W.C for the street?!?!

[Miles Teg]

This is a popular statement:
Wing Chun is for the street, it doesn�ft work in the ring because the ring limits the W.C arsenal of attacks

OK Im not a fan of putting W.C in the ring or anything, I don�ft think it is necessary and perhaps a little restricting to certain techniques one can use. I don�ft see any reason why it couldn�ft work as well. I don�ft see the value in it, though, unless you are out to try and prove W.C is superior or you are the best fighter around. But anyway, I don�ft want to talk about the pros and cons of ring fighting.

It kind of p!sses me off when I hear people say W.C only works on the street. Under what circumstances is this true?
Every fight Ive been in or even seen has always been dirty and unfair. The numbers are either uneven, or one person is terribly drunk and easy prey, or an aggressive person approaches someone unwilling to fight, or a number of other unfair circumstances.

My point is this, real fights rarely seem to show any skill. I�fm not even taking into consideration the likely possibility of an aggressor possessing a weapon of some sort. So what makes us think that our chances on the street are going to be any better than in a ring? We are talking about something highly dangerous and unpredictable.
If you are the aggressor looking for fights, BOOM! Your chances of winning a street fight with someone will increase dramatically, but hopefully none of us fit into this category.

My conclusion to the whole problem is forget about street/ring fighting and just enjoy practicing Wing Chun. Someone on this forum once said that according to some research done, the chances of people getting into fights after learning the martial arts greatly decreases (he/she gave an interesting percentage too), unless that person actively seeks fights. I believe this to be true. I was often picked on as a kid so I learnt Karate to look after myself. I got good at it, but rarely had the opportunity to use it since learning it. It may have something to do with the way one carries oneself when they are confident, but I personally believe there is some other special law at work.

I know this is a controversial topic, but does my logic make any sense to anyone? If not, why?

[bougeac]

hi, i think too many people think that martial arts and fighting are one and the same...

sure, martial means "war", and therefore one would expect a "war art" to prepare you adequately for the street but im afraid its just not like that!

a lot of people (i used to be one of them), regard arts like boxing, muay thai, judo and jiu jitsu as being sport arts and yet all of these arts contain ALL of the fundamental elements that you need to prepare yourself for real fighting (especiallly boxing/muay thai) you will have a REAL agressor trying to either knock you out, choke you out or tap you out. there will be lots of adrenaline flying around, lots of puffing and panting, punches/kicks/strikes missing their target, submissions and ground techniques not working the way youd like : because the person up against you will not be compliant and will in some way or another be trying his hardest to beat you...

with the above arts youll be improving your striking accuracy, your timing, distancing,endurance and adrenaline control.

now, all of the "war arts" may well at one point in time, been practiced in the above "live" manner, but that certainly doesnt seem to be the case in general anymore....

i like the idea of pressure testing my art, putting on head guards and a gum shield and mitts and trying to pull of my wck against an uncompliant partner : its quite a shock when you do it the first few times, its not like doing chi sau or lop sau or cross guard sparring and you will learn a lot about how effective the art truly is HOWEVER, theres not many people out there who are up for doing this...

the sad thing is, i reckon the majority of people who go into martial arts ARE doing it so they can survive a street attack (im sure some say that they are doing it just for fitness or some philosophical path bullsh*t, just because they find it distastefull to admit they want to learn how to fight), but are they training how to fight or just a bunch of fancy looking shapes??

art for arts sake is great as long as you realise that unless you train that art under real pressure to find out what works for you its very likely that if you find yourself in a real situation that art will fail you...

ive deliberately not talked about wing chun much in this as basically i believe ALL the arts can work in the street, its just down to how hard you train and how far you are prepared to go out of your way to find the truth...

in summary, although it sounds like a cop out, fundamentally wing chuns scientfic principles most certainly CAN work, in the street and in the ring, BUT you have to specifically train for those arenas, you wont win a fight on principle alone...

[KingMonkey]

I totally agree with Bougeac. If you want it to be of use in a real fight then you need to train it under similar circumstances.
If you are the aggressor looking for fights, BOOM! Your chances of winning a street fight with someone will increase dramatically, but hopefully none of us fit into this category.
You dont have to be looking for a fight to be the aggressor once it kicks off. In fact if you're not training aggression as a key part of your WC and fighting strategy then that is a bad sign IMHO.

[John Weiland]

bougeac,

Why are you studying an art in which you have no confidence?

Wing Chun won't win any fights for you if you don't believe in it and yourself.

[yuanfen]

Adjustment- an important wing chun principle. If you represent wing chun, you first have to be good in wing chun- then adjust
your wing chun to different contexts.
The wc folks who I have seen the ring werent very good in wc in the first place. Many good wc fighters some with real street experience have not been fascinated enough with cage fights.

You cant underestimate the contexts including understanding and optimizing the use of the rules. Good wing chunners can be trained to adapt to the use of sports gloves if needed and still use their hands in little ways- different from boxers. As NTC pointed out earlier-
you have to have additional preparation for the ring- stamina, wind, staying power. Ho Kam Ming used to train full contact wing chun fighters for fights in HK, Mainland, SE Asia- their training was longer and more rigorous than for those who wanted to learn sufficient self defense or the art.
Augustine Fong's senior student awesome Danny Chan adjusted and pretty well walked through all the martial arts matches that he entered in in the 70s- with varying non wing chun rules.

Street fights generally dont last long and the surprise element and the environment are importnat variables and requires a
greater degrees of alertness, cleverness and courage than the ring or the kwoon. Wing chun folks can do those too and some have.

The wing chun cafeteria is extensive- you just have to make your selection wisely- depending on your goal.... what do you want to do?

[Miles Teg]

Im really just talking about the street.
Challenge fights etc are not street fights. They are in a controlled environment. Even if they have no or little rules.
To help illustrate my point let me give you an example of a situation I was in once:

One time I was walking down the street with my friends and someone came up behind me and grabbed my shoulder. When I turned around he smacked me in the head (It left me with quite a black eye afterwards but at the time it didn�ft seem have much effect on me). From the momentum of his swing he swung himself right around and had his back to me. Yay! You may think. Perfect opportunity to take him out. I went for it and threw not more than one punch before my friend came up behind me and gave me a bear hug to stop me from fighting. Then I got several more punches from the same guy and his mate while my mates arms were tied around mine. The disappointing thing was that there were four of us and only 2 of them but my friends weren�ft willing to do anything. So I left the fight not being able to do anything but get some good shots to my head.

This is what Im talking about. Ive seen many fights in my city and I can honestly none of them have �echallenge fight�f circumstances. Here are some more examples

*My friends dad got hit on the head with a bottle from behind in a park and got knocked out

*My friend successfully overcame a gangster that he brought to the ground, only to be punched in the head by another gangster was about to win
*A very drunk guy I saw says something stupid to some tough guy and gets the worst beating Ive ever seen

*An intimidating young guy steps up to an scared young guy, and verbally intimidates him before smacking him over

*Me and 3 of my friends got in a fight in a park (same park as the one above actually). My friend took a few hits before pulling out a little knife and stabbed the other guy 4 times in the back�c�c�cthe rest of us were shocked and stopped being friends with him obviously.

The above situations are �ethe street�f
Never have I seen someone say �eOk lets go one on one, are you ready, ok lets go�f. Im sure it happens but don�ft give me that W.C for the street crap. W.C works best for no rule challenge fights I can accept.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Miles Teg

...
...
I went for it and threw not more than one punch before my friend came up behind me and gave me a bear hug to stop me from fighting. Then I got several more punches from the same guy and his mate while my mates arms were tied around mine.

Sounds like you need new friends.

That's not WC's fault.

[yuanfen]

Miles- wing chun develops the person-their awreness, reaction, position and accuracy. Its the person not wing chun that does the work on the street.

You cant blame wing chun for your friends' poor judgement in holding you back in a way that allows you to be hit. Depending on the details- perhaps you could have reacted before your friends tied you up. The devil again is in the details.

Once two Rotties and a Schipperke attacked my dog. If I had held on to him or back- he would have been mauled. I turned him loose and turned to the owner and demanded immediate control over his loose dogs. Things ended well for my dog and me..

A surprise hit on the head? Sometimes stuff happens. Some heads are tougher than others. Once when absent minded(my other hat),
I hit my head on a low sign... I attribute my reflex of stopping and not continue
walking to wing chun- avoididnga complete forceful collision.

Wing chun is about self control. The drunk was out of control.
Major rule of self defense- dont put yourself in unnecessary danger, The drunk was doing just that.

The scared young guy needs to learn a good MA.

You did the right thing in distancing yourself from the guy who pulled a knife.

Wing chun when integrated into the person's behavior can affect
many aspects of life. It prevenred me from getting burnt once
when I sensed the heat early.
A well timed pak sau once on the street once helped me stop an attckers swing and scared the hell out of him and prevented escalation..

[Miles Teg]

Good points Yuenfan

Edmund
That fight was way before I started W.C. I was probably about 17.

Im not blaming W.C for anything I love it. Im also not saying other martial arts are more suited to the street. Im just trying to point out the unpredictability of the street and the unfair conditions that they hold.

[bougeac]

"bougeac,

Why are you studying an art in which you have no confidence?

Wing Chun won't win any fights for you if you don't believe in it and yourself."


hi john, at no time in my post did i say i had no confidence in my art wing chun or myself, far from it, i believe in myself and am very confident with my skills, i have used them in real situations and they have not let me down...

this is because i have pressure tested my skills and know how I will react under pressure , in a real fight the art (any) can help but you have to be able to deal with adrenaline, the loss of fine motor skills and all of the other inherent problems you will encounter in a REAL fight, you will not experience these factors whilst practicing chi sau with your mates...

you HAVE to put the pads on and put yourself under pressure, only then will you see if wing chun WORKS FOR YOU, just because you study wing chun does not mean you can fight with it, it would be wonderfull if that was the case but unfortunately from my experience it isnt...

my question to you is, how can you believe in ANY art unless you have tested it under pressure, just because sifu says so doesnt mean it will work for you...

having total belief in an art without pressure testing it sounds like blind faith to me...

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by John Weiland
bougeac,

Why are you studying an art in which you have no confidence?

Wing Chun won't win any fights for you if you don't believe in it and yourself.

Well done, Grendel!!

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Im not blaming W.C for anything I love it. Im also not saying other martial arts are more suited to the street. Im just trying to point out the unpredictability of the street and the unfair conditions that they hold.

Certainly.

I'm not saying WC is a streetfighting art but I don't really follow your logic. You said "don't give me that W.C for the street crap."

A lot of the anecdotes you mentioned were basically bad circumstances. There's not a lot you can do about that aside from avoid those scenarios.

[Deathrobe]

Ive been trying real hard to figure out after reading forums all over the internet.

I have drawn my own conclusions ,

I am not trying to offend anyone, just making an observation.


Lets look at some things if you in general have always been able to fight. I know i have i got into it a few times during my elementary/high school yrs. then later on during frat type parties.


then u already have been exposed to fighting. the dumbest thing i have seen on the net is people trying to justify styles as being art or for fighting.

HELLO PEOPLE any thing that increases your ability gives you an advantage.. the way alot of you talk u make sound like the world is filled with peace loving people were fighting only happens on the dark corners or in the ring..


or that there is a pro-fighter behind every corner waiting to jump you.



9timesout of 10 you are just going to be fighting some ignorant fool who probably deserves a good beating..


ALSO, if you are over the age 20 and havent figured out that u need to punch and kick then u may never..


IF you are afraid to fight, there is no shame in being afraid to fight get pepper spray or something..

I am so sick reading conversations about what is street effective and whats not. ITs just a gimmick.


everything is street effective if you have half a brain and can use it.

I am going to assume

a.)your a bunch of children with nothing better to do
b) a bunch of adults with nothing better to do.


winning competions dont mean anything, only to people who buy the tickets.

Real fighting wouldnt last as long as alot of the "ring or cage fights"


Gotta give credit were credit is due. I beleive the pro-fighters are great fighters, i just think the fans are simple.


IF any of you think traditional martial arts arent effective you will one day be in for a rude awakening.

See lets break it down this way

people that arent afraid to fight
and people that are

which catagory to you fall in.


When i was 5yrs old my father made me get up and fight my own battles..

how were you raised.

i am secure in the knowledge that if someone gets in my face i can drop them fast.

the only people who talk about this stuff is people who either took a traditional art and got beat up.. DONT BLAME THE ART FOR YOUR SUCKAGE!!!!!

or people who have limited experiance fighting and really have no clue what they are talking about.


Eitherway this is a another total pointless thread.

atleast talking about techniques you can learn something


you guys talk about streets as some mystical thing

im 27 live between 2 major cities im amazied im still alive with all the danger of street fighting..


heres the truth u people train to fight call it whatever you want its more then the guy drinking a six pack every nite and eating potato chips..


oh nevermind keep arguing i need to go do something productive

[WCis4me]

Hi Miles,

I haven't had the experience of using my WC in any 'real life' situations but grew up in a tough city and have had a few 'other' experiences.

In your first scenario, wing chun wasn't the issue, and why on earth would your 'friends' do something like that? Shoot you could have been an awesome street fighter with no MA skill and still they would have made you lose.

In the second scenario, learning WC and other MA's would have had him more aware of his environment and he very well might have seen it coming and been able to do something about it.

In the third scenario, did he know WC? Was he using it? How well did he know WC? When the guy was on the ground and he had 'successfully overcome him' why wasn't he up and dealing with the other guy? Didn't he know how many people were there in the first place? Why wasn't he more prepared for the other one/s to get involved? Instead of 'finishing' off the guy on the ground why wasn't he trying to find a way out if there was multiple attackers? I mean that is good WC too (not to mention good common sense).

In the fourth scenario, its not good WC to get so drunk that you don't have control over what you are saying or doing. WC is about discipline too.

In the fifth scenario, if the intimidated young guy knew Wing Chun and how to use it effectively he could have overcome this situation. Chances are if he knew WC he wouldn't have been so intimidated in the first place.

In the sixth scenario, I'm thinking you should find another park to hang out in lol, but more seriously, if the other guy knew WC I doubt your friend would have gotten in to use a 'little knife', especially after taking a 'few hits'.

In all (except one) of your scenarios, WC either wasn't known or wasn't practiced enough to be an automatic and effective response. That is why everyone promotes training, training, training, and the saying practice makes perfect (or at the very least better) makes a lot of sense.
WC training could have been used very favorably (in different ways i.e.. mental awareness, forms skill, confidence, physical ability, etc) in all of the situations.
IMO WC is and can be very effective for 'street fighting'.


Vicky

[Miles Teg]

Hi Vicky
Yes I agree with those points. And yes any martial art (especially W.C) Im sure will increase your chances, thats a given.

I just think the whole 'W.C is more suited for the street' thing, is not viable. W.C suited to no rules/no protection one on one challenge fights....Yes.

And whats with the taking on multiple agressors thing? This isnt a Chakie Chan movie.

[WCis4me]

Hi Miles,

And whats with the taking on multiple agressors thing? This isnt a Chakie Chan movie.
LOL. I totally agree. That was why I noted looking for an exit when you see more than one aggressor is good WC and common sense too.

Regards,
Vicky

[Miles Teg]

Yep I agree.
When I said that, it was a sperate comment unrelated to the content of your thread, so I wasnt arguing with your point.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Yep I agree.
When I said that, it was a sperate comment unrelated to the content of your thread, so I wasnt arguing with your point.
Oh no no no, I didn't mean that. I figured you were talking about something else. I knew we were in agreement.
Thanks though,
:D
Vicky

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by WCis4me
That was why I noted looking for an exit when you see more than one aggressor is good WC and common sense too. I agree it's good common sense for anyone, but are you suggesting that Wing Chun is deficient when it comes to multiple opponents?

[Deathrobe]

Well i think you could use wing chun in competions but it would have to be blending with things like boxing, thai boxing, grappling etc...

Wing chun on its own is very effective for street purposes, because of gloves (even the small mma gloves) prevents u from doing things like lopping good or articulating your wrist to take the advantage.(in my humble opion anything that interferes with your ability to feel energy makes it a disadvantage.


Since wing chun is an economical system of fighting *pure wing chun* wouldnt be very effective in the ring. the quickest most effective techniques arent aloud in competion.


I hear people say all the time that finger strikes to the eyes or throat are hard to pull off.(not if you are fast and accurate its rather easy)

but there are tons of other simple ways to attack that are ultra effective and still would be considered illigal..

or worse a expert wing chun fighter walks into the ring and strikes internally so powerfully it ends up killing someone...(and i dont mean by super human blows i just mean by accurately and internally destroying all the important parts of the human body)

people underestimate internal power. u can tell the people that do because they lean toward the more external ways of fighting but internal power hurts much much more then external power.

you can inject chi through any kind of strike (fingers,fist,elbow,arm,legs.) once u get a feel for internal energy u start seeing the real potential to lay smack down on someone..

a good internal fighters jab is as powerful as someones cross..

But thats a secret only for people who have patience enough to learn and understand internal power.

a by-product of developing internal power is that the practiner after enough training just mellows out and has no desire to blast someone for pride,fame,glory,money,ego etc..

all that stuff is fleeting and never last, bruce lee really never proved he was the best fighter, however his charisma and artistry was awesome.

bruce lee once said(and im sure he stole it from somewhere else) all knowledge ultimately leads to self knowledge.

This is true



alot of people go around trying to figure out the best means of defense and offense what type of attacks work better etc..

is not the most important thing to do is to be able to master yourself..


there are many types of fighters in this world just as there are many types of people.

I think in general to many people live in thier little worlds thinking that were they are and what they are doing is somehow actually important. In reality there are billions of people doing exactly the same thing.


this post is directed to nobody in particular im just babbling
peace


Dont worry about the guy who is always fighting, worry about the guy who is always delving deeper into himself to find the true meaning of his existance.

We all seek to find something some of us find what we are looking for others continue to look in vain its said actually to never be fully satisfyied with who you are.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I agree it's good common sense for anyone, but are you suggesting that Wing Chun is deficient when it comes to multiple opponents?
No, but the more simultaneous opponents the more chance you are going to be overpowered, so if you can, get the heck out of there either before or during. However if you can't find an 'out' then if you know WC well your chances have increased dramatically at being victorious, IMO.
However, as Miles said real life isn't like the movies, no matter how good you or your MA are. No one is going to yell CUT and let you try again if you make a mistake in real life fight scenes.

Vicky