Grand Unification Theory

[reneritchie]

As I was redoing the WCK Archives for the server transfer, I remembered the original reason I started them - to see if all the different stories, when taken as complementory rather than contradictory, could paint a more complete picture. In that spirit, I present the grand unification theory of WCK origins, melding the VTM with Hendrik and with my views, with a little of what Tom didn't say.

In Fujian province, whether you believe in the Southern Shaolin Weng Chun Diem, or in Weng Chun country, the original system (either Shaolin Lohan imported from Henan or a native Fujian system) was developed by either Ming generals and monks, or civil martial master(s)/generations. This was exported by Jee Shim or someone now referred to as Jee Shim to Guangdong and ended up on the Red Junks and eventually became known as Weng Chun Kuen after the hall or county, the system taught by Dai Fa Min Kam to Tang, Dong, Lo, etc. and their descendants who passed on to Andreas Hoffmann.

The original art continued to develop in Fujian and the next import, half way between Weng Chun Kuen and what would become known as Wing Chun Kuen, was also exported to Guangdong's Red Junks and accredited either properly or honorifically to Cheung Ng. Fa Min Biu/Hung Gam Biu passed this art down and it spread to Guangzhou and the New Territories where Garette Gee sifu learned it from Wong Ming and Yip Man learned some of the technical aspects from a man he visited 6 times a year who he nicknamed Leung Bik and passed it on to William Cheung who he thought it would suit better.

The other opera performers continued to refine the art and blended it with the Sup Yee Jong engine of Sichuan Emei's Golden Summit Temple (which may have come from Mui Shun or someone recorded with that name, and or Yim Wing Chun/Leung Bok-Cho or people recorded with those names), developing what would become known as Wing Chun Kuen and Wong Wah-Bo passed it down to Leung Jan and Fok Bo-Chuen from whom the Koolo, Yip Man, Sum Nung, and other lineages descend, and most of us in turn, and Yik Kam, who even more closely favored the Sup Yee Jong, passed it on to the Cho family, from whom Cho Hung-Choi learned from both brothers and passed it on to Hendrik.

Thus each story fills in the gaps and fleshes out the others ones, makes sense from senselessness, and respects (and leaves room for) all the traditions.

Whabam.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Rene,
Thanks for all the hard work and time you put in to that.... but you could have just asked to use my time machine. LOL :D

[WCis4me]

Hi Rene,

Grand Unification Theory
Isn't that exactly what we have not been saying all along? Where the heck have you been? ;)
My possession of the secret scrolls theory had you scared didn't it? You had to finally give up the secrets of the scroll and now we finally know who didn't return Phil's copy. :p
Whew, now that we have 400 years of history all wrapped up, back to bong sao vs a straight punch.

Vicky
:D

[Phil Redmond]

Rene Ritchie. Diplomatic Corps candidate......hmmmm....grin.
PRedmond

[Phenix]

Rene,


Hahahhaa. Sorry, I cannot agree about the Shaolin and Weng Chun and Leung Bik ..... :D

For discussion sake not about which lineage is better or oldest.....


1, Center line theory is core of FUjian White Crane.

2, the Sun post is a Trade mark of Fujian White Crane.


today's WCK based very very heavily into these two core.

So where are these cores from? MIng? Shao LIn? Cheong Ng?
Until Solid evidents shows the Ming , Shao LIn, Cheong Ng....
MIng, Shao Lin, Cheong Ng .. all are just good speculation.


3, Weng Chun Dien cannot equal to Weng Chun county.
Weng Chun Dien is a legend Weng Chun county is fact.
Weng Chun Dien is based on the legend of Hu Wui-Chien.
Weng Chun county and Fang's white crane is recorded in Qing history.

Analogy:
MIT can be Make IN Taiwan or Massatusate Institute Technology.
Two very different things.



4, it is the factual evidents which will speak for itself. I politely ask them to show factual evidents if they cannot show factual evidents. Then, it has to classified and different class.
One can write articles, trying to prove that south Shao LIn exist....
But even south shao lin exist or Weng Chun Dien exist. That still doesn't said they related to Wing Chun Kuen. We need to look into Kuen Kuit to cross exam this. no discount. :D






"The original art continued to develop in Fujian and the next import, half way between Weng Chun Kuen and what would become known as Wing Chun Kuen, was also exported to Guangdong's Red Junks and accredited either properly or honorifically to Cheung Ng. Fa Min Biu/Hung Gam Biu passed this art down and it spread to Guangzhou ....."

Where is their SLT come from? can that be answer with evidents?


Sorry Rene, I can't comprimise factual and legend. and Show me and evident that support


IF it is about scientific...... then there is only one bar. that is show factual evidents. without it it is not even a hypothesis. Not to mention a theory.

I might sound cruel. but then, what is the point if one makes a theory just to make everyone happy? But not to show the factual evidents derived one?


politically, i am dead wrong. but historian don't even give face to emperor:D

[PaulH]

Hi Rene,

While I marvel at your infinite labours to come up with the one theory that binds or rules all WC rings of history, personally I find this attachment to WC history is a little bit too morbid and grotesque. "When from a long-distant past nothing subsists, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered, still, alone, more fragile, but with more vitality, more unsubtantial, more persistent, more faithful, the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls, ready to remind us, waiting and hoping for their moment, amid the ruins of all the rest; and bear unfaltering, in the tiny and almost impalpable drop of their essence, the vast structure of recollection.- Remembrance of Things Past (Marcel Proust)"

"We do not succeed in changing things according to our desires, but gradually our desire changes. The situation that we hoped to change because it was intolerable becomes unimportant. We have not managed to surmount the obstacle, as we were absolutely determined to do, but life has taken us round it, led us past it, and then if we turn round to gaze at the remote past, we can barely catch sight of it, so imperceptible has it become. - Marcel Proust "

Perhaps, one of these days you and other like-minded people will appreciate this better.

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hendrik,

Please have a look at this thread and let me know what you think:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=23040

[Phenix]

Rene,

Thanks.

You know, IMHO, I have not yet see any hard evident that Yijingjing can link to SLT. Even by the theory of Yijingjing, it is not likely that it related to SLT. Again different DNA and practicing structure.


One might say Yijingjing has twist..... but I don't buy that. YiCingCing is body and mind or "Yoga" type exercise for health primary. My view is chinese always trying to link oneself to the famous and sometimes pulling the reverse gear big time. IN the WCK case alots of people have not much literate. So, they make mistakes they makes.


IMHO, the author doesn't have a broad view and indepth study of other chinese martial art. He is just very generally qouting Shao LIn and Taiji... Where is the White Crane which we all know with factual evident that related.

I can open up another can of worm from ming dynasty. beside, emei, White crane which might influencing the figthing application of WCK. But I won't,

I have wait and wait to see what all researcher willl say. but up to now, seems to say Shao Lin Shao Lin..... hakka... so if hakka.. southern mantis... how come thier head stuck out but wck not? how come in yijingjing it starts with lung medirien but SLT starts with Wood then lung..

one can read all the books. one can go to china for side seeing for 1000x trip or live there.... but if one's heart is not purely seeking.... one will not see the obvious but leading by traditional myth.

HInt. read the General Qiqikuang's book from Ming Dynasty. It doesn't said Shao Lin boxing..... so what influence WCK from Ming?


We all can go to shao lin , take a picture with the abbort there. take a picture posting... but imho, i like to go further then that.

start from one's body, understand the Kung Fa and its influence on one's body in detail. ...

it is like i can go to standford university, take a picture with the dean of physics.... sit in the class room.... but that doesn't proof my physics class is rooted from standford.

[Phil Redmond]

Hendrick wrote:
>>I have wait and wait and all researcher seems to say Shao Lin Shao Lin..... hakka... so if hakka.. southern mantis... how come thier head stuck out but wck not? how come in yijingjing it starts with lung medirien but SLT starts with Wood?<<

Can you explain how Nam ton long begins with Metal,(Lung/Colon), and SLT begins with the Liver/Gall Bladder (Wood)?

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Phil!


I think Hendrik was referring to the Head position of South Mantis as it is indeed different from WCK. WCK head is more similar to Zhuang posture where as South Mantis is indeed more similar to the so-called South Shaolin body structure.

The Yi Jin Jing/SLT was what he was talking about with the meridian stuff. That, I know nothing about, so its time for Hendrik to chime in!


See ya,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hendrick wrote:
>>I have wait and wait and all researcher seems to say Shao Lin Shao Lin..... hakka... so if hakka.. southern mantis... how come thier head stuck out but wck not? how come in yijingjing it starts with lung medirien but SLT starts with Wood?<<

Can you explain how Nam ton long begins with Metal,(Lung/Colon), and SLT begins with the Liver/Gall Bladder (Wood)?


Jim you are right about the Head.


As for Lung or liver, some start the moving meditation or moving Kung with activation of Lung medirian. Some start the moving meditation or moving Kung with activation of Liver medirian.

When starting with Lung Medirian one focus direct to breathing function......when starting with Liver medirian one focus on relaxing the body.....
even though all internal art has to be relax, breath...... there are different signature.

Thus, I never belive people's claim on Cheong Ng, Saam Bai Fut, or Sap Yat Sau... is equal to Yik Kam's SLT (since cannot spoken for other lineage). There are lots of signatures in the DNA. One by one one can examine them. IMHO


So is SLT similar with YJJ? start with focusing the body to do breath work... or it is about relaxing the body so it flows like water or snake or harmony tide of ocean surf ? you decision.

[[Censored]]

Rene Ritchie. Diplomatic Corps candidate......hmmmm....grin.

...or is he the Neville Chamberlain of Wing Chun, working so hard to appease the purveyors of unsubstantiated "history"? :p

Thus each story fills in the gaps and fleshes out the others ones, makes sense from senselessness, and respects (and leaves room for) all the traditions.

I see this story a little differently ;) (http://www.aboyd.com/products/polarlights/pl4000_full.jpg)

[kj]

Originally posted by [Censored]
I see this story a little differently ;) (http://www.aboyd.com/products/polarlights/pl4000_full.jpg)

LOL, same here. I assUmed it was offered tongue in cheek.

Regards,
- kj

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by kj


LOL, same here. I assUmed it was offered tongue in cheek.

Regards,
- kj
I did too, hence my post. However, I thought maybe I was just totally daft as there was such a flurry about it after. Glad to know I am not the only one who thought so. WHEW. :D

Vicky

[yuanfen]

Commend Rene for trying.

He has united beirenewingchunkuen
with nanrenewingchunkuen !

[anerlich]

A modernist fallacy that us self-respecting post-modernists eschew, though agreeing it is one POV though only part of the whole shebang.

Marcel Proust was IMO a punk. Remembrance of Things Past was almost as boring as Foucault's Pendulum, by Umberto Eco.

[PaulH]

Interestingly enough, I sense a great disturbance in the Force. The fragmented pieces are moving rapidly toward greater oneness virtually in almost all areas of any post modernist's life, i.e., globalism, internet connectivity, cross martial arts training, the search for intelligent lives and of course the Grand Unification theory in Science and soon the WC version of it. Maybe this is just a trendy thing. Get with the program, Anerlich! You're too much of a rebel. Join them and together you can rebuild the WC empire. You know, I too often fell asleep reading halfway through MP's punky novels.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Sure- in the movement towards "unification" thousands are dying
in different parts of the world.(Just commenting on parts of Paul H's last post. No startup of a political debate intended)

[PaulH]

In such grand scale of organized humanity and collective efforts toward one vision, some pieces just have to be sacrificed if they stand in the way. Isn't this what revolution all about?

"...Empty chairs at empty tables. Now my friends are dead and gone. Here they talked of revolution. Here it was they lit the flame. Here they sang about tomorrow. And tomorrow never came...Oh my friends, my friends, don't ask me. What your sacrifice was for. Empty chairs at empty tables. Where my friends will sing no more. - Les Miserables"

Regards,

[Phil Redmond]

Jim Wrote"
Hey Phil!
>>I think Hendrik was referring to the Head position of South Mantis as it is indeed different from WCK. WCK head is more similar to Zhuang posture where as South Mantis is indeed more similar to the so-called South Shaolin body structure.<<

Hi Jim, I'm familiar with Juk Lum Tong Long,(Bamboo Forest Mantis), from my Hung Mun days.

Hendrick wrote:
>>Jim you are right about the head
As for Lung or liver, some start the moving meditation or moving Kung with activation of Lung medirian.<<

Can you elaborate how metal and wood are activated?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Jim Wrote"

Can you elaborate how metal and wood are activated?


One has to study the meridians, the proper way of natural breathing, experiencing in relaxation and standing naturally before this can be done.



Not hard but it cannot be Hung Gar type of practicing method. That is certain.

[Phil Redmond]

One has to study the meridians, the proper way of natural breathing, experiencing in relaxation and standing naturally before this can be done.
Hi Hendrick, no problem. You can explain it to me as I studied Acupuncture and TCM formally for 2 years. It's only a short time of course but I'm studying TCM amd Meridian Therapy now and would like to read your take on this subject.
I would particularly like to know what physical movements would activate the (Wood), Liver/Gall Bladder, and the (Metal), Lung/Lg. Intestine meridians, along with how the Ching Chi
(Chi/energy circulating in the meridians ) is activated internally.
I will be taking a test soon so I need all the information I can get a hold of. Thank you in advance.
Phil

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond


I would particularly like to know what physical movements would activate the (Wood), Liver/Gall Bladder, and the (Metal), Lung/Lg. Intestine meridians, along with how the Ching Chi

Phil


1, how is Mai flow link to breathing and motion?
2, where is the source of the meridian.....

Knowing this will know the answer.

[anerlich]

One has to study the meridians, the proper way of natural breathing, experiencing in relaxation and standing naturally before this can be done.

I find it annoying that some on this board (not you, Phil) think that they alone have access to and experience with the knowledge alluded to above. Since they are our birthright and not something you have to add from outside, the intellectual snobbery here is entirely unjustified.

Certain people need to stop being so patronising and making or claims or implying knowledge which they then will not or cannot back up.

In five years of Xingyi/Bagua, which included a diploma course on TCM and acupressure massage, I was taught a number of "Taoist Yoga" exercises, meant to activate the specific meridians discussed. I've also conducted my own research into breathing and postural alignment, and believe my fundamental sources are at least as good as any others on this thread have proselytized. So I'm as qualified as any other poster to comment.

The "taoist yoga" exercises I practiced were as follows, from a neutral posture, breathing "naturally":

Metal: turning the head to look over the shoulder as one exhales

Water: bend over, with the thumb end of loosely clenched fists rub circles around the kidneys, up the spine, down the outside.

Water: step back into horse and practice drawing an imaginary bow while inhaling.

Fire: Horse stance, circle to one side bend at the waist up to the other side and return, inhaling at the top, exhaling at the bottom, fairly quickly.

Earth: pressing one palm to the floor at one side, the other to the ceiling while exhaling. we used to do this while walking around the gym after heavy oxygen-debt-inducing exercise.

Also, the five basic Xingyi postures are meant to directly stimulate the principal TCM organs and meridians, the movements stimulating the requisite spinal nerves to stimulate the organs (how this works anatomically excapes me, but thats what I was told).

Hope this is of value or interest to you. Personally, I'm a TCM skeptic, especially as regards WC having any foundation thereon.

Someone may take issue with it, but I'd prefer to be proved wrong than make enigmatic statements that I can't back up.

[Phil Redmond]

That's what I was looking for.
A professor once told me that you can convey any concept, or complicated material to a layperson if you yourself fully comprehend the material. When someone says, "you won't understand", a red flag goes up.
Phil

[anerlich]

Phil,

Exactly. I regret to say that the attitude of secrecy and superiority that permeates so many supposed disciples of Eastern Philosophy has poisoned the subject for me forever. It's one thing to make a STUDENT think for himself, another to hint at secrets for the purposes of ego.

No DECENT instructor has EVER told me that, "when you get to level X, then you'll understand," though a couple of poor instructors have. The level thing only IMO applies to problem-solving computer games.

On reflection, I think the Metal exercise may have involved an INHALATION on turning the head rather than an exhalation. But then that would violate the principles of some of the (non-TCM) treatises on breathing that I subscribe to.

But then, and I may not get the quote exactly right, "a false consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

I no longer practice these exercises, as I've found ones I find more efective and less encumbered with pseudo-mystical claptrap and hype.

[Phenix]

The world is strange.

Now a day, Everyone seems to have TCM certificate or qualification. BUt, seems like
Pointing at a direction is not good enough?

How is turning head and exhale got to do with Lung medirian?
Lung medirian is Ying or Yang Medirian ?
How is the Lung medirian travel while Breathing?


Who will share when questioning with poor skeptic attitude and personal attack? Who owe others an answer? NONE.

It is easy to blame others. Why not meditate on what one doesn't know or what background one needs to study?
IMHO.

[anerlich]

Hendrik/Phenix/HSanto,

that's good advice. Maybe you should consider taking it. Meditate more and make fewer content free posts.

Phil wasn't attacking you or being a skeptic, I was.

You have no reason not to share with him other than - maybe you have nothing to share. If you want to keep me out of it (please DO!), send him a private message.

I don't NEED anything that you have. And I doubt anyone else does either.


The world is strange.

With you in it, certainly.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by anerlich
Hendrik/Phenix/HSanto,

that's good advice. Maybe you should consider taking it. Meditate more and make fewer content free posts.

Phil wasn't attacking you or being a skeptic, I was.

I don't NEED anything that you have. And I doubt anyone else does either.



With you in it, certainly.



Anerlich,

Since I am not perfect I always Meditate.

Sure with me in it world is strange.
Because I discuss about facts.
It is a public forum, your choice to delete my post. As for others' that is thier decision. All is fine with me.

Purely technical, nothing personal.

[yenhoi]

How is turning head and exhale got to do with Lung medirian?
Lung medirian is Ying or Yang Medirian ?
How is the Lung medirian travel while Breathing?


and, what "I no longer practice these exercises, as I've found ones I find more efective" are these?

Just wondering, this thread was getting juicy.

;)

[John Weiland]

Hi Anerlich,


Originally posted by anerlich
Hendrik/Phenix/HSanto,

that's good advice. Maybe you should consider taking it. Meditate more and make fewer content free posts.

Phil wasn't attacking you or being a skeptic, I was.

You have no reason not to share with him other than - maybe you have nothing to share. If you want to keep me out of it (please DO!), send him a private message.

I don't NEED anything that you have. And I doubt anyone else does either.

With you in it, certainly.
Given that English is probably Hendrik's fourth or fifth language, online misunderstandings are natural, but from my personal experience, he is very open and sharing about all his knowledge, whether Chan, meditation, Wing Chun, or history.

I had the fortune of meeting and spending the better part of a couple of days with Hendrik April 26 and 27, back when I organized an all-comers welcome get-together in San Jose. His total openess in sharing his sets, his philosophy and insights therein, and his good humor force me to recommend him to you as good source of information on his many fields of study. He freely admits his weaknesses and where his "proofs" may be lacking.

He met Ken Chung at the luncheon prior to the Wing Chun get-together and Ken was very favorably inclined toward Hendrik and told me he believes Hendrik's take on Cho family Wing Chun history, although we do our Wing Chun very differently. This is noteworthy coming from someone (Ken) with a firsthand knowledge and acquaintance of many (perhaps, all) of the top folks in Wing Chun (as well as a number who don't qualify for that description). :D

Hendrik's been misinterpreted and attacked quite often on this forum, and from my POV, unfairly. It's not necessary for you to have my admiration for him, but you should know that there is a there there. :D

When Hendrik talks about qigung or other subjects, I listen. :)

Regards,

[yylee]

Originally posted by anerlich


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The world is strange.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


With you (Hendrik) in it, certainly.

Then the two of you together makes a perfect Yin/Yang! :D

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by yylee


Then the two of you together makes a perfect Yin/Yang! :D
Which one is Yin and which Yang? :D Never mind. I don't want to know. :D

[Phenix]

Hi Guys,

Honestly, I think I need to improve my communication in writing. Honest. It is difficult.

If Phil is in front of me. it will take only about 10 mins to show him what I mean because I can check him on spot.

In writing, it is difficult and tedious and can be very misleading.

Say, first understand the relationship about the Ying and Yang medirian and breathing. then,
understand how the Lung source from the tump to ...
then, how to link the Lung and arm, fingers, and chest..... with the praying hand motion....

Before I know I got unpatient about writing. If it is 10 years ago or 3 years ago I might have patient to write. Now is too old? aging?


I try to explain metal hand with Brian with email. and after a few emails I give up. Not that I don't want to say anything but it is difficult to describe 3D with writing words. I am not a writing person but a grafic type.


Certainly, I might have too high an expectation when I point out about medirian and TCM. There is no secret but everything build up from solid basic. Everyone can know it if the fundation is solid.

Ok for Anerich to get annoying. I also hope it is easy to communicate. But, in my experience, patient is the first ingradient for "seeing" new diamention. who is perfect? I am not.

[WCis4me]

Hi John,
John Wrote:

although we do our Wing Chun very differently
So there other WC groups out there, whose WC is different from others? Not just that but people are convinced of their credibility after a luncheon and 2 day get together?
I certainly don't know enough about Hendrick or his family's history to say that it isn't credible and this post really isn't about that.
I find it interesting that the words 'very differently' were used in comparison of 2 WC families yet there is all this banter about how TWC can't be from WWB,LB, LJ, YM etc as it isn't like everyone elses WC, and that ALLLLLLLL the other WC are VERY similar.

I have been hearing that post after post on various threads and now, out of the blue, we find out that one WC is VERY DIFFERENT than another, and neither was TWC.

As far as the rest (re: TCM and various types of Chi and meridian therapy) I am not qualified to answer, but in my ignorance I have also found some of Hendrick's posts to be both talking in parables/circles (not direct in answering questions, instead choosing to answer questions with more questions) and on the arrogant side. When someone asks a clarification question (when that someone has knowledge of the things you are discussing and you know that all too well) and you answer with a comment like 'you first have to understand the basics' it is disrespectful IMO. Why not just answer. When you don't It gives the appearance of someone with a huge ego just playing games with others because they think they are better or too good for the others. IMO. I am not saying or implying that is Hendrick's intent, I am just saying it has appeared that way to me at times. From what you said in your post it sounds like it has to many others as well. That is a shame if he really does have that much to share and is willing to do so. Perhaps he should give some consideration to his approach if so many are getting that impression, or perhaps if language is the difficulty, as you suggested, speak Spanish or Cantonese if that is easier as there are at least a couple of translators of both on here. In fact one of the people hendrick appeared condescending with speaks SEVERAL languages (along with dialects) quite fluently or very near fluently, along with the several you mention Hendrick speaks, I am sure they could come to better communication terms.
That is of course if it is only about language.

Regards,
Vicky

[Phenix]

"When someone asks a clarification question (when that someone has knowledge of the things you are discussing and you know that all too well) and you answer with a comment like 'you first have to understand the basics' it is disrespectful IMO. Why not just answer. "

IMHO.

It is obvious for some to be able to feel which medirian is activating with any hand techincs disregard of style. be it taiji or....

Now, if one don't have the experience and knowledge even if one claim to have about medirian.... how is one going to even grasp?
However, if one have the expereince then a hint in the direction will get one there. That simple. For some, my answer is not satisfaction. For some, they see answer is solidly infront of them.


In addition,
If people told me I have to understand the basics, I go for the basic. May be I don't know what I think I know. Or I miss something very important.
Bottom line is one has to take responsibilities.
Why not one take the action to follow the direction and get the basic instead of complaning about the comment?

As an example, what is turning head side way got to do with the Lung Medirian or metal? No one said it doesn't feel painfull that other find one's blind spot. But, that is the opportunity to learn. IMHO.

I am always happy and thankfull when other show me even just the tip of iceberg. Why deman for all? with what right i can deman for other to give me all he/she has? Taking responsibility to find out for oneself is the journey to progress, an answer is not good enough. Why attacking people ? it is about Rene's theory not about Hendrik's communication or other things... right?

IMHO, there is a different between study, learn, believe, experience, knowledgeble, and really Know. To study, knowledgeble, and belive are very frigile.
To be able to really "know" is the key. and giving just an answer can't get one to really "know". IMHO.

[WCis4me]

Hendrick,

However, if one have the expereince then a hint in the direction will get one there.
Why not be direct, efficient, why beat around the bush? Isn't WC about being efficient?
If you don't want to be direct or open to giving answers then why even participate in a forum 'discussion'?

Taking responsibility to find out for oneself is the journey to progress, an answer is not good enough.
Then why not say that instead of half answers?
Giving only confusionisms and no substantial answers gives one the impression that you have no substantial answers.

Why attacking people ?
I certainly was far from attacking you. I was stating my perception alone of some of your posts. John inferred language might be an issue, I suggested some solutions and I did so in a very respectful way.

Regards,

Vicky

[yenhoi]

Hendrik answers questions even with jerks hazing him as he types he doesnt care to answer questions and he doesnt care if people dont like that he doesnt care...

good stuff.

:eek:

[John Weiland]

Hi Hendrik,

Well said. I admire your patience. I'm working on mine.

I can't say I suffer the fools gladly. There are so many and so little time. :p


Originally posted by Phenix
"When someone asks a clarification question (when that someone has knowledge of the things you are discussing and you know that all too well) and you answer with a comment like 'you first have to understand the basics' it is disrespectful IMO. Why not just answer. "

IMHO.

It is obvious for some to be able to feel which medirian is activating with any hand techincs disregard of style. be it taiji or....

Now, if one don't have the experience and knowledge even if one claim to have about medirian.... how is one going to even grasp?
However, if one have the expereince then a hint in the direction will get one there. That simple. For some, my answer is not satisfaction. For some, they see answer is solidly infront of them.


In addition,
If people told me I have to understand the basics, I go for the basic. May be I don't know what I think I know. Or I miss something very important.
Bottom line is one has to take responsibilities.
Why not one take the action to follow the direction and get the basic instead of complaning about the comment?

As an example, what is turning head side way got to do with the Lung Medirian or metal? No one said it doesn't feel painfull that other find one's blind spot. But, that is the opportunity to learn. IMHO.

I am always happy and thankfull when other show me even just the tip of iceberg. Why deman for all? with what right i can deman for other to give me all he/she has? Taking responsibility to find out for oneself is the journey to progress, an answer is not good enough. Why attacking people ? it is about Rene's theory not about Hendrik's communication or other things... right?

IMHO, there is a different between study, learn, believe, experience, knowledgeble, and really Know. To study, knowledgeble, and belive are very frigile.
To be able to really "know" is the key. and giving just an answer can't get one to really "know". IMHO.

Regards,

[anerlich]

I can't say I suffer the fools gladly.

Nor I. So if I get fed a load of tripe, as above, I throw that sucker back.

If you're going to pull the "pearls before swine" act, make sure you've got the good stuff and not Mikimoto.

Lest anyone want to get in my face about not sharing, and to show that it can actually be done, I some time back typed up the notes from the course I attended and placed them on my personal website.

http://www.zeta.org.au/~ajnerl/tcm/tcm.html

I'm still rather sceptical about qigong and TCM, including everything in the document, so if you want to take issue with any of the material presented, do it with someone who cares.

Enough.

:o

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by WCis4me
Hi John,

Hi Vicky,


John Wrote:

So there other WC groups out there, whose WC is different from others? Not just that but people are convinced of their credibility after a luncheon and 2 day get together?
I certainly don't know enough about Hendrick or his family's history to say that it isn't credible and this post really isn't about that.

The first day, Hendrik, KJ, Tom Parker, my siheng Steve, and a couple of others spent 12 hours straight with Hendrik. How many of your class periods would that amount to? The next day, I didn't spend as much time with him because I was acting as host for the event which in toto went on for five hours. Since then, we have only communicated through the web, mostly publicly here on KFO.


I find it interesting that the words 'very differently' were used in comparison of 2 WC families yet there is all this banter about how TWC can't be from WWB,LB, LJ, YM etc as it isn't like everyone elses WC, and that ALLLLLLLL the other WC are VERY similar.

Anyone saying that all the Yip Man lineages are VERY similar, hasn't been around the Wing Chun block. There are many so-called Wing Chun teachers and schools that is a waste of time and money. The blather about "grand unification theory" is Rene's joke. Some schools have teachers and assistants with only two or three years "Wing Chun" experience as taught by the high mucky mucks of their personal delusions. Cho Family Wing Chun, Hendrik's lineage, separated in the Red Boat days from the lineage that led to Yip Man.


I have been hearing that post after post on various threads and now, out of the blue, we find out that one WC is VERY DIFFERENT than another, and neither was TWC.

I could go on about how I perceive Cho Family Wing Chun to be different from Leung Sheung lineage. Would you like to discuss that? In spite of major differences, Hendrik's is the first Wing Chun outside of my lineage which drew my respect.


As far as the rest (re: TCM and various types of Chi and meridian therapy) I am not qualified to answer, but in my ignorance I have also found some of Hendrick's posts to be both talking in parables/circles (not direct in answering questions, instead choosing to answer questions with more questions) and on the arrogant side.

That's funny. Although initially with his first KFO posts, I tuned out, more and more I find real insights in his posts. His are one of the few I archive for personal reference. Well, now that I think about it, the only one. I say this without any desire to drop my teacher and go follow him---that will never happen---but because I see real insight and value there. It appears Hendrik posts because he loves his lineage, the study of Chan, Wing Chun, and its history. Unlike so many others, he does not have a particular axe to grind or a school to support.


When someone asks a clarification question (when that someone has knowledge of the things you are discussing and you know that all too well) and you answer with a comment like 'you first have to understand the basics' it is disrespectful IMO.

That's more of a reflection on the reader's mindset than the writer's.


Why not just answer. When you don't It gives the appearance of someone with a huge ego just playing games with others because they think they are better or too good for the others.

That may be one reason. :D Hendrik's not a god, you know. He's only human.


IMO. I am not saying or implying that is Hendrick's intent, I am just saying it has appeared that way to me at times. From what you said in your post it sounds like it has to many others as well.

Nope. That's not what I said. He has been targeted by trolls and a Moonie-like cult for speaking his mind about what he knows.


That is a shame if he really does have that much to share and is willing to do so.

Exactly. Quite right.


Perhaps he should give some consideration to his approach if so many are getting that impression, or perhaps if language is the difficulty, as you suggested, speak Spanish or Cantonese if that is easier as there are at least a couple of translators of both on here.

You make a lot of assumptions. His home country was Indonesia. His Chinese dialect is Fujienese, although he can speak Cantonese. There might be one other on this board who speaks it, but does KFO support the writing of Chinese? As different as Cantonese is from Mandarin, so is Fujienese. Other Chinese have trouble with the metaphors and idioms.


In fact one of the people hendrick appeared condescending with speaks SEVERAL languages (along with dialects) quite fluently or very near fluently, along with the several you mention Hendrick speaks, I am sure they could come to better communication terms.
That is of course if it is only about language.

Quite likely true again.

Regards,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by anerlich
Nor I. So if I get fed a load of tripe, as above, I throw that sucker back.

If you're going to pull the "pearls before swine" act, make sure you've got the good stuff and not Mikimoto.

This isn't a good medium for truth detection, is it? :D


Lest anyone want to get in my face about not sharing, and to show that it can actually be done, I some time back typed up the notes from the course I attended and placed them on my personal website.

If anyone said that about you, I'd set 'em straight.


I'm still rather sceptical about qigong and TCM, including everything in the document, so if you want to take issue with any of the material presented, do it with someone who cares.

I am sceptical too, but keep part of my mind open to it. Like anything, 99 percent of it is bull pucky.

I just didn't like seeing you two kids fight. :D

Regards,

[anerlich]

For those who prefer hints rather than answers, if you look at where Lung 1 is, you might see how turning the head might affect that meridian. And what are Lungs associated with? Not exhalation and inhalation, surely (actually a neuromusclar function rather than the lungs themselves, but TCM and anatomy never did quite match up).

Prove me wrong ...

[yylee]

this is hands Yin Lung Channel, 11 points.

[yylee]

hands Yang Little Intestine 19 points

[yylee]

Originally posted by John Weiland

You make a lot of assumptions. His home country was Indonesia. His Chinese dialect is Fujienese, although he can speak Cantonese. There might be one other on this board who speaks it, but does KFO support the writing of Chinese? As different as Cantonese is from Mandarin, so is Fujienese. Other Chinese have trouble with the metaphors and idioms.


John, Hendrik's classic Chinese writing is amazingly poetic... his level of Chinese language is very high.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp#five

[yuanfen]

Cross paradigmatic conversations are seldom easy.

[Phenix]

Vicky,

Why not be direct, efficient, why beat around the bush? Isn't WC about being efficient? ---V


I wish I can do a CDrom burning from my mind. Save time and save energy. But is that realistic? HS



If you don't want to be direct or open to giving answers then why even participate in a forum 'discussion'? --V

Direct works only when the communication protocall has been set up. or having the same wave length. otherwise, it is not realistic.

For example, Say everyone is knowledgeble about Fok sau.
Now, if I ask
how should Fok Sau done so that it will be similar to a pice of lite Silk covering the opponents' bridge?
How to give a direct answers on how to do that? Is that possible? what happen to the structure? what happen to the breathing? what happen to the sensing? what happen to the Yin and Yang medirians attraction and repel?.... how much force is adequate (ofcause depend on situation,,,,) --HS




Then why not say that instead of half answers?
Giving only confusionisms and no substantial answers gives one the impression that you have no substantial answers. --V

You do half of the home work---- thinking which is needed. I do half of the communication protocall adjusting.
then the data will transfer.

It is better for you to find out yourself and not I give you the answer. That way you will remember and know if the answer is correct, since you involve in the process of searching it.

Do we want WCK next generation fill with ton's of program robot? Nah, I hope every lineage has great thinker and great achiever but not robot which take an answer and doesn't know where it comes from. with "my sifu said" and if the sifu died then all stop.
no one is perfect but the capability of capable to search has to be pass along the answer. IMHO

I don't like to give answer. I like to give more then answer. I like to give live to the answer. When things are take for granted. That will be dissaster.

Say the Lung medirian, exhale and open the hands to both side will feel this medirian transport from chest to thumb. When you "feel/sense and know" about it. no one will again fool you or take that away from you. But the above is just my experience. Until you are there The answer I give you is no used. It is my answer not yours.

IMHO, one of the problem today in WCK is that it is full of MY SIFU SAID.
Say the elbow at the center line. That block the heck out of the transport of the heart meridian. The clamping knees, that block the raise of the 3 yin meridians ... no one questions about it . But just do it as " my sifu said". How long can WCK survive if things keep going this way?

one can Call me strange or nuts.
But, Sifu Said cannot replace the rule of natural. Certainly, one can use TCM as model to explain things.
One can use Yoga's Chakra as model to explain things. it doesn't matter. Human is human. and there is only one natural. anything is fine if it does the job.
But "Sifu said" is just sifu said. IMHO
--HS

[anerlich]

While I think he's ridiculously full of himself, Erle Montaigue's www.taijiworld.com IMO has some excellent diagrams of meridians.

Nice to see that some can share info ...

[anerlich]

I wish I can do a CDrom burning from my mind. Save time and save energy.

A diskette might be sufficient. 1.44 MB is a **** big post.

[reneritchie]

Hendrik is rediculously knowledgeable about Chinese classical history, writing, philosophy, etc. but he has a hard time in online mediums partly because he varies from hyper to reticent, and partly because, as others have said, this is his fourth or fifth language, and a very different culture.

He also has an interest background in full contact karate in Malaysia, as well as WCK.

Communication is oddly like WCK, you need to make the bridge if you want to exchange. If not, no worries. Enjoy the circus, as we all do.

[anerlich]

Communication is oddly like WCK, you need to make the bridge if you want to exchange.

That's fair. The problem here is that Phenix's bridge demands that we treat him as the teacher and us as pupils with some sort of assignment he imposes unilaterally.

Accepting this requires us to believe that he, on what is meant to be a discussion between peers, not a lecture theatre, is far more konwledgeable on the particular subject discussed than anyone else on the board, an assertion both patronising and improbable.

He ain't the only one who's been around the block.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik sez:
Say the Lung medirian, exhale and open the hands to both side will feel this medirian transport from chest to thumb. When you "feel/sense and know" about it. no one will again fool you or take that away from you. But the above is just my experience. Until you are there The answer I give you is no used. It is my answer not yours.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good example of different paradigms at work in our conversations---western anatomy versus non western analysis of the body. Both can have "proofs". But in the above statement
Hendrik points out the nature of the "proof"- it's personal and must be felt for oneself. Hendrik IMO is not being condescending-
he is speaking in the language of pointing to something. If he describes his own reaction to the energy reaching the fingers it
would remain a concept by intellection- and meaningless to someone who does not work on the experimentation for themeseves.

His comments on noi gung, bringing/jamming the elbow in too much and other things also come from a fairly self consistent framework
which requires shared experience, an openness to nuances and verification for oneself-not a requirement of faith or subordination-
which also means imo, the engagement of the self.

I can see how some are misunderstanding Hendrik-unfortunately.
Apart from the fractured English- as Rene pointed out Hendrik has some personal characteristics which are just him-not good or bad- just him. But in some of the things he talks about- it does not matter whether one is using only a TCM model or a classic Indian model-
there are some equivalencies- including a search for a natural
way of doing things minimizing if not eliminating metaphysical abstractions.

Wing Chun didnt grow out of Gray's anatomy and it doesnt hurt to be open to a non Gray- structurealist way of looking at the art. There are differences between Hendrik's wing chun and mine-
but on the noi gung there are some great commonalities.
Of course he has some ofhis own views on different arts- not all of which I agree with.

I have met him and have spent a good part of two days with him-
discussing, demonstarting, seeing his written materials - I dont see him as being condescending or dogmatic.YLee points out that Hendrik's Chinese is esclelent- even poetic.

I have nothing but respect for Andrew N as well- there just seems to be some communication problems on this thread-
hopefully with time it might lessen

[Phenix]

"The problem here is that Phenix's bridge demands that we treat him as the teacher and us as pupils with some sort of assignment he imposes unilaterally."


I don't demands that other treat me as a teacher.

The Chinese term "Xie Wen" means learning to ask.

It is in my culture that If I ask, I ask politely and sincerely, then I listern with respect until I know what is it about.

The person who told me his/her view might be totally wrong. But, without I ask politely, show sincerely, and listern and think about the whole things. I didn't do my job.

I don't challenge what I don't know. I don't discount on things I have not yet achieve but it is a part of reality. I find out first what it is before I ask next question. IMHO.


Joy,

IMHO,
Without all these "Medirian type" of experience (ofcause one can use Indian model....ect) , there is no way for one to fully use the Sensing. Sensing rely on Medirian experience not just those can be qoute from TCM books or Website which drawing some lines can call that medirians... it is like looking at different drawing of Chakras and thinking know it all. but, How to open the chakras? without that the experience is useless knowledge.

it is all about energy management and one needs a model beyond the physical such as electrical system is different to mechanical system. IMHO.

The transformation of Sensing needs to feel "the medirian" and flow, and only when the local muscular stress drop to a certain level the feeling of the medirian will reveal. the advance the sensing the more relax needed. only Until then, Silk covering the bridge. The one feather cannot land as said in Taiji classic. The only I know you you don't know me as said in the Taiji Classic can be implemented.

In the ancient Chinese Clasification of level, without the capable of experiencing the medirian is out of the Door. after grasp the experience of the medirian the is in door, only after this "in door" one can continous to investigate and polish one's skill.
That is a part of Dong Jing or knowing the Jing as the Taiji Classic said. Here I use Taiji Classic or Chakra to show it is about nature and nature has different dimention which needs different model to model. It cannot be dogmatism.

There are "body" and "application" or Tee or Yoong.
In body cultivation, one uses the condition of medirian to cultivate one's body and structure.....
In the application cultivation, one uses the medirian like a radar system or the web of the spider. meridian can be look at the treat of the web at application.

For example,
A fok sau is not a fok sau if it is just pressing the bridge or limb... of the opponents. if one can be a silk covering the bridge, one just have to "follow" or tracking. NO energy need to spend but the oponent will have a heck of the time to trying to escape.

why need to use fast against fast? one is always there sensing and everywhere. since while sensing everything is relax and can be instantaneously evoke to fajing. it cut the delay of doing one technic and then has to undo the local muscular tension to switch to other technics.... Thus, I never belive in fomular and dimention.
the invisible net implement by awareness and medirians are what i need disregard of how other changes and how time changes into linear or non linear.

That is the platform of Lay Lau Hui Song. It differentiate the Hung Gar or Shao Lin type of "this hand counter that hand or this foot work... type DNA..... " IMHO

while contact, body weight shifting is too slow, footwork is too slow, can one perform all what needs to be done at the point of contact with Yee, dynamic rearange of structure with the feed back system of medirian, and auto compensation of resultant force vector, so that it has no over shoot. thus, it is so dynamic that it beyond shape due to constant change and adaptation. Why worried about BJJ to take one down if one has the cultivation of "one spot of contact". everything should bounce off or disintegrate or neutralized. That is the bottom line of the advance WCK. and not only WCK can do that people like Wang Xiang Chai of Yee Chuang ..... ect are living proof. IMHO.

Certainly, we all human, who is perfect. But, if the ancestor can do that no reason we cannot. the key is to re evoke thier modelling and simulate it. Then, we will get there. No one said it is simple. but, to me, IMHO, only the model is completed then SLT will be activate. But, model can be anything, indian, chinese, japanese...... anything works.

Thus your WCK is not mine, John's is his own..... it is ok to be XYZ or ABC lineage. The bottom line is about technology and there need not only one type of model in the whole word. since no model is reality. There also no oldest or most original. original is reality and reality is as it is.

Again, I don't look and demand what other do. I just hope the communication is in a way that Listern before reacting. There are lots of things one doesn't even dream about. And they exist. IMHO

[kj]

Great post, Joy, and good points per your norm. Knowing Hendrik, I highly concur with John and René as well.

Hendrik is only human, as we all are. I don't expect to be in 100% agreement with him all the time. And as with others, I don't expect him to be 100% right all the time, whether we agree or not.

I don't have the background to understand the depth in much of what he says, but I have never known him to be stingy in helping me to find the way as needed and when the time is right. I'm pretty sure I know about some things he's not an expert on, so none of this makes me feel bad in the least.

As René alluded, Hendrik's brain races, a single idea triggering a limitless array of connected ideas almost bursting out of him to be shared. In context, I can appreciate how concise Hendrik often manages to be. I often wish I could manage as well myself.

Hendrik is easy and fun to be with, and has a delightful if mischievous sense of humor. I have found him not only to be credible, but one of the most sincere and generous people I have ever come to know. He has earned my respect. And I like the guy. :)

It seems less important to Hendrik for him to tell a thing, than it is for others to find or understand for themselves. Yet he is always dropping bread crumbs, even without trying. To my view, this couldn't be ****her from selfishness or condescension. My own patience with him has been duly rewarded, and I appreciate the enormous patience and generosity he has shown to me in return.

I don't believe Hendrik has a malicious or condescending bone in his body. Unfortunately, his unique and sometimes obfuscated communications style easily lends to misunderstanding. Things are not always as they appear, and people certainly not as they seem on the internet.

Even with understanding, his unique personality and style of communicating is admittedly easier for some to digest than others. And some folks don't like to be "shared at." I think it is fair to say that some of us have grown to rather enjoy his style, rather than be frustrated by it. I just happen to be one who is glad to have cut the guy some slack.

When it comes to directness, Hendrik may be Yin to some others' Yang. Thankfully we have the best of both here. Hail diversity and balance.

So that's my unsolicited $.02 on why Hendrik is okay. Back to lurk mode.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phenix]

Thank you everyone.

I appology if you find me annoying. Thus, There must be something i need to learn.


Back to Rene's theory.
Rene, you seriously thinking I buy this theory? hahaha:D
History is too dull and boring now.

Let's get Energy (not Physical):D

[yuanfen]

Hi Hendrik-

good post. Some comments.

1. your analogy of the distinction between a mechanical and
electrical system is a good one. I have thought along those lines as well. The caveat I have for myself is that an "alive" system
includes the integration and smooth working of the mechanical
(bone alignmnets) and the electrical. Mechanical misalignmnet can block the energy flow and the understanding thereof.

2. In a different way- I have been alluding to the synthesis of two approaches(mechanical/electrical analogy and parallel) that the greats in wing chun did...and good folks could and should do.

3. Indian "marmasastra" had and has meridian models as well- though details can vary from TCM. The meridians are "nadis"
and there are yin/yang complimentarities. The chakra models are
also "natural" approaches to energy flow. And like the Chinese - there are implications for healing or hurting. Unfortunately in the transference of knowledge- the internal elements are not transported. Not just in CMA..there are folks teaching yoga at YMCAs and spas who dont and cant go beyond the shape of the postures and assume that they are doing complete yoga.

4. Regarding noi gong- due to northern "snobbery" and also nationalism..."internal" has been used for putting taichi.baqua/hsingI above other arts or making Chinese versus non Chinese distinctions. These are more recent ---100 or so years only distinctions... and there have been dialogues of the deaf on these things.

joy

[yuanfen]

Hi Hendrik-

good post. Some comments.

1. your analogy of the distinction between a mechanical and
electrical system is a good one. I have thought along those lines as well. The caveat I have for myself is that an "alive" system
includes the integration and smooth working of the mechanical
(bone alignmnets) and the electrical. Mechanical misalignmnet can block the energy flow and the understanding thereof.

2. In a different way- I have been alluding to the synthesis of two approaches(mechanical/electrical analogy and parallel) that the greats in wing chun did...and good folks could and should do.

3. Indian "marmasastra" had and has meridian models as well- though details can vary from TCM. The meridians are "nadis"
and there are yin/yang complimentarities. The chakra models are
also "natural" approaches to energy flow. And like the Chinese - there are implications for healing or hurting. Unfortunately in the transference of knowledge- the internal elements are not transported. Not just in CMA..there are folks teaching yoga at YMCAs and spas who dont and cant go beyond the shape of the postures and assume that they are doing complete yoga.

4. Regarding noi gong- due to northern "snobbery" and also nationalism..."internal" has been used for putting taichi.baqua/hsingI above other arts or making Chinese versus non Chinese distinctions. These are more recent ---100 or so years only distinctions... and there have been dialogues of the deaf on these things.

joy

[ntc]

Though WC was not born out of TCM, it is very interesting to note the TCM-related aspects that are implicated in WC, especially the theory of Yin/Yang. For example, we all know that a typical hand-based technique consists of one hand defending and the other hand attacking (eg, tan da). The defensive hand is the "Yin" aspect of the attack, wheras the attacking hand is the "Yang" aspect. Furthermore, it also applies to traditional Chinese kung fu. In traditional training, one learns not only to break another's bones (Yang), but how to treat the injury as well (Yin). Knowledge of the meridians and the flow of Qi (Chi) depending on the time of the day will allow one to make a certain strike particularly deadly and effective. For example, the Qi flow is abundant in the Kidney meridian between 5pm and 7pm. Making certain strikes at certain points along the kidney channel during this period of time can result in severe injuries to the person. TCM was used often during the pre-gun days in China when a person's only weapon was their hands. Almost all Chinese systems have pressure point attacks (dim mak) that target points based on TCM, and WC is no different.

[Phenix]

Joy,

If it is the time to do it. Then, let's do it.
forget about those his-story things. Let's get energized.
Faith in Shao lIn, Ming, Emei, Chan wouldn't do it. Only if one experience it will do it. Sorry folks no offend.

IMHO, there is where the future of WCK has to be. Can't live in the past Can't live in the future. However, the experience of Energy content sure will make one's WCK better and healtier body at this instant.

I suggest Gay Hendricks breathing method because that is a simple direct way to understand and get a proper breathing. The chinese myth of heigong has to start with Gay hendrick's breathing. If not it is going to cause problem. So why Gay Hendricks? Because he is a western phd from standford university and have been doing research on breathing. That is the safest way to go Breathing and energize.

I suggest Andrew Wield Sound body sound mind because that is the state of conciousness most people will not even get there even they practice Chan....

These two things above IMHO are the foundation if one wants to understand the "body of SLT". With these two things we can build. It doesn't mean the old chinese classic is no good or qigong is no good. No. it is just we have been soo far away from the clasicall Chinese way of understanding the topic. We need a sure short to get in to the paradigm. Time is running out.

I love the Yin Yang stuffs but without experiencing the proper breathing. Yin Yang is very far away from reality.

Rene, you want a grand unification theory? we all have one, that is called following the nature of our own body before other things.

Both the Kuit of Emei 12 Zhuang and YIk Kam SLT shares this following Kuit.

----- Spontaneously return to the Nature

And nature can be from Standford university class room, or U of Arizona, Or Emei's Goldern Summit, or Kangaroo Point of Autralia, or River Ganges of India.... It doesn't matter.

[ntc]

Phenix:

If you are able to take a bit more time to look at the philosophy behind the Yin and the Yang, as well as researching the characteristics behind all the techniques in Wing Chun, you are going to find that it really is not that far from reality. In fact, the Yin/Yang philosophy is embedded in Chinese kung fu, and is the basis for most aspects of Chinese kung fu. That is one of the key reasons why the Yin/Yang (black/white circle) is used throughout Chinese kung fu.... the black denotes the Yang, and the white denotes the Yin. The black within the white denotes the Yang within the Yin, and vice versa.

If you will open up a bit and think about what I have said, I trust you will find a totally new meaning to a lot of things.

If, however, you choose to totally disregard me, that is fine with me as well. Just thought I'd share.

[ntc]

Phenix:

Oh, and speaking about breathing, there is a Yin/Yang aspect to it as well:

inhaling: Yin aspect
exhaling: Yang aspect

When you breath right, the Yin and Yang aspect are balanced, and you will not be short of breath.

[Phenix]

NTC,

I understand your meaning.
Here I am trying to point direction for non classical Chinese back ground friend.

And, it is a big responsibility to show direction. Thus, I use the Western researchers as a direction. So, things cannot go wrong.
especially all direction should not have complecation of health.

Thanks

[yuanfen]

Hendrik-
What is Gay Hendrick's(Stanford PhD) breathing regimen about---
any URL's? Curious.

I agree that the verification of the internal works have to be confirmed by practitioners in our time- and neither the search for Leung Bik or the debunking of Leung Bik will help.

The TCM aspect--- not evryone in the transmission of CMA have been consistently and consciously knowledgeable about TCM models... but wing chun came from Chinese culture and even in the transmission- key principles can be passed on.

One of the problems is that some new agers have taken over using eastern terms without understanding them. No wonder some good old fashioned teachers say---dont worry too much--- just do the slt correctly- I will show you.

[ntc]

Phenix:

I see... thanks for clarifying. And good luck with your friend.

[Phenix]

Joy,

What is Gay Hendrick's(Stanford PhD) breathing regimen about---
any URL's? Curious. -J

Try this.

http://www.breathing.com/articles/gay-hendricks.htm

http://www.audiorenaissance.com/books/10000027.html



I agree that the verification of the internal works have to be confirmed by practitioners in our time- and neither the search for Leung Bik or the debunking of Leung Bik will help. --J

Yup. even with Yik kam's writting. It takes so long for me to study because I just don't accept writting as writting. what if kuit cause healt problem?

Shock or inch punch when train wrongly in hard bow way can cause heart problem. that is a reality.

people migth think I am new ager or dogmatis.... hahaha. As you know, I am an engineer. So, the bottom line what I am looking for is if it works. The Hendrick guy is Doc similar to Andrew Wield type... very pragmatic and practical.

[ntc]

Yuan:

I totally agree with you. TCM is taken very seriously in China, and I hope that it will reach a similar level of importance here in the US, and signs are indicating that it is. TCM brings so much health benefits to people, especially from a natural and a preventive maintenance point of view.

I also noticed that a lot of schools here do not place any emphasis on the Qi Gong aspect of Wing Chun, which is really found in Sil Lim Tao. That is where one would learn to promote the free flowing of Qi/Blood in the body, and to garner inner strength and Qi in the Dan Tian. I have noticed that physical strength is a very big emphasis in the WC practiced here in the US, with not too much focus on the internal, soft strength.

[ntc]

Phenix:

I couldn't agree with you more. Health problems, and especially the heart and the lungs, can occur with improper training. And a lot of health implications is typically found in the kuen kuit of the various styles. It is fascinating to read these kuit's and after understanding these styles to be able to understand how poor training can actually present a hazard to health in certain ways.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by ntc
Phenix:

I couldn't agree with you more. Health problems, and especially the heart and the lungs, can occur with improper training. And a lot of health implications is typically found in the kuen kuit of the various styles. It is fascinating to read these kuit's and after understanding these styles to be able to understand how poor training can actually present a hazard to health in certain ways.


Where were you located in USA?

I hope I can give simple answer to others. but as you know, there are tons of prerequisite. One step wrong, the health is affected.

[ntc]

Phenix:

I assume you are addressing your question to me. I am not from the US, but just here temporarily visiting.

[[Censored]]

The Hendrick guy is Doc similar to Andrew Wield type... very pragmatic and practical.

Well, I'm sure he has some practical fighting experience, if his parents named him "Gay" ;)

Yin and yang? Not a useful concept in martial art IMO. A qigong teacher once told me "5 element theory is great....because it's always right!" :)

[PaulH]

Okay, Hendrix. Can you tell us the symptoms indicating that the inch punch is adversely affecting your health?

Regards,

[ntc]

Censored:

That's ok.... like I said... it is pretty interesting to see how ignored the whole concept of "Yin/Yang" is when relating to WC training here in the US. You cannot get enough of it in China.

[yylee]

Originally posted by ntc
In fact, the Yin/Yang philosophy is embedded in Chinese kung fu, and is the basis for most aspects of Chinese kung fu. That is one of the key reasons why the Yin/Yang (black/white circle) is used throughout Chinese kung fu.... the black denotes the Yang, and the white denotes the Yin. The black within the white denotes the Yang within the Yin, and vice versa.


Does that mean Andrew has a little bit of Hendrik in him? the Y... within the Y.... , and vice versa. LOL!

:D

[[Censored]]

it is pretty interesting to see how ignored the whole concept of "Yin/Yang" is when relating to WC training here in the US.

Thankfully so. The last thing WC needs, in the US or anywhere, is more unfalsifiable theories: satisfying enough to cling to, but vague enough to be impotent. Or can you describe any WC problem that is solved strictly through "knowledge of yin and yang"?

The obsessive compulsion towards pedantic lectures on the "centerline concept" is more than enough for me, thank you. :eek:

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by ntc
Censored:

That's ok.... like I said... it is pretty interesting to see how ignored the whole concept of "Yin/Yang" is when relating to WC training here in the US. You cannot get enough of it in China.
Dang, NTC, don't just reveal all of our marketing plans at once. :D

(Ka-ching, ka-ching---the sound of cash registers ringing.) :p

Mercans are dying to hear all about Wing Chun with a patina of TCM thrown in. There's gold in them thar hills. :p

[yylee]

Originally posted by [Censored]
[i] Or can you describe any WC problem that is solved strictly through "knowledge of yin and yang"?

The obsessive compulsion towards pedantic lectures ...

Oh sure can, we need more cool headed guys like you [Censored] to balance out the obsessive compulsive lecture notes and get the yin/yangs in equilibrium....

[yuanfen]

One doesnt have to use the terms yin/yang and eventually reach equivalencies of balancing different things- but those who have
some exposure to yin/yang thinking- things can come easier-
like
the balance between bong and tan..or the yin within the yang even in the tan.
IMO- these balancing ideas came naturally in the Chinese setting
without formal repetition of the terms. When importing the art to the west we often imitate the shape without always learning the proper energy flows and the balances.
The male female dualism and balamcing is well known in several societies. In Indian martial arts there are complimentary male-female strengths and principles called shakta and shakti. The equivalencies are just about exact.
Falsifiable- sure--- have someone who knows something show you how the proper balancing aids the energy flow.
Sorry for the typos- gotta get back to wc

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Okay, Hendrix. Can you tell us the symptoms indicating that the inch punch is adversely affecting your health?

Regards,

In any instant if you stop your breathing un naturally or hold the breathing to generate pressure while hitting sand bag....
it is going to ruin the heart / Lung medirian due to stagnation of qi to produce local mascular force.
Most Hard Bow way of training can damage heart after 40 year old due to accumulation of stagnation.

Any practice even with those elbow to center line.... while doing SLT/SNT. if it cause any uncomfortable to the chest. STOP and DON"T do it anymore. The proper feeling while doing SLT/SNT is it is similar to wearing a silk cloth in the wind. Nothing NOT A THING should have any slight pressure or tensing. Scan through your body while doing SLT/SNT. Drop any practice which generate pressure or tensing. that part which is tensing will be your Dead Weakness. A punch to that spot will take you down and damage the internal organ because while in everyday training, it has become a habit of produce stagnation and weaken the qi or blood flow there. IMHO.

Think about it. I might be wrong. But If I am right. Then, I hope you well. Don't do stupid things which cause us our health in the name of we prepare for a fight which might never happen in the future. IT is just not worhted. and there are better way to get to be good.

Because SLT has lots of details and one needs to learn how to manual oneself. Thus, it is prone to creat more stagnation problem then say Hung Gar which general speaking a punch is a punch. for example, say the so called Sam Bai Fut part of the SNT. If one doing it not properly it will become alots of tension both in breathing and mental focusing.


Somehow some one preaching doing the motion for prolong time without explain what happen internally.

IMHO, the in and out of hands should be done within a cycle of inhale and exhale.
following the flow out and flow in and up of the hand 3 ying and 3 yang medirians. If done this way, everything is smooth and effortless. Then, when the breathing get longer naturally, the time of performing this motion extended.

Now, if one doesn't know about this but take things explicitly. I would say, 1, elbow locking will cause the 3 ying medirian to stagnation. 2, forcing breathing unnaturally willl cause further stagnation in the chest. So, the hand will have no power but the chest get more and more stagnated or one can feel tension in the chest area.

Certainly, people can argue with me saying "what if I do it with a fews breath" . sure, but that defeat the purpuse, the purpose of this movements IMHO is to flow the qi out from chest while exhale and flow the qi in and up to the head while inhale.... Flow the qi out has two implication.

in term of "body" cultivation, this smoothing the flow of the internal qi thus strengthen the internal organs.

IN term of "application" cultivation, this train the Yee and Qi's unification. So, Yee is there Qi will be there will be achieved....ect

Doing it with lots of breathing cycle will not coordinate the in and out of the physical, yee, and breathing. but become segmented. and lost the totallity of one pice.

Again, I can be dead wrong. But what if I am right?

[anerlich]

Thus, I use the Western researchers as a direction. So, things cannot go wrong.

My Dad is a retired Professor of Philosophy and was involved in various research projects as an ethical advisor. I can assure you that when Western Researchers are involved, things CAN and DO go wrong.

The breathing regimen I subsribe to is from a Russian source, Dhykaniye, promoted on Scott Sonnon's website, www.rmax.tv. Some of his stuff on psychophysiology (i.e. like Sound Body, Sound Mind) will expand your outlook as well.

Plus the guy is a fighter - a silver medallist at the world Sambo championships, plus the US National Sambo Coach.

There are many paths up the mountain. Even for us poor Gwailos.


Qi Gong aspect of Wing Chun, which is really found in Sil Lim Tao.

Opinions vary. Most qigong taught at WC schools was bolted on from somewhere else, be the instructors Chinese or otherwise. Some seem to think WC's qigong aspects were lost or kept secret through the generations, but that begs the question WHY?

In most arts its the *real" combat aspects that are *allegedly* hidden, not the health stuff.

The Leung Bik stories are an exercise in rigorous scholarship and detective work including footage from security videos compared to such a proposition.

And to all you scaremongers trying to tell me I'm risking my health by training without reference to some arcane set of kuen kuit, I hads a check up last month. The health of someone ten years younger, allegedly. And I just live a reasonably healthy life without silly diets, qigong (though I practice Astanga part time from a Rodney Yee vid ;) ) or other regimens of unproven value. I do the ROSS breathing drills to increase my performance in WC, boxing and BJJ, not because they are going to bring me closer communion with the Tao.

Unfortunately such WC elders as WSL did not benefit from the purported longevity benefits of "WC qigong". No disrespect intended, but the fact remains he left us sooner than he should have despite the allegedly awesome health benefits of the style he practised.

Where's the proof that any of these WC/qigong assertions have any factual basis?

I agree yin/yang and 5 element theory etc. have some philosophical aspects which can be related to WC or any physical endeavor. But using them as the underpinning of one's health is like bungee jumping using dental floss.


Mercans are dying to hear all about Wing Chun with a patina of TCM thrown in. There's gold in them thar hills.

Now THAT is an incontrovertible truth. Wish I was morally handicapped enough to get down in that gutter and start panning the dregs. Plenty of others have made that pact with Mammon, though.

[yenhoi]

anerlich are you then familiar with the BodyFlow (etc) program(s)?


:eek:

[ntc]

John and Yuan: good posts... thanks.

Phenix: very interesting point of view in bringing up the TCM effects by certain techniques in WC. I can certainly concur with you on quite a few of the symptoms and indications you mention, especially regarding the impact on the Ying/Yang meridians. It definitely is an intriguing way to look at it, and you bring up some very good point. Thanks for sharing.

Anerlich: regarding your comment questioning the value and legitimacy of Qi gong, the proof and evidence of the art is well documented, and even published by professional medical associations in the US. You just have to go search for them and read up on them. Then whether you buy into it or not means nothing to anyone as any benefit you might have gotten from Qi Gong would be solely to you alone and to no one else. And so, if Qi gong means nothing to you... perfectly OK.... any would-have-been-Qi-Gong benefits would be your loss. So, no sweat... if you don't buy into it and you are keeping healthy the way you are, then continue doing what you have been doing, because, after all... isn't the ultimate benefit from any form of healthcare is to keep and to stay healthy?

By the way, just a side note... if you knew Wong Shun Leung, you will know that he smoked and drank a lot. Everytime I would go visit him in his school in Mong Kok, he would be huffing and puffing down cigarettes. His diet was not the healthiest either, and so, Qi gong or not, he was at high risk all the time. And so, his early departure, as sad as it was since he was such a fun person to be around, really came as no surprise to me.

[PaulH]

Thanks, Hendrix. Your discussion on stagnation of internal energy and its adverse effects on the human body are persuasive enough. I will pay more attention to body tension in the future. Perhaps you can share further insights on the soft internal power specifically cultivated from the SLT?

Anerlich, from what I know of Wong Sigung, he did not believe in the practice of Qi for fighting. Hence he would be a poor citing example of the supposed health benefits that can be derived from practicing WC.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Perhaps you can share further insights on the soft internal power specifically cultivated from the SLT?



IMHO, there is no soft internal power, I look at it as, how we following nature to grow or make use of nature to generate the best health and greatest potential.

See, disregard of how one think or belive or model the system. The bottom line question is do we understand our own characteristics. As a human, we share same characteristics in breathing, mental, physical. and we also has special characteristics which varies to make us unique or particular.

Now, to talk about "internal", I rather use the word Wholesome or Holistic, we need to investigate what is our human common characteristics in breathing, mental, physical.... so, it doesn't matter if it is in Chinese model, indian model, or Western model.
The bottom line is to understand as much as possible. Because the general goal is to be able to response in "a point of contact" and " strengthern the physical body." with ease.


So, as I always comment, about go back to be basic. One needs to do that. Having a diploma in TCM or Yoga or certificate in Chan is not good enough. The final analisis is do one really know what is going on?

Get a sash and learn the SLT/SNT is not good enough. The final analisis is do one has the capability to sense and scan and issueing power with ease? The set is the tool for sense, scan, and issue power. Thus, IMHO, I never belive in footwork in SLT or advance..... Advance is do one has the capability to scan/sense/track/issuing with ease. NO sifu can sell this to one disregard if it is Yik Kam or Ng Mui or Wong Wah Bo... None. To scan/sense one needs to work on scan/sense to issuing power one needs to work on Issuing power, ofcorse, structure involve, spiral motion involve, using Yee to alignt force vectors involve, scanning both oneself and environment involve...... lots of things.
Thus, I recomend Andrew and Hendricks, mind and breathing platform. That way, nothing can go real wrong.

There is a saying in Chan that " until one inquiry through all the red dust (worldly matters) , only then "it" shows that one time."

See, the reason lots of people like to go to famus sifu or even study WCK is because they want short cut.
Like a religion, most wants God or Buddha to help one because One is A VIP and indoor student.....
Too Bad in the world of advance, there is no short cut and not God or Buddha or Sifu can do things for one. ONe has to pay the price of sweating.
Sure, if one is lucky enough to find a sifu or friend who can point out one's particular weakness. That is great and help. But the routh, one has to search and travell by one own.

Saying this above, people migh get mad at me. But then that is just my opinion. I can be wrong. I might be right. opinion is opinion, one has to find out for themself what is the truth and face it.

In addition, when one shows a posture, one's kungfu shown and cannot hide. Why is that? because after one scan one's body for thousand of time, when one see other's post, one "sees" right away what is what.

So, if you ask me about the path to holistic: there are three basic among many.

1, mind/body/breathing should active similar to ocean surf, tide washing the beach. this is the snake.

2, Constantly scanning and correct the flow or structure while practicing. Do not use force and do not let it rigid. this is the real centering.

3, the beauty of using TCM medirian as a tool to guide training is that a, the system was design with this model. b, it serves as a map to explore the high way and dirt road of one's body.
This is the map.

There is nothing special. EVerything is by nature. Just some will never believe. and some even against it before know what is what.


------------------------------------------

Phoenix always rise from Ashes, and only from ashes.
Only when it holisticly burn all of itself without reserve. it will raise stronger and more powerfull everytime. Harry Potter---- The order of the Pheonix, june 20 2003

[PaulH]

Thanks again, Hendrix. A thousand year of solitude waiting for the moment of rebirth is only natural if you are a Phoenix bird. Yet "Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot ,change their minds cannot change anything. - George Bernard Shaw", I may heed the wailing surfs and make that first fateful footstep on your beautiful shore.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Andrew N sez:
Unfortunately such WC elders as WSL did not benefit from the purported longevity benefits of "WC qigong". No disrespect intended, but the fact remains he left us sooner than he should have despite the allegedly awesome health benefits of the style he practised.

NTC sez:
By the way, just a side note... if you knew Wong Shun Leung, you will know that he smoked and drank a lot.

Paul H:"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot ,change their minds cannot change anything. - George Bernard Shaw",
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments-

The importance of proper breathing is less in contention than
questions of details. Good wing chun IMO involves good breathing
- everything has to be coordinated and IMO it is built into careful
and good slt- I know we mean different things by that. I have been alert to the importance of it and the need for coordination of internal and external elemnets from day one. Still working on it.

I have been a student of breathing for a long time- there are other forms of breathing for specific development but wing chun's emphasis on natural breathing IMO is much better than karate,
boxing and sanchin- for health.

Working in fighting ability and health are not mutually exclusive.
Some folks who dont exclude using wc for health can fight too.
But the person who is only a fighter would not be a good source for understanding the full picture.

Lots of variables involved-at the borders of martial competence and health: genetics, misuse of the body or mind at work and play, living in a dangerous area, what one ingests, pollution, poisons etc.

As NTC pointed out Andrew N's citing of WSL is not the best of examples. When I met him twice in the US--- a real exciting event for me- getting to roll with him. But I "knew" that he did not have many years left- given his habits. Some details of his US visit excluded,Unfortunately there are wing chun sifu-s(not mine) who are immoderate in smoking , drinking and other things, Their chigung gives them some leeway but the clock ticks away...ominously for them.
There are others I know (fighters too)- including me humble self- for whom the non fighting aspects of wing chun and wing chun compatible training has been good for health....by measurable indicators. A little stiff in one knee, a little sign of love of good food
but other things--bp, blood chemistry, angiogram results---
etc-
super shape in spite of a challenging life- and hey---as per much of debates- I can spar with or without gloves when i choose to.
Not a bad wing chun life or just life.

Paul H...thanks for the quote from GBS one of my favorite people-

Joy

[ntc]

Excellent comments, Yuan.

By the way, for anyone who cares, Qi Gong is practiced at various levels. Most martial artists, including your typical WC person, practices at the first or basic health level. This level helps to promote the free flow of Qi along the meridians in the body. To go to a deeper level, one would need to seek out a Qi Gong master who is able to guide the development because, at the deeper levels, there is peril when Qi Gong is practiced incorrectly. It is at this deep level that one is able to manipulate his/her Qi directly, even out of the body and directed at a target. This type of Qi Gong is primarily used in TCM healing in China. However, to get to this level of expertise, sacrifices are also involved, including diet, certain types/amounts of daily meditation, abstinence from sex, etc., so not everyone will be able to get involved, even if the person is willing... the circumstances might not allow it. On the peril side, guidance is critical because if the wrong meridians are manipulated (eg, Qi going out when it was supposed to go in) and opened, side effects will happen, such as paralysis, mental retardation, etc. I know this for a fact, because a childhood friend of mine at one point became obssessed with advanced Qi Gong, and proceeded to practice this aggressively, but not with the best of guidance. One day, his mind just went on him, and to this day he is still living in a sanatorium... never regained his sanity.

[anerlich]

Anerlich: regarding your comment questioning the value and legitimacy of Qi gong, the proof and evidence of the art is well documented, and even published by professional medical associations in the US. You just have to go search for them and read up on them.

I've done plenty of reading on these subjects, thank you. I doubt that you are in a position to lecture me on them.

A site you may have missed in your research is www.quackwatch.com, which takes a rather different view on the subject from your sources, apparently.

I spent many years sekking out all the knowledge I could on TCM, qigong, meditation, Ch'an and related subjects .... coming to the conclusion that most of it is a load of hooey and that real enlightenment comes from stripping layers away, not binding yourself inside a structure of arcane knowledge and practices.

But then, if we are not careful, we always seek out info to support our own desires and biases. Yep, even me, even you.


One day, his mind just went on him, and to this day he is still living in a sanatorium... never regained his sanity.

And this stuff is meant to be good for you, huh? Sounds best left alone to me.

Sounds like if you don't follow the qigong regimen with your WC, you die early like WSL. If you do follow qigong, you end up in sheltered workshops or padded rooms.

Like eating fugu - if it's not cooked properly by a "master chef", you die an agonizing death. But it tastes pretty ordinary anyway, so why bother?

And how many WC "masters" have this "knowledge" in any case?

In any case, all of this stuff where "you have to seek out a master or you will be in eternal peril" to me is best left for the plots of Hong Kong cinema and other fiction, or the advertising of qigong "masters" - if you do this stuff on your own, they don't get the bucks or the adulation, do they?

Think I'll concentrate on boxing and BJJ. Helio's still rolling at 90, after all.

All of this is anecdotal anyway. I'm still waiting for proof.

[ntc]

Anerich:

You are a character.... I agree with your comment --> it would be best for you to stick to boxing and BJJ.

[ntc]

Oh, yes, and Anerich, by the way, to answer your question, very, very few (if any) WC masters have the advanced Qi Gong knowledge. I don't either. In fact, not just WC, but very few martial artists have been able to get to this level of practice anywhere in the world, including China. You'll probably push this aside as well, but that's fine... just wanted to answer your question. And good luck with your boxing and bjj !

[ntc]

Another thing, Anerich, just for your info:

I quote you: "I've done plenty of reading on these subjects, thank you. I doubt that you are in a position to lecture me on them."

******

My credentials in Qi Gong, TCM, etc.... I practice Chinese medicine, acupuncture, moxibustion, bonesetting, dit da for a living, and have been doing so for over twenty years. I was trained in these arts in China. Over the past thirty years, TCM has grown immensely here in the US, which I am sure you know since you have done so much research, which is awesome. There is a lot to read about TCM in general, and at least, to me, it is a fascinating subject. I am sorry that you are not able to share this view, and please don't misinterpret my postings... I have no interest nor desire to lecture you or anyone else... I am merely sharing some ideas / knowledge that I have with peole who are interested.

[Phenix]

NTC,

Use Double bong to activate Heart Meridians out ward. Let the 3 ying flow from the chest ...under the armpit ......
What do you think?

HaHaha, SLT has it all.:D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
NTC,

Use Double bong to activate Heart Meridians out ward. Let the 3 ying flow from the chest ...under the armpit ......
What do you think?


you must be an emotional person, your heart goes out for the Bongs. :D



HaHaha, SLT has it all.:D

you must be drinking too much 3 in one instant Maxwell coffee. Double cheese bonger with fries is combo 2 (CK) ;).

[anerlich]

"You'll probably push this aside as well"

(Sound of heavy object being moved aside, like the burning urn in the Shaolin Temple ... oh wait no! Wing Chun didn't come from there!)

"but that's fine... just wanted to answer your question."

The question was rhetorical, but we agree on your answer, viz. that a lot of WCers talk "authoratitively" about this subject without knowing zip about it.

"And good luck with your boxing and bjj !"

Oh, thanks. You're too kind.


I am sorry that you are not able to share this view, and please don't misinterpret my postings... I have no interest nor desire to lecture you or anyone else

Don't feel sorry for me, I don't need it.

Misinterpretation is a two way street.

And good luck with your business, but I won't ever be seeking a consultation with you or any other TCM practitioner.

A lot of people study astrology too, and some give professional consultations over decades. Some people swear by that, too. Others think it's a bunch of crap.

I am sorry if you are not able to share this view.

I feel the malevolent psycic dark Qi being focused on my apostatic soul ... and it feels remarkablly like nothing at all.

[anerlich]

Sayonara. Maybe we can all meet when our various health regimens make us centenarians, and play wheelchair chicken in the old peoples' home to see who wins .... until then it remains a matter of theorising and conjecture.

[ntc]

Phenix:

Double bong, eh? Interesting, but that would make sense since the heart meridian essentially runs from the armpit along the inside of the arm to the fingers. But just curious, why the double bong versus the double tan? And other than meridians, how does a certain technique correlate with the five elements? I still haven't been able to make the connection there. I am a bit slow, but I will get there soon ! :)

[ntc]

Anerlich:

I quote you:

"Don't feel sorry for me, I don't need it."

--> I was not feeling sorry for you. No need there at all... don't think that there will be a need anytime.

"And good luck with your business, but I won't ever be seeking a consultation with you or any other TCM practitioner."

--> On behalf of myself and other TCM practitioners, thank you for not visiting with us so that we can focus our time and effort on others who need our help. And, by the way, thank you for your well wishes.

"Sayonara. Maybe we can all meet when our various health regimens make us centenarians, and play wheelchair chicken in the old peoples' home to see who wins .... until then it remains a matter of theorising and conjecture."

--> Sayonara to you as well, and best wishes for everything successful and smooth along the way.

[John Weiland]

We all benefit in one way or another from Anerlich's proper skepticism IMO. Gotta keep everyone honest. Beyond the concept of Qi as lifeforce, I have yet to be convinced about the rest, but am interested as Anerlich obviously has been over time.

YYLee,

Thanks for the attachments.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by ntc
Phenix:

Double bong, eh? Interesting, but that would make sense since the heart meridian essentially runs from the armpit along the inside of the arm to the fingers. But just curious, why the double bong versus the double tan? And other than meridians, how does a certain technique correlate with the five elements? I still haven't been able to make the connection there. I am a bit slow, but I will get there soon ! :)


Double Tan is more for Lung meridian ...since the Lung meridian lead. it is a Yin withing Yang twist..... so it is different then full yin

...But if you lock your elbow rigidly , then stagnation...

So it is different.
each Jing is different.
Thus, it can be adaptive and flow when meet resistance.....

The ancestors design the set with medirians model...
One can feel this all.....


"true or not true, false is not false
miss a milli meter loss a thousand miles..."
Thus, it was name The essence training of Details or SLT.
Nothing advance, just knowing all the small details....
No secret..but sweat and scanning....

May be I seduce you to trap you into Yik Kam's writing...watch out hahahaha

ready to fight SARS via Tan and Bong?:D

[yuanfen]

Comments om Hendrik's post in brackets:

Double Tan is more for Lung meridian ...since the Lung meridian lead. it is a Yin withing Yang twist..... so it is different then full yin

((Tan definitely is more yang))

...But if you lock your elbow rigidly , then stagnation...

((Shouldnt be locking anything rigidly))


One can feel this all.....

((i think so too- but it takes time and correct practice for development and waking up))




ready to fight SARS via Tan and Bong?


((SARS is scared! Just talking about bong and tan seems to have resulted in some abatement!!! Causality is a strange thing))

[Phenix]

Hey Joy,


With contantly holding the tensing lower abdoment and lean back in YJKYM, I doubt the blood/oxigen flow while breathing will go down lower then stomach level effortlessly.

Thus, IMHO,
There is no way this type of structure get one very far to strenghten one's body and internal organ.

Why so? because of the holding and the tensing and the join between body and tigh are so rigid ,
that it tensing the lower abdoment and pubic area unnecessarily... thus, make a resistance for blood/oxigen circulation flow.

the blood flow in the low abdoment is about 4 x or more? compare to the upper chest.
So, disregard of how one tries to practice slowly, by natural of this rigid structure,
the blood flow is not going to get better when one tense up the lower abdoment.

So this end up the heart pumping faster.... Trying to compensate for the not enough flow due to the constant tensing of the lower abdoment.


Thus, if this condition prolong... , heart will be not healty. because they always has to work harder and we can continous on and on with the liver and kidney for good circulation toxic filtering.

The set is suppose to strengthen one's body, if not strengthen the body certainly it must not Weaken the body, even if one think WCK is only for fighting not for health.



See, we don't even has to use the TCM model. just use the Blood flow model. we can see, something is very very wrong and not natural at all. IMHO

with claming the knee and elbow rigid, I suspect this type of top secret up is suppose to teach to the Qing only. So, whoever learn it die faster and safe the energy of the Ming Warrior to kill them
:D :D

[yuanfen]

Hendrik- I dont lean back and I don't tense my abdomen!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik- I dont lean back and I don't tense my abdomen!

because you are Indian and not Qing and not learn it from the Ming Warrior of Shao LIn?

OK take a tally. How many in this forum clamp the knees, and elbow to the center line, and tensing and tug the butt up?...:D

[[Censored]]

I don't clamp the knees together, but let them sink together. I keep the elbow slightly inside the ribcage. I don't lean back, or tug the butt up, but I do let my pelvis and ankles cooperate.

[reneritchie]

The way I learned, the knees close to 1-fist distance, the elbows move along the meridian line, the spine is straight, and there is much relaxation...

[ntc]

Phenix:

I concur with Yuan. The practitioner does not lean back, nor stiffen the abdomen in the horse stance. This impedes the flow of Qi throughout the body, especially along the Qi meridians along the spine. In addition, the whole body is kept in a state of relaxation... the torso/abdomen muscles are not tensed up so that the Qi can be stored in the dan tian area. The breathing is slow, regular, deep and normal, so that the maximum processing and distributing of Qi can be done. But, however, there are schools that lean back (some very dramatically), and some do tense the torso muscles. According to the Wing Chun kuen kuit, this is not supposed to be correct, and so based on the WC principles and guidelines, proper stance training should not involve any leaning back or torso tensing.

[ntc]

Rene:

I see you share my view about the relaxation and the straight spine point as well.

[ntc]

A matter of fact.... a lot of beginning students start off the horse stance correctly - straight spine and relaxed. However, as their muscle groups get fatigued and cannot support the structure, their bodies revert to a leaning back position, and often times the torso tenses up in a supportive way as well. If the teacher is not observant or aware of this, and fails to correct the student, this eventually becomes more than a habit and actually becomes part of the beginning student's structure. Inevitably, this student starts practising WC (especially the SLT) in a leaned back posture.

[Phil Redmond]

ntc, yuanfen,
I have learned from at least 3 of Yip Man's students. None of them taught to lean back. Leaning back would violate the principle of center of balance. Also, I know that if you lean back during a fight you'll be in trouble especially under pressure. So why do it in SLT? The spine should be straight according to a Chiropractor I just asked.

[ntc]

Phil:

Definitely a good point, especially when used in a fight. If you lean back, your natural energy/force of gravity is no longer rooting downwards but going backwards. More than likely, if you hit someone while leaning backwards, the repulsive energy from the contact will send you potentially reeling backwards and likely off balance.

Also, like yourself, I have not observed any of Yip Man's students (and I have met quite a few of them) perform any of the forms in a leaned back position. As you pointed out, "Leaning back would violate the principle of center of balance".

Now there is always the possibility that clothing would render a mirage of what is happening. The person might actually have the spine straight, but a lot of times, depending on the shirt worn, it could give the false impression that the person is leaning backwards. Now, if this is the case and the observer is not cautious, it is very likely that the observer will start believing that the practitioner is leaning backwards, and so proceed to practice doing so themselves.

[ntc]

By the way, it would be great to hear from those practitioners who practices SLT in a leaning posture and see if they can shed some light into why this is done. Any out there?

[reneritchie]

Lots of people observably lean back, including students of Yip Man. That's the problem with just observing, especially when observing advanced (in both experience and years) people: something they've reached a point where they could pretty much stand on their head and still do amazingly well. Luckily, we don't have to rely on just what we observe, but what we learn (hear and experience) as part of our daily training.

[Phil Redmond]

Speaking of similarities in all WC. I saw your Sifu's Toronto school website. I noticed some of the stances look like what I would call a side neutral stance. Without the politics WC is WC, IMO.
Also, I just got hold of some old pictures from HK. Your Sifu,Ho Kam Ming is in one of them I think.
Here's the link. Look near the bottom of Sifu Cheung's profile.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/history.asp#cheung

[WCis4me]

Hi ntc,

A matter of fact.... a lot of beginning students start off the horse stance correctly - straight spine and relaxed. However, as their muscle groups get fatigued and cannot support the structure, their bodies revert to a leaning back position, and often times the torso tenses up in a supportive way as well.
Don't I know that to be the truth......whew. I always start off well and then the next thing I know I am getting tired as I do form after form, and then my Sifu is on me like a fly on sugar.....'back straight, don't lean, stop tensing your shoulders, breathe'....etc......lol.
Seems like the longer we go the faster I hear him correcting my posture. While I get frustrated with myself, I am thankful for my Sifu being so dilligent and patient with me, and keeping my focus on important things such as my structure. He is also very good about explaining why he has to keep at me and why it is so important. He is also really good about noticing when I was struggling with something and when I start to get it he compliments me. The nagging keeps me going out of determination when I am getting lazy, and the compliments keep me going out of appreciation and respect when I am overcoming an obstacle, so I avoid getting lazy again.
I notice as well that when I remain in the proper structure everything else comes more easy. Biggest point so far that I noticed that in was switching neutral stances with punches and the footwork. Wrong (lazy) structure I could not get my coordination or focus on my footwork, right structure I was able to move through the moves fluidly and it didn't hurt as much, nor do I tire as easily. It was a time of revelation for me.

Regards,
Vicky

[Phenix]

NTC,

Tug in the butt and lean back slightly with the body weight transfer slightly more to sole from the ball of the feet while exhaling is proper and nature.

o

Why?
because at exhale, the leg 3 yang medirian travel from head down to sole. and the hand 3 yings medirian travel from chest to fingers.

In the physical and blood flow or diaphramatic breathing model.
one is using the lower abdoment muscle to "lead out" (slightly press out the breathing) to promote deep breathing.

So, leaning and tug in the butt and pull the anus are not wrong. It is one of the phase of the cycle.

one can use this transfer to the ball of feet or sole... to fajing..... either way can issue. so then the breathing the body weight the yee the medirians are one.


in additional, Clamping is suppose to feel like while riding a horse, the inner tigh "feeling and tracking" the house. not trying to choke the horse to dead. :D


IMHO, my point is it is the time to shift paradigm from static to dynamic lively way.

Holding the static of this sifu or that GM and thinking it will be doing magic someday is not going to go too far.
debating which static phase is proper is absurd either. Need to understand WHY, not just take it with faith.
Need to be able to repeat ..... IMHO

YJKYM is dynamic. NOt static...... it has to do alots with feeling, scanning, and tracking.


Remember you bring up the Yin Yang concept.
Let's exploit it to different phases.... it is not BS. There are a few different diamention we can exploit. hahahaha :D

Again, why do I care about the TCM medirian, breathing..... those are just tools. Once one master it, those are no longer important.
But, if one doesn't see the different paradigm then one needs all the models to be able to Grasp and identified them..... those are languages. As it says in CMA classical, one who don't know the medirians will never have advance cultivation. It is a map.



Joy,
Remember this song? is it about opium or SLT? :D

"Wildflowers,
My father told me not to go near them.
He said he feard them always
and he told me that they carreid him away.....


Now I cannot break away.
Thier sweet bougquet diasppers
Like the vapor in the desert.
So take a warning, son.
Windflowers, ancient windflowers,
Their beauty captures every young dreamer who
lingers near them.. "

Silk in the wind. hahahaha

That is the beauty of SLT and the obsession. :D



Rene,

Welcome to the paradigm of transformation. but some one has to burn into ashes and reborn.:
the order of Pheonix --- Harry potter

[yuanfen]

Hendrik-- my hometown Calcutta(now Kolkata) was a major shpping dock for the opium journey to Canton thanks to the Brits.

A field of poppies can look dangerously beautiful....
but I prefer Ng Mui and the plum blossom.!!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik-- my hometown Calcutta(now Kolkata) was a major shpping dock for the opium journey to Canton thanks to the Brits.

A field of poppies can look dangerously beautiful....
but I prefer Ng Mui and the plum blossom.!!


Joy,

It is said that " without going through a season of penetrating bone chil "cold" winter, how will one smeal the Plum blossom's fragrance. "

As for opium, just lay there take what was feed into the mind and start smoking and dreaming.

Ha hahahaaha.

[Phil Redmond]

Tug in the butt and lean back slightly with the body weight transfer slightly more to sole from the ball of the feet while exhaling is proper and nature.
Hendrik,
Could I ask from what lineage did you learn to lean?

[ntc]

Rene:

I quote you: "Lots of people observably lean back, including students of Yip Man. That's the problem with just observing, especially when observing advanced (in both experience and years) people: something they've reached a point where they could pretty much stand on their head and still do amazingly well. Luckily, we don't have to rely on just what we observe, but what we learn (hear and experience) as part of our daily training."

****

Definitely am with you on your comment, especially about how we should not rely on observation alone. But unforunately... too many people out there do....

[ntc]

Phil:

I quote you: "Speaking of similarities in all WC. I saw your Sifu's Toronto school website. I noticed some of the stances look like what I would call a side neutral stance. Without the politics WC is WC, IMO.
Also, I just got hold of some old pictures from HK. Your Sifu,Ho Kam Ming is in one of them I think.
Here's the link. Look near the bottom of Sifu Cheung's profile.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/history.asp#cheung"

*****

Thanks for the link... I took a look, and it does look like Sifu Ho when he was way, way young... long time ago. Can't believe he is 80 now (if my calculations are correct...time flies !!!) We are having a mega reunion in the fall for Sifu Ho, and it will be great to see my brothers and sisters from all over the US and Canada get together... I have not seen some of them in ages!

By the way, which photo are you referring to regarding the neutral stance? Can you please give me a link so that I can go take a look and give my comment? Thanks.

[ntc]

Wc4isme:

It was good to read your post.... you obviously have a good sifu. And you are doing a good job recognizing your own posture, your own areas of challenges, and moving to rectify when possible. Those are signs of a good student... not just someone who obeys and follows. After all, WC has always been considered a scientific art. Sifu Ho used to tell us all the time not to teach people under 13 years old.... he would tell us that they would not have the ability to do the analysis that is required of WC. It is really amazing how much time is needed outside of the school to analyze the scientific aspects of the art, the physics theory of energy and force, the Chinese concept of Yin and Yang, the warring theory of fight strategy, the philosophies and applications of the WC proverbs, etc. etc. etc.

Kudos to your teacher for me, and give yourself for a pat on the back for being a good student!

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by ntc
Wc4isme:

It was good to read your post.... you obviously have a good sifu. And you are doing a good job recognizing your own posture, your own areas of challenges, and moving to rectify when possible. Those are signs of a good student... not just someone who obeys and follows. After all, WC has always been considered a scientific art. Sifu Ho used to tell us all the time not to teach people under 13 years old.... he would tell us that they would not have the ability to do the analysis that is required of WC. It is really amazing how much time is needed outside of the school to analyze the scientific aspects of the art, the physics theory of energy and force, the Chinese concept of Yin and Yang, the warring theory of fight strategy, the philosophies and applications of the WC proverbs, etc. etc. etc.

Kudos to your teacher for me, and give yourself for a pat on the back for being a good student!
Why thank you yet again ntc. All the kudos do need to go to my teacher though, Sifu Phil Redmond. I feel truly fortunate to have him as my teacher and for the very good WC people/influences he has brought into my life. He keeps me on track which is not an easy thing to do lol.

Thank you for the compliments,
Vicky

[ntc]

Phenix:

Don't necessary agree entirely with your posting.

"Tug in the butt and lean back slightly with the body weight transfer slightly more to sole from the ball of the feet while exhaling is proper and nature. "

--> the center of gravity is along the axis of center of the body; weight is in the lower part of the body below the hip... this allows the upper body to relax and for the entire structure to sink. The weight sinks rooted to the ground by the WHOLE foot maintaining constant contact with the ground (weight evenly distributed from sole to toe). The structure stays motionless with the exception of the SLT hand moves. If, according to your quote, you are transfering weight from ball to sole (even slightly) while exhaling, two things happen... 1. you will look like a slightly vibrating pendulum going back and forth as you are exhaling, and 2. wheras you may have a point regarding the Qi flow along the meridians, the constant back/forth shifting of the meridian will prevent the body from consistent relaxed state as the body needs to constant adjust to this shift in center of gravity.... will impact the development of the "walking of the elbow" and other major things covered by the SLT moves. So I can't agree with you there.

"In the physical and blood flow or diaphramatic breathing model.
one is using the lower abdoment muscle to "lead out" (slightly press out the breathing) to promote deep breathing."

--> Can't agree with this either. The air flows in through the lungs (which are in a state of relaxation) directly into the Dan Tiean, which with the abdomen muscles relaxed, provides the physical reservoir space for the the storage of the Qi. Collapsing of the stomach muscles minimizes this space, and so minimizes the storage of Qi, and hence impedes the Qi flow in the body. Also, a major outflow of Qi is via the MingMen point at the lower-middle back of the body at the spine, and this is why the back needs to be straight and relaxed. Leaning back or leaning forward will reduce the circumferential area of the meridian, especially the Du meridian to which this point belongs, which will, again, impede on Qi flow.

"in additional, Clamping is suppose to feel like while riding a horse, the inner tigh "feeling and tracking" the house. not trying to choke the horse to dead."

--> One definitely does not choke the horse to death, I agree with you. But the energy direction is downwards as the practitioner sinks his horse, and the knees' inward position along with the sinking of the weight makes it feel like one is RIDING/GRABBING ONTO a horse. Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma, as most of you know, directly translates into "Chinese Two Character (illustrating the position of the feet) Clinging Onto A (royal/grand) Horse". The royal/grand here has no significance... Chinese always like to make something very grandeur rather than common.

"Holding the static of this sifu or that GM and thinking it will be doing magic someday is not going to go too far.
debating which static phase is proper is absurd either. Need to understand WHY, not just take it with faith."

--> Agree with you... I don't think anyone thus far has said anything about following blindly. People have just been saying what they have been OBSERVING. OBSERVATION and ACTUAL ADAPTATION are two totally separate things.

And, by the way, the lyrics ""Wildflowers,
My father told me not to go near them.
He said he feard them always
and he told me that they carreid him away.....


Now I cannot break away.
Thier sweet bougquet diasppers
Like the vapor in the desert.
So take a warning, son.
Windflowers, ancient windflowers,
Their beauty captures every young dreamer who
lingers near them.. "


are from the song "Windflowers" by Seals and Crofts. I don't think it is about either opium or salt, but about the behaviour of windflowers scattering in the wind. Don't think it had anything to do with opium, and definitely don't think it has anything to do with SLT.

[ntc]

WC4isme:

You are welcome, and good luck in your training. I also quote you:

"He keeps me on track which is not an easy thing to do lol."

In which case, REALLY good luck to your Sifu Phil... (hehehehehehe.... just kidding, of course)

[yuanfen]

NTC- I disagree with Hendrik also on this post regarding structure.
I think sigung is almost 80. You know best.

Phil- awiting NTC's comment. I dont think that Master Ho is in that picture with your sifu.

And I know his site- and also how he stands- its different from TWC
in his standing...fairly square bodied.

[ntc]

Yuan:

My calculation is based on the last big celebration I was at for Sifu Ho which also had a ton of my brothers and sisters. It was a 2-part dinner (one in Macau and one in Hong Kong), and it was held in December, 1990 for his 66th birthday. By western calendar this would be his 80th year. Unfortunately, he is very traditional and goes by the lunar calendar year, and so he is either 79, 80, or 81... guess I'll find out.

I quote you: "I dont think that Master Ho is in that picture with your sifu."

--> You could be right, but it is hard to tell from that picture. The boy's face certainly does not resemble Sifu Ho too much. Plus, I remember him being a bit stockier... the person in the picture seems skinnier... but then it is difficult to gauge from a picture. When I see Sifu Ho, I will ask him. Actually, if I remember correctly, you are one of Augstine's students, correct? If so, he would likely be able to tell you as he was with Sifu Ho around the time the pic was taken (most likely a few years later), and might recognize him.

[Phenix]

NTC,

Let see, my opinion, for fun. Don't get carry away. pure fun--HS

--> weight is in the lower part of the body below the hip... this allows the upper body to relax and for the entire structure to sink. --NTC


This is an assumption. Sound great but it is false in reality. It cause problem.

If this is true, then the body has been broken into two pices. The relax upper body and the solid Sink lower body.

This will cause the lower body to be stagnated and destroy the mobility. Thus, it is imobility. the bottom line it will destroy the Wholesome of the totallity of the body structure.


There is a kuit in classical CMA,
"... Young Chien (k1) is no root and the waist is not the Master ..... one hand spread out become thousand hand. .."
That is the proof of my arquement.

Advance Zhang Zhuang people or TaiJi or .... will comment breaking into two pice as above is a sickness. The body become dully heavy. -HS


"The structure stays motionless with the exception of the SLT hand moves. "--NTC


THis is fault again. if this is true then the whole body cannot align its force vector not to mention when it was impacted later from outside force. The structure stays motionless means the totality integrity has been broken and localized. --HS




"If, according to your quote, you are transfering weight from ball to sole (even slightly) while exhaling, two things happen... 1. you will look like a slightly vibrating pendulum going back and forth as you are exhaling, and 2. wheras you may have a point regarding the Qi flow along the meridians, the constant back/forth shifting of the meridian will prevent the body from consistent relaxed state as the body needs to constant adjust to this shift in center of gravity.... " --NTC

Nothing stand still in the cosmos.
only dead people lay still.
Making use of all the momentum without resisting them disregard of how minute they are is the key of leading and flowing.

breathing create momentum, waving of fingers create momentum... to hold still all innertial is like stepping the car's break all the time while driving.
Make use of the innertial momentum is the key. not stopping it.
if one don't know how to deal with it to get the totallity at low momentum. at high momentum and acceleration. one will be broken into piece.

Not to mention, one needs to learn to deal with external inject momentum. If one constantly "breakiing one's car" one will not be able to make use the condition, or any condition to accelerate.
Fajing is about acceleration. if the body is stood still one will have a hard time to accelerate.


Thus in I ching it said, the Bagua Oscilating.....
Relax as silk float in the wind. But not as a pice of wood burried in the ground. Flow like the Mecury ...

The beauty lays in the silence within the motion. It is not to make the world stop to attain silence. But, while the whole world in chaos, one is in silence. but silence doesn't mean everything stop moving.

Without capability of finding the silence within the motion, one will not be able to defeat fast with slow...
as it says in kuen kuit, Using silence to subdue motion.
That will not be able to be implemented. Not to mention, it will be really difficult to accelerate oneself to disolve , say, a round horse kick, if one not make use of the nature of oscilation or in comming force.... -HS



--> Can't agree with this either. The air flows in through the lungs (which are in a state of relaxation) directly into the Dan Tiean, which with the abdomen muscles relaxed, provides the physical reservoir space for the the storage of the Qi. --ntc


That is great theory, but if the lower abdoment doesn't open up, the flow in the lower abdoment is little. I suggest you look into Gays Hendricks research on how Baby beathing in mothers body before it was born.

IMHO, most people's breathing in YJKYM is not lower then the stomach. One can force it but not going down to the Qi Chieh pressure point area. due to stress and tension in the lower back and inner tight. and thier spine position is not proper dynamicly. --HS



"Collapsing of the stomach muscles minimizes this space, and so minimizes the storage of Qi, and hence impedes the Qi flow in the body."


Collapsing of the stomach and pull up the anus and private area lock the Hui Yin, thus the qi rotate up via Ren Mai. Thus, one recycle the qi instead of let it flow leak out. --HS




HAHAHAHA. just for fun. don't get carry away.
Just like Wah San Loon Kim, or discusssing the sword at Hua San.
I might be drunk hahaha.

As in Chinese, I presume you are Chinese,

ALL great discussion has the potential (hei Sai) of pointing out the fault of the previous people and raise the bar so high that expecting no one from the future will surpased.


I like the rylics of the new TV show--- Sieh Diu

A horse rushing forward in the vast field joing the heaven.
Shooting the Virture in the wide sky one stretching the strong bow,
Heaven and earth all capture within one's heart.

Ten Thousand miles of Windy and Sandy routh
Haven't seen a singer Hero in the path.
In time of Big even
Open up One's heart , broad. --HS



are from the song "Windflowers" by Seals and Crofts. I don't think it is about either opium or salt, but about the behaviour of windflowers scattering in the wind. Don't think it had anything to do with opium, and definitely don't think it has anything to do with SLT. ----- NTC


It is about Obsession. can be not a thing. But anything. :D

[yuanfen]

Hendrik-
Too long a post to answer in detail right now.
The kind of sinking that NTC refers to- does NOT divide the body into two parts. Body unity is important and maintained.
Without breaking up the body or tensing there are alternative ways bseides taiji conceptions to maintain the coordination of
dynamics, still ness in the midst of motion, stability and mobility
and many other things. WC is for health but also for effective self defense.

[[Censored]]

IIRC, I have seen some Moy Yat students leaning back. Whether they were told to do so, I don't know.

When the arm moves (in SLT or anytime), the CoG moves. Your choices are to compensate with body movement, compensate with tension, or topple over. No other choice that I know of. Of course, tension can be a kind of movement, and in some WC, it's the only kind. :eek:

If you are relaxed, not only will your lungs and surrounding tissue move, but the bones will move also. And when the spine goes, everything goes. So unless you are doing your SLT within the span of one breath, there's no use in pretending a static position.

"SLT: top half=yin, bottom half=yang" This is a perfect example of why we don't need to talk about yin and yang. It's just close enough to the truth, to be a tempting substitute for the actual truth. Or if you prefer a hi-tech analogy: you can't run productivity software on a 1-bit processor.

1, you will look like a slightly vibrating pendulum going back and forth as you are exhaling

Need not be perceptible to outside eyes.

2. wheras you may have a point regarding the Qi flow along the meridians, the constant back/forth shifting of the meridian will prevent the body from consistent relaxed state as the body needs to constant adjust to this shift in center of gravity....

The level of relaxation you are referring to cannot be achieved while the heart and lungs are busy, cannot be acheived in SLT. So it it a non-issue, IMO. :)

[WCis4me]

Hi ntc,

the center of gravity is along the axis of center of the body; weight is in the lower part of the body below the hip... this allows the upper body to relax and for the entire structure to sink. The weight sinks rooted to the ground by the WHOLE foot maintaining constant contact with the ground (weight evenly distributed from sole to toe). The structure stays motionless with the exception of the SLT hand moves.
That is EXACTLY how it was explained to me when I didn't keep the structure in various ways.

Clinging Onto A (royal/grand) Horse
Not trying to read more into it than I should, but this caught my eye. I used to show and train horses in english styles, was a groom/exercise person for race horses, and break/train/rodeo with western styles. There is a difference in the way you ride different types of horses, the difference lies in the training and purpose of the horse. There are some key differences between western and english style riding. How you mount, your posture, the placement of the hands etc. Posting when a horse is in a trot is a good example of this (when the rider stands up (slightly) and sits down in the saddle according to the horses gait). Western riders tend to use thier knees in a tighter clamp against the horse for control, english show riders use a softer squeeze and utilize the bridle/reins and feet for more control(they use one hand for each rein and keep them more tightly at the nape of the horses neck). In comparision to the 'royal horse' thought, it would seem that, if it had some intentional meaning it could be quite significant, as it would mean that the 'pinch' would not be as tight as it would be a 'show' type of horse. That is why side saddle was effecient means of riding for historical european woman as they did not rely on the knees for controlling the horse, instead they used the bridle/reins (not to mention wearing skirts got in the way so needing the legs to ride would not work).

Just thought I would share that as it caught my eye when you mentioned the type of horse.

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma, as most of you know, directly translates into "Chinese Two Character (illustrating the position of the feet) Clinging Onto A (royal/grand) Horse".
I am just a little confused though as I thought it translated into 'two character pinching goat' and have heard that quite a bit on here. Also, isn't the character for the # 2 something like this l l but with straight lines? If so then why do so many people turn their toes so far inward? Shouldn't they be parrallel like the actual character for the # 2?

Also I have looked at the picture of Sifu Ho when he was in his 30s and the one from 1954 that Phil provided a link to side by side and I can see some similarity. The skinnier person is directly left (from our view) of Yip Man, the person denoted as being Ho Kam Ming is the far left (from our view) on the end in the front row. Is that the one you were looking at?

Just questions and thoughts, thanks for your patience and any responses.

Regards,
Vicky

[WCis4me]

Hi Joy,

And I know his site- and also how he stands- its different from TWC
I am not sure you are talking about the same site. You are saying Sifu Ho's site? This is one of his endorsed schools sites, school that he supervises, (not many of them from what I understand on his notice on the site) and I believe the pictures Phil was discussing with ntc (if it was the same ones he pointed out to me when we were veiwing the site together) are of his student Cuu long and private students of Ho Kam Ming in Canada. I could be wrong but I think those are the ones Phil is referring to. I would post a link but it is a private site (you cannot link to it from a search engine) and I would feel awkward doing so, sorry.

ntc,
I have sent them via pm for you to review.

Regards,
Vicky

[WCis4me]

Hi ntc,

In which case, REALLY good luck to your Sifu Phil... (hehehehehehe.... just kidding, of course)
LOL!
No kidding really! He needs all the help he can get when it comes to keeping me on track. I am a difficult student at times. Not that you would EVER get that impression from my posts ;) :D
I am just fortunate that his soul possesses a good sense of humor and a greater degree of patience.

Take care,
Regards,
Vicky

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik-
Too long a post to answer in detail right now.
The kind of sinking that NTC refers to- does NOT divide the body into two parts. Body unity is important and maintained.
Without breaking up the body or tensing there are alternative ...

Joy,


I understood what NTC saying.

But, exactly as he descriped it that is what I mean. it is two pices. even thought it seems like it is not two pices it is. That is accord to the detail such as the hands move and body don't move and weight in lower body as he describe.

On the other hand, if it is a TCM medirian based, then one has to follow the nature of TCM medirian based all the way. Since it is about nature. and the advance TCM medirian way is one uses the medirian such as the Ying Chiao and Yang Chiao group to oscilate and bouncing....

With NTC type of structure, one will have a difficult time to make use of other's force within close range and always has to stop things ....... or send the power to ground... there and then is when other has chance to nail one....

Well, I can be wrong... I can be right... just a discussion right?:D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by [Censored]


"SLT: top half=yin, bottom half=yang" This is a perfect example of why we don't need to talk about yin and yang. It's just close enough to the truth, to be a tempting substitute for the actual truth. Or if you prefer a hi-tech analogy: you can't run productivity software on a 1-bit processor.

[


Top half =Yin, bottom half=yang.

Certainly, one can create one's own topology and clasification. However, this doesn't make sense at all for TCM.

If you claim it is the Truth. Then tell us by what model?

Why is the bottom half =yang? please explain.


Your analogy of 1 bit processor doesnt seem to do the job.
since 1 bit still include 0 and 1 state.
someone can write a code with 1 bit based software.

However,
you can have all computer and software you want but if no energy to power it nothing works.

I am talking about energy. Beyond the shape.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by [Censored]
The level of relaxation you are referring to cannot be achieved while the heart and lungs are busy, cannot be acheived in SLT. So it it a non-issue, IMO. :)

True, and it is a fact.

Actually, that "stepping break" type of relax is not relax at all. Because it always stepping at the break.

With deeper breathing the motion is even increasing because it is a deep diphramatic breathing. And how much volume are moving inside one's body ?

IF one try to compensate this by tensing the lower body or rooting....to hold the body still. that is stepping the break.

My problem with most people when they used Yin Yang Theory is that they don't Yin Yang all the way to explain things. The same with physical model, one cannot ignore the diphram and pretend nothing happen in one case but totally claiming the breathing go down to Dan Tien.

Ok, so the breathing go down to Dan Tien, how much volume of air is inhale and how much the chest and abdoment expanded? Can we pretend it is still and generate no momentum?

[Phil Redmond]

"Phil- awiting NTC's comment. I dont think that Master Ho is in that picture with your sifu."

I'm just going by what the caption read. Since you said you don't "think" it is neither one of us can be sure.

"And I know his site- and also how he stands- its different from TWC in his standing...fairly square bodied."

What I saw was not square bodied. It was as close to a TWC side neutral stance as I've seen in most other WC. Have you seen the pictures on the Ho Kam Ming Toronto school site?

[yuanfen]

Phil-
I not only know the site, I know some of the people on the site.

I dont know which caption you speak of- because there are different ones.

You mistake some developmental things for fighting stances.
In chum kiu - the bong and wu on the side while moving forward is for certain developmental purposes.

Watch Cuu Longs square bodied straight ahead two handed lop sao.

[Phil Redmond]

"You mistake some developmental things for fighting stances.
In chum kiu -"

What an assumption

"the bong and wu on the side while moving forward is for certain developmental purposes."

Just like it is in TWC. The stance/"developmental thing", or what ever you want to call it looks like a TWC side neutral stance/"developmental thing"
Aren't all stances developmental and functional?

"Watch Cuu Longs square bodied straight ahead two handed lop sao."

Doesn't all WC have square bodies drills? I don't think this is worth arguing about. You can't change what I saw.

[WCis4me]

Hi Joy,

I have seen the pictures, other people, including one person that is in the pictures have compared and we all agree they are very similar. You are the only one who has disagreed with it so far.
A stance is a stance (whatever the application the form is the same) IMO and it looks the same. Why when people are trying to find common bonds (something twc is never accused of doing) do you work so fervently to find differences. It is like you have no interest in unity in any way. Or that you just enjoy the argument too much.
I mean no disrespect by this but when people talk about and criticize dissention and then work to create it, it is hypocritical. Why not look for common bonds instead of differences? Do you always see your cup half empty?

Vicky

[yuanfen]

Phil sez:
You can't change what I saw.
------------------------------------
of course not.

[yuanfen]

Vicky-
calling a motion as I saw it is not a slam any more than Phil calling the motion as he saw it. We saw different things.

[yylee]

Guys :)

mind if I ask what Toronto web site or photos are being discussed here?

[yuanfen]

http://www.hokamming.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The site maintained for Master Ho Kam Ming who was a close student of Ip Man for many years and saw him till the end.

[yylee]

thanks Joy!

[WCis4me]

Hi Joy,

Originally posted by yuanfen
Vicky-
calling a motion as I saw it is not a slam any more than Phil calling the motion as he saw it. We saw different things.
Well Phil couldn't be slamming as he was saying it was the same (a good thing), that would be an agreement not disagreement between lineages.


Since Joy has decided to share that site I guess it would be only fair to give you the comparision photo.

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images...ide_neutral.gif
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp

These are the links. The first one is a still photo. The second is to the system page, if you click on the chum Kiu video link you will see the bong and the footwork more clearly and be able to agree or disagree in relation to the chum kiu on the site Joy provided. I am sure Phil can provide more comparable things that he saw on the site.

Regards
Vicky

[anerlich]

This thread veered into the twilight zone for a while, but it's good to see it hs realigned itself with the forum's true purpose, squabbling about lineage.

[yuanfen]

Vicky-
Please note what Phil actually said:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I noticed some of the stances look like what I would call a side neutral stance.
-----------------------------------------------
Note "some of the stances". I asked for clarification- which was not clear and I went to the site and checked. I couldnt find any
"stances" that were "side neutral" ( a term that I really dont use- its Phil's term usage as above). In discussions- meanings hinge upon common terms- apparently we are using quite different terms.
In most Ip Man lines' chum kiu there is a section where one moves forward but there is a bong wu sequence which is to the side. Calling that a stance is using the term loosely. There are all kinds of motions in forms- a "freeze" of a motion IMO is not a stance. Thus - there is a final dipping motion in biu jee- a freeze of it does not get me to a "stance". A difference in terminologies-
is not slamming. A stance to me is a pre-action posture- which is
not "dead". If we substitute "stance" with "motions" sure we have some motions to the side. of course there are similarities in Ip man systems- but lots of variations in terminology and details.

Discussing them is not slamming.. I hope that we are strong enogh asa community to discuss details.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik-
I think that you are misinterpreting some things,

I dont think that NTC regards the lower body as "separate"
ontologically. The unity of the body is greatly emphasized.
There are different structural alternatives in maximizing energy flow. The proof is in the pudding- in a stance similar to probably NTCs- there is no cutoff of energy flow.
Obviously the Cho family stance is outside of my personal experience- but check points in alignmnets ina stance(ygkym) are just that check points for getting started- towards understanding and developing the energy flow.

[Phil Redmond]

Stance, phase, semantics. We have a stance, phase that looks just like the pics on the HKM site. I say this because it helps "me" realize WC is above lineage and that there are commonalities.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik-
I think that you are misinterpreting some things,

I dont think that NTC regards the lower body as "separate"
ontologically. The unity of the body is greatly emphasized.
There are different structural alternatives in maximizing energy flow. The proof is in the pudding- in a stance similar to probably NTCs- there is no cutoff of energy flow.
Obviously the Cho family stance is outside of my personal experience- but check points in alignmnets ina stance(ygkym) are just that check points for getting started- towards understanding and developing the energy flow.


Hi Joy,

For sake of discussion, please don't take the following as anything more then that.

To be honest, no. I do not misinterpreting. serious.
And it has nothing to do with family also.
It has to do with Human structure.

Say, If I qoute the Chang San Feng's TaiJi classic:
It Says " at motion the whole body is in a state of "lite and agile"
see, it says "lite and agile" doesn't say sink. eventhough the common thinking is "rooted or sink" that is commom belive.

Also, it says in the Classical of Chinese Ma, The sage breath with his/her sole. The action of slight shifting of weight to the sole is the phenomenon. If you check people like DR. Ma Li Tang who was called one of the father of modern day Qigung. you will find out about the shifting to the sole.... Look at Ma Li Tang's famous six breath kuit. The slight shifting is there.

If you check on Wang Xiang-Chay's Yee Chuan's Zhan Zhuang or TaiJi's classic about standing post for prequisite of Fajing. That is the way, the body is "lite and agile" not the upper relax and the bottom sinking.


In addition, if you check out Gay HEndricks ( not my another name:D ) research and the way natura breathing, you will find the spine moves. Thus, if the spine moves the weight has to shift.


Moreover, if one stand in YJKYM, the biggest join of our body is the join between the body and tigh. this join doesn't move side way while one is standing in YJKYM. Thus, motion of the diaphramatic breathing and upper body will shift it forward/backward/ sinking/ lifting alittle depend on the condition.


As in Camel riding posture of Kundalini yoga, it also show this type of movements. may be in an amplification way.

Thus, with all study I have done, from past and present, from oriental to the west. I belive the Ancient Chinese are accord with everyone, be it in the east or west. Not to mention about the emei 12 zhuang has all the S shape motion for the spine or cultivation of the Ren and Du medirian.


See, my bottom line is that I don't really care if it is Yik Kam or Cho family or Wong Wah Boh or 12 zhuang or who ever said what. My bottom line is to find what is natural and what is that key to be able for one to step into advance level. Not for myself but for everyone. IMHO, it is not difficult to see, most WCK people doesn't know how to deal or manage the Join between body and tigh. they go extreme to hold it there..... thus, they try to hold on the body, to make the body as one.... which is against the nature in most cases.

And what my finding is, the body is always one if one doesn't force it to what one think is right. So, it is about finding and understanding the rythem and the nature then force it the way "my sifu said"

I appology if any people or GM thinking I am slandering them. What I am doing is to get real deep into the subject. Instead of relay on my sifu or Yik Kam writing. writing is dead. will the writing accord with nature is the key. if it is no use pice of writing , bump it in the garbage. Eventhough I respect ancestors' work. but I will not accept what is not accord to the nature, for that will harm the training of the body. How advance is advance if one stand in YJKYM for 40 or 50years but don't know how to manage the body?

I understand, Open discussion scare the heck out of people. But then, are we ready to face reality? I belive no lineage on earth can over write the law of nature. Every one is right but every one lineage is not perfect. Because it only describe a part of nature and sometimes, distorted due to aging.

Again, I can be dead wrong. But at least I tried to see beyond faith of my sifu said right?

Jut my crazy 2 cent.


By the way, IMHO,
the name YJKYM means the letter two clamping Yang post.
The letter two descripe the shoulder wide shape.
the Clamping the Yang means using the legs Yang medirian and yang side to fold and support the structure.
The detail behind this is that When the toes are pointing slight in the sole point slight outward. Thus, the weight of the body rest to the legs 3 yang medirians side of the leg.
with this structure, the 3 yings side of legs are relax and the 3 yang side are mounting on the ground strong without tensing.

Since the 3 ying side or the inner tigh side are relax, the 3 ying medirian can smoothly flow up to chest. while the 3 yang medirians always carry the flow down. while cultivating the Ren and Du or the cosmic cycle, one can relax or tense slightly the hui yin to lock the qi and let it reverse and travel up the spine Du meridian.

[ntc]

OK... from all the discussions, I feel that we will probably all be in agreement that there are both similarities and differences in our respective WC's. I also feel that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to gauge these similarities/differences (how, what, extent, implications) simply by photos or text discussions.... too much cannot be determined this way (energy flow, tension, technique transition, etc.) I would bet that if we all got together in a room and proceeded to openly share and discuss our respective WC's, we would probably find that there are more similarities than expected.

WC4isme:
- I had a chance to look at the videos in the links you provided. There is definitely quite a bit of difference in the forms in the video versus the forms taught by Sifu Ho, especially in Chum Kiu and Biu Jee. The key differences lie particularly in the angles and the directions of the techniques. It is hard to say what the impact of these differences is. WC is a total system, so one thing depends on another. William Cheung was known back in HK to be a pretty good WC practitioner and full-contact fighter, and I remember Sifu telling me that his WC was well respected. Hence, just from this alone, I would be willing to guess that if sticky hands was done between someone from William Cheung's line and another from some other line, like ours, there would be a lot of similarities in the trapping and the execution.

Also, let's not forget that combat strategy is very personal.... a teacher may favor certain strategies while others favor something else. In addition, some teachers favor some techniques more than others (some love using bong sao, others gan sao, etc.), and so it is possible that through observation and practice, there may be more of an emphasis both in technique type/footwork type/strategy type because of the personal preferences of the teacher.

Phenix:
- It is obvious that, based on the text discussions alone, there are differences and inconsistencies between how you and I practice WC, which is perfectly fine. In fact, it is amusing that you say that based on how I describe my structure, etc., my WC would not work and it would be difficult for power generation, because I actually exactly the same way about you and how you describe yours as well. But this is the fact, you know that your WC works for you, and I know that my WC works for me, so we both must be doing something correctly. When I dissect this a bit further, I have to conclude that it is because of WC being a total system. Yours works when you take everything you do in your system as a whole, and mine is likewise. But it is likely that if you mix some of the breathing, stance turning, etc. principles from your system with some of those from mine (eg. structure, relaxation, etc.), it would likely not work. The same would hold true if I tried to mix my system with yours... it would probably fail as well. A system would only work as a whole, because all the components of a system are mutually dependent, and need to work in a cooperative way via the same systematic basis/approach for the system to work. So, thank you for sharing the foundations of your system. Much appreciated.

Yuan's points are also well taken regarding square shouldered facing. From what I have seen, most WC coming from Yip Man are based on squared shouldered facing. I have noticed some of Yip Man's earlier students (like those from Lok Yiu and Leung Sheung lineages) use more of a forward/backward stance with squared shoulders, versus a left/right stance with squared shoulders. Some of these earlier lineages also seem to practice a stance that appears to lean back a bit. But when you take the stance and the footwork away, it seems like facing squared shoulder (or very close to squared shoulder) is a common denominator for Yip Man Wing Chun.

My final note: I have observed quite a bit of sticky hands done between Yip Man students, as well as their own students. I have to say that as far as footwork is concerned, often times the observer would conclude that the practitioners came from the same teacher, as they were so similar. It was not until they started practicing the forms, that you could tell that some were from varied branches. In general, most of the forms from most of Yip Man's lineages are very similar to each other.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik--
Not to worry. Discussion, elaboration, seeing similarities and differences in positions, disagreements on subjects are bread and butter for me. So no offense taken.

Weaving my reply into your long post is not an efficient way to go.
So let me list my points.

1. being "natural" is indeeda worthy goal in one's martial art.
But I dont think that being natural implies only one possible structure for the body.

2. The warp and woof of life results in different contexts in which we find ourselves- including lying, crawling sitting, standing,walking, running. And the context can vary according to function-eating, sleeping, defending oneself etc. Therfore working with nature involves adjustments to the context involved.

3. The meridian model is important and I respect it. But there is more to it in nature- for health and self preservation- like getting out of the way of a truck- or optimum use of the body- including its bone and joint structure. The key to me is still the challenge of
smooth energy flow in different structures.

4. There is some issue about Chan San Feng's connection with taiji. .."legendary figure"(?) as opposed to the real Chen wan Ting.
And in Chen style there is alternating between light as a feather
and a foot stamping shift.... and there are differences in Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu, Sun postures. BTW I do know some about Ma and the 6 breaths. Of course i have my limits.Human...

5. I do think that those who have experimented with YGKYM-
including myself for myself- not just sifu sez-- find it as suitable alternative structure for circulation to zhang zhuang- though the latter is superb. Since I have had fairly decent adjustment and correction in both zhang zhuang and ygkym I have a sensitive understanding of the differences in the alignments specially in the pelvic region and feet placement. I find both helpful. But ygkym gives a much better martial platform.

6. "Boottom heavy" ygkym is a prelude to learning wing chun "song". ..once learned it results in fast and light movements when needed. Taiji does not have a monopoly on "fajing".


7 I know that lots of wc folks clamp and use muscle in the ygkym-
I dont- there is no forced locking in...the settling of the pelvis is natural

Cheers, Joy

[ntc]

Yuan:

Good post, and you bring up some very good points. For me, these definitely stand out as key points:

"The key to me is still the challenge of
smooth energy flow in different structures."
--> after all, WC is all about structure trapping and sensitivity, and being able to feel what your opponent's next move would be

"I know that lots of wc folks clamp and use muscle in the ygkym-
I dont- there is no forced locking in...the settling of the pelvis is natural"
--> definitely agree with you on that

[[Censored]]

If you claim it is the Truth. Then tell us by what model?
Why is the bottom half =yang? please explain.

It's not my claim. It is the claim of certain Leung Ting descendants.

Your analogy of 1 bit processor doesnt seem to do the job.
since 1 bit still include 0 and 1 state. someone can write a code with 1 bit based software.

How long does it take to communicate something meaningful with 1-bit words? It's not very practical IMO.

Yin/Yang : 1 bit
Five Elements : ~2.3 bits
Ba Gua : 3 bits
Atari : 8 bits
Standard written Chinese : ~12 bits / word ?
Standard written English : ~14 bits / word
Itanium : 64 bits

But this is the fact, you know that your WC works for you, and I know that my WC works for me, so we both must be doing something correctly.

I don't want to do just something correctly, I want to do everything correctly. I just hope I can tolerate the bitterness, to get there from here.

[ntc]

Censored:

"I don't want to do just something correctly, I want to do everything correctly." --> Excellent attitude and goal !

[Phenix]

It's not my claim. It is the claim of certain Leung Ting descendants.--C

Since it is about technical. Don't you want to find out why? instead of just qouting it? --HS



How long does it take to communicate something meaningful with 1-bit words? It's not very practical IMO.


It is very practical in control system with a series interface. In addition, with a speed of Giga hz and DDR communication lots can be done. --HS



Yin/Yang : 1 bit
Five Elements : ~2.3 bits
Ba Gua : 3 bits
Atari : 8 bits
Standard written Chinese : ~12 bits / word ?
Standard written English : ~14 bits / word
Itanium : 64 bits


So how many bit is energy which power up the MPU?

MPU is for processing DATA. We are discussing about Energy and Power generation,
so the binary based doesn't really apply because
remember Energy and power is Analog! :D --HS

[Phenix]

Hi Joy,


Not to worry. Discussion, elaboration, seeing similarities and differences in positions, disagreements on subjects are bread and butter for me. So no offense taken. --J

Great that we can discuss openly. see I can be wrong. so discussion is about exchange ideas... --HS



1. being "natural" is indeeda worthy goal in one's martial art.
But I dont think that being natural implies only one possible structure for the body. ---J

Certainly there is no one possibilities. However, there are some principle one needs to follow. --HS


3. The meridian model is important and I respect it. But there is more to it in nature- for health and self preservation- like getting out of the way of a truck- or optimum use of the body- including its bone and joint structure. The key to me is still the challenge of
smooth energy flow in different structures. -J

Certainly agree, thats why, my discussion qouting from Standford University to China..... HS



4. There is some issue about Chan San Feng's connection with taiji. .."legendary figure"(?) as opposed to the real Chen wan Ting.
And in Chen style there is alternating between light as a feather
and a foot stamping shift.... and there are differences in Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu, Sun postures. BTW I do know some about Ma and the 6 breaths. Of course i have my limits.Human... ---J


Chan exist or not doesn't matter.
The common principle behind the human posture across Chinese Martial art / TCM/ Doaist .../ Taiji/ Yee Chuan...... are the key I see is important. --HS



5. I do think that those who have experimented with YGKYM-
including myself for myself- not just sifu sez-- find it as suitable alternative structure for circulation to zhang zhuang- though the latter is superb. Since I have had fairly decent adjustment and correction in both zhang zhuang and ygkym I have a sensitive understanding of the differences in the alignments specially in the pelvic region and feet placement. I find both helpful. But ygkym gives a much better martial platform. --J

I agree that YGKYM gives a much better martial platform. But we need to state out with very detail and specifically what is the things which make YGKYM superior. Otherwise, we are taking things with blind faith. --HS




6. "Boottom heavy" ygkym is a prelude to learning wing chun "song". ..once learned it results in fast and light movements when needed. Taiji does not have a monopoly on "fajing". --J

I agree with you that Taiji or anyone does not have a monopoly on fajing. Thus, we need to state out how is the YGKYM prepare for FaJing or other application.

The Bottom heavy concept is pointing to the hard bow horse stance practice with using the
PRessing Qi To DAn tien.

Compare with the soft way --- Sinking Qi to DAn tien.
And, sinking Qi to Dan tien doesnot mean sinking weight to feet or knees. Rooting is a mental or Yee projection visualization and not really trying to sink the weigth....

See, I take it as people don't really pay attention here. So, it becomes confusion. HS

[Phenix]

NTC,

--> after all, WC is all about structure trapping and sensitivity, and being able to feel what your opponent's next move would be--- NTC

If we cannot describe what we are doing in detail and specifically with a model such as TCM or Blood/oxigen flow/ diagphram / spine movement, we are in trouble.

See, we cannot blame our western friends about they don't belive in TCM and Yin Yang.. IMHO, if we want to Yin Yang, we need to Yin Yang all the way. If it is TCM then TCM all the way.
Shows the theory behind it and the practical implementation.
To let them examine and make their own decision.

If we only apply the model halfway and the rest ask them to take by faith. That cannot be done, because people will not really appreciate the art.

For me, I will dare to say if one knows how to analize the art once with TCM. Then they can use their own model to analize the way they like. Thus, they will progress and WCK will progress.

It is a modern era. It is no longer the era of gate keeper knows it all. alots of scientific research has been done in the University. So, we all need to take advantage of all new technology to prove or dis prove what was saying in the past. If the new tech can prove that our art and tcm model is very good. that will let everyone appreciate and respect the ancestors more.
Bottom line, WCK is no longer an art of Canton beside the river. It is a universal art belong to all practitioners disregard of nationality.

Saying that will lead to others thinking I am crazy. But, as in Cantonese, by faith, title, and force, people will not really "fook". But just afraid to speak differently.
With reason, honesty, and credibility of reality practicality, people will "fook' from the heart. IMHO

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
Use Double bong to activate Heart Meridians out ward. Let the 3 ying flow from the chest ...under the armpit ......
What do you think?


some people say, the Bong is like a boat floating above a rising tide.

some others say, the Bong arm is like holding onto a sphere that spins under the arm-pit, as the sphere spins the Bong moves.

so, IMHO, both these two descriptions are using "Yi" on the under side of the arm (Yin side). The water underneath the boat, the sphere underneath the arm-pit.

If the "Yi" is on the Yang side of the arm while doing the Bong, shoulder may raise up, causing broken structure or using too much muscle strength to complete the movement.

Of course some may disagree, but this is the way I see the Yin/Yangs of the Bong.

[[Censored]]

It's not my claim. It is the claim of certain Leung Ting descendants.--C
Since it is about technical. Don't you want to find out why? instead of just qouting it? --HS

You misunderstood. I said this description is bad because it is oversimplified.

How long does it take to communicate something meaningful with 1-bit words? It's not very practical IMO.
It is very practical in control system with a series interface. In addition, with a speed of Giga hz and DDR communication lots can be done. --HS

I am using it as a metaphor for an optimal mode of _human_ communication, not some serial control system.

See, I take it as people don't really pay attention here. So, it becomes confusion. HS

Physician, heal thyself! ;)

[Phil Redmond]

"Also, let's not forget that combat strategy is very personal.... a teacher may favor certain strategies while others favor something else. In addition, some teachers favor some techniques more than others (some love using bong sao, others gan sao, etc.),. . . . ."
Sifu Wm. Cheung told me that at one point in his teaching career he tended to teach techniques he personally favored. He said he later realized that practice would limit a student's capabilities. No two people have exactly the same muscular/skeletal structures and we are not all "wired" the same neurologocially.

[yuanfen]

Hi Hendrik(Phenix)...you say:
I agree with you that Taiji or anyone does not have a monopoly on fajing. Thus, we need to state out how is the YGKYM prepare for FaJing or other application.

The Bottom heavy concept is pointing to the hard bow horse stance practice with using the
PRessing Qi To DAn tien.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any Fajing really has to be shown. CXW in Chen style shows it rather than write detailed prose on it.

In wing chun as most threads on kfo show lots of folks are stuck
the more common forms of power development.
Pressing Qi are your words- not mine. Sinking is the better descriptor. And yup- I know the distinction between sinking the knees and sinking the chi. And no- there is a difference between ygkym correctly done and a hard bow atance, a hung gar ygkym
or bow.
But much wing chun discussions easily get plagued by an attention deficit disorder and noise. A gift of laughter is great company.

Yuanfen- rising in another Phoenix with fires and ashes in the state---northward and southward from here.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by [Censored]
[i]

You misunderstood. I said this description is bad because it is oversimplified.




THanks. Understood now.

[ntc]

Phil:

Thanks for sharing that, and I am in agreement with William Cheung. All of us will favor certain techniques over others during application. And I have also seen a lot of teachers place more emphasis on certain techniques over others. However, the good teachers are the ones who will be able to recognize the needs/strengths/weaknesses of each of his students and proceed to adapt his teachings to each of them accordingly. Also, the good teachers will also be able to recognize their own favoring the certain techniques, and will know to be aware of that so that the techniques are not especially emphasized on and forced on their students. Otherwise, that could definitely maximze the risk of limiting the student's skill development.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

No two people have exactly the same muscular/skeletal structures and we are not all "wired" the same neurologocially.


IMHO,
That is true to a certain degree. Forever, most most of us have 2 hands, 1 heart , 12 medirians ( TCM model).

So, the general has to be clearly state before the specific and particular.

Without the general information. such as one has to take different vitamins since everyone is different. But, If we don't drink water or we try to cure thirst of water with vitamins.. it doesn't work.

So, what I am focus on is the general or the first order before the second order.

Now, I find when in came to the first order discussion. Alots of time, instead of taking about water, oxigen. It becomes discussion of brand name such as.... Aqua, Napavalley spring, Piere water...... we talk about brand and why the brand is the brand instead of Water is H2O.....

[Phenix]

Hi Joy,

"Any Fajing really has to be shown. CXW in Chen style shows it rather than write detailed prose on it."--J

I disagree with you here. See, if you read Chen Ching's Taiji Classic. The Jing path was shown. The forward and reverse reel were shown and all written down to very detail. If you read Damo's YJJ classic similarly. From the kuit, Detail was recorded. --HS



"Pressing Qi are your words- not mine. Sinking is the better descriptor. " -- J


Yes, indeed, Pressing Qi is mine word. Because there are Pressing Qi and Sinking Qi to Dantien. They are two differentings. When Pressing one feel solid, heavy.....powerfull. When sinking one feel natural, relax, and weightless, but not any weight or force..... These also can be hind in Chinese classic and writings....
So, I am just qouting the different of PRessing and Sinking. --HS


-----------------

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee


some people say, the Bong is like a boat floating above a rising tide.

some others say, the Bong arm is like holding onto a sphere that spins under the arm-pit, as the sphere spins the Bong moves.
.............



YY,

"True, is that True?
False, is that False?
Missed a millimeter will lost a thousand miles.

True,
Thus, the Dragon Princess attain Buddhahood in an instant.
False,
Thus,the Monk Lucky star sinking into Hell."

-------------

The Dragon Princess grasp the proper cultivation thus in an instant she raises to great capabilities.

The Monk Lucky Star mistaken the 4th state of Dyna (stillness) as the attainment of 4th level Arahat. Thus, when he was losing his power of stillness he blame the Buddha on lying to him that the 4th level Arahat will never lost power.
With this he lost his own core believe thus fell into suffering and fear since he is losing confident on his practiced.

is it a 4th state of Dyna or 4th level Arahat? Thus, buddhism has so many sutras and sastras just to prevent people from doing the same with Monk Lucky Star

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix


is it a 4th state of Dyna or 4th level Arahat? Thus, buddhism has so many sutras and sastras just to prevent people from doing the same with Monk Lucky Star

"It (tide, sphere)" is a stepping stone towards that something, not the real "It".

Never read the Dyna or Arahat stuff, but I can only tell you that neither the sphere nor the tide are "IT". The two saying helps pave the way, but when one looks further into it one knows that this is not it.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik- i have met people who have read the classics and can't fajing. In Damo- one can enter by correct practice. BTW- I was referring to CXW's writings. He "shows".

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik- i have met people who have read the classics and can't fajing. In Damo- one can enter by correct practice. BTW- I was referring to CXW's writings. He "shows".


Joy,

I agree.

The same with people who sit in YJKYM for decade and still has two seperate part.:D


:cool:

[yuanfen]

Hendrik-
Yes. the key to doing well is overcoming dualism in either stance.