Why is 7* the most popular style of mantis?

[phantom]

If there is only one mantis school near you, chances are 7* is most likely the branch of mantis being taught there. There are also many well-renowned masters of this style, yet nowhere near as many in many other mantis styles. Why is this so? Thanks in advance.

[northernJump]

This is a complete guess but maybe its because a lot of the 7* we see in western countries came to us from the HK lineage and for a long time most overseas chinese originated from Hong Kong and southern China - simply because no one else was allowed to leave.
Were there other mantis styles in Hong Kong ?
actually now that I think about it - Taiwan has Taiji mantis so maybe my theory is hogwash.

[Mr.Binx]

My best guess as to why seven star is so common is that seven star tang lang may be one of the most published forms of tanglang available (most likely due to the work of Wong Hun Fun (http://www.authentickungfu.com/seven_star/sifu/whf.html) and his proceeding lineage). Wong Hun Fun (from what I understand) was very active in spreading knowledge through publication. Media has always had a strong pull with the academic world, so spread the word and you spread the art. The fact that many sifu in the past have not been willing to share their styles so openly with westerners may also have had a role in putting seven star at the fore front as far as tang lang is concerned with my hemisphere. That's my personal guesstimate at this juncture. Maybe someone who activley researched the issue may happen upon this thread and share their insights. :D

[RAYNYSC]

Here's my take on why 7* is the most popular stlye of Mantis.

Seven Star Mantis can basically be divided into Hong Kong Mantis & Mainland China Mantis. Now I think your question really pertains to the HK Mantis which is the more well known of the two branches. The reason for the popularity of HK Mantis can be attributed to several factors.

1- Lo Kwung Yuk brought 7 Star Mantis to HK.

2- Lo Kwung Yuk made many changes to 7 Star Mantis to make it more direct & applicable for fighting.

3- Wong Hun Fun wrote many books & articles on 7 Star Mantis System.

4- Lee Kam Wing wrote two books on the 7 Star Mantis System.

5- Many students of WHF, CCM & others were responsible for bringing the art to the west.

As far as 7 Star Mantis in general being more popular, I would have to say that ( The way I see it ) the Seven Star Mantis system is the most practical....

Peace:D

[Tainan Mantis]

RAYNYSC,
What changes did Luo Guangyu make to PM to make it "more direct and applicable to fighting?"

Also, don't take this the wrong way, but how can you come to this conclusion?

We all know he was a great fighter, but did he himself say this?

There are many different styles of PM.
Even within the same lineage the difference of knowledge and skill between shrfus is large.

I have gone to many different shrfu's of many different styles as has my shrfu Shr Zhengzhong and neither he nor I came to this conclusion.

I think you would have to go to many different PM schools and fight all the masters and top students.

Then, you would have to be able to beat them in order to determine that your style is best.

If this does indeed happen we can just close down this forum and all go and study with you.

[RAYNYSC]

Tainan,
What the problem is?:confused:
I think I made it very clear that what I said was my opinion.
Obviously you've taken it personally, please don't, if you can fight with your Mantis ( And I don't mean kickboxing ) then good for you. You would be one of the few who actually can.

IMHO I feel it is very obvious that HK Mantis is geared more for fighting then other branches, Compare the difference in the way the forms are played. The way Mainland Mantis practitioners flair their arms around you would think their clothes caught fire & they're trying to put it out. Their circles are too big & their stances are way too low. Honestly where is the practicality in all this?....
It looks pretty,but how effective is it really.

On the other hand, in HK Mantis the techniques are tighter, direct & more linear. Yes there are circles but they are much smaller & the stances are higher so mobility is much better. LKY made the style better because he was in HK. Look at any KF style in general that comes from HK or in Taiwan for that matter as opposed to the ones in Mainland China. HK styles are fighting styles, Mainland China styles all seem to have some sort of influence from Wu Shu, period. To tell me that I need to fight every Mantis practitioner there is to come, to this conclusion is ridiculous.

If this is how one decides then what happens when two classmates who train under the same Sifu fight each other? One of them has to win & one of them has to lose, right? Did it make the style less practical for the loser? What about the one who beat him with the same style? It was practical for him wasn't it? ( So for me to fight everyone wouldn't prove anything. You win some, you lose some. ) The point is LKY took away a lot of the extraneous stuff. I think that a student learning HK Mantis can learn to use the style a lot faster then a student learning the Mainland stuff.

Again this is my opinion ( I like & respect all the Mantis styles & Branches. ) Some are more practical, some are less practical. IMO, HK Mantis is in the more practical category.

What I don't understand is why did you decide to pick on what I said instead of just answering the thread's question. At least I have given reason on why I feel the way I do. If it bothers you that I have an opinion & I'm expressing it than you need to see a therapist cause I can't help you.Get over what I said & just state your opinion to the question.

As for your last statement that you made, sorry, I'm not taking any students.;)


Peace:D

[-N-]

RAYNYSC,

What branch of HK mantis are you from? Just curious.

In HK seven star, our applications are smaller than in our formplay. Mainland seven star does not necessarily fight with the same big motions as in their forms?

Also, I am told that mainland seven star is fast even with bigger frame.

regards,
N.

[MantisifuFW]

Hong Kong Tanglang has enjoyed much popularity in the West. As RAYNYSC has stated, there has been much written by HK Tanglang practitioners along with printed and video material by both CCM and WHF practitioners. Of singular note has been Lee Kam Wing's organization's effort to get Tanglang out to people across the world. As all of these practitioners were 7*, it has resulted in our branch having ascendency worldwide in the public sphere.

This having been said, one cannot discount the efforts of Chiu Chuk Kite. He has taught hundreds if not thousands of students. Their organization, though not as large in the U.S. as 7* is actually quite widespread world wide. Taiji Tanglang exists in Europe, Southeast Asia, South America, Canada and the U.S. We are just beginning to research the extent of their influence and numbers. They are not as public as 7*, it remains to be seen if they are as numerous.

There is a movement today that is not being acknowledged that nonetheless cannot be denied. Zhong Lian Bao of Yantai, PRC has developed an organization that is international in scope. His disciples are largely the most senior CCM Tanglang practitioners in each respective country he has visited. They have respectfully left the HK 7* line to join and become disciples of mainland Tanglang lines of 7*. Often they have resigned positions of great honor, obviously being very knowledgable of the techniques offered by their line, they nonetheless found something in the mainland version of their art that they found so compelling that they made what had to be difficult choices.

I, like RAYNYSC, am convinced of my HK lineage's effectiveness and validity. I have trained on the mainland, been very impressed with practitioners I found there and their art but remain with the art as taught me by my sifu, Brendan Lai. But the momentum of the international Tanglang community seems to be with the mainland. Their growth has been rapid, substantive and significant.

I believe that with the arrivial of such practitioners as Ilya Profatilov, there is about to be more changes in the offing as Meihua comes into its own in the West.

I welcome the coming of Mainland 7*, Taiwan 7*, Taiji Tanglang and Meihua Tanglang. We can all only grow stronger from it and those who cannot survive perhaps should not have been here.

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

Originally posted by RAYNYSC
...
2- Lo Kwung Yuk made many changes to 7 Star Mantis to make it more direct & applicable for fighting.
...
Peace:D

RAYNYSC this is a very interesting point. Can you direct me to any info that I can learn more of this ? I am very interested in learning what changes have been made, where, when, etc.

thx,
UM.

[loki]

Ursa,

Here are a couple of sources you can look into.

http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/frame.htm

http://www.geocities.com/sifu_carl/history.html

http://www.mantisboxing.com/history.shtml


Sifu Cottrell, do you think that one of the reasons for some of these senior HK practitioners to jump ship could have anything to do with them perhaps thinking that by studying 7 star mantis from mainland China Sifu they are somehow closer to the original ? And by so doing they may feel that this puts them in a higher status ? Just a thought. I don't think that they are leaving in droves. It's just a deluded few with big egos. To each his own I guess.

[MantisifuFW]

loki,

I would not presume to know why anyone changes their affiliation after years and great acheivement in their style of Tanglang. Though each were CCM HK Tanglang I believe that their reasons were individual.

I have spoken to some of these sifu and have found them to be reasonable people, not egotistical or given to such behavior. They were willing to share information on their chosen style without reservation. I did not feel that I have the standing to ask such personal questions.

What it does indicate that those who have, in the past, to be dismissive of mainland Tanglang by looking at a video of a form and pronouncing them "Just more modern Wushu!" are definately WRONG. (I am certain you know of the patented "one line putdown" engaged in by some martial artists. This is just the most recent version).

In truth, the movement towards the mainland is strong and more former HK practitioners are turning to them every day. Perhaps one day one of these will go public with what they found that made the difference but I doubt it. They are not going to insult their former sifu. They have simply chosen another way, one that to them is better.

It is something for HK practitioners to consider, regardless. I have and remain strongly WHF Tanglang and will always be. However my experience in the art is not the same as others, I guess.

Sorry I could not provide more information outside presenting the situation as it stands. Perhaps others who know more than I will post.

Steve Cottrell

[Tainan Mantis]

RAYNYSC,
Good rebuttal to my post(but leave my therapist out of this).
It sounds like you have seen Mainland PM that looks like wushu.
I agree with you on those points.

There is also Mainland PM that has retained its traditional approach.
Also, the PM in Taiwan has not changed much since it left China.
It does not resemble the wushu in China.
Ok, I guess you know all that already.

All your other points on why 7* is most popular I agree with.
It is also popular in Taiwan with many of the same forms in HK and mainland 7*.

About different schools of PM being more or less for fighting.
Ok, you don't have to go and fight everyone.
Maybe just take the chance to see how they train fighting.

[B.Tunks]

RAYNYSC,

Well first of all I dont know what /mainland' Tanglang you have seen but i'm guessing it is modern competitive Tanglang which is not even Tanglang only a very distant derivitive, designed entirely for sport.
If you have seen any real Tanglang from the mainland that is performed in the manor you describe, then the person doing it is a total clown.

You say:

IMHO I feel it is very obvious that HK Mantis is geared more for fighting then other branches, Compare the difference in the way the forms are played. The way Mainland Mantis practitioners flair their arms around you would think their clothes caught fire & they're trying to put it out. Their circles are too big & their stances are way too low. Honestly where is the practicality in all this?....
It looks pretty,but how effective is it really.

I wont even go into stance depth, no need. As far as flairing the arms around as if my clothes are on fire, you will certainly see plenty of that from me, though it is far from pretty. The difference is, I put people in hospital with my 'mainland mantis'.
What am getting wrong? Is there somehow I can adjust my training to make it more authentic mainland?

b.t

[ursa major]

Loki - excellent info on those links thx !

RAYNYSC - I have to admit I found your depiction of "practitioners flair their arms around you would think their clothes caught fire & they're trying to put it out." to be quite hilarious -- if not potentially inflammatory to a significant number of CMA people ! With that in mind I muted my laughter and corrected myself.

I've seen my share of Wu Shu and Wu Shu Tournaments, what with people running around and jumping about. The last Wu Shu demo form I saw they actually did one of those reach behind and pull your rear leg straight up moves -- it looked exactly like the move that competition ice skaters do, you know when they spin around at the same time ? Very impressive athletics especially on ice ! But what earthly good is it in Martial Arts ? Have to wonder if it is still Martial Arts ? The last demos I witnessed were purportedly 'Mainland China Wu Shu' I pretty much shook my head and admitted to myself that I did not understand the practical or combat side of what they were doing.

Sifu Tunks I appreciate your defense of Mainland PM and respect you as a dedicated practitioner. I also believe that any true PM is going to be good fighting material. I think a problem we deal with in North America is that for many of us our view of Wu Shu and/or Mainland KF is limited to that which is exported to us and that stuff is often commercialized. I for instance don't have a clue about Mainland PM vs. HK PM other than what I have read which tells me it is different. I have no insight into the difference but am interested in learning and would appreciate if you could point me to information about the Mainland Tang Lang that you practice.

Regards,
UM.

[mantis108]

First off, I would like to thank Sifu Cottrell in pointing out that GM Chiu was one of the pioneers of proliferation of Praying Mantis Kung Fu to the world. It is hard to ignore that fact that both GM LGY and GM CCK were affiliated with the Jing Wu association. Networking and organization at a national level and then later on in international theatre. Note that many renowned styles (ie. Eagle Claw, Pague, etc...) today were and still are afiliated with Jing Wu.

Of course, both GMs worked very hard post Jing Wu as well. Personally, in the case of TJPM, I feel that it came a long way from one on one transmission to become group oriented beginning with GM Liang XueXiang (CE 1810 - ?).

Concerning the effectiveness of the Mainland and HK branches, regarless of styles, I don't think it is fair to measure by how forms are performed. Form performance is only a tool or rather a means to an end. To just a system or a Kung Fu stylist solely base on form performance is really like judging a book by its cover or touching an elephane trunk and claiming it to be the whole elephane. Different communities hold different aesthetic values. In the case of Mainland, SPEED with clarity is important while CLARITY with speed is more of a concern to HK eyes. It is where the pirority and emphasis are set. It would also seem that Northern folks recognize speed as a form of power while southerners prefer strength based power. This a relativity of fast and slow. I believe a better way to gauge really is how the applications works. I think of modern Wushu as pretty useless because of the majority of the practitioners don't understand the apps or don't even realize there are apps involve in what they do. Also most don't have a clue on where the cohersion of their fundamental training and their forms are. It is painful to see people wasting their time, effort and talents on useless enterprise. :(

Anyway that's my take.

Mantis108

[Stacey]

same reason TKD is...its **** easy.

Just talkin jive, My understanding is that unlive village mantis, 7 star hit the cities first and exploded. Little mantids on hong kong buildings pumping their egg cases to exhaustian.

Plus mantis mops up wing chun, ego, popular in HK

[loki]

BT ,

You just proved that Hong Kong mantis is better! Yours puts people in hospitals, mine puts people 6 feet under. :D ...Just kidding. It's good to know there are tong long players out there that really like to fight. That's good! You would have loved growing up in Brooklyn and you would definitely get along real well with my Sifu.

Anyway, I can't say that I have had the privilidge of seeing any real traditional 7 star mantis from the mainland on film or otherwise. I have a ton of stuff on film but everything I have seen is in my opinion weak stuff. The applications I have seen are very dissapointing. IMO, they show a lack of real life combat/fighting experience. I would love to see some of the 'real' stuff one of these days.

It seems you may have a thing or two to say about "the depth of stances" but did not care to expound on it. If you don't mind, I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about this. Do you have any thoughts as to the pros and cons of the differences in such things such as the tong long bow sim (mantis catches cicada)? For instance HK mantis players are higher in their tiger riding stances than mainland players. I have seen a photo of you doing this move so I know that your stances are deeper and lower. So again, your thoughts on this.

Thank you.

[ninjaboy]

i've got some questions regarding some material in this thread...

1. Re: LGY

Does anyone know where LGY picked up the Meihua and Guangban that he added to his syllabus if he didn't receive it from Fan Xu Dong??

2. Re: the 'REAL' stuff...

I recently purchased a video at a tournament in Cleveland called "2002 Peng Lai City International Praying Mantis Competition - All Forms, Weapons And Sparring"

Does anyone here know if this tape would represent a typical cross-section of mainland PM or if this is (pardon me and sorry for not knowing the difference) 'just more wushu'??

I was a little disappointed in the "sparring" on the tape. I was hoping for some exposure to this mainland 'freefighting/sanda' stuff i hear about but it was just a whole bunch of choreographed 2-man sets...not that there's anything wrong with that...it just isn't fighting. Having said that does anyone have any vids or links they could recommend to see some full-on scrapping, direct from the mainland?

3. Re: stance depth

I tried starting a thread on this topic on several forums but got very little response from those who I thought would comment most... ie. the people who do it. My question wasn't so much to do with the depth of the stance but of the position of the structure itself. Not to use Sifu Tunks as an example of any kind without his consent but it was actually his photo (on his very excellent website) that got me wondering (please see photo attached).

The question: The knee of the support leg points in a DISTINCTLY different direction than the foot and I am curious as to the rational behind it, as i see it frequently, yet don't know why. Will someone please shed light on this for me? It seems very common in what I would call 'contemporary' CMA, not just PM. Hopefully my question isn't a one-way ticket into an Australian hospital should I ever meet with you Sifu Tunks!!! I mean no disrespect.

Sincerely,
Neil

[B.Tunks]

Hi all,

This does need some discussion. I have no time right now but can at least address the pic right for Neil (nice one you b@stard, ha ha). The photo is taken as I pivot ninety degrees left with Pu Chan. The posture actually ends with the front foot drawn a little closer, the knee of that leg raised higher, the rear knee and the rear foot/toes turning in further with the hooks withdrawing further, elbows dropping. This is almost the end of the posture but not totally. Yes the knee is not in total line with the foot but not in the manor of modern wushu (their method is total twisting to allow sitting entirely on the joint). We also have an empty stance where the foot and knee are virtually in line and this is not it. We spoke on here a while ago about appropriate degree of torsion for such stances and I assure you this is intentional for what I am executing. I know some of you will say this looks modern, but go study some modern and get back to me on this. I am aware that H.K do not push on the knee as much but stance depth has all but been discounted in the southern evolution of Tanglang, though you can see similar in Taiwan. This adjustment of the knee/foot position is required to facilitate the push from the ball of the supporting foot in the charge forward out of this posture. furthermore, empty stance/step is a transitory posture unless it terminates, in which case it actually hides a snap kick.
I will address this topic in more detail as soon as I get a moment.
b.t

[-N-]

Originally posted by B.Tunks
This adjustment of the knee/foot position is required to facilitate the push from the ball of the supporting foot in the charge forward out of this posture.

Nice power generation there :) Very detailed. I'm impressed.

N.

[RAYNYSC]

Tunks,
If what I said does not apply to you then you shouldn't get upset. There's no reason to start thumping your chest. If you're trying to sound intimidating by saying you put people in the hospitals you failed miserably.

Like I said before if you can fight with your mantis ( And I don't mean kickboxing ) then good for you. You would be one of the few who actually can.

Peace:D

[B.Tunks]

Bang Bang! you got me...

[ninjaboy]

can we please get back to my questions instead of public personality clashes?

[B.Tunks]

Ninjaboy

O.K, no clashing on my behalf. I'm out.

I was going to add that in the majority of empty stances the back foot is much closer to knee alignment as they are usually coming back from a retreating or falling step or raising up from something like Yuhuan Bu to execute a hand technique that requires a sudden pulling back of the body, followed by shooting forward back into something like Yuhuan Bu, Ma Bu, Gong Bu or what have you, with a technique that requires forward body momentum. I hope that makes sense.
b.t

[ninjaboy]

b.t.

yes it does, thanks for finishing that thought for me...

any thoughts on the other questions i had regarding the peng lai tournament tape etc...?

neil