Shoulders hurt in Chi Sao

[PHILBERT]

Whenever I do Chi Sao I get pain in my shoulders. I keep relaxed and try to keep the forward pressure on, but my shoulders burn like hell as if I just did a bunch of exercises with them. It starts out fine at first, but whenever I go into Bong Sau (even correctly) it hurts like hell. Anyone got some ideas how to relieve the pain?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
Whenever I do Chi Sao I get pain in my shoulders. I keep relaxed and try to keep the forward pressure on, but my shoulders burn like hell as if I just did a bunch of exercises with them. It starts out fine at first, but whenever I go into Bong Sau (even correctly) it hurts like hell. Anyone got some ideas how to relieve the pain?
My first suggestion is to see a doctor, followed by a physical therapist. :D

It's possible you are not doing the technique properly. If you fail to complete the Bong Sao elbow, you can get a sharp pain in your shoulders. If your partner gives you energy down and forward while your elbow is out of position, it can rip your shoulder.

Good luck finding and fixing the problem.

Regards,

[Neurotic]

I think you may find if you look at your technique, you are actually lifting up with the shoulder, rather than pushing forwards.

Instead try and push forward using relatively the same muscle groups as you normally would for fuk sau, tan sau etc.

I think painful shoulders is one of those things we tend to go through as we refine our technique and learn how to work things properly

Then we get pain in other places :D

[OdderMensch]

Also where on the shoulders does it hurt? Sometimes your back is stiff without you realizeing it, this overworks the deltoids and put strain on the top of your shoulders. If your arms themselves are stiff, you might be fighting yourself as you roll, this for me hurt near the top of the arm/bottom of shoulder, and went away with practice.

[S.Teebas]

Whenever I do Chi Sao I get pain in my shoulders. I keep relaxed and try to keep the forward pressure on, but my shoulders burn like hell as if I just did a bunch of exercises with them. It starts out fine at first, but whenever I go into Bong Sau (even correctly) it hurts like hell. Anyone got some ideas how to relieve the pain?

You need to change how your doing things. If you do the same things you'll get the same results. Experiment with adjusting your body structure ....eg your spine (try to align each vertabre ontop of the next from the base to the top) Creating the correct environment allows your body to mroe properly support your shoulder joints. Keep your shoulders back and down.

You also shouldn't be pushing anything. WC trains to be uncommited, when you push your commiting to a certain direction. Just move along the correct path. The correct path will encounter little resistance. Also, you might be forcing your way through the poon-sau palatform instead of reacting directly to the energy in more free/appropiate way. ie poon-sau isnt the only way to move.

[PHILBERT]

My shoulders hurt on the shoulders next to my neck and around the upper back area when I do it. It feels like I just stood on my hands and did shoulder presses, it burns of exhaustion.

As far as back alignment that might be a problem. I have a back condition called Sherman's Kyphosis that is a curvature of the spine, and it causes some problems in my life (I.E. barely hitting me on my back hurts like hell). I won't get surgery, 6 months in bed plus loosing a lot of weight, and its not getting worst.

[fa_jing]

Ask your partner not to exert so much downward pressure on your arm. That's usually what tires you out. If he won't cooperate, hang your arms on him and see how he likes it.


That, and more practice, and minimize the raising of your shoulder.

[[Censored]]

If you've only been doing WC for a year, this burning is natural and to be expected. In fact it is a good sign, that your body is changing.

When you first started practicing your stance, didn't your legs burn too?

[foolinthedeck]

you should feel something though...
i'm not advising no pain no gains etc, but they will be hot and ache i would think, its how u see the pain.

my shoulders get hot and 'painful' but its a good pain that could keep me rolling for hours as opposed to the exhuastion of lifting weights. shoulders do keep alot of tension so its partly this, but i dont think i'm that tense or they wouldnt call me cotton wool arms

i'd recommend nice relaxed qigong, especially something tailored to the shoulders, wild goose is nice because of all the wing movements - you would think that birds must have really tense 'shoulders' wouldnt you?

[Phil Redmond]

Philbert, check with your doctor to see if you have rotator cuff problems. I developed rotator cuff problems after 13 years in other WC versions. Some people are taught to hold the shoulder down while rising the elbow in bong sau. This can cause rotator cuff problems. I was told this by my Doctor. When I first met William Cheung he told me the same thing. That's why the TWC bong sau allows for the shoulder to rise with the elbow. Then years later I met a Sifu under James DeMille, (the student of Bruce Lee who developed Wing Chun Do). James DeMille realized this and changed the shape of their bong sao.
Phil

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
It starts out fine at first, but whenever I go into Bong Sau (even correctly) it hurts like hell. Perhaps your "correct bong" is not so correct... Explore ways of using the bong that are painless. You might find the "correct bong".

[Lindley]

Philbert,

There are many ways to play the Chi Sao. Since you say your shoulders hurt, you should create a routine to develop stamina and build up longer playing over time. Practice Luk Sao (rolling hands) under varying conditions, which should include very relaxed play and 30 second intervals of high forward energy.
Sounds also like you may just be using "too much" over committed energy. If you find yourself "fighting" or struggling out of positions, try to stop immediately and examine how and why you got there. You must learn to "let go", as struggling is not correct. You should play more dan chi sao and intermediate exercises like luk sao, jip sao (catching hands) and jip sao jow sao (running hands).

Focus your energy on your elbow. This can be accomplished when playing your Siu Nim Tao form. As the tan sao and fuk saos come out, just even say to yourself "elbow" and you will be astonished how you suddenly can feel what is going on at the elbow. Physiologically, your shoulder is involved in these movements, but you can reduce this tension by concentrating on the elbow.

Finally, as mentioned, you may be playing your tan sao to bong sao transition in a way that allows you to bear the full weight of your partners fuk sao. This transition should have some movement that "pulses" in and out while "sticking". Also, do not play the movements too rapidly or mechanically - take your time and experiment with broken rythems. Play more Chi Sao with less rolling. Take breaks when you feel the shoulders burn too much.

The burning of the shoulders should serve as motivation to look for a resolution!

Good Luck with your Kung Fu!

[mun hung]

With all the stupid shoulder injuries I've had thru the years (separations and a torn rotator) from gymnastics, sports, and weightlifting - not once have I had any sort shoulder pains or injuries from using the bong sau. And I use it in many different applications. I hold my elbow slightly above a relaxed shoulder (for someone the same height) in chi sau and it does'nt give me any sort of problem at all.

IMHO - raising the shoulders or tensing them up is usually the cause of shoulder fatigue. It also puts you in a structural disadvantage. Never raise the shoulder - just extend it. Think about the pole.