The Science behind Shaolin

[David Jamieson]

Here on teh Canadian Discovery channel, Jay Ingram has been doing a series with a physics prof in order to understand how it is that the Shaolin do what they do.

How it works is, they show one of the many feats that are shown by the Shaolin and then head back to the lab for a demonstration on how it worked from a physics perspective.

The neat thing is that these guys give the Shaolin their props for some of these feats, but at the same time show that it is often times simple physics that judges the outcome.

Anyway, I've caught about 5 or 6 of these shows now and find them to be quite interesting. Anyone else see them?

cheers

[Former castleva]

No,but sounds like an educated approach.

Maybe many would be more excited about and rather cling to something else but physics perspective sounds good.

[ZIM]

I haven't watched them yet, but I think you can do so here (http://exn.ca/dailyplanet/)

They're listed on the sidebar...it brings up a video. :)

[OdderMensch]

Good suff

The wheel of life show they talk about as a bit cheesy IMHO but kinda fun to watch.

the best part was when they brought up a dozen people from the adiance and tryed to get them o do a simple long-fist manuver :D

Alway good for a laugh.

I want to get ahold of that machine he guy hit with the staff.

[Sho]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
the best part was when they brought up a dozen people from the adiance and tryed to get them o do a simple long-fist manuver :DI'd love to see it. :D Is it included in one of the video clips on the website?

[David Jamieson]

Zim- yup, that's the place!
They have episode 1-3 of the Shaolin there.

Todays show covered rock breaking. It talked about how the Shaolin would have very hard hands from their training, but at the same time there are properties of the rocks they use and the angle at which they are struck which shows the ol cause and effect in action.

it's good stuff.

That site has tons of great stuff to by the way. If one is a bit of a science nut. :D

cheers

[Merryprankster]

It is NOT physics and good body mechanics.

It is CHI!

[Christopher M]

So did any of that have any relation to martial arts, or even qigong?

[rogue]

But it's superior Canadian Chi! Only Americans depend upon physics and body mechanics!:p

[Chang Style Novice]

I wonder if the difference between good body mechanics and chi (in a martial context) is largely pronunciation?

[Chang Style Novice]

PS - Merry, the songs of the humpback whale spirits are telling me your cetaceopsychic aura flow is misaligned. I suggest seeing a phlogistonic chiropractor asap.

[Sho]

Well, they're still using qigong to protect their body from getting hurt. I think the purpose of those shows was to prove the audience that what the monks were doing was nothing supernatural.

[David Jamieson]

Yes, it's not supernatural, but not just any shmuck off the street can do this stuff, simple physics or not.

If you understand the basics physics stuff, you know that the angles must be correct, timing, all of that has to be good. There is no haphazard way of getting onto a spear and spinning yourself.

It would be foolish to try it without understanding completely what is involved. The potential for getting hurt is pretty good without correct training. Tricks or not.

cheers

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Sho
Well, they're still using qigong to protect their body from getting hurt.

This wasn't the conclusion made in the show. Do you disagree with it?


Originally posted by Kung Lek
If you understand the basics physics stuff, you know that the angles must be correct, timing, all of that has to be good... The potential for getting hurt is pretty good without correct training.

For sure. But "correct training" does not "qigong" or "martial art" make. There's an awful lot of training involved in David Copperfield's show as well, but no one thinks it has anything to do with qigong or martial arts.

[David Jamieson]

Well, they're still using qigong to protect their body from getting hurt.

Technically, they are benefitting from the effects of qigong practice actually imo.

I.E The maintainance of proper balance and breathing, the direction of muscle tension, the location of muscle tension, and an awareness of the object they are working with, in one case, a spear.

For the bed of nails trick, I would say this one is a novice level thing and actually requires no skill to do except for the strength to hold weight on top of you.

For breaking demonstration and having pressure applied to your throat, sternum, head etc, you would need some training in qigong breathing techniques.

cheers

[Christopher M]

Well, you've admitted the bed of nails thing could be done without training. And since the iron tongue demo was "one-up'd" by the physicist, I think we can agree to exclude that as something requiring qigong as well.

Both the iron head and the pole breaking demos relied entirely on the principles of a lever, as demonstrated in the "sweet spot" video. Do they require training? Sure; the iron head one requires you to push rather than strike the concrete to avoid jarring your brain and/or neck. The pole breaking requires to you reliably hit in the right spot. Neither of these are qigong, nor would take more than a couple days of training to get.

The five spear lift is no more than the bed of nails principle redone. Fewer "nails", but much wider, and placed better structurally.

The iron palm takes a bit more training, to learn how to strike properly and conditiong your hands. But again, neither of this is qigong; and you can see much more amazing (albeit less dramatically presented) breaking feats on TSN some weekends.

The only two that I found truly remarkably were the two-finger handstand and single halberd. I was also amazed at the physicist's explanation of the single halberd - but I still wouldn't try it myself. As for the two-finger handstand, I thought the physicist came up quite short in explaining it. At least the handstand, and possibly the single halberd (I say possibly because I've seen stage magicians do it, but I can't say for sure they didn't have some kind of armor on) required an awful lot of gong. But qigong? What does it have to do with qigong?

And what does it have to do with martial arts? Everything making these work here are the very things that won't be present in a martial situation.

[Former castleva]

You´re preaching to the choir in a way,but may it be beneficial and I´ll offer my props.

[David Jamieson]

The only two that I found truly remarkably were the two-finger handstand and single halberd.

You would then be interested in seeing the materials on Hai Deng.
Do a search on that name. There is some film of him from when he went back to Shaolin.

He had one disciple and was the one who gave back the skill to the Shaolin. Except, his was one finger.

By the way, I would expect that your average joe would not be able to propely do the 5 spear trick without a full and complete understanding.

yes, it's physics, and the physics of it dictate that there will be x result. That doesn't mean that everyone is capable of doing the simple physics applied.

cheers

[Serpent]

A good punch is simple physics. But it takes a long time to learn how to do a really good punch.

[Christopher M]

For sure.

What I would object to, following the analogy, would be someone claiming that that punching skill is an example of superlative piano playing.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Christopher M
For sure.

What I would object to, following the analogy, would be someone claiming that that punching skill is an example of superlative piano playing.

Or maybe good violin playing? Sound like anyone we know Serpent? ;) :D

[Serpent]

Not quite sure I understand your point.

(BTW, I believe that chi is more than physics or good mechanics, but for the sake of the discussion...)

[Christopher M]

No one's saying this stuff, by nature of being physics, has no learning or training associated with it.

What people may have a problem with is calling this stuff qigong or martial arts.

That said, as demoed on the video clips, many of these demos don't have any learning or training associated with them.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe


Or maybe good violin playing? Sound like anyone we know Serpent? ;) :D

:D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Christopher M
No one's saying this stuff, by nature of being physics, has no learning or training associated with it.

What people may have a problem with is calling this stuff qigong or martial arts.

That said, as demoed on the video clips, many of these demos don't have any learning or training associated with them.

Chris, point taken.

However, while there may be no actual training necessary, perhaps someone schooled in qigong could do these things repeatedly without injury or repercussion while the untrained might not be able to?

[Christopher M]

Anything's possible.

There just doesn't seem to be any reason to think that's what's going on here.

[Merryprankster]

A good punch is simple physics. But it takes a long time to learn how to do a really good punch.

Define long.

FWIW, I agree with Chris M. These demonstrations don't show any abilities to tap into anything beyond normal physics. You can stand on a sharp sword in bare feet....just don't slide them, etc...

[ZIM]

Is there a requirement that qiqong not obey the laws of physics to be valid as qiqong? Curious.

its a circus act, sure, but a pretty good one anyway.

BTW, found the entirety here. (http://exn.ca/Stories/2003/06/09/51.asp)

[Merryprankster]

ZIM, you misunderstand. IMO if it can be explained as a circus trick, then there's nothing special about it. It doesn't demonstrate ANYTHING to me beyond practice of a specific trick and some natural aptitude.

I don't mean that it need be supernatural. Just that we don't have to wander around talking about special training for this and that and what it does or doesn't demonstrate when it CLEARLY just demonstrates that somebody used some basic physics to their advantage as they trained to do a specific trick.

[ZIM]

Understood, MP- i was wondering if this is a good general rule [as it were] for judging validity. After all, some think that even such demonstrations as 'empty force' or light body skill is amenable to explanations from physics. So, the question gets begged once again... :confused:

Still, i'm agreeing that these particular demos may not illustrate all that much. I'd be truly dumbfounded to see light-body stuff tho...that i want to see. Unfortunately, i'd bet an acrobat would come up and spoil the whole thing for me...:p

[Former castleva]

Some,maybe many do have the appetite for deluding themselves to creating anomalies that are not there.

[Shaolin-Do]

And others tend to place things on a pedestal (sp? its still early) and not want to believe its not really "supernatural".

[David Jamieson]

Personally, I have never considered Chi as supernatural.
I hold to the view that it is as natural as the nose on ones face.

I could never understand those who attribute magical powers to Chi Cultivation. Instead, I believe that Breath work improves and corrects bad habits that you accumulate in life. It is to return to the state of being that you were in as a child, but in the form of an adult. Think of the advantages! No back pain! No breathing problems, no wasted energy, etc etc.

As an aside, for anyone of those demonstrations, they would fall apart rapidly with the application of the "short sharp shock" as opposed to the long steady push that they do employ in pretty much all cases, with the exception of the rock breaking. I would be thoroughly impressed with someone who could slowly push there hand through a stone as opposed to a sharp percussion.

Now that would be supernatural because it doesn't fit into a physics model. The amount of pressure and force would be beyond the capabilities of a human to do it when the stone is of a given density.

The same goes for someone jumping up and onto those spears quickly. The balancing act and carefulness are reflective that there is a physics trick involved.

cheers

[Chang Style Novice]

> hold to the view that it is as natural as the nose on ones face

...assuming we aren't talking about Michael Jackson here.:D

[David Jamieson]

lol@csn
:D

cheers

[GeneChing]

I've only had the time to look at the iron hand portion, but the physics take reminds me of the article written by our copy editor Gary Shockley in our Iron Skills issue Mar Apr 2003 (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200115.html).

As for that iron hand break, just as an aside, that's not a Shaolin Monk, but it's the father of one, or a former one, at least. The break is by Zhang Jian Shu, father of Zhang Li Peng (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144) (formerly Shi Xingpeng.) Zhnag did that break for me years ago when he was living in the Wushuguan complex. We had been drinking as he was doing some dit da on me and some fellow Ameican students, and he just hauled off and started breaking rocks, chipping them like a knife through butter. It was one of the most impressive iron palm demos I've ever seen.

[Shaolin-Do]

"We had been drinking as he was doing some dit da on me "

:confused:

Gene, please explain this, Im new to practicing Iron palm.

-SD

[norther practitioner]

A good punch is simple physics. But it takes a long time to learn how to do a really good punch.

exactly...

:D

dit da... bone setting... tradtional chinese medicine....
If I'm thinking along the right avenues I think this is what he means...:D .


Focusing your energy to have proper physics = good chi...

[Former castleva]

Chickery.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=349

[GeneChing]

Zhang Jian Shu is well known at Shaolin for his dit da skills - bone setting, like np said. It's a valuable talent at Shaolin, since everyone is getting hurt a lot. Any wise practitioner dials into a good affordable dit dat zhang as soon as they begin intensive training.

Zhang Sr. was mixing up some medicine with Chinese wine. I had drank a few beers with some classmates prior to our evening visit so had a good buzz going. One of the classmates had purchased Wing Lam's Iron Palm videos and knew that I worked on those, so he was asking me about it. As soon as Zhang figured out we were talking about iron palm, he ran out a got some rocks and started smashing them, right on his living room floor. It was quite a treat. That is what I love about Shaolin - if you just hang out and pay attention, you're bound to witness something mindblowing.

Zhang is not a very big man, but that hand, that hand...