Timing the bridge

[apoweyn]

This question is going to be clumsy. I warn you now. But here goes:

When you're bridging, you're trying to initiate contact and then gain control of the opponent's limbs, yeah?

When do you time that? Do you try to initiate contact as the opponent strikes out? As he's retracting? Or do you dive right in and try to take them right off the bat?

Related question: Lots of systems have trapping, block and counter, etc. In the books, they seem to rely on the person's arm remaining out there. In real life, though, good fighters are quick to retract the arm. So you can't stand there working various transfers, blocking maneuvers, etc.

So, when do you apply these sorts of manipulations? Or do you do them at all?

Anything is fair game. Everything from bong sao (wing-like block in wing chun, yeah?) to eskrima's tapi maneuvers. Pak sao. Etc.

How often are you able to actually pull off limb work more elaborate than a quick parry and counter?


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

I guess I have never thought too much about when I am trying to bridge or make contact. In reality it is hard to say when contact will be made, that is why I work so much at hubud and chi sao, getting that sensitivity so that when it does happen, I am ready.

[Merryprankster]

I parry and shoot. Or slip and shoot. Or slip and clinch.

Do those count as bridging? :)

[rubthebuddha]

i don't think it's as important to bridge with someone's limbs as it is to simply go forward with smacking them in mind, and if bridge is made, knowing how to respond. a reflex like chi sau should only happen when the way to your target is not clear. i don't think it's a matter of timing as much as it is a matter of intention. i want to hit my target. if something gets in the way, i will go around it, move through it or just clear it out of the way.

[red5angel]

after reading MP and rubthebuddhas' respnse, I think to me bridging is sort of a passive thing for me, it happens when it needs to and I don't think about it much, if that makes sense.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I parry and shoot. Or slip and shoot. Or slip and clinch.

Do those count as bridging? :)


Does as far as I'm concerned. Hell, getting repeatedly dumped on my arse by you is one of the things that prompted the question.

[apoweyn]

rubthebuddha,


Originally posted by rubthebuddha
i don't think it's as important to bridge with someone's limbs as it is to simply go forward with smacking them in mind, and if bridge is made, knowing how to respond. a reflex like chi sau should only happen when the way to your target is not clear. i don't think it's a matter of timing as much as it is a matter of intention. i want to hit my target. if something gets in the way, i will go around it, move through it or just clear it out of the way.

I'm glad you said this. It hits on a couple of things I've been thinking.

I think intent is a big part of the equation too. But when I've drilled sensitivity drills in the past, the 'intent' has usually been to do the drill right. Not much emphasis on actually changing what MP would call 'positional dominance' (is that right?). Maintain range, accept the feed, feed back, flow on and on. The focus has been on the drill, and therefore, on the arms doing the feeding. Rather than on the trunk or head that is the ultimate objective. Or the change in position (e.g., getting past the arms to take the back).


Stuart B.

[norther practitioner]

When do you time that? Do you try to initiate contact as the opponent strikes out? As he's retracting? Or do you dive right in and try to take them right off the bat?

I try (try being the opperative word) when the arm is at full extention. When it is there it is easiest to deflect and trap, or to manipulate unless the person is leaving that back hand too close to the body and I'll go for that. Hope that made any sense.....

[red5angel]

Ap, wouldn't it sort of pertain to what you are trying to do? For example, to break a joint, waiting to full extension might be optimal, where as joint locking or blocking/parry, you may not want to wait that long.

or am I way off here?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


I try (try being the opperative word) when the arm is at full extention. When it is there it is easiest to deflect and trap, or to manipulate unless the person is leaving that back hand too close to the body and I'll go for that. Hope that made any sense.....

This is the thing. I've tried that too. But it seems to me that anyone with any retract on their technique isn't going to leave their hand out there very long. So I've been thinking that stepping up and intercepting it on the way in or following it back in after it's thrown is preferable.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is (hopefully) the sh-ttiest description I shall ever provide for anything.


Stuart B.

[Black Jack]

Apowyen,

Don't know if this well help but here goes, as a FMA gent you know it is often about closing and opening the gate, if you are on the outside you might want to "close his gate" so you have a limb trapped/crossed against his own centerline. If you are on the inside you might want to bridge and "open his gate" so you can get access to all the inner goodies.

IMO this is all about the footwork, your forward drive and intital position which is something which often can not be picked. If you use footwork/forward drive to spring on your entry, use your lower body to shock the attacker, then I think bridging works better.

By this I mean if I enter on the outside, it helps that I use my lower body to offbalance you on the bridge, such as if I slam my knee/shin into that sides leg to extend it and shock you up, think sikaran, plus you know its not going to be a 1-2-3 beat thing, you are going to be moving on the 1/2 beats with the footwork, check, and strike.

Hope this mess added something:D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
Ap, wouldn't it sort of pertain to what you are trying to do? For example, to break a joint, waiting to full extension might be optimal, where as joint locking or blocking/parry, you may not want to wait that long.

or am I way off here?


No, I think that's right on target. But it raises the next question. How feasible is that? How successful have people been at 'catching' techniques at full extension and applying that ever-popular elbow break, for example?

(No, not the actual break. Just the right positioning.)


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but outside of drilling I often feel like a good "Catch" was more luck then anything else. I know the training increases those chances, but it doesn't seem to happen or atleast be picture perfect often.

[Black Jack]

When I do catching techniques I am not looking to reach out and catch the strike. It helps me to wait for the strike to come into the range of my catch...which kinda looks like a lap sao....combined with a short pivot to pull them offbalance for me to slam a forearm into their elbow.

[apoweyn]

Hope this mess added something

Black Jack, that's beautiful.

So do you practice something like hubud with these ideas in mind? Incorporate sikaran, crashing in, etc.?


Stuart B.

[rubthebuddha]

part of it is also having made bridge and just following their energy. if your right arms are crossed, outside to outside, and they are pushing, a simple turn to the right to encourage that arm to lock while bringing your left arm up to just above the elbow results in a elbow lock. the smoother you do it (the less force you use), the quicker this will happen and the more likely mr. bad guy won't realize it happened until too late. i'll use the typical wing chun maxims:

stay with what comes -- if your meet bridge, stick with it (and let the force go by you and lock them out like i just said, for example)

follow through when the hand retreats -- on this, or another thread, someone mentioned following a retreating arm back into the body. this is an opening and you need to exploit it.

attack when disengaged -- if you don't have a bridge and you're going forward, that means your opponent will have a broken nose and worse. don't go about it looking for a bridge. go about it trying to hit them and deal with the bridge if it's there. it's not about bridge -- it's about clockin the other dude in the grill.

[fa_jing]

I think as said before that if you apply the trap it needs to be either on the way out, or following on the way back. Trying to time a trap or parry to right when the punch is at full extension is near impossible. With a kick it's slower, you may be able to deal with it near full extension.

As far as bridging, I practice two ways - initiating with the first blow and dealing with any obstructions by either removing the obstruction or going around it, or else passively waiting on his move and neutralizing it followed by entry and engagement. For instance, sometimes I will take the clinch by neutralizing the lead hand, riding it using my sensitivity to keep it blocked away, then neutralizing the inevitable rear hand strike as well using my other hand. Followed by knee, takedown, or clinch strikes.

[Black Jack]

Apoweyn,

Yea, I try.

Sikaran or some call it panajackman, is basically as you know just combining low-line kicks, stomps and levers with your high-line attacks.

Lets say you throw a punch and I enter from the outside, if I am able to tap-check it on the entry, it helps if my 45* footwork ends up smashing my knee into your outside thigh nerve, the old irish toothache, or going angle on the knee or shin to shift you offbalance or even to stomp/trap on a foot or blast you with my hip.

With a little pain down below it makes the upstairs work easier. Heck a good full bore knee to the outside thigh is nasty and could drop the guy right there.

Just thoughts

[Black Jack]

"its about clockin the other dude in the grill"- rubthebudda

True dat!:D

Trapping can get over complicated IMO. The goal is to hit the guy. As an entry their are also destructions that do not require catching, such as guntings to the bicep/tricep, cross-arm chops to the arms, elbow to the bicep if deep on the inside, just even punching the guy in the bicep or back of the hand, knee to the outside thigh, impact strikes to the limbs and nerves, stuff like that.

[yenhoi]

You can bridge on action (when limb is extended - easist, because you know where all yours and his 'pieces' are) before action (respond to retraction..) or after action (while opponent withdraws limb... most common...)


What happens after contact is made depends entirely on the 'energy' your being given from the opponent. Which you can kinda shape and old based on what types of motions and limbs and energys you give to your opponent.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

How often are you able to actually pull off limb work more elaborate than a quick parry and counter?

Often. Hubud, chi sau, and pummeling drills have done me good.

:eek:

[No_Know]

Hi. :~>

MerryPrankster parries then shoots he put.~

You cannot beat his timing consistantly. Nor is your understanding of balance enough. No attack against MerryPrankster. Go for that thing where you put your arms together and heads close--clinch?.

Those low level with high level won't work at your level of execution against Merry Prankster. Balance again. And to start you might should have mirror stance but narrower--your left leg to his right leg.

You can't Beat him, yet you Can at your level read him--you get to tell whenn he's about to butt you to the floor/mat :-)

When you do the touchy feely rotating caressing arms often done in the head to head standing grapple thing, see if he guides your arms and elbows end up up. Get them low(er)ish.

"When you're bridging, you're trying to initiate contact and then gain control of the opponent's limbs, yeah?"

No. t necessarily the inside ist the target. Go through, around, under over the gate to enter the house/temple(s) :-)

The connection seems to get them out of the way enough to do whatever you studied to succeed. Strike the body, head hurt control...whatever...

You will press the snow before you touch the ground. Their skill determines howheavy the snowfall on the ground.

"When do you time that? Do you try to initiate contact as the opponent strikes out? As he's retracting? Or do you dive right in and try to take them right off the bat?"

It varies But eppe'? fencing study will help you understand better.



Perhaps the inside of your elbow should be within the outside of your shoulder for both sides of your body.

Very good

[Merryprankster]

Perhaps the inside of your elbow should be within the outside of your shoulder for both sides of your body.

If this means what I think it means, then no_know has caught the correct.

[rubthebuddha]

elbows pointed down and in front of you to inhibit someone getting inside?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by apoweyn
When you're bridging, you're trying to initiate contact and then gain control of the opponent's limbs, yeah?

Not necessarily. People have mentioned this, but you can "bridge" lots of ways. Any kind of aggresive closing action will bridge, as per MP's slip and shoot. Aggressive, closing percussion will also bridge; if your opponent has given you his center cause he's too busy backpeddling and flinching, he's been successfully bridged. In my POV, bridging means changing the scenario from one where you try from no-contact to "out-box" your opponent with precision, speed, and strength, to a situation where you are controlling the position, balance, and stances in play.

It's worth pointing out that people will often do the bridging for you, especially in self-defense and related scenarios.


When do you time that? Do you try to initiate contact as the opponent strikes out? As he's retracting? Or do you dive right in and try to take them right off the bat?

When people emphasize acting on "full extension", it sounds like they're advocating acting when the opponent's technique is it it's maximum power (provided they have some skill). It seems to me that acting early or acting late are both better. There's also the issue of double-time versus single-time and so on... I'm not sure if empty-hand martial artists talk about this much, but fencing has a rich vocabulary for this, and it's applicable to empty-hands (oops.. No_Know said this allready; I guess I'm just applauding).


Lots of systems have trapping, block and counter, etc. In the books, they seem to rely on the person's arm remaining out there.

Yeah... I think some confusion comes when people think of those techniques as the bridge. IMHO, they're not. Those techniques only work if you can control position/balance/posture; in other words, once you've allready bridged. Doing them on someone still in control of their p/b/p will probably only work if they're willing to play the same game, or if you're much stronger/faster/better.


How often are you able to actually pull off limb work more elaborate than a quick parry and counter?

Consistently, if you approach that limb work as what you do with having achieved superiority, rather than as a method of achieving superiority.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
elbows pointed down and in front of you to inhibit someone getting inside?

If your elbows are pointing out, you've allready lost alot of your postural superiority (ability to generate force and react constructively to force), from weak posture. "Hanging" elbows are also good tools for guarding your ribs and "dropping" into incoming body parts (percussively and/or not).

[rubthebuddha]

then wing chun IS the best. :D

kidding. i just like to see principles of wing chun backed up by folks of other arts, and vice versa.

[joedoe]

I once got a friend who has done some boxing to throw jabs at me while I tried to bridge. I found that trying to initiate and maintain the bridge at full extension of his punch was almost impossible for me to do. After many failures I discovered that for me, I had to initiate as the punch began and make contact while his arm was still moving forward. Then I could make him my b!tch, but otherwise he would nail me with his jab.

Bridging on a jab is a lot harder than on a cross or a hook, but it all depends on how much they commit to the strike and whether you can manage to break their balance.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
then wing chun IS the best. :D

:p

I've seen alot of wing chun that looks to my eye to be going in the other direction: having the elbows too cramped towards the inside. I suspect they'd comment my elbows look to loose though... the general principle is sound, anyway, IMHO.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by joedoe
After many failures I discovered that for me, I had to initiate as the punch began and make contact while his arm was still moving forward.

Maybe this works because you're acting here when his posture is weaker, and when he has motion and tension commited which you can use to effect his posture and balance?

Oh, you said pretty much that at the end... I'm just so earnest about an interesting martial topic here that I wanna keep replying and replying! :D

[yenhoi]

Well this is a thread about timing, so single-time and double-time are probably appropriate... you dont always bridge with arms/legs/limbs.... steel too.

Beat, off-beat, the teachnique called beat(concerned with timing and beats...), red beets, borken-rhythm, epee, etc. We just need some consistant terms...

:eek:

[No_Know]

"When you're bridging, you're trying to initiate contact and then gain control of the opponent's limbs, yeah?"

If you base your actions on the opponent's action(s), then, , if person is trying to damage you they will try to connect center range--body, head, pelvis, neck. Sticking out a limb covering a range of those areas and out according to your reaction time, something might bump into you on the way in. You barely have to "initiate " contact to get this bridging thing.

I "bridge" to keep from getting hurt--the barking dog a block away is not as scary as the virus that started killing me yesterday-2. If I can see it/tell where it is/when it moves then I can work with it. I use the waist from the ankles to avert penetration; the shoulders, to up/down/in/out/forward/backwards; my elbows to angular range my forearms/hands; my wrists to give power to my hands--I use my hand and fingers to crawl/inch/edge...but part of that is leaving or pushing off for the purpose, center range strike.

Hands, forearms, elbows, aftarms, shoulders, guide.

"When do you time that? Do you try to initiate contact as the opponent strikes out? As he's retracting? Or do you dive right in and try to take them right off the bat?"

Timing depends on the effect would-liked. It's like American football, the fu?rther in they get, the fu?rther out you have to go.~ So the timing is if you want the center range get in as close as you can to the limbs. bounce/bump/eliminate...them to connect at/through/into the center range.

This seldom will happen and you have to work the opponent's limbs to wear them down to get uninhibited access to the center range.

When the hands are on the center range is the best situation to damage to your favor these multi-purpose objects.

No arms, fewer attacks.

"Related question: Lots of systems have trapping, block and counter, etc. In the books, they seem to rely on the person's arm remaining out there. In real life, though, good fighters are quick to retract the arm. So you can't stand there working various transfers, blocking maneuvers, etc.

So, when do you apply these sorts of manipulations? Or do you do them at all?"

They Are pictures and the demos and what you see is moving to entice people into interest and so people can grasp it.~ There is a Point at which the arm is closest to straight. The point can vary with each punch, as well as each person. The point is Target)

When the hand reaches the point at which they were aiming. It withdraws. Estimate where the punch is intended. Keeping your hand close to center range and midway of the opponent'(s)' reach. When they punch the hand near center range. The hand near midreachmoves to the aftarm of the elbow. You are now in position to get the lock frame. Punch this--Wham! The sudden lock (not to be maintained) shocks/stuns. Only when your hands are where the attackers wrist/hand and aft arm of elbow iscan you effortless ly-ish get And maintan a lock. Positioning/leverage (not just of your arms) determine sucessfulness of attempt.

I haven't gotten to use it much because I prefer incapacitation to feeding my ego with a wildcard player. I use my awareness to stay away from bridging situations. getting them to not want to fight is my preference...I don't strike because it makes me more vulnerable. I attack limbs and stay away--one strike ; one kill think--only significant thingies.

How I fight depends on current weaknesses, ease of movement (weight, development, flexibility), Ego, theories I'd like to test, how much I feel I could die, how much I feel I could be injured, what injuries I might sustain...

"Anything is fair game. Everything from bong sao (wing-like block in wing chun, yeah?) to eskrima's tapi maneuvers. Pak sao. Etc.

How often are you able to actually pull off limb work more elaborate than a quick parry and counter?"

Really often. I meet the person on their side of their midreach. I can easily connect with the close arm. I willingly do not try to keep contact if they withdraw a limb behind their toes. -ish. I can guide initiated attacks ( I do not move them; I give their shot arrow direction).

In Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu, Squirrel connection with guidence ability and awareness (usually around wrist) is called Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu, Squirrel's Snowflake.

There are perhaps more factors but these seem fairly on topic or relevant.

[Lowlynobody]

Not sure if this has been said already but - bridging can be done with just about any attack (your's) and if done right the attack will get to the bridge (if they block/trap/or otherwise attempt to stop it else you prob hit them anyway), cross the bridge, and strike the target. It is not a wholy defensive method. Indeed it is best used in close as that way you can be in controll while striking.

If your at the right range and the oponent offers a bridge (be it via attcking, etc) then why not destroy the bridge and rebound off it to strike your target?

Or think Sut Kuil with the right then Mor Kuil with the left.......eh? :)

[Oso]

just one comment that I haven't seen yet.

a couple of people have mentioned positioning and black jack talked about his 45 stepping.

a big help to me in bridging is combining my arm/hand speed w/ my footwork speed to help catch up to the person I'm trying to bridge with. It is difficult to time the connection just right and more so if you are just trying to use your hand speed. short shuffling moves back or forward depending are if you are trying to connect with the opponent as he moves to you are away from you.

that may have been redundant to what has been said so far...it's early here:(