Tae Kwon do sucks!

[red5angel]

Or does it? I don't know a whole lot about it except that they got a lot of crap from TMA and of course MMA guys ;) Is this art really that bad? I sthere good TKD?

Oddly I have only had three experiences with it, the first a korean freind of mine beat a guy about 80lbs heavier and about 3 feet taller. The second, a woman freind of mine used it to good effect defending herself at a party from some unwanted attention. The third I sparred a girl who was a blackbelt, but she had never seen wing hcun and had a hard time dealing with what I was giving her, although she got in some good shots.

[Shaolin-Do]

Im a 1st Dan blackbelt in ITF TKD... I dunno dude... Its pretty crap. I dont remember a lot of it, I hated the forms, and it feels like there is no point to them. Its very rigid, doesnt flow very well. I sparred a 2nd dan blackbelt chick I know who just got back from military, and played w/her like a toy. Its better than knowing nothing, to an extent, but in the same perspective it could f*ck you by thinking you are a bad ass. But its been covered before, more than the style its the training and the person. Some people are just natural bad asses, no matter what style they know.

[red5angel]

What is it you think makes it suck? Who did you learn from? Do you think you could toy with the 2nd dan because you were stronger or larger?

[Former castleva]

A glimpse from the past.
How much attention you can (I did) get if you ask,and a comprehensive answer. (?)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1412

[Shaolin-Do]

Toying with the 2nd dan, was yes, mostly because Im quite a bit bigger,stronger quicker, ect.
TKD just... I dunno. Its very rigid, instead of redirection of momentum, most the time they seek to stop it. I learned from a man named Stan Singleton, was like 3rd in nation for heavy weight ITF TKD...
Im sure there are people who are good at fighting in TKD, but it wasnt TKD that made them a good fighter.

[red5angel]

Thanks FC I will go through and read the thread now.

Shaolin-do - do you think the rigidity disappears, or is supposed to anyway, later on? I found that in my old karate class, although students were taught rigid and exaggerated movements, the instrcutors always said and showed, that karate is as smooth and as graceful as anything else, but you have to train your body first.

[Shaolin-Do]

Ive seen good Karate 1 time.
I have seen good TKD no times.
I am going to lunch.
I will be back in an hour or so.
:)
Peaceout!
SD

[Shuul Vis]

I actually got my start in tae kwon do (ugh). I was in it for about 2 years and here is what i got from it. Great flexibility and decent kicking. I say decent and not great because the type of kicks they use and the targets they shoot for are unrealistic. Also it was sport oriented and not very street smart.

In sparring, i could hold my own if not defeat the highest ranking black belts in the class by the first or second month that i was there. The only one that ever game me trouble even in the slightest was the teacher's son who has fought in tournaments all over the world, particularly in Israel of all places. I left because i got tired of getting yelled at by the teacher for kicking his students in the legs even though it was very effective. Tae kwon do is fine for what is in this country, a sport that resembles, and can in some ways be applied as, a martial art. In korea where it finds its origins it may be different but not in the U.S.

[Badger]

TKD is bad because it has become a watered down, marketable , fun for the whole family, one in every shopping center, McDojo type thing.

Not all TKD is bad. I have a blackbelt in TKD although I don't fight like a TKD stylist.



Badger

[Surferdude]

TKD in korea is really good but here in America it sucks!!!:( :D

[Suntzu]

Back when i studied TKD... it wasn't bad... looking back it was very similar to the KF i studied... in terms of the way it was taught to me... we had forms... 2-man drills and sparring... we worked on our hands... def and off... we worked the he\\ out of our kicks (big surprise)... granted this was not Olympic style slap-happy TKD... i still pull some of the old tricks out of the bag every now and again... the hiding of footwork that they pushed comes in handy more time than not...

but... i haven't stuck my head in a TKD school since than... so i'm sure things have changed...

[old jong]

Originally posted by red5angel
she had never seen wing hcun

...She still never seen Wing Chun!...;) Anyway, I don't know what is the problem with TKD in the USA. It is not bad at all here in Quebec. I have a few friends who are various degrees of Black Belt and they all kick hard enough to break an arm if the guy tries to block.They move fast and they never stop attacking.I have also seen a TKD guy break about 8 inches of wood with a punch,so...Maybe the mac dojang syndrome asn't reach my region yet?...;)

[PHILBERT]

Stupid English teacher. I was typing up in class today and she told me to stop. Was typing a reply here.

I know a guy that goes to my college. Don't know him, know him, but spoken to him etc. He has been doing TKD for 14 years. I was in the weight room one day and saw him do something, while talking to his friends. Had no idea what it was, it was a hand technique and I thought "Tai Chi?" cause how he moved his body while doing it. I asked him and he said "Tae Kwon Do." We got talking, never sparred with him though. In fact hardly spoken to him since then. Im sure he can woops my butt though, unless I kick him in the knee caps.

[Shaolin-Do]

The only thing I give credit to TKD for, is kicks. They do have good fast kicks, but after watching a couple of MMA fights w/TKD involved.... I need not go further into explanation. :)

[PHILBERT]

No, even there kicks suck. Not as bad as there hands, footwork or blocks though. When I was in my Kung Fu class, I through a roundhouse TKD style at a classmate as fast as I could. He easily deflected it and with a simple move could have messed up my ankle.

I see ONE good thing with TKD. It can help people get into shape. Thats about the only thing I find good with it. And it gives little kids self confidence, after all, 4th graders who bully other kids tend not to do leg sweeps or rear chokes and arm bars or triangle chokes. Except a Gracie kid. A kid with TKD can have the confidence to confront and woop that bully's ass and make him his *****. :D

[Brad]

I used to know of a good traditional TKD place, but last time I saw them the quality seemed to have taken a major hit(sold out I guess). My dad's school used to spar full contact, no pads, regularly and *gasp* were taught to keep their hands up! :D They also were strongly discouraged from participating in sport, though my dad did win fairly easily the one time he tried it.
TKD itself is ok, but it seems quality TKD schools are increasingly hard to find. Part of the problem is probably the limitations of their sparring format. It's like if the rules for competitive jujitsu fights were limited to only two or three holds...

[dezhen2001]

ive seen good and bad tkd... i used to compete knockdown/full contact and point stuff with other styles and regularly got smacked by some tkd guys. My gf is a 2nd dan tkd and can kick real hard and has fast footwork... she drops her hands though :( But more often than not her footwork is fast enough to stop me getting close. She is also real accurate with her kicks.

I train too much hard qigong though i think? - my parries/blocks hurt her :(:cool: and shes not used to my wing chun as well so its kinda fun to spar...

dawood

[Serpent]

Blocks should hurt. What's the point in just blocking when you can strike at the same time?

;)

[sweaty_dog]

It depends where you learn. There are some TKD places that teach throws and all kindsof good stuff. Maybe not very many though. I recall a woman in my TKD class asking once "What happens if I get in this position? (under the mount)" The instructor ummed and ahhed and just told her not to get there in the first place! He was only a stand in for the real teacher, but still, that's pretty bad. Bear in mind this guy probably knew ten variations of the back jumping hook kick!

[Yung Apprentice]

I took Tkd for two and a half years. it's a good MA for little kids, or someone not familiar with MA. It taught me good felxibilty, and some cool kicks that will never be usefull for actual real life comabt. I do, however, remember a couple hand techs that I will always remember, because I know for sure they can inflict some major damage, and bring someoen down in a desperate situation. But the place I studied at, was 80% Olympic, 20% traditional.

Traditional probably has as much use as a non commercialized Karate style. But to find one, is rare. I know of a lot of Tkd places that blend in hapkido,don't know how good they are. And don't know how well they blend, since TKD is rigid, and hapkido is very flowy.

[rogue]

OK all for all intents and purposes the vast majority of current TKD is a sport that falls somewhere between boxing and figure skating. It's a sport in the same way as boxing, archery, fencing, BJJ, muay thai, wrestling, judo and savate to name a few are. All follow a set of rules for how they fight and all willingly trade weakness in certain areas to specialize in others.

What makes TKD effective IMO is not completness as fighting art but that at certain levels the practitioners become well trained atheletes with an ingrained toolset that can be used to defend themselves. Even the more traditional TKD kwon work this way.
Outside of wanting to be the most practiced art in the world TKD has a problem with deciding what it wants to be. What does good TKD look like? Depends on you definition of TKD.



No, even there kicks suck. Not as bad as there hands, footwork or blocks though. When I was in my Kung Fu class, I through a roundhouse TKD style at a classmate as fast as I could. He easily deflected it and with a simple move could have messed up my ankle. Hey Philbert, ever think maybe it was you who sucked?:D :p

[Vapour]

I'm suprised no one yet mentioned it. They blatantly lies about its origin.

Many senior masters of TKD as well as its official body (WTF and ITF) claim that taekwon do trace it's origin to 2000 years of Korean history and Takeyon while, on the other hand, they *know* that they were practicing Shotokan kata.

Read this link and you learn all you need to know why TKD has bad rep.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6540

[rogue]

Gen. Choi readily admitted to TKDs shotokan heritage as did many others. But there has been a rewritting of history over the last 40 years.

[Stacey]

simplicity, distribution.

Mcdonalds or TKD.

[Vapour]

A question to any TKD practioner.

TKD shifted it's emphasis from hand technique of karate to kick. Is there any martial justification to such shift? Or is this shift purely due to sportification of the art. In TKD tournament, all I see is contenstant standing with one leg and trying to keep other away with foot.

[PHILBERT]

I know I suck, I haven't done TKD in over 2 years so my roundhouse kicks suck. The guy who did the move too practices Savate (traditional, not sport) and showed me some good kicks afterwards.

[Yung Apprentice]

I went to a Kung Fu school (Jkd/Lama Pai Crane) for a month. (lost my job, and don't have the money for it right now) But in one months time, I new about as much about combat, if not more, then two and a half years of TKD.

[TigerJaw]

I've already admitted to doing TKD in another thread so I guess I'm out of the dojang kit locker now.

I do ITF TKD and my instructor was and is a student of Rhee Ki Ha. He being a pioneering Grandmaster. I think he's the only one left but I may be wrong about that, he may just be the only one in the ITF. Or school is, not surprisingly very traditional and my intsructor really can fight. We use our hands and when sparing are allowed to punch to the head so you keep your guard up.

The problem as I see it is the sport aspect dominates, certainly the WTF. Originally, breaking was a big part of the art but I know WTF red belts who can only break with a side kick, which is pretty pathetic for saying they're supposed to be able to do it with side kick, turning kick, reverse turing, knife hand, fist etc. They also can't guard, I've seen them spar with their hands by their side. One trick I've seen, takes advantage of the fact that you can't punch to the back. I sparred with a red belt who turned his back on me. After I'd come in close, punched him in the ribs and kidneys and good six or eight times and done a knife hand to his adams apple, he hid a jumping back kick, told me that all my moves were against the rules and warned me not to let him draw me in. I wouldn't have minded if we weren't supposed to be free sparing.

[Liokault]

I have posted this before but I will post it again.

Here in the UK and in Oxford particulaly I feel that we have very good TKd. The only guy who gives me a run for my money in my class when we sparr is a TKD guy, he is the fastest guy I have ever seen and has been taught full contact TKD in a tough club for 12 years.

This same guy has knocked out several kung fu/san shou guys in full contact fights.

On the down side TKD has left him with tons of lasting injurys.

[Suntzu]

On the down side TKD has left him with tons of lasting injurys. thankfully... i didn't have that problem... most of my injuries are from san shou...

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Liokault
I have posted this before but I will post it again.

Here in the UK and in Oxford particulaly I feel that we have very good TKd. The only guy who gives me a run for my money in my class when we sparr is a TKD guy, he is the fastest guy I have ever seen and has been taught full contact TKD in a tough club for 12 years.

This same guy has knocked out several kung fu/san shou guys in full contact fights.

On the down side TKD has left him with tons of lasting injurys.

It's actually true. In U.K. TKD has none of bad rep you hear in U.S. I'm quite sure there are bad TKD club out there in U.K. as well and they still claim 2000 years of history bull****. Having said it, most clubs I have seen do train hard. My friend took nearly 4-5 years to attain his black belt and last 2 years before attianing his black belt, he had to do his own training daily.

[Liokault]

Suntzu



thankfully... i didn't have that problem... most of my injuries are from san shou...

LOL funnily enough what finaly retired him was dislocating his shoulder in our tai chi class! His last san shou fight saw his shoulder come out repeatedly.

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by Liokault
I have posted this before but I will post it again.

Here in the UK and in Oxford particulaly I feel that we have very good TKd. The only guy who gives me a run for my money in my class when we sparr is a TKD guy, he is the fastest guy I have ever seen and has been taught full contact TKD in a tough club for 12 years.

This same guy has knocked out several kung fu/san shou guys in full contact fights.

On the down side TKD has left him with tons of lasting injurys.

Who's that then? Which federation was he in?

[Ging Mo Fighter]

the first martial art i did was karate, for about 6 months
then i did taekwondo for 2 years
and now ive been doing kungfu for 1 year

taekwondo
pros = excellent range of kicks, good "workout", flexibility, a bit of sparring experience

i can safely say it wasn't a complete system, then again what really qualifies as a complete system?

all in all, i feel much safer defending myself with kungfu than taekwondo

i got in a fight with a bigger "kickboxer" style guy a few years ago, used my taekwondo, kicked him in the ribs as hard as i could, nothing happened. then i tried to move in (or something) and got caught in a front gillotene choke hold, luckily managed to make him let go (pulling his hair or something) and yeah, ran like hell
:)
this kinda messed me up for a whilst (feeling of uselessness, not being able to defend myself, etc) i found the biggest problem was my racing heartbeat, and not enough confidence to smash down his guard (and not knowing how to attack him!)

i praise kungfu for giving me back confidence (the style is very similar to southern praying mantis)

If i was in that situation again, i would have done things much differently.
NAMELY, moved in very smoothly and agressively, smashed his guard down, and started smacking him around like a punching bag

I guess kungfu just has a more realistic approach to fighting, in my experience.

p.s. kungfu really does work well, but BJJ and wrestling is excellent if the guy is smaller and by himself :)

[chen zhen]

A convert to Kung fu-ism. excellent;) :D

[Merryprankster]

p.s. kungfu really does work well, but BJJ and wrestling is excellent if the guy is smaller and by himself

Works better if by himself, sure, but what art doesn't. But smaller? Wrong answer! Thanks for playing our game!

[NorthernMantis]

Well if there's a Korean style I owuld take it's Hwa rang do. Tkd just got it's kicks form it but from what I've seen hwa rang do got's more like weapons,joint locks,oh and all sorts of limb breaking. Well supposedly it's the origin of all the Kroan arts
.

[Liokault]

Well if there's a Korean style I owuld take it's Hwa rang do. Tkd just got it's kicks form it but from what I've seen hwa rang do got's more like weapons,joint locks,oh and all sorts of limb breaking. Well supposedly it's the origin of all the Kroan arts



Properganda is a dangerouse thing.

[bodhitree]

The very first Shaolin form I ever learned is harder to perform and more sophisticated than the Black Belt forms in TKD. I attend a TKD class from time to time, it is semi useful because there they work on boxing and Judo/jujitsu a lot. I think its like any other art, it's who's teaching it. The forms are definately not to smooth and dont have any value to combat.

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by Liokault
Suntzu




LOL funnily enough what finaly retired him was dislocating his shoulder in our tai chi class! His last san shou fight saw his shoulder come out repeatedly. OUCH:eek:

[Suntzu]

The forms are definately not to smooth and dont have any value to combat. :eek: hmmmmm... i let that one slide...

[Shaolin-Do]

I popped my shoulder COMPLETELY out of socket a month ago... Its still recovering, Gonna have to get surgery cause the muscles in back of my shoulder are torn, they are soft and squishy like bruised fruit now. Even when I flex... and when I flex it just really really hurts. :(

TKD forms - Crap. very rigid... Stupid blocks.... TKD suxors. Better by nothin, but not by much.
Albeit, everyone Ive seen come to SD from TKD is very flexible, myself included.
Gotta go with bodhitree on that one too... I hated doing forms in TKD, and when I got to SD, 1st form I learned I loved.... (took a 15th white crane seminar my 2nd week)
:)

[fa_jing]

TKD training methods of doing many repetitions of kicks in the air and focussing on the "snap" sound that the uniform makes, encourages hyper-extension of the limbs. It develops your kicking ability fast, but IMO it will cause problems in the long run. I hurt my knee this way in TKD after 1.5 years and had to stop. Nowadays I would prefer to train those kicks slowly, or on a bag.

[norther practitioner]

then again what really qualifies as a complete system?

I'm surprised not one person jumped on this..

[apoweyn]

I trained taekwondo for 5+ years without any injury to knees, etc. And we did lots of kicking in the air. I'm not suggesting that's a particularly useful training method. But it didn't do me any physical harm either. Nor do I personally know any taekwondoka who had this problem. Accidents are accidents. But I don't think that's an inherent problem in the training method.


Stuart B.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter
i got in a fight with a bigger "kickboxer" style guy a few years ago, used my taekwondo, kicked him in the ribs as hard as i could, nothing happened. then i tried to move in (or something) and got caught in a front gillotene choke hold, luckily managed to make him let go (pulling his hair or something) and yeah, ran like hell
:)


If you failed to crack his rib, you have bee taught very bad version of TKD/Karate. Essential part of Karate/TKD fighting strategy is its ability to disable opponent by breaking him. That is why destruction is the integral part of Karate/TKD training. Plus, if you train in full contact sparing, you will incur lot of injury.

Here is a example of Shotokan sparing.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/japan/8/page06.html

[Suntzu]

Yeeeeup... TKD sucks see (http://www.budogirls.com/faves/tkd/fk02.jpg)

[old jong]

O.K...It sucks.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Liokault




Properganda is a dangerouse thing.

Not really..it wasn't only the media but I have met some people who have met others in it ( lol yeah the old friend of a friend sotry but I beleive him) and he mentioned that it dwelved more deeply into other areas of martial arts.

Oh and by the way you missed that fact that I said "supposedly" instead that it was the origin of modern Korean arts.

[Vapour]

It is no exaggeration to say that all the modern Korean martial arts derived from Japanese martial arts. The fact is that Korean did not have strong martial culture like Japan where military class ruled the country nearly 800 years or China where banditry and warlordism were common and unique martial arts institution, Shaolin temple preserved and research the arts for centuries.

There is no shame in this. Korea surpased Japan in other aspects such as painting and ceramic. And I suspect that they were superior in study of Classics. Korean were more advance than Japan in term of civilization in ancient period and that is a fact.

On the other hand, Japan did overtake Korea somewhere in 18th century. After all, Japan is the only non-Western country to join imperialist conquest. There is no secret that Korean looked, studied and copied many things from Japan for it's development model after their liberation. Anyway, Japan did exactly the same with the West when they realised how behind they are. Also brutal experience of Japanese occapation and Korean War caused Korean to reshaped their identity in more militaristic manner just as Jew did in Israel after the Holocaust.

Now, when someone tried to reclaim it's martial tradition by studying the arts from someone else who is the exact group to have brutalised you, you are going to get very complex view on how they see such martial tradition.

Most know TKD being 2000 years old is a bull, right? Also, Hwaran myth is a modern invention. During the Korean war,South Korean government ordered historian to find something which inspire youth. So they found obscure reference of this institution and promoted something which is somewhat akin but superior to Japanese Bushido.

There are so much creative editing goes on in Korean history let alone martial arts. As I explained, there are quite understandable reason for this but there is no point for Westerneres to get into this.

[Vapour]

I should mention one more thing. Just because something is derived from something does not mean it's inferior.

However, as far as TKD are concerend, commercialism and sportification has destroyed much of what used to be an effective martial arts

[rogue]

Hwarangdo nice art , had some really good people in it, borderline cult.


The very first Shaolin form I ever learned is harder to perform and more sophisticated than the Black Belt forms in TKD. Which black belt forms? So harder forms equals better fighting art?


The forms are definately not to smooth
Which forms and which kwan? Beginners tend to be choppy, by brown belt things should be starting to smooth out and flow more. If not you aren't getting it.

and dont have any value to combat.And this is based upon your years of study of the bunkai of which other arts?


Stupid blocksCould be, explain how to properly block and where each kwan of TKD fails.


i got in a fight with a bigger "kickboxer" style guy a few years ago, used my taekwondo, kicked him in the ribs as hard as i could, nothing happened. Where to begin? Cracked ribs are a pretty common occurance in most striking arts. Well those that actually make an attempt to hit each other.

I love it when people go to a McDojang, buy their belts, somehow become experts in all forms of TKD and then go on about how it sucks because they didn't learn anything. Please, if it all sucks ask Herb Perez or Hee Il Cho to kick you in the head.

Is TKD a serious sport, a martial art, an after school activity? The TKD world is a mess, and the mess is made by many of those in TKD. But it's not alone and in better shape than most other arts out there. If you doubt me read some of the other forums right here.

[Liokault]

Hey Tigerjaw.

you train in Oxford!....Fancy doing a San shou fight?

[Nevermind]

It's been so long since I heard any TKD bashing on this forum. I thought you guys had finally put it to rest. Anyway, in a strange twisted way, it's kind of refreshing to reminisce on old times. By the way, I am a former 1st Dan practitioner of ITF TKD. There were things about it that I agreed with and some things that I didn't. But isn't that with all arts? Kung Fu just happens to suit me better. However, even after a year and a half of diligent training in Hung Gar, I still know of a few TKD stylists who I still would not want to fight. They just happened to be people who practiced seriously as a martial art and not a sport. They are out there. Be careful of underestimating. Fight the person, not the style.

[racerX]

I've been studying TKD/ITF for years I like it we train hard in all areas,including realistic self defense.Ill say that it may be simpler than kung fu but basics is what i would use in a fight anyhow.I worked in bars when going to school got into a couple good scraps and myTKD worked just fine,ended one with an elbow to the face.Anyhow I seen kung fu schools that never spar or spar once in awhile and have spared,touch hands with kung fu guys, guess what they try to spar like TKD and very bad IMO.So if you people who have trained in TKD and recived blackbelts and can't make it work for you HOW in the world are you going to make a comprehensive system of kung fu work?

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by Liokault
Hey Tigerjaw.

you train in Oxford!....Fancy doing a San shou fight?

Yup, train and live in the city of the dreaming spires.

San shou fight eh? Presumably this is some kind of full contact tournament type rules. No thanks, I'm only a yellow belt and don't fancy getting my unskilled arse kicked arround the place.

Where do you train San Shou?

[Liokault]

Tigerjaw


Where do you train San Shou

I dont train in san shou......I train in Tai Chi and fight in san shou.

(on the cowley road)

[TigerJaw]

Are you one of 'Tai Chi' Dave Baker's students? i knew a guy who trained there, Mark McGrath.

[Liokault]

Are you one of 'Tai Chi' Dave Baker's students? i knew a guy who trained there, Mark McGrath.

Yup im one of his students.......Is that Irish Mark?....used to work in the elm tree?

[Ging Mo Fighter]

Originally posted by Vapour


If you failed to crack his rib, you have bee taught very bad version of TKD/Karate. Essential part of Karate/TKD fighting strategy is its ability to disable opponent by breaking him. That is why destruction is the integral part of Karate/TKD training. Plus, if you train in full contact sparing, you will incur lot of injury.

Here is a example of Shotokan sparing.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/japan/8/page06.html

We did lots of sparing and power training, but I think your'e missing the point...

you can have excellent technique, and powerful kicks, but in a street fight, that first kick might not always break the rib, expecially if the guy is much bigger and stronger (its not akin to gouging out the eyes, or attacking the throat) so often you are left in a vulnerable position if that attack fails

note taekwondo also lacks the continuous attack strategy of kungfu, less flow (no, combination kicks dont count)

[sweaty_dog]

"After all, Japan is the only non-Western country to join imperialist conquest."

Rubbish.

[Mr Punch]

Yep, absolutely, I would guess that the Mongols would have had something to say to Vapour from Poland about that...!:D

[Vapour]

Either some of you suffer from gross lack of historical knowledge or just nitpicking on the term imperialism. The term imperialism has very specific meaning and does not include Mongol's global expansion.

[shaolin kungfu]

Do you consider the ottoman empire eastern or western?

[chen zhen]

Eastern, definately.

agrees

[Vapour]

You got me there. However, here are few counters.

One, turkey at least would like to consider themselves part of Europe. They are in Euro Song contest and other European football league after all. Their culture do look distinctly different from Northern European coutries, but once you edge close to country like Greece or southern Slavic nations the difference become less obvious as Ottoman empire inherited large part of Byzantie Empire, not to mention the fact that muslim has been part of Europe for suprising long period.

Secondly, Ottoman empire didn't really aquire any territory at all during the period concerned. There are number of country which was empire during the period such as Qin Dynasty for example which was Manchurian empire rulling over Chinese. But we don't consider them as part of imperialism don't we despite the fact that they fought over Koera with Japanese.

I'm certainly happy to admit that Ottoman empire is a grey area given that it was a major player in *European* geo-politics.

However, personally, I don't consider Ottoman empire to qualify for the country to join the leage of imperialism mainly because the empire declined rather than expanded during the period concerned.

There are few other reasons. For example, Ottoman empire wasn't turkish empire as current Turkish government would like to promote. Jew, Greek, Turkish, Armenian and Arab were sometimes refered to as five fingers of the empire. The loss of multiculturalism was one reason the empire disintegrated. Lastly, Ottoman empire was feudal. Now, how feudal Japan was is a interesting topic of debate. But Japan did take significant and deliberate steps to bring itself out of feudal society. In turkey, such effort occure after Kemal Ataturk.

The statement that Japan being the only non-western country to join the league of imeprialism is not at all controversial. However, once you up the level of academic accuracy, the statement can certainly be questioned. After all, general statement is what it is. General.

And why am I debating imperialism in TKD thread?

[Yung Apprentice]

I was wondering the same thing.:D

[David Jamieson]

vapour and rogue choked out the negative to tkd thread.

Any martial art is as good as you make it. We all know there is a good deal of tkd or karate pracs out there who are just as good or even better than kungfu players (or just as bad.)

cheers

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by Vapour
You got me there. However, here are few counters.

One, turkey at least would like to consider themselves part of Europe. They are in Euro Song contest and other European football league after all.

just as a poin t of fact for those who don't know. Almost all of Turkey is in Asia with a tiny amount of it, namely, the stretch between Istanbul and Edime being in Europe. In fact Istanbul stradles the neck of the Black Sea, which seperates the two continents. It has been extreemly important geo-politically in times past as it's one of the few routes between Asia and Europe that doesn't involve crossing water or mountains.

They're in the Euorvision song contest because they're part of the European broadcasting union. Isreal and Russia are also in it. (Russia is also mostly in Asia with a little bit in Europe.)

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by Liokault


Yup im one of his students.......Is that Irish Mark?....used to work in the elm tree?

That's him.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by TigerJaw


just as a poin t of fact for those who don't know. Almost all of Turkey is in Asia with a tiny amount of it, namely, the stretch between Istanbul and Edime being in Europe. In fact Istanbul stradles the neck of the Black Sea, which seperates the two continents. It has been extreemly important geo-politically in times past as it's one of the few routes between Asia and Europe that doesn't involve crossing water or mountains.

They're in the Euorvision song contest because they're part of the European broadcasting union. Isreal and Russia are also in it. (Russia is also mostly in Asia with a little bit in Europe.)

There are no distinct landlines to separate Europe from Asia. Is Georgia part of Europe? Poland, a slavic nation is considered as part of Europe but Russian is not? Where do you draw a line. Well the answer is there are no lines. Europe is not surrounded by sea.

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by Vapour


There are no distinct landlines to separate Europe from Asia. Is Georgia part of Europe? Poland, a slavic nation is considered as part of Europe but Russian is not? Where do you draw a line. Well the answer is there are no lines. Europe is not surrounded by sea.

The Eural mountains and the Black sea separate Europe and Asia.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by TigerJaw


The Eural mountains and the Black sea separate Europe and Asia.

Hahaha, yes with that, China and India are continent. Plus, there are huge excape route to Asia from the right hand side of Caspian sea, not to mention the fact that understanding of tectonic plate came way later than invention of the word, *Europe*. I can certainly accept that Europe is a region just like Middle East is but it is certainly not an unique geographical area like Africa, North/South America or Australia.

[TigerJaw]

We could argue all week about this, let's not bother.

[Vapour]

So true. :D