Human Nature?

[red5angel]

It so often seems that our natural reactions to a situation are more dangerous then any reaction we may learn in training. Do you think it is possible that those reactions aren't as bad as they might at first seem? Is it possible and does anyone train those natural instincts?

[Black Jack]

You mean like the "flinch" in relation to fighting?

[red5angel]

hehe, well the flinch is a bad example, I can't imagine how that might be turned around, except possibly as a feint.
We were talking on another thread about the human instinct to grab something when you are falling, and how when fighting, one might instinctively grab his opponent. This, more often then not seems to be a bad idea, unless applied by a really good grappler. I will think of some more examples of human instinctual reaction here in a bit.

[rubthebuddha]

the flinch is there to protect what's most important to us -- our head and all its faculties. that's why you typically hunch down, close your eyes and bring your hands up to cover your head. think of it this way -- our knuckle-dragging ancestors that didn't do this usually got smashed upside the head and paid the ultimate prices for it -- death and not being able to pass on genes. things that did flinch wound up taking the taking the brunt of the impact on the top of the skull rather than the face (thick bone vs. eyes, nose, mouth, etc.) or on the arms. these folk were more likely to survive something nasty and pass the genes on.

think of it like turtles -- they have a highly developed shell to protect them. turtles that don't have a natural reaction to stuff their head and limbs inside when the nasties happen are more likely to become dindin. turtles that have the proper reaction just get their shell scratched up before the attacker loses interest.

reflexes like the flinch are not bad. humans are just smArt enough to figure out how to exploit it.

[Black Jack]

Good post rub,

I don't really think the flinch is a bad example. I look at it from a natural biomechanical reaction which leads to a defensive posture.

The trick is training or mutating that defensive posture into a proper guard from which you can respond from effectively. A good flinch guard to take a hit would be a kali/silat/kun tao style elbow bone sheid or maybe a boxing cover.

With a lowering of stance/gravity to help with the cover and to spring up into the attacker. Which often comes with the hunch naturally.

[red5angel]

Godo point BJ and good post Rub. I see what you are saying on the flinch and turning it into something more functional.

[Black Jack]

Red is it just me or is this a martial discussion on kfo? Am I sniffing clue or something:D

[norther practitioner]

that's why you typically hunch down, close your eyes and bring your hands up to cover your head.

I usually call that the standing fetal....lol....




The trick is training or mutating that defensive posture into a proper guard from which you can respond from effectively.

Which I think is very hard for some people, myself included. I have to believe that a good number of martial artists still have a crappy flinch mechanism, mine is ok, as my arsehole friends are always trying to test me.

BJ, another one of the things that really needs to be addressed is the immediate reaction after the flinch (which you mention). Many can't just do the hunch then have that spring back up, thats why they get pummelled after the flinch. I have seen many classes that train the hell out of the flinch to a defensive stance, then a million counters, none getting ingrained.....

Good posts RTB and BJ....:)

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Red is it just me or is this a martial discussion on kfo? Am I sniffing clue or something:D maybe that's your problem. instead of sniffing adhesive, you're sniffing a friggin board game! :D

red5 -- think about your wc training. the natural reaction if someone grabs us is to tense up and fight that strength. now, if an ogre of a man grabbed you, trying to overpower him is a losing proposition. instead, you go with the energy and either move with it, around it, or whatever. you don't try to go straight against it.

[red5angel]

LOL! Martial Discussion?! Where?!:eek:

Are there any other human instincts we learn to use better in martial arts? In my experience so far the opposite has mostly been true, but it may be hidden as well. I often train to not react the way I would naturally.

Rub, that was one of the things I was thinking of! Is it possible, instead of training to go against your reactions, to use your natural reactions?

[norther practitioner]

RTB, I think thats why so many martial arts train to "use your opponents stength/power/momentum against them," which I think we just picked 3 of the hardest things to bring from forms to drills to sparring to fighting.:)
Hey, there is nothing like that new game smell is there Black Jack...

[Black Jack]

Sniffing board games is like crack to me. I get a ******* just thinking of spending time alone smelling shoots and ladders.:eek:

[rubthebuddha]

red5,

course it's possible. it can work, too. natural reaction when someone smacks me in the head is to smack them back, harder. one of the things all forms of life have innate is hedonism -- maximize pleasure and minimize pain/discomfort. studying/training/observing can make this better or make it worse.

dogs don't like fleas, so they will scratch and bite at the tender spots. dogs also like nookie, so they'll hump your leg. training takes this to the next step and teaches the dog that they'll get kicked across the room if they try to hump too many legs.

i don't like getting hit upside the head, so an easy answer to getting hit is to hit the source of my pain upside the head even harder. if i hit them hard enough, they won't ever hit me again. studying teaches me that this can yield jail time and unwelcome butt sex, so i temper my response to the initial hit.

it's also a natural reaction to, when you see 40 guys running at you with clubs, to bolt the funk outta there. observing movies can teach us that no, in fact, defeating 40 guys is actually an easy -- and very cool -- thing to do.

the moral of this story? dogs are smArter than we are.