WT Fight Club

[Buddha_Fist]

Hi,


just found the following WT Fight Club Video:

http://www.wt-germering.de/

Go to "Fight Club" (duh). Watch out, it's about 11 Mbytes.

Regards,

BF

[Alpha Dog]

You just broke rule #1!

[jmdrake]

Cool Video! Thanks!

Alpha Dog: What's "rule # 1"?

Regards,

John M. Drake

[mun hung]

rule #1 - never talk about fight club.

In this case - definitely true.

[PHILBERT]

The Rules of Fight Club.


1st RULE: You do not talk about Fight Club.

2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about Fight Club.

3rd RULE: If someone says "stop" or goes limp, taps out the fight is over.

4th RULE: Only two guys to a fight.

5th RULE: One fight at a time.

6th RULE: No shirts, no shoes.

7th RULE: Fights will go on as long as they have to.

8th RULE: If this is your first night at Fight Club, you HAVE to fight.

Can't wait `til I get home from school so I can check the videos out.

[hunt1]

Imagine if they actually had a stance ! Fun to watch though.

[TjD]

i dont think i saw one shot with good structure in the whole thing.

it seems like their insistance on "straight blasting" (i prefer calling it chain punching) prevented them from doing any WC.


but mabye i'm being too harsh :D at least they spar - although i'm pretty sure it wasn't full power.

[burnsypoo]

they sure have a gorgeous club.

[TjD]

thats true... wish my hole-in-the-wall school looked like that :(


even our wooden man is falling apart! :D (or is that my fault...)

[fa_jing]

Looks good! Most of these students seem to be from 1 to 3 years experience - definitely too much chainpunching, headhunting and one-dimensional footwork, but as a sparring format seems very good - I especially like how the support beam was used as a valid part of the environment.

[pseudoswitch]

Good video, always nice to see Wing Chun people applying their art. Not much Wing Chun there though, was there? No bong sau, no tan sau. Just chain punching back and forth. Hmmm. Quite a few of those bouts ended up on the floor too, didn't they? I guess no one likes to be hit. Much easier to close and clinch.

If you have a look at the Escrima clip and then the Wing Tsun clip, you'll see the sifu seems to have merged the two arts. Is this common in WT kwoons?

That kind of sparring will definatley make them better fighters though i think, good stuff.

[reneritchie]

Good for them. Takes guts. Anyone who disses should please post a clip of themselves doing better.

BTW- The term head hunting makes me laugh. So does Bas' "Jezuzgriiist, Liver shot!"

[KingMonkey]

Yes it is quite common to teach escrima and WT at the same school.

[Merryprankster]

Looks like a slapfest. They'll learn. They're stepping up to spar so they'll get it right soon.

1-3 years experience. You're kidding, right? I would have thought 1 year at the most.

[fa_jing]

Most people can't even kick above their waist after 1 year, especially if they have no athletic background. I thought most of them were between 1.5 and 2 years exp.

True that one solid shot would be worth more than 3 of those "chainpunches," I blame the teacher for that.

But consider that this looked to be alot better than just Chi-sao, push hands, or point-sparring.

[kj]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Most people can't even kick above their waist after 1 year, ...

If they are with Wing Chun, why would they? :confused:

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[fa_jing]

Just an observation regarding the average martial arts class. Of course some people will progress alot more quickly.

But there are reasons to kick above your waist in class: Stretching, big target, conforms with some sporting rules or friendly testing of skills, or so that your partner can practice against such kicks.

[WCis4me]

Most people can't even kick above their waist after 1 year, especially if they have no athletic background.
I have NO athletic background except for early teens, am 36 now, and have been training under a year, I am not in great shape YET, and I can kick well above my waist.
I must be a freak of nature LOL.

[Ernie]

when two cars crash head on the out come is always ugly
ah if there were only such things as angles , distance and timing what a wonderful world it could be.
but they got heart and there doing what they know under pressure , hats off to them
at least there getting a good work and learning balance in motion

[anerlich]

Not bad, but I still prefer my Pride videos.

[anerlich]

Most people can't even kick above their waist after 1 year, especially if they have no athletic background.

Yeah, and 90% of streetfights go to the ground.

I was one of the minority, same as Vicky.

[anerlich]

If they are with Wing Chun, why would they?

Because they CAN. :cool:

[rubthebuddha]

props to them for pushing it, but very much of it did look like a chain punch fest. i can't say much more than two years experience, if that, because i don't recall a single elbow being used, much less regular chi sau. also, WT teaches chin na starting at around 2½ years or so, and i didn't see any of that, either.

to give them some benefit of the doubt, the gloves they have on aren't easy to work with. they're meant not just to pad, but to restrict the wrist and fingers to keep from injury -- this also means the gloves keep them from being used to their greatest extent. so while the hands are protected, they're not much more than clubs, à la typical boxing.

[AdrianUK]

hi all

This clip was mentioned on the wtdefence.com forum, they are beginners in WT and the fight club is in sweden or denmark, for more info check out the other forum

Regards
Adrian

[Buddha_Fist]

AdrianUK:

Correction. This is a different WT club and it's in Germany. No need to check out the other forum.

:D

[chen zhen]

We have a WT center with a fightclub too, in Denmark.

Has anyone seen the escrima clip? it's pretty cool. the sifu looks like a badass. like a hells-angels member, or something!:D

[Deathrobe]

my guess is 3yrs and they are probably told to fight like that.

[Alpha Dog]

That is just about the funniest thing I have ever seen.

[KenWingJitsu]

Good for them. Takes guts. Anyone who disses should please post a clip of themselves doing better.

Rene Ritchie has chain punched this thread with the correctness. Amusingly couch warriors sit back and pick, yet never spar lol.

[PaulH]

If you must criticize, at least be a little constructive or maybe just a little humorous. "Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves. - Brendan Behan"


Regards,

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Amusingly couch warriors sit back and pick, yet never spar lol.

On the contrary, that is what sparring too early in training does to Wing Chun.

[Phil Redmond]

Seems like some people were looking for textbook techniques. Real fights never look textbook.
PRedmond

[Merryprankster]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Amusingly couch warriors sit back and pick, yet never spar lol.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



On the contrary, that is what sparring too early in training does to Wing Chun.

On the contrary, that's what not sparring often enough does to anything.

[Alpha Dog]

Oh no, Merry, you are very wrong, very very wrong about that.

[Edmund]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Merryprankster
On the contrary, that's what not sparring often enough does to anything. [/QUOTE]

Dude, you don't even do Wing Chun according to your profile.

While I don't agree with Alpha Dog's opinion, how can you contradict it on an art you don't even do?

I'm having a hard time understanding why people who are not doing WC (and showing either little interest or even disdain for the art) would come to the WC forum and post their opinions on how to do WC better. Why do that?

[Merryprankster]

Because the question is actually more about training methods at this point, vice doing WC correctly.

Alpha Dog seems to fall into the camp of "teach them to do it 'right' then let them spar."

I fall into the camp of "teach them the basics, then let them play and refine as you go."

Different people have different ideas and even different ideas within that (ie, what constitutes the basics). No biggie. I find that most problems, regardless of style/system, are related to not sparring enough vice sparring too little or too soon.

Secondly, it's a public forum. Tough.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Alpha Dog seems to fall into the camp of "teach them to do it 'right' then let them spar."



Yup.

Learning good structure isn't easy, it takes time. It takes time to learn sensitivity too.

What are the appropriate platitudes? Haste makes waste? That's a good one.

Anyway, that's just how I feel about the matter, Merry. If your way works for you, go for it.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Merry,


Originally posted by Merryprankster
I fall into the camp of "teach them the basics, then let them play and refine as you go."
[/B]

Basics are relative.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[kj]

IME&O, sparring and practice with no foundation yields internalization of anything but foundation.

Balance and timeliness in all things.

Regards,
- kj

“Doa lo yut cheung hung.”
You are empty when you are old, because you were empty at the beginning.

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
props to them for pushing it, but very much of it did look like a chain punch fest. i can't say much more than two years experience, if that, because i don't recall a single elbow being used, much less regular chi sau. also, WT teaches chin na starting at around 2½ years or so, and i didn't see any of that, either.


Watch the clip again. One fighter threw about 5 downward elbows to ward off a takedown. (This is about 2 fights after the fight where the guy loses his headgear). Of course the takedown might have gone better if the attacker had stuck to trying to take him down instead of stopping and going for body punches. Also I did see a few guys use the "Wing Chun entry technique" seen in the first part of the dummy form.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[rubthebuddha]

i stand corrected. i have to admit a slight giggle when i first saw that helmet fly off like a tire in an autoracing accident.

i'm going to side with merryp on the sparring too early/not early enough argument. while developing the best technical skills possible is extremely important, for reasons of protecting oneself, i would rather have the skills and experience i've gained in sparring now. i feel i'm better off defending myself with decent technique and experience with sparring than i would be with just good technique and little experience with using it while sparring.

[red5angel]

Actually Merryprankster, Alpha Puppy falls into the camp of not sparring at all, or have you changed your mind again AD? He has surpassed the need for testing his skills and now teaches the WC youngsters what real fighting is all about.
I'm with Renee, atleast they are doing it.

[Merryprankster]

MerryP - have you ever come into contact with any good wing chun? or any other good 'internal' CMA for that matter

I think many of the internal guys would disagree highly that WC is internal.

I've come in contact with some San Shou guys (I was impressed) but no WC guys beyond a couple or four I met in the prep room at a fight. He did reasonably well to be honest (kickboxing). Once the guy noticed he was keeping his right hand low though, it was beat down city, but other than that, he did well. Saw some excellent forward pressure and some nice kickcatches and dumps.

Alpha, friendly disagreement--no harm done. I have a feeling we disagree probably on only when and frequency with respect to sparring.

Zhuge, basics are relative, but only to a point. Give the guy his basic principles, basic applications, his basic footwork, and let him go play if you're reasonably confident he won't hurt himself.

The bottom line is that to me it's more important to train away flinch response and the shock of getting whacked as soon as possible. Great technique means crap if you're a bit shocked at what just happened when somebody hits/kicks you as hard as they can, flush. And it's something you have to regularly do--not something that you can do once or twice and go "ok." But that's my opinion.

Nobody here or in any other style is doing anything that special

rubthebuddha--careful, you'll get yourself a bad name :P

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
rubthebuddha--careful, you'll get yourself a bad name :P
how so? for admitting when i'm wrong, or for agreeing with a no-good, horse-thievin' grappler? ;)

[Merryprankster]

When were you ever wrong?

And yes, for agreeing with a no good horse-theiving grappler. You forgot to add "baby-killing" and "all brute strength and no technique."

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Merry,


Originally posted by Merryprankster
Zhuge, basics are relative, but only to a point.

"The point" is relative as well. It differs from style to style, teacher to teacher, and individual to individual. I'm not disputing the notion that sparring is a vital apect of training with regards to self defense. The point of difference is the definition of the correct time time to spar. I happen to agree that it should be "as soon as possible" as well, but we have different definitions of "possible."

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[rubthebuddha]

i said i didn't see any elbers in the video, and jmdrake proved me wrong.


You forgot to add "baby-killing" and "all brute strength and no technique."
the formal terms for the last one are "no-talent, knuckle-draggin ..."

i also left out tights-wearin, commie-luvin, flag-burnin and a couple more, but i thought they went without saying. ;)

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Because the question is actually more about training methods at this point, vice doing WC correctly.
.....
Secondly, it's a public forum. Tough.

OK.

My post came off harsher than I intended anyway.

I am still curious though. Why do you post on the WC forum?

My take on the video clips:

I don't want to criticize anyone's skill.

I just think they should take the helmets off.
It's protecting them a little too much.

[Merryprankster]

In this particular instance, I saw a link to sparring clips. So I went. Like most people in the MA's I'm interested in watching people spar. One thing led to another.

I never once knocked them beyond saying they look like beginners. And they do. It DOES look like a slapfest. But that's not an insult because they'll learn, and that's exactly what I said. They're out there DOING it, which is more than I can say for many.

We call new wrestlers fish--that's what they look like, flopping around. It only becomes an insult if, after years of experience, we still call you one :D

I too wish they'd remove those headgear. I'm all for open face headgear though. They do an adequate job and the experience is far more...immediate.

I would never, however, comment on the technical aspects of what they are doing, unless they were defending takedowns (just for the record, elbows to the back of the head don't cut it, most of the time). I can't offer to correct any perceived errors within a WC context, so there's no point.

Does that make any sense?

[rogue]

Sparring should be a regular part of your training. Maybe not everyday but often. We just had a really meek guy in our dojo knock down a black belt. It's like MP said it's important to train away flinch response and the shock of getting whacked, this guy did and finally moved onto hitting back. His form still sucks but I think he can handle himself better now that he crossed that line.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
In this particular instance, I saw a link to sparring clips. So I went. Like most people in the MA's I'm interested in watching people spar. One thing led to another.

I never once knocked them beyond saying they look like beginners. And they do. It DOES look like a slapfest. But that's not an insult because they'll learn, and that's exactly what I said. They're out there DOING it, which is more than I can say for many.

We call new wrestlers fish--that's what they look like, flopping around. It only becomes an insult if, after years of experience, we still call you one :D

I too wish they'd remove those headgear. I'm all for open face headgear though. They do an adequate job and the experience is far more...immediate.

I would never, however, comment on the technical aspects of what they are doing, unless they were defending takedowns (just for the record, elbows to the back of the head don't cut it, most of the time). I can't offer to correct any perceived errors within a WC context, so there's no point.

Does that make any sense?

Yes, perfect sense. I understand where you're coming from.

From my POV, I don't see anything wrong with sparring as early as possible. But I don't really see much point in complimenting them for doing sparring either. People in WC and in other arts are doing sparring so they're not special.

It's kinda patronizing actually. Any boxer or kickboxer would expect a better standard from a 1 year beginner in their art. But because it's WC, these guys are congratulated just for putting clips on the internet.

[Merryprankster]

Not patronizing really. I think it's just sort of a "great to see that people are sparring" in an era where so many people don't, you know?

And yeah, boxers and kickboxers would expect better. But that's because WC is SOOOOOOO much more 'advanced' and it takes SOOOOOOO much longer to learn to fight with it :D

[Alpha Dog]

You can always spar -- just find someone to spar with. Merry you seem to be looking for some sanction from WC that formally declares "Sparring is Good."

You could go to a MA supply store and see if you can find a badge that says "World Wing Chun Sparring Society" on it (beside the dragon logo) and sew it on your jean jacket.

Just a thought.

[Merryprankster]

Seeing as I don't do WC, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to wear such a patch.

Secondly, I don't need a WC sanction. I know sparring is good. First question I'd ask at any school I was looking at "Do you spar?" The second would be "I'd like to watch a sparring session/class before I consider signing up, is that ok?"

[Alpha Dog]

Good luck then Merry. All the best.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
And yeah, boxers and kickboxers would expect better. But that's because WC is SOOOOOOO much more 'advanced' and it takes SOOOOOOO much longer to learn to fight with it :D

I don't think anyone used that as an excuse for the performance in the clips.

As shown by various posts here, a lot of WC people *did* expect a bit better than that.

[Miles Teg]

Hi Merry Prankster
You seem to be well grounded in fighting arts. I know you place a lot of importance on sparring, which is good. However if for some reason you ever did want to try W.C I wouldnt restrict your search to only schools that spar. You can still apply what youve leant by sparring outside class time with fellow students or your own sparring buddies.
From what Ive seen in different W.C schools, the w.c schools that dont spar are often of a higher standard than those that do.
On your part there would need to be a leap of faith. The best way is to go to as many schools as you can. Dont leave if they dont spar, stick around and see what they can do.

[Merryprankster]

Miles Teg, A-dog,

I understand your points. But if that's the case--no class time, or open mat time devoted to sparring--then the instructor needs to make it VERY CLEAR that what they are learning will be next to useless if they don't go out to spar with people.

Secondly, it's just ****ed inconvenient. Most people don't wander around from MA school to MA school making sparring contacts. I get around a bit in the local MA scene and have no more than 4 partners that I have met, outside of my school affiliated partners, that I could spar with.

Edmund, I was making a joke.... easy....

Secondly, I don't really know why they expected better out of beginners. I don't judge by "how long have you been training?" I judge by that, plus sparring experience. These guys are beginnners from a whacking each other around perspective.

Thing is, the reason boxers/kickboxers would "expect better," is because by the end of 9 months, you've seen your fair share of sparring rounds. In the little bit of boxing I did, I started sparring after about 6 weeks. That was three times a week, between 2 and 3 rounds per session. That adds up to a fairly significant amount of sparring over 9 months. Not a ton mind you, and I'd probably just hurt myself if I ever tried to use it instead of my takedowns, but I did learn to stay cool in the middle of a flurry, not lose my structure, and counter attack...



Even if I never could hit the 6'4" ******* who was my "usual" partner. :D

[Merryprankster]

Last I checked, we've all got the same equipment. Your body obeys the same physical laws mine does and moves in more or less the same way.

Can I say with 100% certainty that there ISN'T a 90 year old man on a mountain who can kick my ass while standing on one finger? Nope. I can assess that it's not likely.

FWIW, perhaps if you viewed kickboxing and grappling without your WC tinted glasses, you might understand why sparring is necessary.

I'll tell you one thing. Those ancient fighting masters didn't get that way without kicking the crap out of each other from time to time. And probably more regularly and frequently than that.

On a side note kickboxing with WC shapes is still kickboxing... hmmm... does that mean that boxing with karate shapes is still boxing? How do you even define that?

I would argue that if you're trained WC and you're using what you've learned in sparring it ain't kickboxing.

[yuanfen]

Wnen wing chunners do "sparring" with gloves-it usually becomes neither fish nor fowl- neither good boxing/kickboxing nor good wing chun.

Wing Chun varies so much in quality control that many non wcers comments on wing chun are simply and widely off the mark.
Even chi sao means different things to different schools and
teachers and practitioners.

You have folks with insufficient or non existent wing chun skills
and advocate "sparring" and you have wing chun folks who really havent put their motions to any testing. Two fringes. Little wing chun in the former and lots of illusions in the latter.
Good wing chun training does teach developing non flinching, closing the gap, control under pressure, calmness under fire,
advanced coordination of the body-horizontally and vertically or
mixes in between, and adjustments when hit, thrown or otherwise endangered.

[KenWingJitsu]

MERRYPRANKSTERR AND ALL THOSE WHO ADVOCATE SPARRING ARE CORRECT.

Of course you can spar as you learn. This is the way of the future and any WC'ers who dont, will become obsolete. In fact many already are they just dont know it yet....until they spar with someone who knocks their block off.

[Alpha Dog]

:o

[Merryprankster]

KWJ,

I can't be correct. I don't do WC.

Secondly, YOU can't be correct. If you spar, you're not doing REAL WC. See?

[old jong]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
KWJ,

I can't be correct. I don't do WC.

Secondly, YOU can't be correct. If you spar, you're not doing REAL WC. See?

Correct!...;)

[PaulH]

MP,

That reminds me of an interesting logical dilemma. Mike Typhoon once asked Long Nose of the famous Wing Bird style: "how do I kill you?" Being a bad dude, he hastily added that if the answer is correct, then he will pound LN to death. If the answer is wrong then he will spar LN to death. Long Nose thought a long while and finally came up with an answer that completely neutralized MT's death wishes. What did he say? Mind you, MT already had selected one of the 1001 ways to kill this bird beside the two methods above.

Regards,

[KenWingJitsu]

MP...yeah I know...I have muddied the pure waters of WC by...sparring and fighting. Oh no. lol. Heaven forbid I train realistically so I can actually *gasp* fight. lol

Same arguement, same forum, same intelligent people who get it, same "pajama clan" livin in fantrasy land. Oh well.

[yuanfen]

Same old divides- when someone is interested in mma they sure should ask MP and KWJ for their advice.

[old jong]

A good read! (http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_elmore_0402.htm)

[PaulH]

Any takers to my million dollar brain teaser?

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by PaulH
Any takers to my million dollar brain teaser?
Ummmmmm, my guess is he didn't answer he just fought. MT was intent on fighting him, what would be the logic in answering as either way he was going to fight him to the death. So he shut up and fought or said that and did it. That is my answer.

Vicky

[PaulH]

Okay, Vicky. Since you're a nice lady I won't delay the answer to this. You are right in that Long Nose will die fighting either way, but that would be so uncool. Contrary to other styles, the Wing Bird practitioner depends heavily on brain muscle to defeat their enemy, so what he comes up is this answer: "I will die sparring to death!" Of course, MT would promptly reply: "No, no, you are wrong!" To that, LN ask: " Give me my just death, then..." "Spar to the death." "Ahem, did I say spar to the last man standing?" "Well, LN. You are right... okay, I will have to pound you, punk!" "Ahem, did you say that I am wrong" So you see, Vicky, MT could not kill Long Nose either way as it would contradict him logically. No right, no wrong which is what Wing Bird style is all about.

Regards,

[Edmund]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
MP...yeah I know...I have muddied the pure waters of WC by...sparring and fighting. Oh no. lol. Heaven forbid I train realistically so I can actually *gasp* fight. lol

Same arguement, same forum, same intelligent people who get it, same "pajama clan" livin in fantrasy land. Oh well.

I think Yuanfen hit upon what the problem is but was unnoticed.
Two fringes of thought: those who don't care about WC but spar and those who do care about WC but don't spar.

It is one thing to train realistically but it doesn't necessarily mean that *WC* is being trained realistically.

Like it or not, these clips are judged by WC people based on WC ability, not on how hard they are going. Even then, different WC schools have different perspectives on techniques and strategies.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by PaulH
Okay, Vicky. Since you're a nice lady I won't delay the answer to this. You are right in that Long Nose will die fighting either way, but that would be so uncool. Contrary to other styles, the Wing Bird practitioner depends heavily on brain muscle to defeat their enemy, so what he comes up is this answer: "I will die sparring to death!" Of course, MT would promptly reply: "No, no, you are wrong!" To that, LN ask: " Give me my just death, then..." "Spar to the death." "Ahem, did I say spar to the last man standing?" "Well, LN. You are right... okay, I will have to pound you, punk!" "Ahem, did you say that I am wrong" So you see, Vicky, MT could not kill Long Nose either way as it would contradict him logically. No right, no wrong which is what Wing Bird style is all about.

Regards,

Cool, thanks Paul, for the answer and the compliment. I like the answer. Glad that I was sorta close too lol.

Regards,
Vicky

[WCis4me]

Hi Edmund,

those who don't care about WC but spar and those who do care about WC but don't spar.
What about those who do care about WC and do spar? Dang, there is always a grey area isn't there? ;)

Personally, I care about WC, all of it, but I also believe in sparring as hard as possible without creating serious injury as a part of training (when you are ready for that), and believe when able and ready that competition/meetings/tournaments/whatever you want to call it, especially with mixed MA, is a VERY VERY good thing. The less structured the better as well IMO.
HOWEVER, I do not believe that people who do not have that urge, or ability, should do it, any of it, and don't think bad of them if that is their choice.

Regards,
Vicky

[Miles Teg]

In my time doing Karate I sparred a lot. Now I dont spar but I feel as though I know 20 times more than I did. The sparring was probably the most interesting part of class and the most valuable.

There a certain reactions that become second nature from sparring that are really good.

Then there are some that are not good that sparring only makes worse.

Chi Sau among a hundred other things, I believe, is excellent for enforcing good habits and developing the ideal ways that you should react. In a controlled and in a safe way. Of course, as Yuanfen said there are varying degrees of intensity in Chi Sau.

Senario: You spar with your teacher/senior. Everytime you throw a strike he does something very skillful and drops you or inflicts pain.
Fact: Above all things the mind will do anything to avoid pain.
Result: Your mind will take control of your body and devlop bad habits to avoid the pain ie. retreat, or hesitant about striking yourself.

The same could happen in chi sau, if the teacher punched you hard everytime he found an opening. If you didnt quit the school you would develop some nervous tendancies.

[Miles Teg]

My experience in Karate

I could do well against most people I sparred with even if they were bigger. But there was this one guy, a low level black belt, who every time I threw a kick to him he managed somehow (in an instant) to throw me in the air, with my legs going up in the air, head hitting the wooden floor first. He did this to me very often. It hurt and I began dreading the time when I had to spar this guy. I think I can guess what he did to me now that I do w.c but at the time I didnt have a clue because it happened so fast. Anyway, I became a little hesitant with him and a little with others as well. I also became a little scarred of throwing certain techniques that I knew would end up with me hurting.


I think sparring can have great benefits, but personally Im glad we dont waste valuable class time doing it. In my opinion my time in class is best spent doing chisau. If I sparred at W.C class I would also be sparring with fellow W.C people. My seniors would be pulling moves off on me that, becuase of their better structure and sensitivity, I wouldnt be able to apply to them. They would inflict pain, while the stuff Im learing isnt working on them........what does that tell the brain on a conscious and sub conscious level?(especially when you add pain to the equation)

Also you would be sparring people with the same context as you. The best way in my opinion is to go outside your school for sparring partners. Then you can apply what youve learnt on someone who is not familar with what you do (great for you) and you can learn from someone who moves and attacks in different ways than you have been subjected to (good for you, and the sparring partner obviously). I think it could be a good means of testing. Testing where you are (in W.C), where you stand (compared to others), and if you can get it to work. As a testing medium I dont personally think it is something you need to do all that regularly either, for the reasons I gave above. Just something you do now and then when you think you have reached a new leavel or want to test a theory or see how you've improved.

I would like to spar some time, especially now that I can't train W.C in Japan. I have been going to different forums asking if anyone would be interested - so far no joy. I dont want to join a karate club just for the sparing, Im through with that crap.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by WCis4me
What about those who do care about WC and do spar? Dang, there is always a grey area isn't there? ;)


They're officially not on the two fringes.
But if they do care for both, what do they think of the clips?

No WC person has stated, "Wow! Great WC" or "decent WC" yet.
I think people have a pretty high standard in mind that hasn't been met.



Personally, I care about WC, all of it, but I also believe in sparring as hard as possible without creating serious injury as a part of training (when you are ready for that), and believe when able and ready that competition/meetings/tournaments/whatever you want to call it, especially with mixed MA, is a VERY VERY good thing. The less structured the better as well IMO.
HOWEVER, I do not believe that people who do not have that urge, or ability, should do it, any of it, and don't think bad of them if that is their choice.


So then WCis4me, why do you personally choose to prepare for mixed MA competitions? What benefits have you found?

As you stated, some people have an interest and others don't.

[Knifefighter]

The longer you go without sparring, the more you will become trapped in the mire of unworkable theory.

Lack of sparring is what allows so many instructors to come up with such inane and unrealistic techniques.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
The longer you go without sparring, the more you will become trapped in the mire of unworkable theory.

Not if you're practicing Wing Chun as it should be practiced. The devil is knowing the difference. When I read someone complaining that their instructors don't live up to their expectations, I wonder why they hang around.


Lack of sparring is what allows so many instructors to come up with such inane and unrealistic techniques.
That's one of the problems. Another is gullible students. Every technique should be tested as KenWingJitsu suggests against an uncooperative resisting opponent. This can and should be done in the course of Chi Sao in class and playing with outside hands in other styles of MA until you're satisfied the technique works and you own it.

Regards,

[Black Jack]

What makes you think that the drill of Chi Sao is anything related to actual real world fighting scenrios?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Black Jack
What makes you think that the drill of Chi Sao is anything related to actual real world fighting scenrios?

Exactly... using chi sao as your only sparring method is a perfect example of how a myriad of unworkable techniques develop because they are never tested under real fire.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Knifefighter

Originally posted by Black Jack
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What makes you think that the drill of Chi Sao is anything related to actual real world fighting scenrios?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly... using chi sao as your only sparring method is a perfect example of how a myriad of unworkable techniques develop because they are never tested under real fire.
There is a wide range of Chi Sao practice. Likely the sparring advocates would recognize much of what I do as sparring. I consider Chi Sao to be enough for me. :D

Regards,

[Miles Teg]

Black Jack says:
What makes you think that the drill of Chi Sao is anything related to actual real world fighting scenrios?



What makes you think that sparring is any more so?

[Knifefighter]

Real fight = opponent throwing full on punches, kicks, knees and elbows from all angles and from all ranges; opponent clinches and throws you into wall or other non-yielding surface; opponent tries to take you down; opponent tries to finish you on the ground with punches, knees, elbows, joint locks and chokes. Real fights may also have multiple opponents, weapons, restricted terrain.

Sparring = opponent throwing full on (or close to full-on) punches, kicks, knees and elbows from all angles and from all ranges; opponent clinches and throws you into wall or ropes or fence of cage; opponent tries to take you down; opponent tries to finish you on the ground with punches, knees, elbows, joint locks and chokes. Sparring can also be done with weapons, against multiple opponents and on a variety of terrain.


Chi Sao = start in chi sao starting position; attempt to slap or hit each other in the chest using techniques that you will most likely never see nor the majority be able to pull off in a real fight.

[rogue]

I still don't get why you can't do SLT, chisau and some sparring on a regular basis?

[yuanfen]

I wrote a longer post but it disappeared in cyberspace-probably mea culps. Prolly just as well-kismet.
Knifefighter- your comment on defining chi sao is a major part of the problem.
Lots o people only know chi sao unfortunately asa little mechanical rolling and then slap slap.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Knifefighter

Exactly... using chi sao as your only sparring method is a perfect example of how a myriad of unworkable techniques develop because they are never tested under real fire.

Cough. How do you feel about the clips though?

Your profile indicates you aren't a WC person, so from an outsider's perspective:

Do you think these guys have workable techniques that are going to go great under real fire?

You seem like a MMA type - what do you reckon? Think these guys are a chance in UFC whatever-number?

Face it. People have been very diplomatic about the clips.
This being the internet, I'm suprised there isn't a howl of derision and insults from the BJJ trolls.

If anything, the clips expose your argument.

These clips *are* the WC sparring that you're advocating! *No-one* says they like the sparring clips. All the MMA types are saying they suck "but at least they're getting in there". If sparring is so good for WC, then these clips should show some good WC. Do they? No WC person has said so. Do they show good fighting?

If *you* don't like them, why should non-sparring people start to spar?

Man, I hate this. It sounds like I'm really insulting these clips.
I don't hate them that much actually. But I don't want to patronize them by saying "well done" either.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen

Lots o people only know chi sao unfortunately asa little mechanical rolling and then slap slap.

Fair enough... how do you do your chi sao?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Edmund


Cough. How do you feel about the clips though?

Your profile indicates you aren't a WC person, so from an outsider's perspective:

Unfortunately, I can't comment on them. I would like to, but I have a stupid Mac so I can't view the Windows formatted clips.

I'm not a true outsider. More like a turncoat. In my youth, I mis-spent more than a few years doing chi sao drills and performing SLT on the wooden dummy.

[Miles Teg]

Your definition of sparring is also misleading Knifefighter.

How often do you spar like that?

It sounds like you could get a lot of injuries from sparring in this fashion that would put you out of practice for quite a while.

Spar with weapons?
Holly sh!t dude are you a Navy Seal or what?

Side note: You left out wild bear attack senarios. You need to get those bears in the dojo put the gear on them and practice with them as well.

[Merryprankster]

These clips *are* the WC sparring that you're advocating! *No-one* says they like the sparring clips. All the MMA types are saying they suck "but at least they're getting in there". If sparring is so good for WC, then these clips should show some good WC. Do they? No WC person has said so. Do they show good fighting?

They're beginners. You think Lennox Lewis looked like a champ the first time he stepped up to spar?

Give them a consistent year and you're going to see something a lot more polished. Of course, it's not going to look like demo clips, but that's not exactly a realistic expectation.

My point is that I wouldn't expect a beginner to look good. They're in there, banging away. As they spar more, they will get better at using what they know. Their drill time and spar time will add up to some fairly decent skills, unless they are just hopeless.

Right now, you're watching very new people to sparring, go at it. The website even said that, didn't it? Don't expect them to look great. New wrestlers look bad too. Cael Sanderson looks like a genius. But he's spent thousands of hours sparring and drilling. I expect that, you know?

Miles Teg, Knifefighter's definition of sparring is just about right. Perhaps a little harder than I prefer, but every once in awhile, you rachet up to that too. When you spar in boxing, you aren't being "nice." The difference between sparring in boxing and a full on fight is that if you have your partner a bit dazed, you don't move in for the knock out. Otherwise, I can attest that the punches are **** close to full on.

[Merryprankster]

Wing chun is slightly different, we teach our bodies to move differently, we learn to read our opponent, and act appropriately by looking at combat in slightly more abstract terms of pressures, power lines and the like...

While I don't doubt this, it's clear you've NEVER done any grappling based art for any length of time.

In fact, ALL good fighters from any style do what you are talking about. Good principles transcend stylistic considerations. Good fighters learn to use those principles to their advantage.

Karateka DEFINITELY don't look like boxers. Interesting theory though.

Quality of movement? WTF?! We're all working with the same basic tools and have to move our bodies in the same basic way. Or is your hip a hinge joint vice ball and socket? Or perhaps your elbow is a ball and socket joint? Or mayhaps you have three arms and four legs? I may not look as slick as Brain Oldfield throwing a shot, but I still have to move the same way. Kinesiology can't be changed. Employment of it can be optimized, but that's about it.


Problem is MP, all the martial arts you've seen so far all follow the same pattern : Learn this punch, this kick, this block, this throw, then add another punch, another kick... practise some kata or put in some hours with a bag and some focus mitts, and then spar to learn how to put it all together.

You need to get out more. This is a prime example of what I'm talking about--this bizarre belief that some people have that "what I'm doing is special." It isn't. Further it's a perfectly innaccurate description of how these other arts are successfully taught.

[Merryprankster]

but its like comparing high school with postgraduate.

Bizarre belief that some people have that "what I'm doing is special." :rolleyes:

[WCis4me]

Hi Edmund,

Edmund Wrote:

So then WCis4me, why do you personally choose to prepare for mixed MA competitions? What benefits have you found?
Well first of all I am NO WHERE near ready to use my WC skills acquired to train for competitions. However, I definitely hope that in the next year or two I will be.
My reasons are:
Firstly, for a personal preference reason, I think it is a fun, exciting, and challenging environment. I love fighting sports (boxing, kickboxing, MA tournaments) always have liked watching them and wanted to be a part of it. Also I love good competition, it would only make sense for me, personally, to pursue that avenue, when and if I have the skill to.
Secondly, and most importantly I think that intense sparring or competition is the best way to test your skills. To do so in a mixed MA environment only makes sense to me. It gives you a chance to test your 'stuff' against what you will most likely find out on the street. You can use your WC skills in a variety of ways that are more unpredictable than fighting within your own style. You can see what needs more work and what needs less work, in a practical environment. I also think that the competitions are good as you can do full contact to test these things however it is a relatively controlled environment, so there are videos etc and you can see later where you can improve. Unlike other fights where they are of a spontaneous nature.
Do I think doing this will TOTALLY prepare me for any event out in the street, heck no. But, I do believe it will give me the best advantage I can have without being immoral and going and picking fights with complete strangers as test subjects.

Regards,
Vicky

PS. about the clips. I am not sure I am getting the same thing up as everyone else. I am getting a slide show kind of thing. From what I saw, I don't see a lot of the WC I have learned to this point in the slide show, so I really can't say much. I can't really compare it either to others I have seen as it wouldn't be fair. They seem to be more inexperienced than most of the WC practicioners I know well.

[Black Jack]

This is where people confuse a energy drill with fighting. Chi Sao is a drill. It has a set reference point from which a person starts a movement and then on it goes, counter, recounter, gottcha.

It is used like many other energy drills, which are just as good, such as filipino tapi-tapi/hubud lubud as an example, to develop certain set reactions and form, from which you can learn to freestyle from one tech to another. Drills are a good tool but its just one tool. Using only one tool as your means of education limits your mindset and it is often a closed mindset that gets snuck up on in the real world. To be complete you need to have more than that in your training toolbox.

In situational sparring you are not as concerned with perfect form as you are with the results.

As Knifefighter already mentioned you also add in other elements which are based on awareness, enviroment and attitude. Different distances, roleplaying attack situations, weapons, what have you. By weapons "I" mean training knives, sticks, guns, mano-mano, situational attacks, on the ground, both defensive and offensive, if not for your use than just to get into another world outlook on street attacks.

Drills by themselves are interesting but very limiting if that is all you do.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Black Jack
This is where people confuse a energy drill with fighting. Chi Sao is a drill. Fighting is all about energy.


It has a set reference point from which a person starts a movement and then on it goes, counter, recounter, gottcha. Perhaps you should be more specific such as "my chi sau is like....".


Drills are a good tool but its just one tool. Using only one tool as your means of education limits your mindset and it is often a closed mindset that gets snuck up on in the real world. To be complete you need to have more than that in your training toolbox.Drills are repetitive. Chi sau is an exercise that is not repetitive, therefore not a drill.


In situational sparring you are not as concerned with perfect form as you are with the results. Exactly why it is a waste of time. It undoes all of your training, and makes it all pointless.

[Merryprankster]

Exactly why it is a waste of time. It undoes all of your training, and makes it all pointless.

LOL!

The real thing never looks like a picture perfect drill because fights/sparring situations are dynamic. You think actual construction looks exactly like a blueprint?

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


LOL!

The real thing never looks like a picture perfect drill because fights/sparring situations are dynamic. You think actual construction looks exactly like a blueprint?

Actual construction is a test of the quality of the blueprint and the materials used. If either suck, the whole thing falls apart.

[EnterTheWhip]

Alpha Dog said it all. This is why there can be only a few great ones.

[Black Jack]

I never visit down here much but I can now understand why it has a certain jim jones feel to it.

People have a problem when they think you are questioning their sacred martial cow.

[Merryprankster]

Actual construction is a test of the quality of the blueprint and the materials used. If either suck, the whole thing falls apart.

And you've got no idea how it performs unless you test it out. Or shall we throw an untested Turbine in a passenger aircraft and allow it to take off with passengers aboard?


Bizarre belief that some people have that nothing exists beyond that which they have seen and can understand.

More elitist crap.

It's amazing. You guys have fantastic resources here from people who've actually gone and DONE something with their WC training, like KWJ and you all run around telling him he's an idiot.

Classic.

[AndrewS]

FWIW,

that's a decent look at a WT full-contact program, and, no, I don't think the participants were showing anything great. As usual, much goes out the window when pressure comes.

The WT vs. WT thing is of limited value. While I think full-contact is an excellent learning tool, working with people within your system, fighting using the same method, is less useful than working with folks from different approaches.

Generally speaking for full-contact in WT, people tend to start with chain punches alone, then kicks are allowed, then elbows and knees. These clips reflect that.

Later,

Andrew

[yuanfen]

Knifefighter- you used to do slt on the wooden dummy?

An outsider at the start!

[apoweyn]

Crimsonking,


Yes, other martial artists can be aware of these principles too - grapplers work with pressures and good strikers should have an understanding of the geometry of standup combat - but its like comparing high school with postgraduate.

I've read this whole thread now, so I have to admit that I've kinda lost track of who has said what.

That in mind, do you advocate sparring ever? After a student has formed a solid base?

Have you formed such a base? If so, do you spar? And if the answer to that is 'yes' too, can we see? Can you post examples? Because I, for one, am dying to see it.


Stuart B.

[fa_jing]

I'm working on getting some of my action in clips up on the net. Sparring and comps. It might be about a month. Nothing overwhelming as I am no expert, but entertaining and informative, at least to me. You will see both more and less "Wing Chun" when you watch my clips compared to the WT clips- less of a signature wing chun tactic (chain punches) and more of the wing chun footwork, effective punches and kicks, and overall strategy. These things might be less apparent to someone who hasn't studied wing chun. Stay tuned. :)

[apoweyn]

Groovy. Looking forward to it fa_jing.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Knifefighter- you used to do slt on the wooden dummy?

An outsider at the start!

Yeah, I guess you are right. I was always trying to weed out the BS. Working the Mook Jong made more sense to me than the normal SLT of trying to "swim on dry land."

[Miles Teg]

Knifefighter
Then you cant know the value of SNT. It is way more than the movements, the movements and positioning comes second best to the main point of SNT.


MerryPrankster
No one is trying to say that we are doing something superior to everything else. We are just saying its different. There are different mechanics. I can accept you have a very indepth knowledge in grappling and other fighting arts that we cant match. Can you accept that there are things about Wing CHun that you do not yet understand?
When I tried some Judo I discovered there are different mechanics down there. I now see value in grappling that I never saw before. I cant even imagine how valuable your experience and knowledge is in this area.
I think you should expect the same thing from W.C. Be prepared to empty your cup a little.
There are things that you can do in W.C that I didnt even know were possible until I started doing it. Ive met a Tai Chi guy that blew my mind. I dont know if I want to do it as it takes a long time to get good at. But I accept that it is different and has aspects to it that I do not fully understand yet.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Give them a consistent year and you're going to see something a lot more polished. Of course, it's not going to look like demo clips, but that's not exactly a realistic expectation.


No it's not. I agree.
I'd like to see them after one year.

So do you think they have workable techniques that are going to go great for them under real fire?




Right now, you're watching very new people to sparring, go at it. The website even said that, didn't it?

Don't know. I only saw German writing which I can't understand.
Someone mentioned they were beginners.

[Edmund]

Hi Vicky,

Thanks for your post.

I'm told there are amateur competitions for those who want to have a go. Perhaps that would be something you could try?

About the clips:
On the site under the fightclub link, there is a video button that opens a video page. The Foto button gives the slideshow.




Originally posted by WCis4me
Well first of all I am NO WHERE near ready to use my WC skills acquired to train for competitions. However, I definitely hope that in the next year or two I will be.
...
PS. about the clips. I am not sure I am getting the same thing up as everyone else. I am getting a slide show kind of thing. From what I saw, I don't see a lot of the WC I have learned to this point in the slide show, so I really can't say much. I can't really compare it either to others I have seen as it wouldn't be fair. They seem to be more inexperienced than most of the WC practicioners I know well.

[WCis4me]

Thanks Edmund.

Regards,
Vicky

[Merryprankster]

No one is trying to say that we are doing something superior to everything else. We are just saying its different.

Perhaps that's what you are saying, but crimsonking, who posted:


Yes, other martial artists can be aware of these principles too - grapplers work with pressures and good strikers should have an understanding of the geometry of standup combat - but its like comparing high school with postgraduate.

Quite clearly believes that what he is doing comes from on high in an unquestionably superior form. I call bull****. I've said it once, I'll say it again: If MMA arrogance is the "wanna-be toughguy," then CMA arrogance is pure elitist snobbery.



There are different mechanics.

Agreed! But to argue that WC is doing something drastically different than other "striking" arts is a mistake, IMO. There is a reason that grappling arts all look similar in execution--the same principles apply. Violating those principles results in not being able to execute. The arts are more similar than different because we're all working with the same template (human body). The parts we argue endlessly about are usually no more than maybe 10% different, from a kinesthetic standpoint IMO. You know that front kick you guys seem to do a bit of? Looks a lot like an MT push kick.


Can you accept that there are things about Wing CHun that you do not yet understand?

Yup. But I won't accept that sparring has low value in developing fighting skill. Nor will I accept the idea that WC is "postgraduate school," when compared to other arts. Utter crap.


I think you should expect the same thing from W.C. Be prepared to empty your cup a little.

I'm not knocking WC as a fighting style. I'm knocking a particular training method (or lack of one.) All the drills and forms and technical expertise in the world won't help you if you freeze up when attacked and aren't used to what gitting hit full on feels like. And you have to KEEP at that. I've been so focused on grappling sans strikes lately, that I know I would be a bit flustered right now if somebody tried to whack me around. Oh, it comes back quick, but that's cause I've been there, done that.

On top of that, timing, footwork, etc are so much different with somebody actively trying to attack and defend, than just drilling. You drill to perfect body mechanics. You spar to learn to employ those body mechanics on somebody who doesn't want you to.


There are things that you can do in W.C that I didnt even know were possible until I started doing it.

This doesn't surprise me a bit. I certainly know that the stuff you guys do with your hands has real value in Judo. I gripfought with a guy with a WC background not too long ago. Getting a dominant grip was brutally difficult. Nice stuff.


Ive met a Tai Chi guy that blew my mind. I dont know if I want to do it as it takes a long time to get good at. But I accept that it is different and has aspects to it that I do not fully understand yet.

I'm well aware that WC has aspects I'm not familiar with. But that doesn't mean that sparring has no value. A fight is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it's a relationship. That means it involves two (or more) people, their actions, and reactions. I wouldn't expect a person raised in a basement, sans human contact to be socially proficient. I would expect awkwardness, maybe an outright shutdown. If you don't spar, you're the kid in the basement--you don't have the basic, practical know-how of a fighting relationship. From a self-defense perspective, there are other things that must also be done, but sparring's a pretty good test in lieu of the real thing w/respect to basic fighting skills. And I don't know about you, but I don't particularly like streetfighting. To much death and legal fees.

FWIW, I read your experience in Karate. The black belts you were going with sounded like jerks. I might also point out that as a WC practitioner NOW, you benefit from your previous sparring experiences. You don't freeze NOW because you're used to getting whacked around a bit. A Newbie may not have that advantage and if they don't spar, they'll never learn.

When I first started wrestling, everything happened so fast. When I first started boxing, everything happened so fast. System overload. Now, with experience, 10 seconds is quite a while.

[Merryprankster]

Edmund,

I'd love to see them one year later as well!

As for "do they have workable techniques?"

Right now, maybe. In a year, provided there is continued sparring frequency AND feedback, they will probably have very workable techniques.

Right now, their biggest gain is going to come from not freezing when they get whacked around and not going into system overload (everything happening in a blur) if they get into it.

[Merryprankster]

although 90% of doorwork is dealing with untrained drunks - other 10% can be a tricky.

Amen to that.

[jonp]

the way i see it wingchun teaches certain skills that are useful for fighting.

if you wanna be good at fighting you gotta fight

if you just wanna be good at wingchun just do that.

peace

[WCis4me]

Merryprankster Wrote:

A fight is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it's a relationship. That means it involves two (or more) people, their actions, and reactions. I wouldn't expect a person raised in a basement, sans human contact to be socially proficient. I would expect awkwardness, maybe an outright shutdown. If you don't spar, you're the kid in the basement--you don't have the basic, practical know-how of a fighting relationship. From a self-defense perspective, there are other things that must also be done, but sparring's a pretty good test in lieu of the real thing w/respect to basic fighting skills.
I totally agree.

Crimsonking Wrote:

Sparring with other styles can have some value - once a certain point in training has been reached, and beyond a certain point that value is also lost. It must not be considered a primary training vehicle - but as a testing ground. Any areas needing improvement should be trained out before sparring again.
I totally agree with that as well.

Jon synopsized it well.

Regards,
Vicky

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
A fight is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it's a relationship. That means it involves two (or more) people, their actions, and reactions. If so, what is chi sau?

[old jong]

Originally posted by crimsonking
The real problem is using sparring as a primary training vehicle, as a wing chun fighter shouldnt fight anything like 'a sparrer'.

So true!...

Another problem is: Many beginners are disapointed when they can't make their Wing Chun work in sparring and they start discarding this or that technique as not effective. They think themselves as experts with their 10 months of Wing Chun and start evaluating and comparing the art to MMAs and whatever.
I know this causes some sarcastic comments but, the learning curve of Wing Chun is different from boxing or wrestling.You learn nothing in Wing Chun by getting whacked around silly.This is skillful art that demands years of patient practice to attain some relative high level,even if some real "street" effectiveness is obtainable in a relatively short times. No wonder that many will lack the proper dedication and will drift to other styles more adapted to their views about "fighting"
Everybody is free to believe what he want's. Even that sparring is the same as fighting. Or that you know "what is wrong in Wing Chun" or whatever other Red5Angel's type of idea. This will have no effect on the art and on those who like it enough to study it seriously.

[apoweyn]

Crimsonking,


Originally posted by crimsonking
Sparring with other styles can have some value - once a certain point in training has been reached, and beyond a certain point that value is also lost. It must not be considered a primary training vehicle - but as a testing ground. Any areas needing improvement should be trained out before sparring again.

Well, I don't believe you hit a point where sparring is no longer productive. What do you do in its stead? If sparring is a testing ground, at what point do you no longer need to test things? Or is there a better testing platform? If so, what is it?


Outside interaction is not a problem - i have had students take six months or a year out to train in boxing or judo or something - they've all come back.

I'm not really clear on how that pertains to anything I wrote, but okay.


We dont spar. However, we do train every range, full force, speed, resistance (blah!) and yes, the 16oz gloves come out on a regular basis - lots of boxing experience around. And, we train with real 'alive' chisao, and no video clips arent available.

Two questions: How does this multirange, full force, speed and resistance training differ from sparring? And why aren't video clips available? (Not trying to be argumentative. But have you just not got any available? Or are you saying that you won't make such clips available? Video clips would go a long way in answering question 1 for me. If I could see you're ideas in action, it would clear up a lot of things.)


The real problem is using sparring as a primary training vehicle, as a wing chun fighter shouldnt fight anything like 'a sparrer'.

Well, sparring is an abstraction. I don't think anyone's debating that. But anything less than full-out fights is an abstraction. So what makes sparring inferior to other drills? And what replaces the randomness of sparring in your training? (That takes me back to the question about the differences between what you do and sparring.)


Stuart B.

[Merryprankster]

If so, what is chi sau?

Seems to depend on how you define it here. Why don't you tell me your definition?

[Merryprankster]

This kinda cuts right into the centre of the issue - Looks dont tell all - there is so much going on with this simple kick - from a high level (strategy) to low level (internal mechanics) - there definitely aint any of this in muay thai!

More elitist crap. Tell ya what. Why don't you tell me how long you've done Muay Thai.

Oh, I realize that opens me up to the "But you've never done WC!" angle, but there's an important difference:

YOU are claiming that this WC kick offers something far more rarified and complex that the MT kick. I just happen to think you're full of crap about this. Although I do admit that what you say might be true, I highly doubt it.

So, tell me how you know that there's "none of that" going on in MT?

[Merryprankster]

Another problem is: Many beginners are disapointed when they can't make their wrestling work in sparring and they start discarding this or that technique as not effective. They think themselves as experts with their 10 months of wrestling and start evaluating and comparing the art to WC and whatever.
I know this causes some sarcastic comments but, the learning curve of wrestling is different from boxing or WC.You learn nothing in wrestling by getting whacked around silly.This is skillful art that demands years of patient practice to attain some relative high level,even if some real "street" effectiveness is obtainable in a relatively short times. No wonder that many will lack the proper dedication and will drift to other styles more adapted to their views about "fighting"
Everybody is free to believe what he want's. Even that sparring is the same as fighting. Or that you know "what is wrong in wrestling" or whatever other Red5Angel's type of idea. This will have no effect on the art and on those who like it enough to study it seriously.

[Merryprankster]

Problem is MP, all the martial arts you've seen so far all follow the same pattern : Learn this punch, this kick, this block, this throw, then add another punch, another kick... practise some kata or put in some hours with a bag and some focus mitts, and then spar to learn how to put it all together.

Wing chun is slightly different, we teach our bodies to move differently, we learn to read our opponent, and act appropriately by looking at combat in slightly more abstract terms of pressures, power lines and the like...


I just remembered this wonderful article that exactly demonstrates why the above statment is crap

http://www.themat.com/articles/showquestion.asp?faq=5&fldAuto=115

Check it out. Great article about.... principles based wrestling! And how you use your PRINCIPLES + BASIC SKILLS to execute(Shocking, isn't it?!?!?!)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Another problem is: Many beginners are disapointed when they can't make their wrestling work in sparring and they start discarding this or that technique as not effective. They think themselves as experts with their 10 months of wrestling and start evaluating and comparing the art to WC and whatever.
I know this causes some sarcastic comments but, the learning curve of wrestling is different from boxing or WC.You learn nothing in wrestling by getting whacked around silly.This is skillful art that demands years of patient practice to attain some relative high level,even if some real "street" effectiveness is obtainable in a relatively short times. No wonder that many will lack the proper dedication and will drift to other styles more adapted to their views about "fighting"
Everybody is free to believe what he want's. Even that sparring is the same as fighting. Or that you know "what is wrong in wrestling" or whatever other Red5Angel's type of idea. This will have no effect on the art and on those who like it enough to study it seriously.
... Did I mentionned sarcasm somewhere?...
:rolleyes:

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Merry,


Originally posted by Merryprankster


More elitist crap. Tell ya what. Why don't you tell me how long you've done Muay Thai.

Oh, I realize that opens me up to the "But you've never done WC!" angle, but there's an important difference:

YOU are claiming that this WC kick offers something far more rarified and complex that the MT kick. I just happen to think you're full of crap about this. Although I do admit that what you say might be true, I highly doubt it.

So, tell me how you know that there's "none of that" going on in MT?

This topic has gotten a little bit too personal on all sides for my tastes, but I want offer my opinion on the front kick. I can't speak for other schools, be it wing chun or muay thai, but the way my school does the front kick seems to me to be significantly different. Please let me explain. From an "external" point of view, our kick does not make use of hip rotation for power. We do not (or should not) thrust our kicking side hip forward to drive into our opponent. Rather, the body remains (or should remain) squarely facing our target throughout the entire kick. There is also no foward commitment (other than the kick) so the body does not have to step foward during or after the kick. From an external view point, it very much looks like we're standing on one leg, and just extending the other leg, seemingly without moving the other parts of the body (be it hip, shoulder, hands, etc.). So if you can accept that this is the way we do our kicks, then I think we can agree that this is different from the Muay Thai push kick. Note that I didn't say better, but merely different.

The obvious question one might ask after reading the above description is "where's the beef?" Or something like that. Well, that has to do with internal mechanics. Although we all have the same bodies, we do not all use them the same way. What if I told you my instructor not only kicks in the above described manner, but can generate a huge amount of force with it? I'm not a biologist nor a physicist so take that into account. But I would be entirely unsurprised if his kick breaks a planted shin. In fact, I would very surprised if the full force of his kick couldn't. I guess whether or not you believe me would depend on whether or not you think I'm delusional, but i suppose there's not much I can do over the internet to prove that I'm not. So take it as you will.

But, if only for the moment, you take what I described above as true. Then it seems to me that our Wing Chun kick is both externally and internally significantly different from the Muay Thai push kick, and we have only to conclude that the two kicks are different.

But that of course hinges on whether or not you believe me, and there's no amount of logic or reasoning that will give you a definitive reason to do so. But let me add this. I have done around 3 years or so of Hapkido. Obviously, it's far from being any kind of expert, but I do feel that I have some understanding of the Hapkido push kick. And if you'll allow me to be so bold, I presume that the mechanics are similar to the Muay Thai version. And I didn't have to wait three years to realize that our Wing Chun front kick is different either. It was obvious the first time I saw Ken (my instructor) do the front kick on a wooden post.

Now I must again re-iterate that I'm not claiming superiority. Just difference. Not the superiority of difference. Just difference. I'm sure we can make good points on the pros and cons of each type of kick. But my intention wasn't proving one is better than the other. It was to show that they were different, and perhaps attempt to shed some light on how they are different.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[old jong]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang


Now I must again re-iterate that I'm not claiming superiority. Just difference. Not the superiority of difference. Just difference. I'm sure we can make good points on the pros and cons of each type of kick. But my intention wasn't proving one is better than the other. It was to show that they were different, and perhaps attempt to shed some light on how they are different.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

No!...It's crap!... ;)

[fa_jing]

Good point ZL. I would just like to add that there are many variations of the front kick practiced in Wing Chun Kuen. I happen to favor variations where the hip is thrusted forward, but I think that's because I emphasize the use of this kick at a longer range than your sifu. Maybe we could start up a discussion of the ways to power and use this kick. Overall it is emphasized more in WCK than in Muy Thai. I have also seen some of the MT mechanics and footwork in person and I believe them to be sophisticated. I have seen a Muy Thai fighter from Thailand on TV appear to throw his teep for damage, even knocking down his opponent, also he was throwing a variation with the toes pointed inwards, approaching a side kick.

[yuanfen]

Due to shared pc access lately I haventkept up with all the posts... but some comments in passing...

1. elitist crap? Sure- so what.

2. ZL and fajing- Yes MT kicks and wc kicks are completely differen-IMO- different structures involved and contexts in which to use kicks. The individual- his development- his teaching and learning
are the important things... and in doing that "for me" wc is a far better journey than MT, MMA, BJJ etc we keep going round and round with non wcers. Same old same old shibboleths.

3. As has been pointed out repeatedly good wcers do test their stuff - aginst resisting opponents ( a current popular way of expression). They dont have to do what is commonly called sparring- but there is fast and furious contact. Schools vary-- soa sample of a school or schools are not necessarily representative of wc. Like all arts- there is bad wc.

4. Fajing- thrusting ones hip forward IMO is not the best of things-
if it ends up requiring rechambering and loss of fluidity. The conservation and redirection and fludity and control are also important.

5. Good wing chunners I know are not really into chest thumping, putting their scraps on videos etc. Folks need to have confidence in what they are doing or learning---- or try something else.
The shrinking in size of the number of core wing chun people- not necessarily a bad thing...except fpr the marketing folks.

[apoweyn]

yuanfen,


5. Good wing chunners I know are not really into chest thumping, putting their scraps on videos etc. Folks need to have confidence in what they are doing or learning---- or try something else.
The shrinking in size of the number of core wing chun people- not necessarily a bad thing...except fpr the marketing folks.

To my mind, it has nothing whatsoever to do with chest thumping. We come to a discussion forum to share ideas. It's a logical extension of that process to illustrate ideas. I don't think anyone would argue with the idea that martial arts are in the doing. Not the discussing. So it's not that unusual that other martial artists would want to see the doing. And not just have it described to them.

Folks do need to have confidence in what they're doing. But there are basically two paths to confidence: 1) observable and reproducible results that reinforce the belief or 2) faith.

Either works. Either will end the debate. (I can't argue anyone out of a position of absolute faith any more than I can debate the observable and well-documented fact that the Earth is round.)

People want to test. They want to observe for themselves. If other people don't want to provide evidence through which to do that, it's certainly their prerogative. But let's be clear. It's not about chest thumping or showing off. It's about what it's always been about. The proof is in the performance. And it's only natural that people should want to see that performance for themselves.


Stuart B.

[WCis4me]

Hi Joy,

5. Good wing chunners I know are not really into chest thumping, putting their scraps on videos etc. Folks need to have confidence in what they are doing or learning---- or try something else.
Actually, I am thankful that SOME do put things into video (when it is realistic and they have skill). But then again I like watching fighting (boxing, MT, MA tournaments, etc), and am a little odd.

Regards,
Vicky

[KenWingJitsu]

Good wingchunners have few clips of any kind of sparring or resistance fighting because,....so few do it to begin with.

Fajing...I would LOVE to see those clips. Cant wait.


We dont spar. Problem number one. Needs to be remedied somehow.

However, we do train every range, full force, speed, resistance (blah!) MMmmmm. okay, and what is that exactly? If it's a poor facsimilie of sparring which it sounds like, then why not just simply....spar.

the 16oz gloves come out on a regular basis - lots of boxing experience around. If you're not sparring, then what use is having "boxing experience"? Just wearing gloves doesn not realistic training make. You have to actually do it.

And, we train with real 'alive' chisao, and no video clips arent available There's no such thing as real alive chi-sao. There is nothing alive about a predetermined structure or attack. If you're doing 'spontaneous' chi-sao, then call it that. It's still not sparring.

:o And yes, I chose those quotes to make a point. Flame on. My bong-sao is ready.....;)

[Black Jack]

Look I am not bashing drills. Just the misuse.

I believe both good conceptual and techincal info can come out of a drill if the player takes into account that it is just that....a drill....a drill is like an exercise at the gym. But more specific in that it is used to increase certain martial attributes and reactions common to that set style.

Their are big differences between set exercises and chaotic street encounters. If you just stick to one format how are you going to react if that format does not fit in with the situation. Nobody just does one kind of exercise at the gym anyway, its often a complete workout, kinda like adding free/situational sparring to your training to make it more whole.

The best way to do this IMO is when your formated gameplan gets f@ckup. Which happens often in sparring and makes you think. Things like......man all this neat footwork that I learned on a flat mat in the kwoon really is not the best on a elevated surface....maybe time to break the mold and adapt.

BTW- A drill can start out and then progress to free sparring if both players don't kill the flow and let it go everywhere and anywhere.



Just thoughts.

[old jong]

This is getting hollow!...And as you know:Hollow is always louder.

[yuanfen]

Comments on Apoweyn in brackets:

We come to a discussion forum to share ideas.

((Sharing of ideas? Not enough of real ideas...Often its same same old shibboleths))

It's a logical extension of that process to illustrate ideas. I don't think anyone would argue with the idea that martial arts are in the doing. Not the discussing.

((Not quite- logical analysis of principles of an art are also inportant. Provides a standard for understanding what the doer is doing and if he is doing what he thinks he is))

So it's not that unusual that other martial artists would want to see the doing.

((Not all martial artists care to be on display when important things are not involved))

And not just have it described to them.

((Not everyone aims to please))

Folks do need to have confidence in what they're doing. But there are basically two paths to confidence: 1) observable and reproducible results that reinforce the belief or 2) faith.

((3. a modification of one. Knowing for yourself whether and when things work- doesnt have to be observable to others except yourself.))

Either works. Either will end the debate. (I can't argue anyone out of a position of absolute faith any more than I can debate the observable and well-documented fact that the Earth is round.)

((Nah--- the net has brought out a common phenomenon- debate for the sake of "hearing" oneself talk))

People want to test.

(( Some folks will take part in a test for sufficient money, sufficient principle or for experience- contexts and people vary))

The proof is in the performance.

((Sure))

And it's only natural that people should want to see that performance for themselves.

((Voyeurs too. Bad drivers show up at accident scenes too- and go out of the same door through which they entered.

BTW- I have zero desire to recruit people to my art, or to convince them that it is the "best"... bit on the net anyway-- am interested in sharing analysis of wing chun and just get a passing sense of what is going on elsewhere. Most top flight martaial artists that I know 1.are not the net 2. dont care what goes on on the net..so the net gives a skewed sense of the martial arts world))


Stuart B.

[old jong]

...We never know if that really tough m.f. who preaches his MMA gospel is not really some pimple faced teenager who's having some good times!... ;)

[Merryprankster]

ZL,

I'm not sure you're comparing an MT push kick to your WC front kick. It sounds like you were comparing an MT round kick to a WC front kick.

A Muay Thai push kick, standard, basic version, is thrown with your body square to the opponent. There is no hip rotation. It looks exactly like the kick you described. One also need not move forward, nor do they need to thrust their hips forward, although some do. So, no, I can't agree they are that different at this point. In fact, the reason I brought this up is that I was working with an MT instructor a couple of weeks ago and what he did is exactly what you described, visually.

Now, clearly, an MT round kick is different from a WC front kick, and makes use of a hip rotation for power.

That said, as fa_jing pointed out, the teep, as many call it, can be used to knock out people, and has done so on many occasions. It can also be used as a hip check, a knee check or a shin check and is done so to stop kicks as or before they start while allowing you to create a window for attack. That, incidentally, is by the by, as I was really more interested in the similar mechanics.

Secondly, I don't have a problem with yours or yuanfen's idea that difference does not equal superiority. While I disagree on the DEGREE of that difference, my beef is directed at neither of you. Yuan and I have a long standing disagreement about the degrees of similarity but he is quite articulate about what he believes and why, and I've no problem with that. Nor do I have a problem with what you are writing. I have a problem with crimsonking's not so subtle insinuations that WC is somehow above all other arts--not for a specfic person, but absolutely. That, is elitist crap.

Old Jong--Sarcastic, yes--from both sides, I'm sure ;) My point was to demonstrate that what you said is applicable to any art. It's one of those little pet peeves of mine. The truth is that ANY art takes a great deal of time to master and learn its ins and outs. If this were not true of, say, wrestling, then it would be our young buck college guys that win the olympics, based on their speed, strength, and stamina--after all, they would have learned all they really need to learn, right?

But, that's not the case. Olympic winners are usually 30+ and have been doing it longer than 20 years.

The same has held true in the throwing events.

In any endeavor where excellent skill is paramount, patience and time-in are key. The more you learn it seems the ****her you've got to go, LOL!

[apoweyn]

yuanfen,


Sharing of ideas? Not enough of real ideas...Often its same same old shibboleths

So am I boring you? This answer seems needlessly dismissive.


Not quite- logical analysis of principles of an art are also inportant. Provides a standard for understanding what the doer is doing and if he is doing what he thinks he is

Right. And is that aided or hindered by actually seeing it in action? Seems to me it would be the former. I'm not advocating video over discussion. And I believe you're smart enough to know that. So I'm unclear on your point here.


Not all martial artists care to be on display when important things are not involved

And that's fine. If that's the reasoning, I'm in no position to talk them out of that. Just as long as they don't expect me to believe everything they say at face value. If they don't care what I believe, then we can both be on our merry ways, I suppose.


Not everyone aims to please

Clearly. But this isn't really a point.


3. a modification of one. Knowing for yourself whether and when things work- doesnt have to be observable to others except yourself.

Curious how often people feel justified in telling others how a style should be done but are suddenly content to keep their own counsel when evidence is requested.


Nah--- the net has brought out a common phenomenon- debate for the sake of "hearing" oneself talk

Granted. But I was giving my conversation with you the benefit of the doubt.


Some folks will take part in a test for sufficient money, sufficient principle or for experience- contexts and people vary

I'm talking about testing for experience. Does that clear up the context?


Voyeurs too. Bad drivers show up at accident scenes too- and go out of the same door through which they entered.

Voyeurs might be analogous to spectators at a fight. Not really to other martial artists who want to observe a fight (sparring session, etc.) to learn something more about theory and practice. So I'm again unclear on the point of this analogy.


BTW- I have zero desire to recruit people to my art, or to convince them that it is the "best"... bit on the net anyway-- am interested in sharing analysis of wing chun and just get a passing sense of what is going on elsewhere. Most top flight martaial artists that I know 1.are not the net 2. dont care what goes on on the net..so the net gives a skewed sense of the martial arts world

I'm not talking about being recruited. Nor am I talking about seeing the 'top flight martial artists.' I'm simply asking for visual support to people's descriptions of how the style works. If they're willing to provide text-based information (and have the technological resources), I don't see what the problem is with providing visual backup. It would be extremely helpful for those of us who haven't seen it. That's all.


Stuart B.

[rubthebuddha]

merry -- the mt push kick and the wc front kick are very similar, but there are some striking (pun intended, i guess) differences, both in structure and application. i won't even bother with the internal stuff for now. also note -- nothing in this is meant as a claim of superiority, just a statement of similarities and differences.

1. both kicks keep the hips square to the opponent. turning the hips on such a movement uses different muscles
2. both kicks are typically low, but a wc front kick will also be used to attack the legs as well
3. the push kick uses the ball of the foot as the striking surface, the wc front kick uses the heel. the reason wc uses the heel is that it's more robust than the ball of the foot, and it's right in line with the shinbone up to the knee. however, a push kick with the ball of the foot can employ calf muscles for more oomph.
4. the push kick is mainly that -- a push with the front of the foot. the wc kick is a stomp. not a push, not a flick, not a snap, but a stomp.
5. the push kick keeps the knee of the kicking leg in front of the body, while the wc kick rotates the kicking hip so the knee is pointed somewhat out (right knee pointed somewhat to the right). a couple reasons for this: (a) strength - like being able to squat more with the toes turned out slightly, having the knee pointed out allows a stronger movement, (b) jamming - if your leg is directly in front of you and it gets jammed while someone is closing, as the knee bends, the hamstring and the calf will eventually meet. when this happens, the knee can collapse no more, is pushed back against the torso and the body begins to be pushed back. this also means that your leg can be pushed up to the area in which your hands typically operate. having the knee bend outward means jamming is less of an issue, and the leg won't be in the way of your hands as much.

these are some of the major similarities and differences. i hope others can add to this list.

btw -- sparring tonight, and my hamstrings are hating me. life is good. :cool:

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Merry,

I wasn't talking about a round kick. Mine was from the perspective of a Hapkido and TKD front thrust kick, where you do use your hip to help drive the kick through. I've seen Muay Thai stylists do the same, so I assumed that was the kick you meant. Obviously, you were talking about a different kick.

So let me ask you this, what is the source of power of a Muay Thai push kick? Perhaps you can describe it in more detail?

Despite our apparent agreement of what the form looks like, at least in writing, I have a feeling we have different images of the of the respective kicks in our heads. Our front kick does not depend on hip rotation or on the transferrence of body momentum. Ideally, whether we kick an opponent, a wooden post, or thin air, our bodies (spine and head) are entirely straight and vertical, and there almost no perceptible movement in any other part of the body besides the kicking leg. If we have this on film, and we we digitally removed the kicking leg, there would be little to no indication that anything was happening. You'd see a guy standing on one leg almost motionless.

If Muay Thai has this, I'd be very interested in seeing this, because I have not seen it anywhere else. I have not seen any Thai boxing matches where people kick like this. So if you don't mind, can you elaborate on the mechanics of the push kick and the source of power? I'm very curious about this.

Thanks,
Zhuge Liang

[Edmund]

Hi fellas,

I'm nothing special but I have also done Muay Thai for about a year and I still do some. Last year I did a few days training with
Yuttana Wongbandue, a coach from Bangkok.

He pretty did front kicks the same way as WC I reckon so I agree with Merryprankster. Other WCers will disagree based on their perspectives.

The problem with WC people is that they often do not play well with others. :) Or even each other sometimes. That is WC's weakness. Hence you get WC sparring that no one likes. And even some discussions that no one likes.

WC's popularity means that not everyone is going to be particularly good. It would take a very skilled WCer to be able to satisfy every other WCer's expectations of what good WC fighting should look like. In the end, people just settle for trying to satisfy their own expectations rather than the world's. A reasonable goal.

Less skilled can still chain punch and front kick :).




Originally posted by Merryprankster
A Muay Thai push kick, standard, basic version, is thrown with your body square to the opponent. There is no hip rotation. It looks exactly like the kick you described. One also need not move forward, nor do they need to thrust their hips forward, although some do. So, no, I can't agree they are that different at this point. In fact, the reason I brought this up is that I was working with an MT instructor a couple of weeks ago and what he did is exactly what you described, visually.

[yuanfen]

Apoweyn- I am not being obtuse---we dont do videos of training sessions. Myself- I bought a camcorder to take pictures of my dog for an out of state vet's research project on heat tolerance- the camcorder has been sitting there unused for two years.
No- you are not boring me.

If you are around Phoenix sometimes- a very civil and open comment- let me know- I can show you and explain some things about wing chun directly if you are interested.. I dont give out general invitations.
Or poor second choice- let me know where you are and if I make it that way- we can see about sharing. I do travel from time to time- but it is wing chun related. My home obligations places some limits. BTW- good wing chun involves micromotions that do NOT show up well on videos unless you already know a lot of wing chun. Lots of folks make wrong inferences from videos.

BTW--perhaps not so obvious---my intention is to share and converse when there is an interesting topic- I am not out to lecture people who choose to go a different way in wing chun or MA. On the net all kinds of inferences- often wrong- on tone, nuances and motivations abound. What is boring-- is the repeated unanalytical knee jerk cries..."spar", "go to the ground",
etc....

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
BTW--perhaps not so obvious---my intention is to share and converse when there is an interesting topic-

Sounds good... can you explain how you do your particular form of chi sao that makes it transferable to real-world fighting?

[yuanfen]

Knifefighter-sez
Sounds good... can you explain how you do your particular form of chi sao that makes it transferable to real-world fighting?
---------------------------------------------
Do you really mean real world fighting? Or simulation of fighting- sparring.? The former includes the real possibility of death. The latter- submission, knockout, crying uncle, maybe a broken nose,
a cut or concussion.

Again - repeating myself--- chi sao is NOT a drill- though what you have seen maybe. It is a laboratory of timing dvelopment and what to do in seeking, breaking, retaining, closing and manipulating contact in many kinds of motion and movement- sitting, standing, walking, moving, turning, under varying levels of pressure with indivisuals- with more than one individual.

BTW- given your screen name-the best knife fighters I have known are from the northern part of my home state and beyond- the Gurkhas-they are for real-- though they dont do videos for KFO or skeptics!!

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Seems to depend on how you define it here. Why don't you tell me your definition? Your definition of fighting fits the bill. So the question that remains is: based on your definition of what "fighting" is, what is the different between fighting and chi sau?

[Merryprankster]

the best knife fighters I have known are from the northern part of my home state and beyond- the Gurkhas-they are for real-- though they dont do videos for KFO or skeptics!!

True, but we have some real history, not histrionics, that lets us know just how feared they really were/are! :D

rubthebuddha, w/regards to your 4 and 5, which were differences between the MT push kick and the WC front kick, that really depends on who is throwing it and how it is being used. I have seen a push kick thrown with the heel as well as with the knee turned out. Especially if used as a hip, knee or shin check. It really just depends.

I do acknowledge, however, that the standard push kick is thrown with the ball of the foot, not the heel. However, I would not personally classify this as a major difference.

ZL, I have seen both the push kicks you describe, the one where the MT stylist leans well back and pushes their hip forward, and also where they just pick their leg up, and there is almost no movement in the rest of their body. While the first is longer range, and many have experienced success with it, I find it awkward (proof that WC is superior? LOL :D). I prefer the second.

I was doing some light sparring with an MT instructor I know and he does the second one, the one similar to your WC front kick, almost exclusively. He's there in stance, then, all of a sudden, you have a foot in your gut/chest/hip, wherever, and you're moving backwards/writhing in pain :). It took me a couple of shots to figure out exactly what he was doing, but it reminded me very much of the videos I've seen here, Emin Boztepe and others, using that kick.

As far as power source, I can't be 100% certain--kicking isn't my forte. I need to play around with it more. As far as I can tell right now though, based on my limited use in drills and being on the receiving end of it, the majority of the power seems to come from nothing more than proper structure and angling. This makes it difficult to use a common counter--sweeping the leg to the side/kickcatch and tripping or punching, which I can do with some regularity with the other version. The recovery is remarkably fast because you are never extending/overextending body parts, so mobility isn't impaired on landing.

EnterTheWhip; the difference between fighting and chi sao (or sparring) is the difference between manslaughter and homicide--intent. The other guy in a fight probably wants to hurt you, without regard for your safety or improving your skills or grabbing a pint later. I'm assuming your chi sao (or sparring) partner isn't an immature hothead and conducts himself/herself in a manner consistent with safety and skill improvement while still doing his/her utmost to beat your ass senseless. :P

If you start your Chi Sao well apart, without contact, and both parties are now attempting to "do their thing," then I would say you are sparring, by my definition. If you are starting from a position that presumes entry has already occurred and contact has begun, then I would argue you are drilling, by my definition.

This *may* be an issue of terminology and semantics, vice horrible disagreement.

[yuanfen]

Quick responses in brackets to MP before doing the am dog exercise thing:

If you start your Chi Sao well apart, without contact, and both parties are now attempting to "do their thing," then I would say you are sparring, by my definition.

((The chi sao I do is a continuum- includes randomly changing from
poon sao (Rolling contact) to breaking off, turning, stepping, standing, moving away, closing the gap, lop sao(quasi grabbing),
leg work, attacking and above all controlling. Your definition chi sao possibly- but sparring means other things to some. Beginners and many wcers dont go through what I describe-
wing chun world is a very uneven one. One has to stay the course with good instruction rather than just picking up pointers.))))

EnterTheWhip; the difference between fighting and chi sao (or sparring) is the difference between manslaughter and homicide--intent.

((Enough wing chun and you can use whatever intentional gear you wish or is required)))

ZL, I have seen both the push kicks you describe, the one where the MT stylist leans well back and pushes their hip forward, and also where they just pick their leg up, and there is almost no movement in the rest of their body

((A true wing chun kick disguises movement))

True, but we have some real history, not histrionics, that lets us know just how feared they really were/are!

((Regarding the Gurkhas... only with the induction by the Brits
was so called any history on the Gurkhas written. But without written history knowledgeable folks just knew- the Gurkhas saw action against various invaders long before the Brits. History -has many meanings and faces- to some chronology, others oral passing of tradition, some pictographs, others spaced knots ona thread,
some songs, some a dance drama))

((PS. MT became a national sport in old Siam. BJJ spread in Brazil.WC was and is not a national sport. The real core of WC was fairly small. CMA was richly varied---family arts, temple arts,rebel arts, guerrilla arts, village arts, brigands art etc.
Hence samples of top flight wing chun is more rare than top flight
MT and BJJ. Gotta go- my four legged highness calls))

[kj]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
EnterTheWhip; the difference between fighting and chi sao (or sparring) is the difference between manslaughter and homicide--intent. The other guy in a fight probably wants to hurt you, without regard for your safety or improving your skills or grabbing a pint later.

I can agree with that.



I'm assuming your chi sao (or sparring) partner isn't an immature hothead and conducts himself/herself in a manner consistent with safety and skill improvement while still doing his/her utmost to beat your ass senseless. :P

The way many people on this forum write and admonish others, it appears that they do indeed believe everyone who doesn't practice this way is remiss or foolish. That is where I beg to differ.

To set aside concern for one's safety and well-being in any scenario is foolishness, IMHO. Still, I respect people's right to be as foolhardy as they wish to be.

There are apparently some amongst us who do not commensurately respect the right and responsibility I and others hold to manage our own safety and well-being as we see fit.


If you start your Chi Sao well apart, without contact, and both parties are now attempting to "do their thing," then I would say you are sparring, by my definition. If you are starting from a position that presumes entry has already occurred and contact has begun, then I would argue you are drilling, by my definition.

We do indeed have "lat sau" (not specifically the WT variety) and "gor sau." So I guess by this definition, more of us "spar" more often than we think we do.


This *may* be an issue of terminology and semantics, vice horrible disagreement.

As I and some others have said many times. Until there can be whole, finite, and universal agreement on the nuances and distinctions between chi sau, sparring, fighting, self-defense and the like, there will always be this.

Very reasonable post, Merry, and apologies for stepping in where someone else was being addressed.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
The other guy in a fight probably wants to hurt you, without regard for your safety or improving your skills or grabbing a pint later. What about the safety of your opponent?

By the way, MP, I forgot that you don't do Wing Chun, and discussing this with you is pointless. This is more for everyone else - people who do Wing Chun, and perhaps some of which, actually understand it.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Apoweyn- I am not being obtuse---we dont do videos of training sessions. Myself- I bought a camcorder to take pictures of my dog for an out of state vet's research project on heat tolerance- the camcorder has been sitting there unused for two years.
No- you are not boring me.

If you are around Phoenix sometimes- a very civil and open comment- let me know- I can show you and explain some things about wing chun directly if you are interested.. I dont give out general invitations.
Or poor second choice- let me know where you are and if I make it that way- we can see about sharing. I do travel from time to time- but it is wing chun related. My home obligations places some limits. BTW- good wing chun involves micromotions that do NOT show up well on videos unless you already know a lot of wing chun. Lots of folks make wrong inferences from videos.

BTW--perhaps not so obvious---my intention is to share and converse when there is an interesting topic- I am not out to lecture people who choose to go a different way in wing chun or MA. On the net all kinds of inferences- often wrong- on tone, nuances and motivations abound. What is boring-- is the repeated unanalytical knee jerk cries..."spar", "go to the ground",
etc....


Yuanfen,

Okay, so you don't video training sessions. And that's fine. What I'm objecting to is the inference that the only reason to do so is showing off on the internet. It's a tool that helps us get on the same page in these discussions. That's all. You don't do it, and that's fine. If I'm ever out in Phoenix, I'll let you know. I'm in the DC metro area myself.

I agree that kneejerk cries of "spar" and "go to the ground" are dull. Assuming they don't lead anywhere. But there are a lot of well spoken people here for whom "spar" is where the discussion starts. And that is not dull. It can get confrontational. But not dull.

You're certainly right about inferences on the internet. But then, that's another reason why I find video helpful. Granted, some movements are going to be small enough that video won't do them justice. But without even that much, even a statement like "the blah blah round kick is really fast" is completely meaningless. There's no concrete definition of "really fast." Or "economical" or "effective" or anything else we bandy around as descriptors here.

Anyway, I understand that you don't video things. I'm not going to badger you about it further.


Stuart B.

[yuanfen]

Stuart B- in one of the threads I gave a list of possible sources
for seeing chi sao demos.

As for "the blah blah round kick is really fast"-thats not my style of communication.

In any case- with good wishes, Joy

[Merryprankster]

By the way, MP, I forgot that you don't do Wing Chun, and discussing this with you is pointless.

Then I will bow out of responding to you.

kj-- thank you, and no need to apologize. This is a public forum despite what many would like to believe or prefer. You have the right to comment or respond to whatever you wish.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Stuart B- in one of the threads I gave a list of possible sources
for seeing chi sao demos.

As for "the blah blah round kick is really fast"-thats not my style of communication.

In any case- with good wishes, Joy


Joy,

I understand that's not your way of communicating. No worries. That wasn't really directed at you. Just a general comment on the worth of visual media.

I've seen lots of demos of chisao. I was hoping to see something a little more... freestyle, I suppose.

Anyway, thanks for the chat.


Stuart B.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by apoweyn
But there are a lot of well spoken people here for whom "spar" is where the discussion starts. And that is not dull. I certainly think it is. There is a common thread among Wing Chun advocators of sparring, and in terms of Wing Chun and usually many other aspects of being, it is not favorable quality.

[Edmund]

Hi Guys,

When I first posted on this topic I mentioned that maybe the people in the clips should try with the headgear off.

But since that woman got killed in the toughman comp. (wearing all the protection), I think maybe some of those people in the clips should not be sparring at all.

She was unfit but not that old. She only did 3 one minute rounds with 16 ounce gloves and headgear.

Face it. Some beginners will not be ready to do full contact sparring. They may not be fit enough, skilled enough, or smart enough to know when to quit. They could get KOed in seconds if they are thrown in too early or not supervised correctly. They aren't going to learn a **** thing if they are too punch drunk to see straight.

[yuanfen]

The lady was from Tucson, Arizona. The Arizona Boxing commission said that they would never have sanctioned the fight-
given the lack of fitness.
Who knows- they aint saints.

[yuanfen]

BTW choking a fit person in a sporting event- and doing the same to an unfit person or doing it ignorantly can be quite dangerous. There have been several choking deaths in the Phoenix metro by law enforcement people. One( several years ago) was an overweight person
with artificial lower limbs! Guess which side lost the subsequent law suit.