why the pole?

[TjD]

just for some conversation:

1. are there any current day WC systems that don't have a pole form?

2 supposedly the WC pole was added to the system later in its lifetime. what does the pole form add to the system that it was previously lacking? (besides a pole form :D )

3. can it be done without in this modern day where we don't walk around with a 9' long pole and would our our empty handed WC suffer?

on another note,

4. as a mental exercise, how could have adding a pole form to the curriculum change the olden day WC and how it was performed as a whole, leading to how WC is today?

[Phil Redmond]

The 9' "and up" pole trains cheung kiu lihk, (long bridge strength). The long poles were meant for training. The combat pole would be considerably shorter. At least it would be in TWC. Any stick like object can be used from things in modern daily life once you know the pole.
PR

[namron]

Originally posted by TjD
just for some conversation:

1. are there any current day WC systems that don't have a pole form?

2 supposedly the WC pole was added to the system later in its lifetime. what does the pole form add to the system that it was previously lacking? (besides a pole form :D )

3. can it be done without in this modern day where we don't walk around with a 9' long pole and would our our empty handed WC suffer?

on another note,

4. as a mental exercise, how could have adding a pole form to the curriculum change the olden day WC and how it was performed as a whole, leading to how WC is today?

1. Dont know
2. Adds about 9ft of range.
3. The pole concentrates a lot on using the point to punture with, this can be done with any shorter tool. The end of the pole delivers a lot of pressure of a small surface area, which can be more powerful than swinging the stick and definately quicker.
4. If not introduced we would probably have a lot less interpretive variations of the form between wc families!

[WCis4me]

The Pole is difficult to handle and heavy. As I understand, the purpose of it is for training in a few areas.
1. Balance
2. Strength
3. Centerline
4. Extended bridge

It is taught so that you learn to have greater control over the center of gravity (centerline) of your body, during your wc forms, despite having something heavy and extended added to it.
Also it gives you the ability to use anything as a weapon effectively, employing your wing chun skills, should the need arise.

Imagine you are walking down the street, someone tries to attack you with a bat, you get it away from them, but you can't/don't know how to, use your wing chun skills with the bat in your hand and you can't put it down as they would grab it and pummel you with it. So you swing about wildly hoping for an exit.

Wouldn't it be better to know that you had the skill to be able to be more effective or to be able to rely on your wc skills instead of relying on pure luck should this situation arise? If you train with the pole you will know how to use your wc forms with something that is serving as an extension to your bridge.

Another way to look at the bat scenario as well....... baseball players become better hitters through batting practice because they learn how to use the bat more efficiently with their body, as an extension of their arm (aim, power, torque, etc).

4. as a mental exercise, how could have adding a pole form to the curriculum change the olden day WC and how it was performed as a whole, leading to how WC is today?
I think the long pole may have came about for the same reason a joust did (which was very popular for tournaments and such).
For situations where range was more effective for combat. It could very well be that someone who had a long stick/rod/pole for fishing maybe, thought 'hey this could be weapon, lets learn how to use it.'(just pure speculation) Who knows. If nothing else it is a great thing to learn for balance and control in your forms, I would think.


Vicky

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by WCis4me
The Pole is difficult to handle and heavy. As I understand, the purpose of it is for training in a few areas.
Vicky

What sort of overall benefits have you found that training the pole has given to your wing chun?

[WCis4me]

Hi Burnsypoo,

I guess you missed the part of my quote that says 'as I understand it' or the part where I said 'Who knows. If nothing else it is a great thing to learn for balance and control in your forms, I would think.'
I never said I had, or was even close to the level to train with it. I simply gave why I think/understand/have heard from those that do know it, the purpose of it being taught and used. The thread was started as 'just for conversation', I didn't realize that I wasn't invited to share my ideas on it unless I had trained extensively in it.
Is there a reason that your only post regarding this topic was a question to me rather than a contribution as to why you feel the pole came about and what you feel the benifits/lack of benifits are?

Regards,
Vicky

[reneritchie]

Gives you a nice summation of the Weng Chun Kuen system, including a lot of pretty vicious close body application, locks, breaks, etc.

[Ernie]

POWER
that's the main difference I have seen in my self and in all the students that train the pole in my school
structural coordination and focused mental intent .
the pole done with bad structure feels heavy , as your structure starts to gel together under the added stress of the pole it becomes very light and flows to the end of the weapon uninhibited by body tension.
once you have to hit moving targets ,and do two man drills plus sparring with the pole you footwork improves and your depth perception .
as the saying goes the pole only makes one sound , you learn to focus all these elements power,structure,motion,and mental intent . into one explosive action
and when I get lazy and stop training the pole for a few months'' like right now '' I notice a loss of elbow and wrist power .
also when you do the pole people will tell you feel very stable and heavy , hard to move.

[EnterTheWhip]

The pole signifies all of the essentials for a complete martial system.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by WCis4me
Hi Burnsypoo,

I guess you missed the part of my quote that says 'as I understand it' or the part where I said 'Who knows. If nothing else it is a great thing to learn for balance and control in your forms, I would think.'
I never said I had, or was even close to the level to train with it. I simply gave why I think/understand/have heard from those that do know it, the purpose of it being taught and used. The thread was started as 'just for conversation', I didn't realize that I wasn't invited to share my ideas on it unless I had trained extensively in it.
Is there a reason that your only post regarding this topic was a question to me rather than a contribution as to why you feel the pole came about and what you feel the benifits/lack of benifits are?

Regards,
Vicky

Interesting response.
I was curious as to experiences to overall benefits noticed, hence I asked. Nothing implied, no need to be on the defensive.

Relax a bit, not everyone here is out to get you.

[WCis4me]

What sort of overall benefits have you found that training the pole has given to your wing chun?
You asked, I answered that I had never given any inclination that I ever had trained with it. I mentioned that you must have missed that part of my quote, as you asked me specifically about my training with the pole.
I noted that I found it curious that you didn't have anything to say on the topic (and still haven't) with regards to your training on it. I also noted about not realizing that I had to have experience to contribute to the discussion, as your post seemed to imply that I should.
I was sure that I have been frank in my profile, posts, etc that I am a beginner in training and therefore would have no 'hands on' experience with things taught at an advanced level. I assume most people who frequent these boards are aware of that.
Based on that and my wording used in the post, I found your question (directed to me) odd. My apologies if I misunderstood it in anyway.
I am very relaxed thank you, despite the fact that I know you are ALL out to get me ;) LOL

Vicky

[PaulH]

Renee is correct! If you look at the concentrated power and position of the tight gripping hands of the pole, you will see why it is devastating for close body applications and useful for grappling action. In kali, it is useless to know millions of the techniques if you cannot hold the stick under heavy impacts. If you can hold the pole like a light feather. Now you are talking about real wrist and body power - very useful against grapplers.

Regards,

[Cashier Graham]

The pole is useful because it's a beast of a weapon, if you do want to use it then save it for the battlefield on horseback;) Doing lots of circular movements and footwork with the pole in hand helps strengthen most if not all the upperbody effectively, with particular stress on the forearms and shoulders (for those of you wondering what that pain was!). Augustine Fong teaches that it is named 6 1/2 point because that is the most vibrations you can get out of it when you thrust it down from shoulder height (movements 7-9(roughly) in his form). This trains your fa-ging and inch force as well as raw strength and power. Afterall weapon training is usually used for strength development, like weightlifting.

[Spark]

Originally posted by WCis4me


I am very relaxed thank you, despite the fact that I know you are ALL out to get me ;) LOL

Vicky

Vicky, I can't speak for 'burnsy' but often I read a post and completely miss key parts of what the person has said. Sometime you kinda just skip over until you get to the important stuff. I've made plenty of posts and then reread what I was answering to - only to realize that I completely read their post wrong, even though stuff was written there plain as day.

PS I"M OUT TO GET YOU!!!!!!

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by Spark


Vicky, I can't speak for 'burnsy' but often I read a post and completely miss key parts of what the person has said. Sometime you kinda just skip over until you get to the important stuff. I've made plenty of posts and then reread what I was answering to - only to realize that I completely read their post wrong, even though stuff was written there plain as day.

PS I"M OUT TO GET YOU!!!!!!
Hi Spark,
Yup I hear you, I am guilty of the same from time to time (getting more frequent lately).
Sometimes I even re-read my own posts and think geez that does sound ****y (notice almost all my posts have editing lol). I am really very friendly and easy going, but some of my writings seem to indicate otherwise. What can I say but, I am a work in progress, lol.

SEEEEEE I knew YOU were ALL out to GET ME!!!! The voices of the 5 elders kept telling me......not to mention King Monkey (who sounds an awful lot like darth vader btw) lol.....but would I listen........noooooooo......
:D

Vicky

[TjD]

i love the answers and i agree with most of them, but im gonna play the devil's advocate :D



Originally posted by Cashier Graham
The pole is useful because it's a beast of a weapon, if you do want to use it then save it for the battlefield on horseback;) Doing lots of circular movements and footwork with the pole in hand helps strengthen most if not all the upperbody effectively, with particular stress on the forearms and shoulders (for those of you wondering what that pain was!). Augustine Fong teaches that it is named 6 1/2 point because that is the most vibrations you can get out of it when you thrust it down from shoulder height (movements 7-9(roughly) in his form). This trains your fa-ging and inch force as well as raw strength and power. Afterall weapon training is usually used for strength development, like weightlifting.


but, like i said in my questions. we really don't ever walk around with a pole nowadays. couldnt we mabye get the same strength gains, if not quicker, by weightlifting properly?

as to the name of the pole, i always heard it was because there are 6.5 points (techniques) in the pole form - and there are at least in our version.


i very much agree with rene in that the rudimentary chin na taught by using the pole form on someone elses arm can be quite vicious/useful :D


as to a forearm/wrist workout.... after beginning to learn the knife form, the pole doesn't compare :D


personally, i think the biggest benefits from the pole aside from the chin na is really forces you to unify your whole body. the gains in strength/structure from shifting with the pole are probably the most beneficial. if your body is disjointed, theres no way you'll be able to whip that pole around.

also, the low horse stance trains the opposite of our typical stance - knees turned out instead of turned in. this is extremely important as training one without the other can lead to a lopsidedness in our legs, and can be harmful for the hip/knee joints. not the mention the fact that being able to quickly drop back into a horse stance has done wonders for me in my brief experiences with having someone try to take me down.

[Cashier Graham]

Originally posted by TjD


but, like i said in my questions. we really don't ever walk around with a pole nowadays. couldnt we mabye get the same strength gains, if not quicker, by weightlifting properly?

as to the name of the pole, i always heard it was because there are 6.5 points (techniques) in the pole form - and there are at least in our version.


No we don't walk around with poles anymore and yes correct weightlifting would give better strength gains. We were told the 6.5 techniques as well as the vibrations as explanations for the name, but it's not important. However poles exist in the real world, but if you saw one as big as the WC pole leave it be and use your fists (unless they're armed).

[Ernie]

travis
but, like i said in my questions. we really don't ever walk around with a pole nowadays. couldnt we mabye get the same strength gains, if not quicker, by weightlifting properly?

dude ,
i have been dealing with that question since i was first handed the pole and taught the form , i hate forms and i had un realistic training just for the sake of preserving history.
after a few years of internal dialogue , i just accept it as a coordination tool and mental focus tool .
we have a pole dummy at our school this thing swings side to side with another target a foot or so behind it that also moves around and we have to tap the first and hit the second and be out in one action .
this plus the two man drills i got some live foot work and explosive power from .
but nothing i couldn't develop on a heavy bag or with focus mitts and a good feeder.
but i'm athletic so i had certain abilities before wing chun . it's they regular people i see the greatest change in

[TjD]

Originally posted by Ernie
travis
but, like i said in my questions. we really don't ever walk around with a pole nowadays. couldnt we mabye get the same strength gains, if not quicker, by weightlifting properly?

dude ,
i have been dealing with that question since i was first handed the pole and taught the form , i hate forms and i had un realistic training just for the sake of preserving history.
after a few years of internal dialogue , i just accept it as a coordination tool and mental focus tool .
we have a pole dummy at our school this thing swings side to side with another target a foot or so behind it that also moves around and we have to tap the first and hit the second and be out in one action .
this plus the two man drills i got some live foot work and explosive power from .
but nothing i couldn't develop on a heavy bag or with focus mitts and a good feeder.
but i'm athletic so i had certain abilities before wing chun . it's they regular people i see the greatest change in



just because the lifting thing has been argued to death (and people get all riled up about it), i'm going to change the topic. i both lift and do WC and neither suffer IMHO, and my sifu hasn't complained yet :) but i'm a naturally relaxed kinda guy.


anyhow, to one of my other questions. does anyone have any thoughts on how adding the pole form to WC would have changed the effect the WC system had on its students?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
but nothing i couldn't develop on a heavy bag or with focus mitts and a good feeder.The heavy bag and focus pads are large targets which are not at all difficult to "master". The pole takes your training and skill to a much higher level. Not a good idea to neglect it.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by TjD
does anyone have any thoughts on how adding the pole form to WC would have changed the effect the WC system had on its students? I guess few of us would really know since the undermining of the pole's importance has been fostered by most Wing Chun teachers for a number of decades. Undermining is not necessarily done verbally, it can be done by lack of action.

[mun hung]

These are very true words.

[Ernie]

etw
The heavy bag and focus pads are large targets which are not at all difficult to "master". The pole takes your training and skill to a much higher level. Not a good idea to neglect it.
i agree if your going to have to fight with a pole
but i'm talking about the bare bones body mechnics , power release balance and intent . that transfer back into the empty hands .
it's one of those things were you have to ask your self how much time am i going to put into a dead weapon to master it vs. what attributes do i gain from training that weapon that improve the empty hand .
this is why other training aids if your mwntal intent is focused on the specific attribute can give you the core skill in a more progressive and modern approach .
but first you have to understand what the pole is trying to teach you .
but once you have the feeling and idea .there is no need to spend time to master a pole , since you will never fight with one and the time you waste on it's mastery could be better spent on things that directly improve your hand skills .
unless you just like the pole and wish to preserve history then by all means tap and poke away.
it's in my nature to look for the idea behind something then try to find a more modern way to develop that skill
but i'm sick that way.:D

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
it's one of those things where you have to ask your self how much time am i going to put into a dead weapon to master it vs. what attributes do i gain from training that weapon that improve the empty hand .A dead weapon that would make your Wing Chun more alive, especially your empty hands. Without the pole and knives/swords your hands will be limited.

but first you have to understand what the pole is trying to teach you. First you have to train the pole full heartedly(without dreams of focus pad training) to understand what the pole is trying to teach you.

[Deathrobe]

heheh pole training has helped me to use a broomstick,pool stick more effeciently

[Ernie]

etw
point taken
but once you got it , yout got it no need to beat a dead horse and continue to do the same old thing when there are other area's that you can use to expand and evolve the skill . the pole is very basic , it doesn't take a life time to master ,
even now ive been doing it for years and sparring , drilling what ever .
i'll go a few months woth out it and pick t back up and be better then i was before
but when i see guys in class spending all day on it month after month , yet they don't get any better at anything else as they waste to much time on a dead weapon '' unless of course you walk around with pool cues and broom stick's all day ''
it's better to break down what the pole gives you '' structure , intent , focus ,and some theory '' and apply that to a moving target that is fighting back .
not some other guy with a pole what are the chances you are going to get in a fight and both you and the other person are going to have poles compared to the chances were you both will be empty handed
i would rather focus my time on dealing with a live opponent
what you develop there far exceds what just working the pole over and over again will give you.
as for the knives i am a firm believer in any bladed weapon training , that to me is even more important then sparring since it highly develops the attributes you need in a street fight
but to each there own and what ever makes you happy or you find improves you there are many roads to the same place.
and etw to be honest my teacher gets on me all the time cus i rarely train the pole any more i even heard it today
so i will keep a open mind . ha...

[EnterTheWhip]

I keep forgetting that there a few significantly different standpoints from which we discuss Wing Chun.

The 2 major categories being:
1. Discussing Wing Chun from the standpoint of constantly improving one's Wing Chun in order to become a better martial artist.
2. Discussing it from the standpoint of improving one's streetfight abilities.

I'm #1. You seem to be #2. Therefore, discussing this with you was pointless for both of us.

[Ernie]

etw
The 2 major categories being: 1. Discussing Wing Chun from the standpoint of constantly improving one's Wing Chun in order to become a better martial artist.
2. Discussing it from the standpoint of improving one's streetfight abilities
your right i am only interested at this point in my life in what is effective , as i am in my research and development stage for my own personal growth.
i understand you better now to see yoou are more into the '' wing chun art'' side of it .
perhaps many years from now after i have gained from all the experiences i subject myself to , i will mellow out and refine the artistic side but for now i am only interested in the combative side on a personal level , guess that makes me a little narrow minded and selfish . but we all have to be alittle crazy to do this stuff in the days when guns and lawyers have the final say...;)

[mun hung]

The people who took the pole and developed it for the use of Wing Chun were geniuses. I cannot fathom the amount of time it must have taken to think it all out because the pole means so much to Wing Chun. And I'm not talking about the fighting aspect of the pole either (which is great). The pole training itself is a very important part of developing good fighting hands and the overall conditioning of the body specifically for Wing Chun. I think that anyone who has truly trained with it knows what I mean. And I'm not talking about doing the pole form and/or doing "sticky stick" exercises.

The pole IS Wing Chun.

[EnterTheWhip]

Well put.