Wing Chun Dillema

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Did anyone ever wonder what or why did Bruce Lee felt like he needed modify Wing Chun into JKD? I wonder, what was so lacking in Wing Chun (besides Chin Na and boxing footwork) that needed a big improvement? Just because he lost some fights? And when he concocted the JKD philosophy, suddenly it was the opposite? I just think it's because he trained harder. And even refining Wing Chun into JKD, I always found his methods of fighting almost similar, except the inclusion of footwork. So what was so terribe about Wing Chun that drove this remarkable man insane? lol. Thanks.


Originally posted by red5angel
uh oh, someone had to bring in the whole wingchun thing....can't we keep that crap over in the wingchun forum?! Let those retards fight about it.


Originally posted by Knifefighter
BL felt that WC was lacking in finishing power due to its lack of full body rotation when delivering strikes. One of the things he incorporated into his fighting was the power that comes with the rotational biomechanics of western boxing and Muay Thai. He also felt that boxing slips, bobs and weaves were a superior method for avoiding punches and utilizing feinting and other set-ups.


Now I posted the main topic concerning Bruce Lee on the main Kung Fu forum, but since it was digressing toward Wing Chun, I thought may be I'd appereciate what you guys have to comment on the following question of mine? Did Bruce felt he was lacking in finishing power from Wing Chun, or did really Wing Chun as a system had a lack of full body rotation power? Thanks.

[StickyHands]

So no ones to take the bait? lol. :D

[OdderMensch]

Honestly, what Bruce Lee found lacking in Wc is of no relevance to me. For whatever reason, BL left Yip Man before he learned the entire system. However, I do remember hearing he knew CK, and some of the dummy, did he miss the body rotations in CK?

[KPM]

It is said that BL only learned WCK through chum kiu level. Perhaps if he saw any deficiencies in WCK it was because his knowledge of it was incomplete. My own theory is that BL made changes because it fit his own personality type. It seems that he was very energetic and "wired" most of the time. His JKD was very dynamic, fast and powerful. By contrast, WCK is more relaxed and "laid back." Take someone with lots of energy that doesn't want to stand still and "wait" for the opponent and obviously using lots of kicks and fighting from a longer range will appeal to them. Now take basically a kickboxing format and add in WCK concepts and hand techniques on the inside and you essentially have JKD. I have always thought that if BL had lived to an old age and slowed down naturally with age he would have come full circle and his JKD would have started to look more and more like WCK again. But that's just me. :-)

You also have to take Willam Cheung's theory into account. I remember reading many years ago that Cheung attributed the development of JKD to the idea that he himself had learned advanced theories of TWC from Yip Man but had promised not to reveal them to anyone. In training with BL he would give hints at "modified" WCK's deficiencies without actually telling Bruce the answers or what he knew. In Bruce's attempt to solve the questions or "deficiencies" proposed by Cheung from a TWC perspective, he came up with JKD. Don't know that I believe that. But it is one of the proposed theories.

Anyway. Hope that helps.

Keith

[old jong]

"If you can't be no:1 in something,create your own thing"...

Who really care anyway?) :rolleyes:

[Deathrobe]

My 2 cents.

Like most I like bruce lee

Personally i think yip man was racist, and from old school so i think he just stopped teaching bruce lee because he didnt agree with what he was doing.

Also Bruce Lee couldnt stay out of trouble and had to leave his homeland and come to our beatiful country, He really had no choice but to learn other things.

Its funny, people think bruce lee was the most incredible fighter out thier HE MADE MOVIES!!!!!Sure he was a innovative martial artist and opened the door to cross training and was definately physically fit, HE MADE MOVIES!!!!!!

I train in wing chun and Ive read pretty much most on bruce lees work.

I can see were the weakness in wing chun is but most people arent happy with the answer.

NOTE: Im a big wing chun fan the problem is it takes along time to master SENSITIVITY

MY sifu tells me and IM inclined to agree from personal experiances..


If one can master sensitivity then style is irrelievent
you need to get to the heart of wing chun is about it understand it without this knowledge you will be lost in a sea of hopelessness always trying to find answeres when the answers have always been there u just never seen them..

Wing chun is about yielding and being soft, to that end bruce lee actually starting training more external arts and lost the soft part of wing chun.

Always look at wing chun from a womans vantage point if you dont then it cant work.

most wing chun practiners when told to be soft, will still be forcefull. So many people give up on wing chun because

you cannot get as good as say a boxer can get good in 3months.

because of the time it takes to learn sensitivity.

Once you learn sensitivitiy and understand it and can apply it
then forms, footwork, techniques all become secondary.

then u can apply most things to most situations.

the problem is people dont understand sensitivity.

Bruce lee was a wise man to let go of styles and tradition these things confine you...To many people in the world are mindless slaves and are to lazy to think for themselves.

Bruce Lee had no choice he came to a strange land and had to adapt to what was happening here.

eventually all good martial artist ALL MARTIAL ARTIST realize to limit yourself into a pattern is crippling

All styles can be beaten thats what people dont understand.



I will not show you my style i will adapt to your style i will find your styles weakness and attack it.

when your in your guard, I will have no guard so you cannot see what i am about to do.

Wing Chun has become less effective because there are tons of schools out there that do not push there students to train hard, who never let there students experaince adrenaline. hmm, I suppose if teachers told there students what it takes to be a good "martial artist" they wouldnt be able to buy that new car.

The funny part is in one aspect i couldnt really claim linage to a style of wing chun because my sifu doesnt belong to any federation or assoication.

but i have played plenty of wing chun practineers from various linages and there lame.

WHY? is because of there linage of wing chun.
NO

ITs because these "grandmasters" have given away certifications like there is no tommorow and these guys who bought into it let there students teach. so slowly it has gotten watered down to a degree..

money has crippled wing chun
just like money crippled tkd and other martial arts.
the purity of training is gone in favor of $$$$$$$$$$




Wing Chun is a great system backed up by science.
but to many people go around saying they know how to do wing chun and fool people with fancy tricks there teacher showed them, but when the time comes for them to put up they are unable to..

Wing Chun is a devistating "STREETFIGHTING SYSTEM" to add into your collective defenses.

IF you train like you mean it wing chun will and can save you from most attackers,

But always keep in mind yip man was a very very small man and not very strong at all, and the style was invented by a woman.
the only way for it to work is through sensistivity.

BACK TO BRUCE LEE, I loved his movies, philosopy,teachings
but for goodness sake let the man rest in peace already he would be very disapointed with all this talk about him everywhere and probably would have been discusted that people have turned his way into the gospel something he never wanted to happen.

FIND your OWN way be yourself and do not let anyone tell you otherwise. there are people lying in every single style including westurn fighting systems. There is no best system when it comes to fighting the best system is your own system. rememember everything can be countered. unless you are the karate kid ^_^

A teacher can show the way to fish, but you have to actually fish to eat.


AND ABOUT the racist thing if anyone here doesnt think back then people were predjudice against americans your fooling yourself. I come from a asian background and just like white people ,black people and all colors inbetween racism was rampant and still is rampant in the world. and I wouldnt be suprised if yip man wanted nothing to do with the white devils lols.. IM italian/hawian/chinease/spanish..its 2003 and people are still racist. I KNOW BECAUSE I SEE IT ALL THE TIME Its actually very sad. SO IF ANYTHING bruce lee bridged the race gap..for that he has my respect.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
Honestly, what Bruce Lee found lacking in Wc is of no relevance to me. For whatever reason, BL left Yip Man before he learned the entire system. However, I do remember hearing he knew CK, and some of the dummy, did he miss the body rotations in CK?

This is about Wing Chun, not about Bruce Lee anymore, Im concerned with the principles of Wing Chun now.

So Wing Chun did have full body rotation power to deliver strikes? Because mostly you'll hear the economy of motion, the accordian-like motion punch, but it lacks power as full body rotation. Kinda reminds me the concept of Taiji, to deliver energy using the whole body.

Anyway Deathrobe:

AWESOME POST! Worth memorizing!

[foolinthedeck]

could also be the difficulty in 'selling' wing chun.
hwo many films have wing chun in - not many, it doesnt look good. what bruce lee did looked great, and so everyone in the 70's learned karate and not wing chun - weird? maybe not so.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by StickyHands

Did Bruce felt he was lacking in finishing power from Wing Chun, or did really Wing Chun as a system had a lack of full body rotation power? Thanks.
Bruce Lee moved to the USA, leaving Hong Kong in April 1959 (age 19) for San Francisco after studying Wing Chun for only a couple of years in Yip Man's school. Arriving in SF, and then later moving to Seattle, then back to Oakland, he had no teacher with whom to further his Wing Chun education, so he forged his own way, and created a blend of arts he called Jeet Kune Do, whose name is really descriptive of Wing Chun, but which in fact, though rooted in Wing Chun, incorporates much that is not Wing Chun due to his ignorance of Wing Chun principles; and he also, and most importantly, dedicated himself to physical conditioning which with his natural abilities, made him a formidable fighter.

Personally, I believe if he had lived his Wing Chun knowledge would eventually have improved and JKD would have wound up much different than the mix of different styles it is today.

Regards,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by StickyHands

This is about Wing Chun, not about Bruce Lee anymore, Im concerned with the principles of Wing Chun now.

So Wing Chun did have full body rotation power to deliver strikes? Because mostly you'll hear the economy of motion, the accordian-like motion punch, but it lacks power as full body rotation. Kinda reminds me the concept of Taiji, to deliver energy using the whole body.

Wing Chun power is not derived from hip rotation if that's what you are getting at. Likely, Wing Chun is not the most powerful of MAs because of that. Postion and timing are more important Wing Chun principles than power.

Taiji, boxing, and karate have different power generation means than Wing Chun.

Regards,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
could also be the difficulty in 'selling' wing chun.
hwo many films have wing chun in - not many, it doesnt look good. what bruce lee did looked great, and so everyone in the 70's learned karate and not wing chun - weird? maybe not so.
Good points.

Regards,

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by StickyHands


This is about Wing Chun, not about Bruce Lee anymore, Im concerned with the principles of Wing Chun now.


Good, let us never metion the b guy again :D


So Wing Chun did have full body rotation power to deliver strikes? Because mostly you'll hear the economy of motion, the accordian-like motion punch, but it lacks power as full body rotation. Kinda reminds me the concept of Taiji, to deliver energy using the whole body.


Depends on what you mean by 'full body rotation" I guess. Do you know chum kui, right near the begining there is a section where you rotate your body 180deg, the main difference I see between us and other arts is the idea that rotation and power come more from the knees than the hips.

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by John Weiland

Taiji, boxing, and karate have different power generation means than Wing Chun.


And completely different from one another.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
Originally posted by John Weiland

Taiji, boxing, and karate have different power generation means than Wing Chun.


And completely different from one another.
OdderMensch is correct.