shuai chiao, judo?

[neit]

are judo and shuai chiao extrememly different? or do they have the same basic idea. i know that some shuai chiao school do striking and chin na. but i am refering to the grappling part. any help?

[Sho]

I don't exactly study Shuai Jiao as a separate art, because some of it is already included in my school's curriculum.

Anyway. The major difference between Shuai Jiao and judo is that judo's main things are its gi throws, while Shuai Jiao uses the opponent's body for grabbing and throwing (thus 'wrestling'). Both arts have many joint locks.

[chen zhen]

SJ does not have ground-grappling (nake-waza). Judo does throws designed for sport-practise, and SJ does throws designed to hurt people, like dropping the opp. on their head and spine..(this does not say that Judo throws are not dangerous!;))

[neit]

hmmm interesting. the non-gi aspect of shuai chiao would be an advantage as far as self defence goes. in any case, judo is the only one available in my area. since i am quiting kung-fu and starting kendo, i want to also do some empty handed training once or twice a week. i thought of still going to kung fu once a week but my lessons are pretty week and i am quite fed up with my kwoon. thus, i figure some sort of grappling style may be good.

[Merryprankster]

All grappling has the same basic idea. Minor variations, or specific emphases, however, can have a big impact on the "flavor."

Watching some of the fight videos that were posted before, it was clear one of the guys was an SC player. I was pretty impressed by the amount of air time he was getting on his throws. On the other hand, the yahoo he was throwing was clearly clueless.

Whenever I see wrestling/grappling, it always looks like wrestling/grappling to me. But, then again good principles transcend styles.

Me? I'd love to do some SC. My stand-up grappling is average from an athletic point of view. I have a couple of good takedowns but that's about it.

[Black Jack]

Silat styles also have nasty throwing and takedown methods.

Plus most people don't give credit to the takedown methods of western wrestling when used on the street. Greco-Roman stuff is nasty.

[dwid]

I've played at a little Shuai Chiao and a tiny bit of Judo, and I know some people firmly entrenched in both camps.

My major complaint with Shuai Chiao is that it tends to rely on throws to the exclusion of everything else (such as ground grappling or striking). The trouble with this is that most grapplers will tell you that against a resisting opponent, a throw is about the most technically difficult thing to pull off. By practicing it almost exclusively, SC guys probably have an edge on pulling them off at full speed with resistance, but if they fail at the throw, there aren't a lot of other tools to fall back on.

On the other hand, most Judo guys are more comfortable actually grappling, whether that be a standing lock or a takedown/submission kind of thing. It seems this sort of approach gives you a higher margin of error.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, but almost all SC guys also crosstrain in other arts. Xingyi is a popular one, as is taiji with all it's qinna.

[Merryprankster]

Crosstraining is de debil.

Anyway, I disagree about the SC and Judo thing w/regards to dropping people on their heads. You wanna drop somebody on their head, just don't quite finish the throw :D

[Black Jack]

That's weird you said that Merry. Just yesterday I was at my FMA class which also incorporates ju jitsu training and the instructor mentioned if he wanted to get nasty he would just not finnish the throw.

Bring him up and stop right there.

[dwid]

Yeah, but almost all SC guys also crosstrain in other arts. Xingyi is a popular one, as is taiji with all it's qinna.

True dat....

When I was trying to fit it into my schedule I was adding it to Bagua, which I think is a pretty tight combo. Most of the guys I knew who had been at it awhile were doing Taiji.

[Chang Style Novice]

It's my understanding that GM Chang knew bagua really well and used it's footwork for entry a lot.

[Merryprankster]

Yup. Once you know the guy is up and over, just....let go.

[Suntzu]

I've bumped my head plenty in Judo… mostly b'cuz of some white belt…

[dwid]

I got a concussion from a Judo white belt.

It took months to completely get the feeling back in my right foot.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I've heard the striking is easier aurgument my entire life. But maybe because I started in Judo / Jujitsu and then focused on Shuai Chiao, I find throwing to be incredibly easy. It is far easier to drop somebody in a fight with a throw than it is to outstrike them. It also less risky from my POV. There are conditions on this statement, but for the most part, it holds true.

A 'resisting opponent' can actualy be easier to throw if you know how to use that resistance to your advantage, although if they are just fading away, yeah hit'em first to get thier attention redirected.

The problem most people have, is it seems easier to practice a lot of striking, and practicing striking is a lot easier on the ego. Stand-up grappling is a lot like other grappling. You can be dangerous as you get older, but a young punk with a new trick can be dangerous. It evolves, but the good thing is so do you.
My money is always on the grapplers. Always has been.

MP - Shuai chiao would be a good training tech for stand-up. I've used it pretty well against NHB buddies, although occasionally I get squeezed pretty bad. There are some great methods there, although I've seen similar ones in Sombo. But the Sombo guys usually don't try 'em from what I've seen.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by dwid
My major complaint with Shuai Chiao is that it tends to rely on throws to the exclusion of everything else (such as ground grappling or striking). The trouble with this is that most grapplers will tell you that against a resisting opponent, a throw is about the most technically difficult thing to pull off.


Throws are difficult to pull off against people who has grappling experience. Against someone who doesn't consistently train, they're relatively straightforward.

NOTE: what I have heard said (and noticed myself), is the major throws, say, seio nage or o goshi are pretty hard. However, something like o soto gari or a silat-style puter kepala or sapu is pretty easy. Sacrifice throws are often trivial against untrained people.



By practicing it almost exclusively, SC guys probably have an edge on pulling them off at full speed with resistance, but if they fail at the throw, there aren't a lot of other tools to fall back on.


I don't do shuai chiao, but I've read alot of material by a Baoding guy. His favorite technique appears to be the straight front kick.

IIRC, one of their signature techniques--cracking--is a setup for either an armbar or a takedown.



On the other hand, most Judo guys are more comfortable actually grappling, whether that be a standing lock or a takedown/submission kind of thing. It seems this sort of approach gives you a higher margin of error.

With the exception of their respective focus on newaza and striking, I don't think there's much of a difference in their efficacy.

Strengths of SC over judo:

o includes some harsher throws in the curriculum (personal favorite is the "outside" seoi nage)
o well-done and specific solo training regimens. John Wang's clips over at emptyflower.stanford.edu pretty much gave away the store on this one. Something he should be commended for BTW.

Strengths of judo over SC:

o inclusion of sacrifice throws. Yoko otoshi and tani otoshi are fantastic throws that come instinctively to many people.
o newaza

[dwid]

Okay, let me attempt to extricate my foot from my mouth.

I wasn't intending to diss either art, just giving some minor reservations of mine.

Personally, I value both arts tremendously. Shuai Chiao is one of the most enjoyable and rigorous workouts I've ever done, and I intend to do it again - I really need to get over my fear of being thrown, but the concussion thing was pretty bad.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by fragbot


Throws are difficult to pull off against people who has grappling experience. Against someone who doesn't consistently train, they're relatively straightforward.



Well yeah. It's pretty hard to punch a boxer in the nose too. For the record, pure BJJ guys are pretty easy to chuck around. Give them some solid wrassling or Judo and the picture changes a whole lot.

[yenhoi]

If your playing your game right, I dont see why 'getting' a throw on a resiting opponent would be any 'harder' then 'getting' a punch in or anything..

Ive done lots and lots and lots of foot sweeps and hip throws on resisting opponents, and a couple head-twisting throws (puter kapela..)

:eek:

[brassmonkey]

"I really need to get over my fear of being thrown, but the concussion thing was pretty bad."

A white belt Judokan I bet was pretty humbling experience. Maybe you can work on breakfalls from your teacher for a while then slowly work into harder and harder throws. It'd be a shame if you miss out on the chance to work out with some Judo guys/girls if you have a chance.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sho
I don't exactly study Shuai Jiao as a separate art, because some of it is already included in my school's curriculum.

Anyway. The major difference between Shuai Jiao and judo is that judo's main things are its gi throws, while Shuai Jiao uses the opponent's body for grabbing and throwing (thus 'wrestling'). Both arts have many joint locks.

Judo has throws that can be modified for no gi - tai otoshi is one of them.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by chen zhen
SJ does not have ground-grappling (nake-waza). Judo does throws designed for sport-practise, and SJ does throws designed to hurt people, like dropping the opp. on their head and spine..(this does not say that Judo throws are not dangerous!;))


the sport throws can be modified though...

[chen zhen]

the sport throws can be modified though...

Of course! anything can. Did'nt say they could'nt.:)

[neigung]

shuai chiao has strikes hidden inside the throwing/takedown movements. it's not an art without a striking aspect, or even an art with strikes lacking.
consistent drilling and training will show you a full aresenal of striking using hands, elbows, forearms, shoulders, chest, knees, hips and shins and feet.

[Stacey]

I was just going to mention how easy people are to throw, when they have just been smacked in the head.

My sweetest throws have been against strong, untrained resisting opponents.

[chen zhen]

But do they need to be thrown, when they have been smacked in the head..?
;)

[Stacey]

in a world of pillows....no. On a second story balcony...yes.

I'm all for throwing people. They are so much easier to kick. You can drop things on them, throw them into sharp objects.

Once your spinning, you toss them at the nastiest spot.

[chen zhen]

:) I mean, if you have already punched them out, do you need to throw them when they're unconscious??

[neigung]

it's the best way to end the fight!

[Shaolin-Do]

The stupid f*cker who popped my shoulder out of socket was a whitebelt in judo. Didnt actively train.... Useless *******.

Hey, wheres WD? A SC Post and no WD yet?
hmmm....
Appears many of the norms have dissappeared in the last week Ive been gone. Is still early tho...

[Shaolin-Do]

Ok, Ill kick myself for not reading the 2nd page before I spoke.
:)
So you a filthy southerner yet WD?

[fa_jing]

A little bit of fear is healthy, IMO. Especially considering that the risk is higher for concussion when you've already had one. I do think you could do some throwing work, but just remember that your partner, while he may be a nice guy, is not going to be as consistently aware of your safety as you are.

[SwaiingDragon]

If an art has takedowns and/or throws- it does not mean you have or know Shuai Chiao.

It is like saying that northern practioners know tae kwon do because they have a great deal of kicks in their forms.

Shuai Chiao is a complete art which includes- throws, kicks, strikes and joint locking.

(I have had the pleasure of getting pounded on by American, Eurpoean and Asian Judo practioners. I have a great deal of respect for that art, and would be as cautious of an accomplished Judo practioner as I would be of any accomplish martial artist.)