Sensitivity or Structure?

[churn-ging]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering what you find more important, sensitivity or structure?

In my current understanding of wing chun, I find that structure is more important because with good structure, you will develop good sensitivity.

What is all of your opinions on this?

[Wingman]

I was just wondering what you find more important, sensitivity or structure?

Both. Structure enables you to stand on the defensive; while sensitivity enables you to probe for the opponent's weakness. Sensitivity and structure must work hand in hand.

[Alpha Dog]

You won't develop one in advance of the other. Work on both simultaneously.

[foolinthedeck]

if u have good structure but u tense, u will find it hard to relax.
relax first then learn the structure - good taiji people find it easier to adapt to wing chun than bodybuilders

[Deathrobe]

Listen, structure will come in time just listen to your sifu and when he corrects your form pay attention.


The single most important aspect of wing chun is sensitivity

My sifu focused on sensitivity from the very begining

Alot of schools teach all the forms real fast focused on structure and some technquies. My sifu focused on feeling in energy.

All the structure and technquies will not save you in a fight.

If you cant feel energy then you will fail im not saying that structure isnt important all im saying is if you were to say what are the most important aspects of wing chun its the sensitivity training then structure and finally techniques.

Remember Wing Chun uses sticking principles the only way to stick and actually counter is by feel.


Structure is important, but ive played against students who focus on their structure more then there feel.

I remember going to a church and there was a guy there from a different wing chun school we ended up having a friendly sparring session

I was in sil lum tao he was in chum kul

At the time we both were taking lessons around the same amount of time his sifu was showing him stuff faster.
hehe Or just taking his money anyhow


the bottom line he new more techiques and his sifu focused on his structure . I crushed him because he couldnt feel me.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by churn-ging
Hi everyone,

I was just wondering what you find more important, sensitivity or structure?

In my current understanding of wing chun, I find that structure is more important because with good structure, you will develop good sensitivity.

What is all of your opinions on this?




Without structure there is no sensitivity. Without sensitivity there is no structure.

But what is a good structure? What is a good sensitivity?

[reneritchie]

Hendrik says po-tato, I say potat-o....

[KingMonkey]

Without structure there is no sensitivity. Without sensitivity there is no structure.

Sorry, but the above is simply not true.

If developing/having sensitivity were based on WC structure then how come many grapplers, Tai-Chi people etc are able to use it very affectively with a very different structure to ours ?

I say sensitivity. Taken to extremes perfect structure will only do so much.

[old jong]

Sensitivity and structure can have different meanings depending on your lineage/school. Experience is a word common to all.
Just try to develop your Wing Chun skills practicing with people who are doing their best to touch you.
Other styles have their ways too.;)

[Deathrobe]

LETS JUST stop with all this nonsense

SENSITIVITY IS KEY

King monkey is right about that tai chi sensitivity training is as valuable as Wing Chun sensitivity training or a grapplers sensitivity..

IF you can master sensitivity u will be able to play or fight with anyone.


Sensitivity is a universal truth not just for wing chungers..

I am a wing chunner for the past 10yrs among other things however there IS more then one way to aquire sensitivity.

In essense sensitivity is the ability to feel another persons movement so u can RESPOND without your vision.

Also someone who masters sensitivity can respond before the brain processes whats going on therefore increasing your response time substanually.

Im not talking about hokey pokey huffing and puffing magic im talking about

SKILL u know skill that takes yrs to aquire..

All styles of fighting if the right person is teaching it will lead u to this truth.

there is no such thing as styles in a streetfight just 2 humans facing off in combat.

If you thinking im going to use this or im going to use that YOU are as good as beaten up..

money has corrupted this world and people are like sheep just following the herd...


Dont let anyone anywhere take away the validation of sensitivity.


Sensitivity is a truth. Structure is different depending on your system of martial arts..BUT SENSITIVITY IS CONSTANT.. and there arent rules to dictate your action u just feel your way around much better way of fighting if you ask my opion.

[Alpha Dog]

You need both sensitivity to feel your opponent and structure to keep you focused.

[yylee]

oh.. please don't get too sensitive over this structurally sensitive topic... wilya :)

[[Censored]]

Sensitivity and structure can have different meanings depending on your lineage/school.

I disagree, they are well defined in English and in martial arts. Sensitivity is the ability to receive and interpret sensory input (i.e. apprehend the circumstance through the eyes, ears, skin, etc). Structure is your body's position in three-dimensional space (NOT four-dimensional space).

If "good structure" has different meanings in different schools, that is due to the qualifier "good". If you can't appreciate this level of precision when communicating, kindly take yourself to a karate BBS and leave us alone. ;)

And you absolutely can develop one without the other, though one is not very useful in combat without the other. IMO sensitivity is the key in transforming your structure to accord with the circumstance. IOW sensitivity is a prerequisite for good 4-D structure.

[red5angel]

You won't develop one in advance of the other. Work on both simultaneously.

LOL! thats a good one. Keep practicing AD...;)

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by red5angel


LOL! thats a good one. Keep practicing AD...;)

Thanks Grabula, I will.

[foolinthedeck]

what is structure? or good structure? keeping to the forms and not adapting to ones opponent at all??? sometimes even a tan must be 'bad' structurally to work.

[canglong]

Sensitivity or Structure?


There is no or only and

[Phenix]

Originally posted by KingMonkey


Sorry, but the above is simply not true.

If developing/having sensitivity were based on WC structure then how come many grapplers, Tai-Chi people etc are able to use it very affectively with a very different structure to ours ?

I say sensitivity. Taken to extremes perfect structure will only do so much.



No one said "based on WC structure".

So what is a structure?
What is a Taichi structure?
What is sensitivity?
:D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hendrik says po-tato, I say potat-o....


I never say potato.
I say silk floating in air.

[planetwc]

Structure, then sensitivity.

Without it you cannot neutralize incoming force correctly, AND you will be off balance or at least prone to having your balance taken and capitalized on.

Structure is the foundation on which you build the rest of your skills.

[Slo Mo]

I agree with David.

Structure is the foundation in which you build your skills. I think it is essential to develop your structure initially and only with a strong foundation in structure can you develop real sensivity. They must be developed in tandem after a certain level though.

A structured tan sao is useless if you can't move with correct timing to a bong sao when needed. But it is also useless to change to a bong sao with correct timing if you cannot form it correctly. Each will give your opponent openings to unbalance you.

Depending on your present skill level one should be focused on more as compared to the other. Beginners should focus on structure as compared to the advanced practitioner who has a strong foundation will focus on fine tuning their sensitivity. To the argument as which is more important its kinda like asking which came first... the chicken or the egg, one begets the other.


Al

[kj]

Originally posted by planetwc
Structure, then sensitivity.

Without it you cannot neutralize incoming force correctly, AND you will be off balance or at least prone to having your balance taken and capitalized on.

Structure is the foundation on which you build the rest of your skills.

I concur with David. Even without great sensitivity, good positioning (structure implicit) will help. But without strong positioning (including stance and posture), sensitivity alone will yield limited results. (I don't mean "strong" in the muscular sense.) I can be sensitive as all get out, and still get hit; knowing it's coming isn't enough.

So I believe that positioning must come first and foremost. Sensitivity without positioning is hollow. At least with positioning you have something to work with.

Having said that, I myself don't think one is ultimately more "important" than the other in the longer term; rather the real magic is in the synergy of the two. "If" the precondition of good positioning is met, sensitivity plays the more essential part in the endlessness of improvement. But of course it is circular. The more sensitive we become, the more precisely we can tune our positioning and structure, assuming we have developed some semblance of good positioning and structure in the first place.

My redundant thoughts to the muddle.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by churn-ging
Hi everyone,

I was just wondering what you find more important, sensitivity or structure?

In my current understanding of wing chun, I find that structure is more important because with good structure, you will develop good sensitivity.

What is all of your opinions on this?

I just thought I'd repeat the question for everyone.

[Mr Punch]

KJ's final paragraph is correct.

Deathrobe is as funny as his name. Is that too sensitive, or not sensitive enough?!:D

I don't say silk floating in air... unless I'm talking about really really **** good mash.

I say spuds, or tatties.

[Tom Kagan]

Both and neither.

Sensitivity and structure are just two attributes a practitioner can develop and/or rely on. There are many other attributes that you can develop and/or rely on. (There are also quite a few attributes that are not quite as readily developed and/or relied on.)

When you train, the attribute(s) in which you are weakest and hamper your improvement are the most important ones to develop as much as possible.

When you Maai Seung Jong, the attribute(s) in which you are strongest and keep you from harm are the most important ones to rely on as much as possible.

[Ernie]

structure is interchangeable sensitivity is universal.
sensitivity far out weighs the importance of structure .
structure is just a empty pose that requires other things to give it purpose
1. another person applying some sort of pressure across the structural reference point .
2. sensitivity to read the pressure and use that information to your benefit.
in respect to a real fight not chi sau.
you may never get that reference point , and if your skills depend on that cohesion then you are a limited and crippled fighter .
sensitivity has many possibilities , body sensitivity is universal and can be developed in any venue that has body on body contact , ma.,sports , hell even fun in the bed room . all these are forms of sensitivity .
eye sensitivity to read distance and set up timing .
also when structure fails and it will, sensitivity is still with you to recover .
the problem is we wing chun people like to make every thing fit into our little box of shapes and postures and theories , so we tend to over analyze and seek a false sense of security in our assessment of things .
we want to justify all the time spent in stances and doing poses , but it's all a load in the real world , so we continue with the old questions , how do I deal with a jab , or when I get to the ground , obviously the structure is not enough or else we would have the answers,
we need the sensitivity to adjust to a live situation , the structure may or may not help with power distribution or deflection.
so my rather long winded summary comes down to this , every fighting art and athletic endeavor has it's form of structure , for balance ,speed ,power and so on , but only the ones that develop sensitivity seem to stand out ,
wing chun, bjj, Filipino arts , boxing , and so on. the rest just practice dead poses '' structures ''

[yylee]

So far I like Kj's points the most.

just for the fun of logical thinking :)

If one's body is tense, can one "sense" properly? Or could the tense muscles feed you with the wrong signals? For example, while we are tense, even when the opponent is not imposing a lot of pressure on you, you still feel like a mountain is coming down on you. Sounds familiar? Thus it is only when the body is relax can one sense properly.

Having said that, if one wants to have both structure and sensitively. One still needs to relax too. Sounds logical?

But, the biggest question is:

how can we preserve structure with optimal relaxation?


ps: From my shallow understanding, a structure is a posture that can sustain incoming pressure without tensing of the muscles; not even for a split second. This could mean "grounding" the incoming force elsewhere and/or focusing all the body energy towards the bridge point (and it could take a great deal of sensitivity to find out exactly which spot to focus energy at).

[KingMonkey]

Ernie, I havent read a contribution from you that I didnt like.

[Ernie]

KingMonkey


why thank you i just try to keep things honest and real with out all the technique mumbo jumbo ,
you then endless were is your wieght and what angle is your fook ,
and my all time favorite because my teacher said yip man did it that way.

[PaulH]

While I hate Ernie's replies as they often made a mockery of what I always believe to be the truth of combat, his truth has that " secret of eloquence and of virtue, the basis of moral authority: it is the highest summit of art and of life." - Henri Frédéric Amiel

ttt.

Regards,

[KingMonkey]

Paul I'm not claiming to be a great fighter or anything but it just seems to me there's too little appreciation around here of the realities of an actual fight against an aggressive opponent who genuinely wants to kick your ass.
From reading his posts Ernie understands the truth of combat and like me is training to deal with this as opposed to live in some perfect WC technique bubble just begging to be burst by the first real situation that comes along.

[PaulH]

KM,

No one claims he is a great one when he actually tested his skills against other good fighters. Ernie got his butts kicked a few times, so now he speaks mostly out from his pains and sorrows. Ha! Ha! I do appreciate his reality and insights as well as the those of the vast silent majority here in this forum who did put their skills to the test.

Regards,

[EnterTheWhip]

With out structure, sensitivity is an empty concept.

[PaulH]

Elementary, my dear Etuu. I sense your trap, now do you see my structure? Enter the bait. Ha!Ha!

Regards,

[Ernie]

paul
'' forgive me for going of subject of the thread but in some ways it all ties together''

While I hate Ernie's replies as they often made a mockery of what I always believe to be the truth of combat, his truth has that " secret of eloquence and of virtue, the basis of moral authority:
let's have you answer a question
what if I told you had to spend time in a maximum security prison , and I gave you time to train for this , how would this effect your training .
you would be in a place were people don't care about life and are by nature predators , they lift weights to pass the time hunt in groups ,and use make shift weapons .
you would have to face all these possibilities , multiple attackers , bigger stronger meaner people, weapons and so on .
to prepare for this would you continue on the master of a bong sau, or train every day to improve your stance , or would you get versed in weapons , ground ,get in shape in case you have to run or climb and jump , get conditioned to take abuse by sparring , single and multiple partners ?
I know this is a very concentrated example but in a diluted form the streets have these same type of situations , that's what I keep in mind , that's what keeps me honest .

[PaulH]

I see your point, but man, what a bug's life you will live if you think like that! Having tasted a little of it in Cambodia and had no wish to come back to this training ground, I devote the rest of my time to appreciate the finer things of life while they still last.

Regards,

[Ernie]

i agree i have no desire to let my life digress back to those days whenlets say sun light was then only thing i yearned for .
but it's a way to check your honesty meter as to what the world might throw at you.
it keeps me humble , and helps me look at how i'm training and how much time i spend on something that may never be used '' like the perfect tan sau''
and how to break my training up into different things like being in shape , and weapons , and big mean guys with gloves that wish to prove a point .
be well paul we will get together soon for a work out.

[Alpha Dog]

Under the Bridge

Sometimes I feel
Like I don't have good structure
Sometimes I feel
Like my only friends
Are the techniques I live with
Bong, tan and lap da
Lonely as I am
Together we try

I bend at the knees
'Cause Sifu he says to
I walk circle-steps
'Cause I'm told that I can
He sees my good deeds
And he praises me daily
So I never worry
Now that is a lie

I don't ever want to feel
Like I did that day
Take me to the place I love
Head shots all the way

It's hard to believe
That my techniques could fail me
It's hard to believe
That my chisao it blows
At least I have gam da
The center line loves me
Lonely as I am
Together we try

I don't ever want to feel
Like I did that day
Take me to the place I love
Head shots all the way

Under his bridge, sink down
Is how he drew some blood
Under his bridge, sink down
He could not get enough
Under his bridge, sink down
Forgot all of my stuff
Under his bridge, sink down
I got it handed to me

[PaulH]

AD,

Your pen is more sensitive than my fists. Okay, here is my poem written many rains ago. It's all about delicate eye sensitivity with or without WC structure.

Autumn Rain


Rain keeps falling
From the dark sky.
Could I forget
How you once cried?

Leaves keep falling
From the maple.
Will it live on
When leaves are gone?

Must love endure
Joy and sorrow,
And clouds gather
When skies are blue?

And it rains on . . .
More tears falling. . . .
Will love endure
By tears alone?

Love keeps pouring
From your dark eyes.
Could I forget
How you once smiled?

PaulH

[Alpha Dog]

Bravo!

[KingMonkey]

Nice one AD !! LOL

Errr... Paul.... right - good luck with that.

[Ernie]

ahhhhhhhhhh group hug

hey!
get your hand off my a$$

[Alpha Dog]

Hugs/a$$grabbing is for grapplers.

[PaulH]

AD,

You know how the Americans love poetry! Ha! Ha! So I'm very grateful for all the feedbacks so far. I would love to read other people's poetic works too if you would like to share. Just for the record, while I prefer sense and sensability, it is not a call for emotional or sentimental overtures. There, are you satisfied, Ernie?

Regards,

[Ernie]

a bottle of whiskey , a cuban cigar , and some good ole american blues is all the poetry i need .
and of course a beautiful woman '' pure poetry in motion''
now i'm satified

[Alpha Dog]

Throughout history real men have written real poetry and reaped a lot of real reward as a result, including real babes, real good booze and real fine cigars. Again, bravo.

[burnsypoo]

of course we're gonna have poetry in a thread about sensitivity and structure!

[Alpha Dog]

Actually I had a conversation last night with someone about this very issue, and afterwords I thought some more.

This morning it dawned on me that poetry provides a great analogy, in fact, to WC. A poem that is all sensitivity without any structure makes one puke; whereas sentiment controlled by structure (line, meter, length, rhyme, and so on) can be brilliant.

So I will have to say that structure is the MORE important element.

<takes bow>

[PaulH]

AD,

I like your poetry analogy to WC. To me it is just an immaterial thought supported later by the syntax of the language to make an impact on the hearer's sense and sensability. The mind leads and the body follows. So Sensitivity is more important as it is the seed that set the wheel in motion.

Regards,

[PaulH]

As you point out, AD, you need both sensitivity and structure on impact. So every body is right and wrong if they look from the extreme end of the rainbow. WCners like us being properly indoctrinated by the doctrine of the center line from the day we are born eschew such radical approaches and prefers to be safe in the center where all the wonderful colors shine gloriously in any rainy days.

regards,

[burnsypoo]

The author has an intent, and is looking to express it as purely as possible. Structure and sensitivity are means to an end.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by burnsypoo
The author has an intent, and is looking to express it as purely as possible. This is why structure is most important, to maintain that purity. Sensitivity is the means.

[yuanfen]

CMA has often been passed on via poetry and song.
Good poetry has a way of catching nuances that can be easily missed.

And without structure- sensitivity can mislead you- such as mistaking one's own felt tight muscles for a good punch.

[EnterTheWhip]

Yuanfen, I like to feel my muscles too!

[yuanfen]

ETW- And what does that do?

[yuanfen]

If you feel tight muscles your wing chun punch could stand mprovement.

[foolinthedeck]

definitely yuanfen,
its easy to punch air and feel strong because arm is tense. puncing relaxed doesnt make you feel like such a superhero, but in the long run its better. i recently rolled with a very strong guy, kept relaxed and enjoyed a few nice clean hits with no power much more than if they had been tense however.