Martial arts as a sub-culture?

[shaolin kungfu]

Do any of you guys think that martial arts have formed a seperate society, or community, or sub-culture, that is different from that of most other cultures? In other words, have we become like punk rockers, sharing similarities with those on the "outside", yet having more in common with each other than we do with "them".

For instance, mention Marvin Perry, Cung Le, or Yip Man, and the average person will look at you with a blank expression. Yet if you say these people to a martial artist, there is a very good possibility that they will know what you are talking about.
Many "normal" people would have know idea what the difference is between karate and kungfu, and many don't care.

We also hold the common belief that, worst come to worst, violence is an answer. Many people would not agree with this outside of martial arts(and maybe some won't agree here ;) ).

So, what do you guys think? Am I just talking out of my bum?

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I think you make alot of sense. Think about it, we have our own rules of relating to one another, our own heros and our own ways of socialising with one another that a non martial artists just would not "get". I mean, what other sub culture thinks hitting each other is a "good" thing?

[yenhoi]

The worst part is that they are out to get us. We should strike first, kill the normal people sheep before they band together and kill us!

:eek:

[Royal Dragon]

Actuyally, in NY you might be right.

[Unstoppable]

"For instance, mention Marvin Perry, Cung Le, or Yip Man, and the average person will look at you with a blank expression. Yet if you say these people to a martial artist, there is a very good possibility that they will know what you are talking about."

yah dude but thats not enuff for a subculture if i work for a transport company and i say to most people some crap about scanning a consignment note as left in depot most people might not no wha im talking about but other people who work in transport companies probly will but that doesnt make it a subculture

subculture isnt just knowing stuff most dont or everyone who has a job or haobby or whatever is part of that subcultre

subculture is living a particlar way of life like hanging out with all friends of a certain type and sharing values and important stuff like that not noing who is cung le

also most people outside MA think that violense is acceptivle answer as a last resort if they dont they are true pacifists and there arenot many of those around (quakers etc) they are acception not the tule

[yenhoi]

Of course Im right, look at their eyes!

:eek:

[Becca]

Definantly a clique, if not an actual sub culture. My kwoon's brothers and sisters hang out together, train to gether, work together, even date and inter-marry. Every one else just looks at us weird when we start bragging about our collection of bruises.

My mother discided to try one of the Chinese vitamins I take 2-3 times a week. She didn't understand why I would pay 3 bucks a pop for Happy Hundren Years when it tastes like Cr@p and gives a mild alergic reaction to someone who is alergic to bees, (Like me. ;) ) I don't think she believes me when I tell her it keeps me from getting sick and has actually reduced my asthma to almost nothing.

Most people know that serious martial arts study is good for anger management, but then they see you keep a cool head in a bad situation and think you're some kind of freek. This actually suprized me at first, too. I had a staff sergeant in the Marines whom I absolutly detested. She didn't like me, and would set me up every chance she got.

Shortly after I started studying Ninjitsu Kai, I noticed that I was able to see her little plans while they were still forming in her head and could side step them. It only made her get more creative with her scheams, though. But after a while others started to see a patern to her actions. They brought it up to the company Gunny.

He started to watch her like a hawk, and when she did it again, she was given a bad set of pro & cons, then transfered. Then he made sure I got my corporal, as she'd made sure I never came up for promotion. I got it a year late, but I did get it. :D And the bad Pro & cons followed by a quik transfer spelled the end of her career.

If I'd taken the matter up with any one they would have ignored me. As it turns up, they started checking her history. It would seem that an abnormally large number of junior Marines got booted out under her.

[Cody]

Subculture sounds good to me. It might be difficult to see where this begins. Cause the word "culture" can be seen in different ways. So "subculture" could fall prey to a certain lack of clarity as to what is meant.

See culture can be:
development or improvement of physical qualities by special training or care [body culture, voice culture].
another defintion:
the ideas, customs, skills, arts, etc. of a people or group, that are transferred, communicated, or passed along, as in or to succeeding generations......

So, training the voice does not necessarily have an ethical connotation. It doesn't go as deep as I would have seen subculture or culture to be. Yet, it fits the definition. I think martial arts fits both definitions, but there are distinct variations in practice in individuals and in subgroups. Good points by Unstoppable.

Cody

[Budokan]

Sub-culture? Nah, I don't think so. The term "sub-culture" is used for a whole social dynamic that isn't really apparent within the martial arts self-defense context. Sure, you have a lot of people who are interested in the same thing and may or may not hang out together, but it's not a social-economic-political movement which seems to be inherent within other recognized sub-cultures: hippies, Goths, grunge, rednecks, Pop, etc.

Having said that, MA is certainly moving towards sub-culture status (or at least shameless self-parody) in the sense that it often rests on its own inbred legends generated by MA wannabes and does nothing to educate the public about misconceptions and physical limitations regarding MA.

[Stacey]

I typically have some comraderie with other martial artists. But we don't speak the same way or dress similarly. We are enthusiasts. In CMA, there is, except that we are too busy hating each other. Karate and the Japanese arts probably are the closest.

[David Jamieson]

the definition -

subculture - A cultural subgroup differentiated by status, ethnic background, residence, religion, or other factors that functionally unify the group and act collectively on each member.


my opinion-

NO. Martial artists do not live in a subculture. First, if you can show me a city that has unity amongst its martial arts clubs, I would give you a shiny new nickel.

Martial artists are more about being bnetter than the other club down the street or being the personal best in the art form etc etc.

There is no unified culture between Kungfu stylists and Tae Kwon Do artists. They are constantly and consistently deriding each other. Teachers deride other teachers and arts, students do the same thing and the behaviours continue over and over again.

So, having said that. We do find that inside the realm of martial arts, their are martial arts subcultures. Such as Hung Gar families that unite together. Or Mantis systems etc etc. These styles are usually unified through a commonality in lineage somewhere along the line. Shaolin is another example.

BUt the hard reality of it is imo, is that there is no strong subculture associated with martial artists in north america or elsewhere.

Now, if we start talking about tongs and triads etc, well that's different and I'm certain many of you are not in the least a member of one of these organizations.

Frankly, I'd prefer it more if martial arts were more mainstream.

cheers

[apoweyn]

I'm with Kung Lek and Unstoppable on this one. (Did I just say that?!)

Anyone with specialized interests is going to speak a common language. Whether it's the meaning of THAC0 (roleplaying), the names of various fly fishing lures, or the less upsetting definition of a 'clean and jerk.'

But as has already been mentioned, martial artists are not distinguished by a certain look, a certain mode of dress, a living space, or any other distinguishing feature.

There might be commonalities. But this board itself is a testament to the fact that there are also profound differences. Between countries, styles, and individuals.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Oh, and I also agree with Kung Lek that martial arts should be more mainstream. Constantly, people complain about the misperceptions people have toward martial arts. And yet we cultivate this insular behavior. Don't talk about martial arts in front of other people. They don't understand. But then, they don't understand because we don't talk about it in front of them.


Stuart B.

[MasterKiller]

They don't understand. But then, they don't understand because we don't talk about it in front of them.

Yeah, but a lot of time, they just don't care, either. Just because we like it doesn't mean everyone else wants to hear you talk about it.

[ZIM]

It'd be nice if MAs were more mainstream. I do not think that CMAs are a subculture, but that they could have one if they chose to. Whether that would help, I can't say. Altho it might help with the unity issue. At most, particular arts or pais have a subculture to them- thats part of the reason for secret palm formations and such, like in hung gar.


But as has already been mentioned, martial artists are not distinguished by a certain look, a certain mode of dress, a living space, or any other distinguishing feature. only true for a certain segment- the much-maligned silk pajama crowd.

What about MMAs? Are they way down in this S-s-subba-kultcha??? [the pixies, man!]

[SaMantis]

I don't know how much martial artists are actually cultivating insular behavior. Part of the problem is the Average Joe's perception of martial arts as a whole. Tell someone, "I practice kung fu," and they'll make "hy-YAA!" karate chop sounds. (If they've seen The Matrix they might go, "Oh, like Keanu.") No matter how much you explain, they'll cling to that popular perception. So after awhile it's like, why bother?

Then you have (typically newer) MA's who are exploring "the power of the Tao" or thinking they've figured out the essence of chi in a month of classes. Sometimes they explain things a bit too enthusiastically and not too correctly to their buddies at work, and suddenly they're That Nutty Karate Guy/Gal. And some folks will apply that "feel the chi, dude" attitude to all MA's, making them nutty by proxy.

Then again, maybe it's just me who's nuts.

[MasterKiller]

The problem with making it mainstream is the reason why it was closed-door for centuries in the first place.

If people see the techniques and become accustomed to them, they lose their effectiveness.

100 years ago, if someone came at you with a series of Tae Kwon Do kicks aimed at your head, and if you had never seen those kicks, let alone anyone kicking fast and high, they'd probably knock you flat. Now, every movie we see has technique upon technique, and people are desensitized to them, so not only do they lose their ability to catch your off guard, but people also become familiar enough with techniques that they can reasonably defend them as well. I'm not saying you can learn to fight from the movies, but I do think our over-exposure to martial arts through the media (albeit glorified and un-realistic) has dampened the arts.

[Becca]

CMA were taught closed-door because the Manchus hunted and killed all martial artists in an attempt to subdue Chinese resistance to the over throw of the Ming Dynasty in the 1600s. This atitude didn't change in China till just recently.

And we all know how open-minded western cultures can be to something new...:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

The Shaw brothers caught a lot of flack from masters for displaying the martial arts on film for precisely the reason I listed.

[ZIM]

You know MK, I have to give you that one.

It used to be I would watch a KF movie and be like Keanu going, "whoa". :eek:

Now, its more like, "I can take him!"

Well, sometimes anyway. :D

[apoweyn]

I don't know how much martial artists are actually cultivating insular behavior. Part of the problem is the Average Joe's perception of martial arts as a whole. Tell someone, "I practice kung fu," and they'll make "hy-YAA!" karate chop sounds. (If they've seen The Matrix they might go, "Oh, like Keanu.") No matter how much you explain, they'll cling to that popular perception. So after awhile it's like, why bother?

Well, that's fine. If you don't want to bother, don't bother. That's perfectly valid. But if that's our take, we shouldn't complain that people don't get it.

Besides, in 18 years, I've yet to meet someone that wasn't genuinely interested in hearing the reality, even when they did start out with bad Bruce Lee calls and nonsense Daniel-san references.

Either we try or we live with the consequences. It's that simple, to my mind.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


Yeah, but a lot of time, they just don't care, either. Just because we like it doesn't mean everyone else wants to hear you talk about it.

And I'm not suggesting that we force it down people's throats. I'm not one to introduce martial arts as a topic of discussion. But often times, when people joke with me about it, it's because they're interested. Uneducated, but interested. And dismissing them because of their uneducated statements (jokes, misperceptions, etc.) is no way to fix it.


Stuart B.

[cho]

we have to find a way to package Shaolin kung fu for the masses.

singing and dancing?

no wait, Soccer!

[Black Jack]

THACO

I am old school and like the old D&D method of Armor class. THACO makes it easier but I am a ***** that way. I also still use the old hand to hand AD&D system of overbearing, striking, and grappling which is found in the first AD&D dungeon master guide.

Also use common sense when playing with encumbrance. Most people get to tied up in the rules and not the spirit.

btw- the new remake of Temple of Elemental Evil rules.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Black Jack
THACO

I am old school and like the old D&D method of Armor class. THACO makes it easier but I am a ***** that way. I also still use the old hand to hand AD&D system of overbearing, striking, and grappling which is found in the first AD&D dungeon master guide.

Also use common sense when playing with encumbrance. Most people get to tied up in the rules and not the spirit.

btw- the new remake of Temple of Elemental Evil rules.

:)

I think perhaps I've identified a sub-subculture. Gamer martial artists.

[MasterKiller]

That's not a sub-culture. That's just a do rk.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
That's not a sub-culture. That's just a do rk.

C'mon now. You know it hurts Uncle Stuart when you say that.

[red5angel]

The problem with making it mainstream is the reason why it was closed-door for centuries in the first place.


Hmmmm, thats an odd take on closed door study. My impression was alwasy that some of these masters made a living from teaching. If everyone could see what he was teaching they would have no need to study from him directly. It also allows him to control who is learning and teaching the stuff he is passing on. I am not so sure I could agree that they are hiding techniques so you wouldn't know how to respond. A good martial artist should know how to respond to just about anything. A non martial artist can sometimes be taken pretty easily by some pretty basic techniques, more in my opinion due to training then them not seeing it. Everyone knows what a jab or a hook is, but they seem to work fairly well anyways. As for the TKD stuff, I have seen the most basic TKD stop a couple of fights.


Black Jack- hehe, I just took my party through that adventure!!!

[David Jamieson]

CMA were taught closed-door because the Manchus hunted and killed all martial artists in an attempt to subdue Chinese resistance to the over throw of the Ming Dynasty in the 1600s. This atitude didn't change in China till just recently.

Becca - that did indeed occur but closed door studied precluded the invasion of the Qing.

Closed door study was given to student who showed promise and would bear the entirity of the style for future generations. Only the keeper of teh style would choose who would be the next keeper and so, he would teach that person privately and give them all the system had to give.

Frankly, the resistance was crushed whether it was vocal dissidence or martial uprising or even scholarly study of forbidden subjects.

The secret societies that sought to overthrow the foreign usurpers were the ones who were chiefly targeted, moreso for their political leanings than the fact they had martial artists in their ranks.

Something akin to todays AlQuaeda vs American/British foreign interests.

where Al Q represents the old timers who want to go back to the way it was and the Americans and Brits represent the New thinking that will drag the old kicking and screaming into the now.

cheers

[Becca]

Thanx for expanding my knowkegde, KL. My style's bio didn't get that indepth into it.:)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Many Sifu would choose one or more individuals to teach privately aka closed door. Usually only one of these would be choosen to carry on the style, however sometimes there was more than one. It boiled down to trust, honor and integrity of the student to earn the right to be a closed door student and to inherit the responsibility of carrying on the style/system.
The Ching were an invading force that took over China. Opposition groups sprung up esp. after the destruction of the southern temple to overthrow the Ching and restore the Ming Dynasty. The oppostion groups did not initate attacks on the civilian population of the invaders either before or after the invasion (they only fought them in China)...so in all logic, one cannot equate the oppositon groups to the Ching with AlQuaeda -bent on destroying Americans and the West under the guise of their religion.

GHD

[Lao Shan]

one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Lao Shan
one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Not so! See above post.

GHD