focusing on me to get good at punching, kicking, weight shifting, moving.

So then what the others do (they are both Belgian Champions atm, in their weight class, so they're rather good :p). They have one hour, like me. They set a timer, and once in a while it beeps and they take a short break. But for the rest, these guys fight, fight, fight ! It's amazing to watch it, it's like a muah thai fight, only a lot more cool to watch :D But that's probably because I can see it live, instead of on Eurosport =) You have to think of Sanshou as a muah thai fight .. So sanshou is absolutely NOT slow.

[StickyHands]

I never said Sanshou is slow, I asked what would it be like if Taiji methods were applied in Sanshou? -_-. Again, it seems like different variation of training, where Sanshou fighting doesnt seem anything like Taiji. Ive see Sanshou fights propagated through different MA styles, but I never seen what it would be like if Taiji moves were utilized. Since mostly in Taiji, it's flowery movements and traps and push hands, Im still puzzled where exactly the great ultimate fist come in, or how would one use the Taiji fist in the Sanshou. And most importantly, is Taiji qi also used in Sanshou? Does suddenly Taiji flowery movements get fast as hell?

[Laughing Cow]

Stickyhands.

Like with so many of your posts and question you miss the point completely.
Tai Chi is a principle based art and not technique based.

What you see of TJQ/TCC as an outsider is not even the tip of the Iceberg.
Your flowery movements aren't that flowery in execution if you knew their applications.

First before we continue this discussion what do you REALLY know about the TJQ/TCC training methods, Weapons and so on.
My guess is next to nothing but you are trying in vain to troll this board for some time now.

If knew even knew the basics you would know that San Shou is an integral part of good training.

Cheers.

[Kumkuat]

do you even know why it's practiced slow? It's slow because we have to pay attention to every little detail from the beginning. Not because it's suppose to be relaxing and unstressful. We have to make sure our alignment is correct. We have to make sure our body is coordiniated when moving. We have to make sure that we're actually relaxed everywhere. We have to make sure our intent is good. And so on. But as your practice a lot and get corrected a lot, your body would get used to the 'correct way of moving.' So you can move a bit faster and faster. That's when you can do the forms or whatever at 'normal' speeds. Like how some masters can put fajing to every move of the form and still hold the principles.

I'm sure when the masters practice the forms themselves they go through it fast. Or faster than they teach the students. Also, I don't find taiji to be flowery at all. Well, except when wushu guys do it.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Stickyhands.

Like with so many of your posts and question you miss the point completely.
Tai Chi is a principle based art and not technique based.

What you see of TJQ/TCC as an outsider is not even the tip of the Iceberg.
Your flowery movements aren't that flowery in execution if you knew their applications.

First before we continue this discussion what do you REALLY know about the TJQ/TCC training methods, Weapons and so on.
My guess is next to nothing but you are trying in vain to troll this board for some time now.

If knew even knew the basics you would know that San Shou is an integral part of good training.

Cheers.

Dont get offended, Im only asking what I've seen so far. Dont take it as insult if Im one of those inquistive instigator and outside observer, I dont like soak in all the hype at first hand, know what I mean? But it's nice to see you care to reply to all of my trollings. Otherwise how would I have any fans? lol. :D It's just that, oh I dunno, all the impressive stuff about Taiji I hear, but still when I actually do show up in one of those schools, all I see is mostly old overweight people with practially no martial intent, and I get puzzled, may be where you train, it must be a bliss, but living here makes me wonder. You have a good day. :)

[Laughing Cow]

Stickyhands.

Maybe it is the wording of your posts that gets me. ;)

BTW, the good TJQ/TCC Instructors are out there, just harder to find.
Ones that train students for competitions are even rarer.

Let people here know where you are and maybe one is close to you.

I would have never started under my current Sifu unless a guy halfway across the globe told me how to get in touch with him.
In the meantime I learned who the good and not so good Instructors are over here.

Many are in the "not so good" category, but the few good ones are there.
Most of the current Students travel often for hours to attend his class and been with him for many years.
Plus, I get to train with the current national Champion too.

Funny thing is that everybody that is serious into TJQ/TCC knows about him and his students, even though he don't advertise and generally keeps a low profile.

Find a Sifu like this and you will see a different TJQ/TCC, at the same time you will also see a different set of students.
The same could be said for nearly every other activity out there.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

Then have you ever heard of Mr. Yan Gaofei of Chen Taichi? He's a Junior Executive Council Members of American Chen Taichi - www.americanchentaichi.com

He's website is www.yangaofei.com and www.flchentaichi.com, or www.floridataichi.com

[ripat]

> ... do they still restrict themselves to using slow movements with may be a few fast
> punches? Or the does fighter does a 180 and start fighting fast?

...

> Does suddenly Taiji flowery movements get fast as hell?


It's really very simple....

We do the forms and some of the pushing hand drills slow because that way we can better learn certain things.

In self defence or competition you then *apply* what you have learnt.

Self defence or application training is not just the form done "fast as hell" but rather the principles found in the form (and in other part of tai chi practice) applied to the current self defense situation.

As to how fast the applications will be it of course depends on the situation, but you certainly don't fight in slowmotion... :-)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Then have you ever heard of Mr. Yan Gaofei of Chen Taichi?

I have heard of him, but he is of a different lineage to the Chen TJQ style that I am studying.

I don't know how his skill compares to other Chen stylists. His lineage sounds ok and he lists an impressive number of Chen Teachers.

Cheers.

[Kumkuat]

i heard of Yan. In fact, went to several seminars with him. he's really good.

[Shooter]

StickyHands, keep asking the kinds of questions you're asking here. It makes for some interesting reading.

I'll tell you this; Tai Chi players all believe their training is hard-core. That's true only in degrees of hard-core. You read a lot these days about how this or that is done in competition, but you never see any of the Tai Chi people who theorize on those things step up and put it to the test.

Also, everyone's teacher is the best and 'has the goods' regardless of the fact that everyone says 90+% of all TCC isn't the real deal - Something just doesn't add up! :p

When it comes to understanding how Tai Chi Chuan works under pressure, everyone's right and everyone else is wrong. :confused:

[StickyHands]

LOL! No comment!:p as ripat would say "..." haha, :D




Originally posted by Laughing Cow


I have heard of him, but he is of a different lineage to the Chen TJQ style that I am studying.

I don't know how his skill compares to other Chen stylists. His lineage sounds ok and he lists an impressive number of Chen Teachers.

Cheers.

So what is your lineage? By the way, your cow looks like it's not laughing, but as if it's about to die, someone is about slaughter him. lol

Taiji is becoming more and more popular, it's not veiled anymore, but in my opinion, compared to all the other major arts, the martial aspects of it is. I think it needs more exposure to the tournament fighting world. I know I know many people disagree it's not the principle of Taiji, but still, it's one branch of Taiji. I guess Id be content if I eversaw a video of Taiji in a real fight or tournament, but cant find it anywhere other than push hands drills.

[Laughing Cow]

Stickyhands.

My Chen lineage differs as I study Small Frame and not Large Frame.

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

Shooter.

I would never say that my Sifu is the best.

He is just good at what he does, I have been to BOTH good and bad TJQ schools and know the difference.

BTW, some of those hardcore fighting TJQ schools I saw, IMO, didn't practice TJQ anymore as winning and being competetive became more important than the TJQ principles.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

Ya but I think he meant even if they are hardcore to a degree, in the long run most of them dont show up to demonstrate their hardcoreness. I think in that sense most Taiji fighters are following the Taiji principles of not being so competitive. But then again, an outsider like me desires just to see what this test of abilties would look like. Im not asking for a full on hardcore UFC match.

[foolinthedeck]

sticky hands.
judging by the name you have more expertise in wing chun. well what some of the people here have been saying should really be applied to everything, start off slow and you can do it fast, but only train fast and the world flies by. i see way too many wing chun people who still think wing chun is an 'external style' just becuase no one calls it 'internal' to me the distinct is a personal one, that is, karate can be internal, slow and done 'correctly'.

when i see people doing things slow, slower ahhhhh slllloooooowwwww i see quality. its not all in thsi of course, but its not flashy, it doesnt just sell tshirts.

so if you do do wing chun, try siu lim tao for 45 mins at a time, and imagine yourself as the observer watching and asking the same intelligent questions about how this can be quality

[StickyHands]

yes good point. but doing fast or slow is irrelevant, times waits for no one really, so in the end, time does go fast. just because you practice slow, time wont slow down, it's a bad analogy. lol. but i see what you mean, one can learn more and get the sensitivity down in a much more fluid and flexible manner. eitherway, i never said fast has is all advantages, neither will i say doing it slow also has all disadvantages, but the view of the perception varies. the relevancy is what would taiji be like in sanshou, anyone has any vidclips?

[Laughing Cow]

StickyHands.

With sanshou do you mean it as 2-man practice/sparring or as the competition format.

If it is the 2-man sparring done than look for the Yang 88 Form and similar.

TuiShou as a training method is co-operative and not about winning the bout.

Cheers.

[taijiquan_student]

Stickyhands--why do you care? It doesn't matter what other people do. So what if you see a vid clip of someone applying taiji? Go and do it yourself. Do some freefighting with your taiji, cause that's all that matters. If the question is that you don't believe the taiji you practice can be used, then maybe you should be practicing something you believe in. You'll never progress in something you don't believe in. Again: do some taiji sanshou yourself. That will be much more rewarding than seeing a vid clip of someone else applying their sh.it with you just sitting there saying "wow" and not being able to do it yourself.

[Laughing Cow]

I don't think stickyhands is actually practicing TJQ/TCC or any of the other styles he asks many question about.

You can find similar questions by him in the Wing Chun, JKD, Shaolin and street fighting forums.
Which makes me think he is more trolling than looking for real answers.

Cheers.

[ripat]

> I guess Id be content if I eversaw a video of Taiji in a real fight or tournament, but cant find
> it anywhere other than push hands drills.

I have a film from Brittish Open 2001 with most (all?) of the san shou fights. The problem is that it's not really in a manageble format. It's one big 500MB quicktime movie. The quality is not great but it's ok. There's also some handform and weaponform.

If someone really want it and are prepared to download it you can contact me at nyrellATlysator.liu.se

We have some pictures from the fights at http://wudangryd.8m.com
->English->2001->BrittishOpen och andra kort från englandsresan (5-8 april)

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by taijiquan_student
Stickyhands--why do you care? It doesn't matter what other people do. So what if you see a vid clip of someone applying taiji? Go and do it yourself. Do some freefighting with your taiji, cause that's all that matters. If the question is that you don't believe the taiji you practice can be used, then maybe you should be practicing something you believe in. You'll never progress in something you don't believe in. Again: do some taiji sanshou yourself. That will be much more rewarding than seeing a vid clip of someone else applying their sh.it with you just sitting there saying "wow" and not being able to do it yourself.


Originally posted by Laughing Cow
I don't think stickyhands is actually practicing TJQ/TCC or any of the other styles he asks many question about.

You can find similar questions by him in the Wing Chun, JKD, Shaolin and street fighting forums.
Which makes me think he is more trolling than looking for real answers.

Cheers.

I mean Taiji utilized in a REAL tournament.

I dont see why do you people LIKE being offended, if you have been following my posts, than DUHHHH you should know that Im not in any CMA yet, that's why I feel I must inquire things. How would this be any real answer, when you cant ever answer them without being volatile? lol. Thank gosh Im only asking about general stuff, imagine if I said something about "lineage." Geez you guys get so skirmish and poltical with your rhetorics, if you feel like responding, then please do by all means stick to the topic, dont overwhelm me on what I should do or not do. You guys are worse than old Chinese masters. LOL. It's like asking a question becomes an insult to you. May be the nature of question seems so rudimentary, but that's because you already know, I dont! And it's not exactly a common sense since there is so much to go about, variations, and lackings. You guys seem to take it a bit to personally, I think you guys need a little yin and yang, a well balance of some other activities as well. HEHE. :D As for what I believe in and blindly go at it with no hypotheses or observation, and testing it, yes if I believe I can fly by jumping from 50 stories building, if I strongly believe it and my first time testing it, hmmm I must just do it. A little tip to all those people who got excited getting into CMA just because they saw some kung fu flick or Dragonball Z, ummm a little research doesn't hurt anybody, gathering info, asking "stupid and pointless" questions, yada yada, because umm what's that cliche, I rather be stupid now by asking stupid questions than be ignorant and stupid without asking them, and soaking all the tripes (okay, that's my addition to it). Later. Im blabbering too much, looks like this type of political, whimsical ranting filled with wisdoms of what one should do or not do is contaigous.

[Laughing Cow]

StickyHands.

If you had done a little research a lot of your questions would have been answered already.

Some of your questions should be asked AFTER you started a certain style and not before.
As for San Shou and style, it will take quiet a few years in most styles before a student can even start playing with the idea to compete.

I know that you are deciding which style you should study, but the problem is not the style but how far you can go with your choosen style.

Ask what benefits you can get from style x at your curent level, don't worry if it can win in San Shou or UFC/NHB, your chances of ending up in there or in a like situation are remote.

Empty your cup, forget about San Shou, SD and similar and than re-evaluate the styles by what they can add to your current skill-set.

Once you decided on a style, than you look for the best teacher available in your region, price range, etc.

Little story:
I did TJQ for a few years b4 joining my current teacher, which was good I learned a lot.
If I had started immediately with my current teacher I reckon I would have quit after 3 months, but with the few years in another TJQ style I learned to evaluate and see what I truly wanted to learn and than was ready for my current Sifu and his teaching method.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

Again we have different approach to perceiving things. Im not saying you're wrong, we're both entitled to our subjective collection of formal opinions. But thanks :)

[Shooter]

I meant that 'hard-core' is relative. Most of what is considered such really isn't.

It's the idea of staying cloistered and non-competitive against skilled fighters which creates and supports a lack of intellectual honesty.

When you don't test your learning against skilled fighters, it's easy to say this or that will work. When you do cross hands with real fighters, you quickly find out whether or not 'sifu' knows his stuff when he asserts the efficacy of his teaching.

That's what I meant. :)

[Laughing Cow]

Shooter.

What would you say to this:

I have never stepped into a ring or considered entering a fighting competition, but my MA training has saved my butt a few times so far.
Never asked them if they were skilled fighters though.
;)

But I agree with most of what is advertised as "hardcore" or "effective " MA is BS.

I never studied at a kwoon/dojo that advertised so most of them simply said we teach style X or Y, no claims 6 no promises.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

Care to elaborate? I mean my fighting techniques always worked against cheerleaders. hehe :D ;)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Care to elaborate? I mean my fighting techniques always worked against cheerleaders. hehe :D ;)

For cheerleaders I use a different set of techniques. ;)

What I mean since I don't plan on entering fighting competitions I don't really care how my style holds up in them. Plus, I don't think they want to see some old Guy with injuries entering there.

As for the occassional altercation that happens in the street, pub or similar so far my MA training has done me good service.

I study Chen TJQ because I enjoy the road of studying it and like what it adds to my life, I am not in it to become a kick-ass fighter or because it is reputed that some practicioners have won xx-fights.
It might have mattered many years ago when I was still new to the MA scene.

Cheers.

[taijiquan_student]

Stickyhands, don't be such a little bit.ch. You know what kinds of answers you're gonna get, but you come around asking the same questions anyway. Go practice. Don't be such a poon. I'm in a bad mood.

[StickyHands]

Thank you for choosing me as your anger outlet, Im glad you I can be a servince to letting go of your bad mood. Has life been unfair to you little boy? LOL. Your post has to be the most remarkable comment I've read in this topic.:D

[taijiquan_student]

yeah, whatever stickyhands. It seems that you're trolling a bit. I don't really see why this all matters to you. I don't mean to be rude (well, I guess I did in my last post;) ), but what's your goal in asking us about what taiji would look like in sanshou and the like? I mean, why does it matter to you? You don't even practice taiji...Just practice your own shi.t and test it out however you like, and don't worry too much things that you don't do. But hey, if you want, ask away! It ain't a bad thing, it just seems to me like you're wasting your time on these forums when you could be getting better at what you already practice.

[StickyHands]

Whoa... more impressive flammatory remarks. In the words of Buddha, "mind your own bees's nest." lol. :p

[BAI HE]

Stickypants -
Check out Max Chen, William CC's son. Max has one a couple
of Golden Gloves tournaments and a few san Shou tourneys.
The info may be on his Father's site.

[StickyHands]

Can you wash my pants for me? I think I went a little rough on you last night. J/k. lol.

[BAI HE]

I'll hose you off in the backyard

[Liokault]

This thread is sooo funny in more ways than one.

Its kind of sad as well.

[Shooter]

Liokault, yep...on both counts. LO..err.... :(

:D

[Golden Arms]

Stickyhands...I will answer you question...it will look like punching, kicking and throwing.........

[StickyHands]

Sure, when do you wanna arrange it? Im kinda busy this saturday, I got two parties to attend.

[Brad]

Hey Stickyhands, found a great video of Taiji being used in a sport fighting situation. As you can see, though most of the fighters move fairly slowly, they exhibit a great deal of power when making contact:

http://www.ilram.com/M_taichimasters_temp.html

[StickyHands]

Uh ur kinda late to this cybercafe, lol, someone already posted that earlier in this topic. And besides, I watched that long time ago, probably what "compelled" me to start this thread. :p