moving without touching

[flaco]

i read an article debunking a ken cohen article, in it, a guy from china put up the equivelant of maybe a million dollars,calling on anyone who can come, and project their chi, after he read the cohen article prior, he invited cohen to come and get the money. of course cohen never did, and nobody in all of china ever did.

i do believe somewhat in qi healing, but only if the one doing it has many years experience. but alot of it is b.s

i study internal arts, and believe in qi, im also an acupuncture student.

an example of bull****----i have this student in my tcm college, he does taiqi, he is asian, born in america, he was finishing class, and went on to explain to a girl that he does qi gong,and can heal,etc. so he lays her down, starts moving his hands above her belly, and then throwing bad qi onto the floor,etc. of course she was greatly relieved(psychosomatic).

he was never taught medical qi gong, so i watched, and asked these few questions.
1) how d0o you know your taking the bad qi, and not the good qi?
2)when you threw it there toward the floor,and the chair, if the next person sits there, will they absorb the bad chi?
3) he is a heavy drinker- how does he know he did not put his bad qi into her?

all of which he had no answer.i hate that people become extremist, and think they are like enlightened, when their own lives are in chaos, and claim to be able to heal others. theres another guy, who is a buddhist for ten years, and he will debate everything and anything, hes been theree and done that, better than you or i, so i ask him--doesnt buddhism teach patience, understanding, and humbleness?after ten years, all you want to do is try to be number one in every conversation, have you wasted your money for ten years?

[Former castleva]

That´s an interesting topic.

I´ve read your post a few times by now but I´m still undecided on what you exactly want to discuss about.

I for one,am a die-hard skeptic.

[ZIM]

I'm not sure either. Maybe if you could provide a link to the article challenging Ken Cohen, that would help??

FC- more stuff to throw at you! Hope you like:
http://www.qigongseattle.com/Research.asp

http://www.emergentmind.org/neuropsychoimmunology.htm

[Former castleva]

Whoa.
I feel I´m being buried under this stuff you threw.Thanks.
It´s looking suspicious already,I´ll try to get some sense out of it. ;)

[ZIM]

Anybody in Vancouver? (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/06/06/Consumers/chinesemedicine_030606) What do you make of this, any comments?

"VANCOUVER, B.C. - British Columbia is about to make history when it confers official status on doctors of Traditional Chinese Medicine.

It will be the first government in North America to officially recognize and regulate practitioners of the 4,000-year-old system of medicine.

At a ceremony at University of British Columbia next week, the province's health minister will officially confer the title to more than 200 graduates.

Although the doctors won't be given equal footing to conventional western doctors, it's a feat for the hundreds of traditional Chinese medicine doctors, who have been fighting to legitimize the practice. "

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


of course she was greatly relieved(psychosomatic).

Here is the issue.. the power of the mind to effect change.. that change is acted upon through many different biological systems, yet.. the central system at work is a system of energy, mental energy.. through simply believing something strongly enough it becomes reality. The mind, can, through various electro/bio/chemical systems alter the physical being..

As an 18 year old i was hypnotized by a neighbor (a licensed ethnical hypnotist), he then suggested to me that the penny he was holding was red-hot.. he dropped the penny in my hand, not only did i feel the pain, it actually raised a blister.. That was evidence enough, for me, of the power of the mind.. Whatever we name the system at work (Chi, whatever) there is an obvious and accessible power of the mind that can achieve remarkable feats..

Skeptics will be skeptics, and they have their place in the grand scheme of things, but.. it's the dreamers and doers that advance mankind's understanding of life and the universe in which it lives..

I can conjure, mentally, the relationships of energy that could effect healing and "moving without touching", but.. i, and most others, have been so dogmatically trained to reject such notions that it is a major challenge to move the concept into reality.. it is simple to "say" you believe something, difficult to actually overcome such effective indoctrination..

Conceptually, i do believe in Chi, or whatever it's called, so now i simply continue my training, work out the issues, and know that even though i may never master the use of it, i may make the path a little easier for those following behind..

Be well..

[flaco]

i guess i was just venting, about the guys i dealt with.
but on a topic, i am very skeptical of the guys who have great claims.i hope people will respond, im looking for input on anything you have experienced as far as qi, anything beyond the normal tingling.
i am an acupuncture student, and many people in my school read books, and question nothing. anything that an old tcm book says, they believe. i believe tcm works, and i love it, but i have yet to see anyones allergies healed, or fibromialgia,etc
on a good note, i have seen great results in stroke patients, and the common cold,etc

my shifu is li tailiang, and we do plenty of internal, and master li, does not really believe anyone can move someone else without touching them, and i had read some articles to the contrary, but i trust master li, since hes done bagua and xing i since 5 years old, and lived in shaolin for a number of years.

but im very interested in your stories, so please share

[Former castleva]

I think it is good to be a bit skeptical,even if you "subscribe" to related stuff,if I can say so.


"i guess i was just venting, about the guys i dealt with.
but on a topic, i am very skeptical of the guys who have great claims."

Always remember that extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof.


"i am an acupuncture student, and many people in my school read books, and question nothing. anything that an old tcm book says, they believe. i believe tcm works, and i love it, but i have yet to see anyones allergies healed, or fibromialgia,etc"


:eek: :eek: Anything the book says...
Allergies by definition,can NOT be healed generally speaking and this information is coming from specialists of the field.


I´m sorry but I must be the last person to offer stories of "tingling" or other sensations.

[shadow]

It seems to me, the problem with trying to move someone without touching them (with chi projection, kong jing, etc) is Chi in its normal form is not solid. As conventional wisdom would have it, would pass right thru a person. At best it might make them nauseus or disorient them, which in my mind might give one a huge advantage in a fight but that's for another discussion. If you could somehow materialize your chi ( make it solid) you might indeed be able to move someone with out touching them. According Einstien's Theory of Relativity all energy has the potential to become matter and vica-versa. Theorietically kong jing is possible. To my knowlege no one has made practable. Although the way the subject is treated, If some one did have this power they're probally not going to let it be widely known.

[Former castleva]

shadow,

To relate Einstein´s theory of relatively to this,to me does sound like an astrologist looking for scientific justification for his "theories" from astronomy if you know what I mean.
:cool:

[Void Boxing]

Originally posted by flaco
i guess i was just venting, about the guys i dealt with.
but on a topic, i am very skeptical of the guys who have great claims.i hope people will respond, im looking for input on anything you have experienced as far as qi, anything beyond the normal tingling.
i am an acupuncture student, and many people in my school read books, and question nothing. anything that an old tcm book says, they believe. i believe tcm works, and i love it, but i have yet to see anyones allergies healed, or fibromialgia,etc
on a good note, i have seen great results in stroke patients, and the common cold,etc

my shifu is li tailiang, and we do plenty of internal, and master li, does not really believe anyone can move someone else without touching them, and i had read some articles to the contrary, but i trust master li, since hes done bagua and xing i since 5 years old, and lived in shaolin for a number of years.

but im very interested in your stories, so please share

Ive been training chi kung off and on for about eight years. Ive researched a few books by Dr Yang Jwing Ming and found his work to be excellent. I practiced many hours with seated meditation, the small circulation i could do, but grand was something different. I found that in all of my practice, the most effective method of breathing i could do, was not to focus on the dan tien, but to just breath naturally with the abdomen, to make the whole abdomen one dan tien. Ive experienced a sensation that made the whole body feel as though it where one heart beat by using this method. Ive experienced my chi moving around my body, from my head to me feet, to my knees to my hip. When i didnt try and isolate chi i found it to expose itself more readily. This is just my own experience, not gospel truths that you must follow to realise. It is my truth.

Seated posture - sitting normally in a chair, using the buddhist breathing method. Hands are cupped and placed in ones lap. THe whole abdomen is used to breath and ones attention is simply on the breath as it enters and exits the body. Feeling the breath entering in and out, you get the feeling of the oxygen entering into your body and out. With constant deep breaths, i thought that the whole sensation of chi was just a well oxygenated body. But the tingling, the movements within, the whole heart beat thing, i found these to occur when, like i said, didnt localise my attention on the dan tien and didnt try to control it. But what about san kung? Energy blockage occurs only when you have tension ive found, sitting in a chair, you dont get very tense.

Another thing i found really good was the lying flat on the floor expression of chi kung. I once made my whole body feel as light as air, another manifestation of chi i believe. The lying expression of chi kung is to use the buddhist method of breathing again and to just relax and breath without localising attention anywhere, just feeling what occurs within. This type of meditation was called total body meditation. Dr Yang explains it in one of his books, the bone marrow changing one.

I found that following my own method led me to the most understandings in the field. But that is just me.

These are my experiences, and understandings, i hope that they serve to be enlightening in some way.

[shadow]

I'm not looking to justify any thing. I was just pointing out some things that seemed to have been overlooked, in past and present discussiions,by people who believe in or don't believe in kong jing. I don't have kong jing ability, I don't know of any one who dose. As far as, Einstien's Theorys: Kung Fu is applied physics at its best. Or as the Tao Te Ching says; " The hidden gives rise to the manifest, and the manifest gives rise to the hidden." Translated; "The only way to find out what we don't know is to use what we do know.

[Former castleva]

I do not think anyone has kong jin ability.

Tao Te Ching sure is a nice book and all if you´re into that and I´d agree that kung-fu (or about any martial art) boils to physics and "common sense" in the end of the day,not some hidden force.

[No_Know]

I still No_Know that I have seen Gravity. And waves is the Result of something ~using the air, water as a vehicle.

Physics has been about discoveries/rationalizations/realizations... If not hidden perhaps not widely perceivablly understood.?.

[Former castleva]

You don´t,"no(t) know" or you perhaps "no(w) know"?

Uh.
I think I´m letting you guys be on this. ;)

My occam´s razor just got stuck.

btw,does this relate nicely or what?
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9804/01/therapeutic.touch/

[[Censored]]

And somewhere, on the other side on the planet, a bunch of self-satisfied aborigines have proven that televisions do not exist. Because, you see, it is impossible to shrink all those people and objects down and fit them into one box!

[draggin dragon]

But they come genetically pre-shrunk; and the outback is one big box.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I was competing at the Seattle World Kung Fu Championships in '97 (i think it was 97, it was John Leong's Tournament).. any way, during the push-hands competition my opponent was double-grabbing and yanking with "FaJing" quality moves.. to make a short story long, i ripped a groin muscle (tennis ball sized knot low in the Kua).. The next day i tried to take a seminar with Ms. Cui Lu Yi (Chen), but the pain and loss of flexibility made it impossible.. Ms. Cui told me to sit down and after the seminar she would fix it.. (at this point it was me that was skeptical).. That afternoon Ms. Cui and Nelson Chan as interpreter (G'Master Chan Pui's brother) came to my room and she worked on me for almost an hour.. i won't go into all the details here but, there was some pain involved.. i was instructed not to let my feet touch the floor for 2 hours after the treatment and not to shower for four hours.. The following day Ms. Cui, myself and two other students went hiking in the Olympic mountains, i never felt any more pain or complications from the torn muscle.. Ms. Cui asserts that she manipulated Chi to fix the problem.. The Doctor at the tournament said it would be weeks or months and i may need surgery to repair the injury... There are many witnesses to this amazing healing, and more than one skeptic was left bewildered.. just another in a series of events that affirmed, for me, that there are some amazing aspects to the human being that few have mastered.. yet, obviously, available to those willing to invest the time and faith..

Be well..