Grappling mentality

[red5angel]

I am think I am noticing something and was sort of thinking about it. It seems to me that often, people tend to get locked up when they get put into a grappling situation. What I mean is there they are throwing punches or kicks, some guy gets a hold of them and all of the sudden they just seem to stop! Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me? One hypothesis I have is that they suddenly become preoccupied with balance and staying on their feet. however this seems to be detrimental to what it is they are trying to accomplish.

[MasterKiller]

I concur. I've noticed the same thing about myself whenever I get grabbed.

[red5angel]

Masterkiller, do you grapple?

[MasterKiller]

Not really, but we are taught some grappling/throwing/ground fighting in my school.

My Sifu says all Kung Fu consists of Striking, Kicking, Seizing and Throwing, so when we spar we are encouraged to get in close and go for a take-down and submission.

[Chang Style Novice]

all Kung Fu consists of Striking, Kicking, Seizing and Throwing

Sometimes known as Da Ti Na and Shaui. No real point except to say that's it's not just your Sifu who says this.

edit -

And that as far as I'm concerned, Na and Shuai should be considered stand up grappling. Actually, maybe na could be ground grappling as well. And a sweep from the guard, I guess that would be shuai...

Hmmm...

[red5angel]

What do you think is making you lock up?

[MasterKiller]

Part of the problem is probably that I'm just an average fighter.

The other part of the equation is that as soon as I get grabbed, my focus shifts from me keeping the guy at arms length (long fist) to reversing whatever technique he is trying to apply. I think I'm more worried about reversing his grip than I am about executing my own techniques.

[red5angel]

Here is another observation, in general it seems those who keep fighting, even when they are wrapped up in some way, tend to come out better then those who try to reverse? This changes I think when your main focus is grappling, a reversal may become natural.
Felipe Bedo postd a fight clip, and it was a good example. Everytime those guys clinched, the yellow guy froze up, it was like he just stopped fighting!

[Merryprankster]

He didn't freeze up. He was trying to stay on his feet. When you don't know how to do that, it looks pretty bad.

[rubthebuddha]

red5,

good point about that clip. i think it's human nature to, once we're grabbed, to grab back. the flaws in this innate behavior are obvious:

1. merry prankster grabs us. if we try to grapple with him, it's pretzel time.
2. sevenstar grabs us. if we try to resist with strength, it's smoosh time.

i can understand this behavior being innate -- if an animal attacks us in our cave, our natural reaction is to fight back with what we have. however, as you know from your own training, there can be better responses than first nature, but those require time and repetition to make them reflexive.

[red5angel]

MP, what would you say is the best response? Trying to stay up or continuing to fight?

Rub, good point, the whole grabbing back thing can indeed be second nature to someone who doesn't know better.

[rubthebuddha]

red5 -- heck, even i know better. whether or not i DO better is a different story.

[Merryprankster]

How are you going to effectively fight back with strikes if your center's gone?

[red5angel]

MP, could you clarify with how it relates to this?

[Merryprankster]

These guys are grabbing on because they know they are tipping over but don't know exactly what to do about it. When you're about to fall down the stairs, you reach out for the railing.

They know if they keep striking without paying attention to their balance they go over. They know that grabbing on to something will keep them upright, and that's gotta be better than getting dumped. Problem is, they don't know HOW to recover their center/balance. So they get thrown anyway.

This is my recommended recipe defend the takedown, when out of danger, beat on him. :D

Every other response is low percentage, IMO.

[fa_jing]

I think it's lack of clinch training, Red5. If you have moves in your arsenal from the clinch and know how to fight for position from the clinch, then you won't freeze up or try to hold on aimlessly. Once I learned some clinch stuff, the only reason I would lock up with the opponent is if I felt I was getting dominated and needed to gather energy.

[red5angel]

so by "defend the takedown" you suggest learning not to be taken down?

[Merryprankster]

It's a must. You have to be able to reclaim your center. If somebody starts taking your balance, beating on them is going to get you a mouthful of dirt.

Reclaim your balance, disengage on your terms and once safe, commence beatdown.

[fa_jing]

Actually I have punched my way out of someone grabbing my kick before, both in sparring and in competition. We actually had a drill we practiced where your partner held your leg with one arm and a focus mitt in the right.

[red5angel]

What about for a not so good grappler, or someone that doe snot grapple?

[Merryprankster]

Actually I have punched my way out of someone grabbing my kick before, both in sparring and in competition.

Yeah, but if I know you at all, you had a clue about how to stay upright when somebody does this. If you don't, bye bye...

Red, even then, if you know clinchwork, now, YOU'RE the "good grappler," and he's the guy that's probably going to be on the losing end :D

Why punch and take a chance when you can reclaim your balance and fight back while HE'S at a disadvantage.

[red5angel]

true that MP, I see your point. So in all of these video clips and local matches I have seen and made my observations through so far, would you say that its a balance issue and that is why these guys "stop" fighting? They are trying to keep their center and don't know how?
If you found yourself in a position where you just couldn't seem to keep your center, what would you do?

[Merryprankster]

Me? I'd be thrown. If my center is irrevocably lost, I've exhasted my options, personally. Somebody better than me may have kept the other person out. I didn't.

Once I recognize the inevitable (and there definitely comes a point of no return), I need to land:

1. Safely.
2. As advantageously as possible.

[red5angel]

Do you choose to go down, only when your options for staying up have been exhausted?

[Merryprankster]

Depends on what context. If I'm just working takedowns, yes. Sometimes, in sparring, I might just be lazy and let him have it because I know I can ***** him on the ground.

Tournament time, I don't give it up. I go to the ground on my terms--be it take down or guard pull.

Or, alternately, he's better than I am on the feet and I get *****ed :D

[MasterKiller]

Do you choose to go down, only when your options for staying up have been exhausted?

I don't know about MP, but that's my wife's philosophy.;)

[red5angel]

I know Masterkiller, I am trying to teach her not to do that. ;)














just teasin man....

[Merryprankster]

Masterkiller is correct.

As I found out Saturday, that IS his wife's philosophy.

*I have the scratch marks to prove it*

[Lao_Peng_You]

In addition to what's been said I'd like to add that most strikes are rooted at the tip. That is, many people focus on their fist or foot, rather than the joint(s) that precede them. In this way, when they are grabbed at the wrist for example, their center is taken from them. It's a tricky thing for this example because they cling and are stuck to a particular technique. To a grappler this is good for them as they rely on their body for the root when they apply a technique, whether it is throwing, groundwork, escapes, or a finishing move.

The good Kung Fu practitioners that I've fought will throw their partner the instant they are grabbed. They don't resist the grab, but have techniques built around a grab that sets up the throw. In this way they don't rely on their hand strikes as the definition of what they do. Their root lies back through wrist-elbow-shoulder-spine-waist-hip on down. They are not taken by a grab at the wrist or arm or even leg, but use the grab as an opportunity to take their opponent down by overcoming their center.

I think distance plays a part as well. A person who likes to fight from a middle to longer distance will naturally be more uncomfortable at a close distance and more apt to tense up from a grab. This tension is what someone who is good at grabs and throws builds their techniques around, and so can easily take this person's center.

[MasterKiller]

I know Masterkiller, I am trying to teach her not to do that.

If you can teach her to like kissing it, then you have found your first disciple.;)

[LEGEND]

REDANGEL...Clinch Training is a MUST for SELF DEFENSE. Yes...it is quite possible for you to KO an opponent before it gets to a clinch situation. But from numerous VIDEOs( non UFC...the DVD street fight videos ) u can see that a lot of real fights end up in CLINCH MODE.

Clinch Training is a part of SOME kung fu styles...and some of them are **** GOOD at takedowns and throws. As in the KF video u saw...the guy in BLACK was obviously an expert in throws. Clinch Training is simple and u can probably get this training at a JUDO or Wrestling club/school.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
One hypothesis I have is that they suddenly become preoccupied with balance and staying on their feet. however this seems to be detrimental to what it is they are trying to accomplish.

From my POV, I disagree completely with this. IMHO, a fight is won by gaining superiority: of position, balance, and stance. Alot of people call this philosophy "grappling." In which case, IMHO, "grappling" is synonymous with "functional" or "skillfull." Personally I think functional/skillfull martial technique of any kind will focus on this; where they might vary is in how they capitalize upon this superiority. Alot of people seem to think that if you break someone's balance and stance, you have to throw them; but you can just as easily hit them.

It's possible to defeat someone without superior position, balance, and stance: when you are bigger, stronger, faster, healthier, more prepared, and more skillfull than them. One difference, IMHO between someone focusing on sport and someone focussing on self-defense, is that the former can largely rely upon these variables being in their favor; the latter cannot.

Back to the topic, I think balance/position/stance should be the priority when someone clinches you.

[red5angel]

LEGEND, absolutely, I think all of those basic skills should be learned.

Chris M, for the most part I agree with you, I don't think it is that they are trying to keep their balance and can't, just that they do not know how. They freeze, where as when you see a skilled "clincher" they are moving around and jockeying for position.

[rubthebuddha]

red5 -- you just put down one very important word: freeze. the second someone tenses an arm, you can use their arm as leverage. if soomeone tenses their whole body, all the better.

[rogue]

, or someone that doe snot grapple? I've heard snot grappling is very effective. Matt Furay will be releasing a tape series on it soon.

Good thread, I like the new improved Red!;)

[red5angel]

I am practically a master at snot grappling. why I remember my first experience, it came naturally. I was in 2nd grade and the school yard bully decided he wanted to beat the crap out of me, so he did, and at one point he threw me to the ground and snot flew from my nose and all over the front of my shirt....


Rub, yep ;) we like that tensing don't we. I have to believe that grapplers must train to respond to that sort of thing as well?

[Oso]

r5a, when you said striking in the lead post were you including forearms/shins, elbows/knees & shoulders/hips ?

I totally agree that once the clinch is on you better be thinking about how to keep your center/balance and, if going to the ground, figuring out how you are going to land w/ the least amount of damage and the most advantageous position...as MP has said.

but, I feel there is a middle range between the fist/foot and the clinch that is missed. It sure doesn't last long but if you could get one or two more shots in before the clinch then he might be dazed a little more than if you didn't.

Of course, you would not have to freeze during that small second that this range is open, which I guess is what you were first talking about.

[red5angel]

how about in the clinch?
--- Anus shades

[Oso]

I have no anus. Thus, I am protected in the clinch.

Of course, I'm due to explode anytime now....


...and I'll give anyone a jar of marmite if they can tell me what TV show I just referenced...rather obliquely but someone is bound to remember that joke.