breaking the stance

[namron]

I was thinking of a move I saw a hung gar exponent do, which set off a vague memory of other wing chun families using the same techique.

It involved a deep stance into the oponents (inside?) front leg to uproot him and take balance.

The hung gar guys used this to effect, mainly I think because of their low stable horse stance when attacking.

Does any other wc style use this on a popular basis?

How is it usually performed (footwork/hand position) and what are some of the advantages/disadvantages you have encountered when using it?

Its not usually taught in twc and it looks like an interesting technique.

[Mr Punch]

Hook your leg round his calf on the outside - works best on the lead leg, plus if you try it on the back leg, you should be in range to hit him hard anyway! (If you try it on the inside it can turn into a tricky throw situation, so don't try it unless you can cover it with some judo or something - or you're very sure of your stance).

You can get there using huen bo, but in my exp this is often too slow, or a triangle step (which can be a little unstable), or even flicking your lower leg over his knee. The latter can incorporate a knee to just above his for added fun. This knee 'folding' action reminds me personally of bong sau: a transition move which doesn't have much of a solid structure, more a guiding one...

And tweak!

You'll be surprised at how little a move is needed, and how shallow a stance (I daresay the hung gar one has a slightly different purpose) to disrupt his structure, cause a lot of pain to the nerves around the knee, lever a set up for a takedown/throw, and/or get him retreating.

I would possible recommend a lop sau to bring yourself in if you want to follow through with a throw, or just a plain old couple of strikes if you want get him retreating.

Main disadvantage: tying yourself up through sloppy positioning, too much tension, lack of rooting (opening of stance of SLT should sort that out).

Main advantage: for me, nobody else in my school seemed to be able to do it...:D


OMMV.

Have fun.

[reneritchie]

In Sum Nung WCK, we have some material from Fung Siu-Ching which uses the half horse (not very deep but similarly shaped) for stuff like that. Most branches have similar derived from the 6.5 pole footwork and application (done without the pole, have fun by making the opponent's arm into the pole).

[anerlich]

Much of the dummy involves positioning the front knee and foot in reference to the dummy leg so that the opp's front leg is controlled.

Any time you can position your foot so as to lock his in place, you can shift your bodyweight forward, by stepping or whatever, and put pressure on his knee and ankle, affecting his balance and taking him down.

IMO the best direction to apply pressure is to pin the ankle and apply pressure to the inner medial serface of the knee outwards, ideally in a semicircular fashion. This is diffucult to resist and requires little effort if done right - the mechanics used are almost identical to those of a low ankle shoot in freestyle wrestling.


Its not usually taught in twc

It is in the TWC school I attend.

[namron]

Thanks for the replies, but I its not quite what I was getting at.

The technique I was refering to basically pushed/barged into the opponents front leg while maintaining a low stance.

This had the effect of opening the opponent lead leg upseting his balance and stance.

It did not look like any of the sweep techniques I am familar with and didnt lift the leg to hook or drag the opponent.

Matt the technique you describe sounds like what I am already familar with, (ie: reverse leg hook sweep), but thanks for the feedback.
Some times on the reverse sweep I can get better leverage by applying pressure to the opponents shoulder with one hand and base of lower back with the other and following through in one smooth motion with the sweep, very hard to avoid going down as your balance is effectly broken by the time the sweep finishes the job.

Rene could you elaborate (Fung Siu-Ching) , sounds like this might be what I saw.

Anerlich, I think am familar with the locking technique you mentioned although this is not one I train regularly nor the one I was seeking info on.

It almost always demonstrated as a kind of after thought (imo), say locking the knee up from a cross stance (knee/ankle brace) after completing another technique. Is this it? The semi circular roll outward definately sounds familar.

I guess if you dropped it in quickly and were proficient it would really cause some damage but I always found it a bit fancy and personally feel more comfortable dragging the front leg out using a sweep.

[Gandolf269]

Are you talking about stepping through the opponent? If so, I think all WT/WC/VT ffamilies do that. It not only upsets the opponents balance but adds your body weight to your punch. We step down the centerline, and the opponents front leg may or may not be there, but it's not our aim. Otherwise, the leg locks mentioned earlier work to control the opponent and keep him within punching range.

I hope this helps

[Shuul Vis]

Thats one of my favorite techniques. I move in and break thier root/ stance with a powerful horse, then as they step to re adjust themselves (they fall if they dont) i throw out a quick front snap to the groin. Its almost unblockable.

[namron]

Shuul Vis/Gandolf269, sound like the one ! Thanks.

The TWC clubs I've trained with dont use this move but it interests me.

I think the reason we dont do it may be because of feet placement in the cross stance position.

Are you stepping through so your lead leg is positioned on the inside of the opponents lead leg?

If this is so it would explain my our system does not advocate it.

BTW I personally think it looks quite good !

Ta

[Shuul Vis]

namron

i do this usually when im really close and things are getting a little to much for me to handle. I just drop through them into a horse. In some instances i dont really even step but simply sink. As far as which leg i step with and through, i step with my lead leg and to the inside of thier lead leg. This is not something you do from far away though. Like i said, i usually throw out this technique when im really close and things are getting crazy. Its a great move, and ALOT of styles use it, especially tai chi.

[Shuul Vis]

Also, if your school doesnt like that stance and youll end up taking **** for using it, then you can use your basic wing chun stance instead of a horse. You just have to make sure you sink through them making your center of gravity lower than theirs, and make sure that you are stepping into a stance that is stable enough to get the job done. In my opinion, when done from very close to the opponent, the horse stance is the best option. But not if your horse sucks from not ever training it.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by namron
It involved a deep stance into the oponents (inside?) front leg to uproot him and take balance. You'll find it in the pole training of course, where the low horse stance is incorporated.

[Gandolf269]

Namron-
Are you stepping through so your lead leg is positioned on the inside of the opponents lead leg?

Yes, we are stepping down the centerline. So, if the opponents legs are split by the centerline then we split his legs with our lead leg. Since most people (not WC) don't stand with both feet 'on' the centerline this is what usually happens.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Gandolf269
Otherwise, the leg locks mentioned earlier work to control the opponent and keep him within punching range. Sounds like a good take down opportunity.

[Gandolf269]

Enter the Whip-
Sounds like a good take down opportunity.

Your right. But, opportunity for whom? Takedowns are always a possibility, especially at short bridge range. If I'm initiating the leg lock, then I probably control the situation, not vice versa. My view, personally, has always been that if a good grappler wants to take you down, odds are the fight is going to the ground. I've seen this to many time not to believe this. But keep in mind, most of the people you meet on the street aren't good grapplers, and that's really what we train for - 'self defense on the street'. If I knew I was going to go up against a good wrestler (i.e. in the ring), I would be a fool not to work on defending against those types of offensive moves prior to getting into the ring. Just like if a wrestler was going up against a striker, he would be a fool not to practice defending against those types of attacks. Even though we both hope to fight using our style, you have to cover all bases. But, because I train for self defense on the street, not in the ring, I would rather spend time working on my WingTsun and to take that type of fight to my attacker (we do work on defense against basic takedowns though, but not alot). But I guess it all depends on where, and against who, you think you will be using your art. :)

[namron]

Originally posted by Shuul Vis
Also, if your school doesnt like that stance and youll end up taking **** for using it, then you can use your basic wing chun stance instead of a horse. You just have to make sure you sink through them making your center of gravity lower than theirs, and make sure that you are stepping into a stance that is stable enough to get the job done. In my opinion, when done from very close to the opponent, the horse stance is the best option. But not if your horse sucks from not ever training it.

Shuul,

I think its just the doctrine with the twc golden rules of footwork placement, so this kind of technique almost never gets a look in which is a waste.

ie:
In a cross stance use toe to toe or just inside your opponents lead leg. Parallel stance toe to toe or just on the outside of your opponents lead leg. (Victor wrote a bunch of stuff on this recently if I recall correctly)

Personally I cannot see the big disadvantages in using this as an offensive move to break balance and keep working the opponent from the inside but would probably adjust my footwork to what Im used to.

I'll have to find some time to play with the technique a bit, any good flow on moves?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Gandolf269
Your right. But, opportunity for whom? Takedowns are always a possibility, especially at short bridge range. If I'm initiating the leg lock, then I probably control the situation, not vice versa. Not necessarily, just because my opponent has decided to stick is foot foward (initiating), there is ample opportunity to take control. Perhaps the structure of his stepping is wrong. Perhaps it's good, but mine is better, therefore neutralizing his attempt.


My view, personally, has always been that if a good grappler wants to take you down, odds are the fight is going to the ground. I've seen this to many time not to believe this.You're probably right... but what I've seen mostly in the "martial arts" world, is very few martial artists. In other words, there aren't very many really good people in the martial arts world, so of course it's a losing game for most.

[Shuul Vis]

namron,
"any good flow on moves?" I dont really know what you mean there. Do you mean moves that flow well after that technique? If so, for me it really depends on how the opponent responds to the unbalancing. I usually do a front snap to the groin or dan tien as they readjust because its really hard to see coming let alone respond to. And if your school is against it, then i say just play around with it alot if you think its a technique you can find useful since your teacher wont guide you on it.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
but what I've seen mostly in the "martial arts" world, is very few martial artists. In other words, there aren't very many really good people in the martial arts world, so of course it's a losing game for most.

Why might that be? Could it be because many MA students get frustrated when 6 months of training fails to turn them into Bruce Lee, so they take up sparring or start studying a little of this and a little of that, all the while expecting that this "do my own thing" approach will make them into a star?

Do they want to learn MA or are they studying MA as a form of psychotherapy, hoping to cure whatever ails their fragile, broken self-esteem?

I can think of many who fall into the latter category, only a few who fit the former one.

[EnterTheWhip]

I think you're right on all of those counts, Alpha Dog. But, I think a very important point is that in general, martial arts have deceived the people, causing your points.

[Alpha Dog]

That is true too. A lot of people get sold snake oil.