What do you think of this school?

[RedSkaNite]

Hi all. My first post on these boards. I have decided to start a MA soon, and have been researching all the schools near me. To be honest, Kung Fu wasn't my first (or second!) choice. Being stocky and rather ungraceful, it didn't seem to be the best choice for me. But after visiting 6 different schools, these guys seem to be the best. Do you think it is better to pick a type of martial art, and look for it, or pick the best place to learn, and go with them?

Anyway here is the site, please tell me what you think. As I said, I like them, but they are a bit expensive, and I would really like to hear the opinion of more experienced people before I blow my money! Here is the site.

http://www.shaolincenter.com/location/marietta/marietta.jsp

[Oso]

ok, either you are serious or this was a pretty good troll...


try looking these guys up:

http://www.geocities.com/kung-fu-atl/

[RedSkaNite]

Very serious. Sorry if it looks like a troll. Honestly I don't understand what seems trollish about it. I am a complete MA noob. I visited the classes and they were all taught by adults, with a good teacher to student ratio; unlike the other places I visited. I'll check out your link.

I checked out your link. It seems good, but too far from my home.

I am going to repost my message on the Shaolin forum, as it seems to be the more apropriate place. Thanx Brad!

[Brad]

It's Shaolin-Do. Outside opinions on them tend to be very negative. Do a forum search for Shaolin-Do on either this forum & the Shaolin forum to find out everyone's opinions. I think most everything that can be said has been said before :D

[Brad]

cool, this place has videos! :cool: :D


Do you think it is better to pick a type of martial art, and look for it, or pick the best place to learn, and go with them?
That's a tough one... depends on what's more important ligitimacy/honesty or atmosphere/quality of instruction. For example someone might have 100% verifiable lineage to some great master but really suck, while another lies about his background and what he teaches but has decent martial arts ability... which do you pick?

[Oso]

Brad, what "Brad" said. I hold no opinion on them as I've never trained with any of them.

Good luck.

At one time I had found a kinda catch all website for Atlanta MA.



here's another mantis teacher, don't know if it's closer

Northern Praying-Mantis
Kung-Fu Academy
4701 Flat Shoals Rd.
Apt 58F
Union City, Georgia 30291
Head Instructor: Virginia Cannon


btw, I just happened to know these two folks are down that way but have never met either.

[Shuul Vis]

Here's a quote from the website about one of its teachers.

"Sifu John Judd began his study of Shao Lin martial arts in June of 1992 under Master Gary Grooms in Norcross. Sifu Judd tested for his black belt in 1994 and was awarded his teaching certificate in March of 1996"

Dude was teaching after 4 years. A black belt in 2 years. I guess thats possible, if you are learning and teaching the alphabet or something.

[brassmonkey]

lol

[brassmonkey]

edit

[PHILBERT]

I don't think he is trolling. To be honest, I almost took up Shaolin-Do a couple years ago before I came to KFO. I read the history and thought "What...?" but didn't see the Chewbacca thing. For some reason I had trouble finding the school so I never joined them. This guy just might not understand.

And Brad, I too thought "AWESOME! They got videos!"

Ok, I downloaded and sent half them to the recycling bin (though have yet to do the final deleting). After watching half and wondering why my video was choppy, I realized I forgot to use DivX, so I opened DivX to watch the other half and don't feel like watching the first.

All I can say is...wow. Um...There is a Shaolin-Do school in my very city. I'd love to go visit them and uh...do a little friendly sparring with some students. Some of that stuff looked like it'll get you killed. Ok, alot of it.

[Brad]

So far I've downloaded the Buddha Fist, Black Tiger, "Yang" 64, & Spear vs. Broadsword... I've got a slow slow connection, lol. No comment so far :P

[Shaolin-Do]

Id like to spar with a lot of you peeps who down SD. Dont think youd feel the same afterwards.
:eek:
:D

[shaolin kungfu]

Has anyone seen the sparring vids? My computer craps out whenever I try to.

[huafist]

Philbert-

The school has moved to Grand Prairie, but is still close. Soon the instructor plans on having Saturday sparring/training sessions in the old backyard. Perhaps you could come to one of them?

Huafist

[Judge Pen]

I've watched the videos. I know some of the forms there. Some of them are performed well and some of them could have been performed better. It depends on the person performing the forms. People have different opinions on Master Grooms in SD but he is a master and deserves respect. I have heard good things about Sifu Mike Reid. He was nice when I met him and was actually a linebacker for the Atlanta Falcons for a time.

Let me know what criticisms you had of the forms and what things you saw that you liked (if anything guys). I'll share my opinions on what I thought was good and what I thought was bad.

[MasterKiller]

JP,

I can tell you that Chain Whip form lacks some basic fundamentals. Of course, it could just be the guy performing it.


And the staff form is very Karate-esque. Chinese Kung Fu uses the whole staff and doesn't grip in the middle most of the time.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
JP,

I can tell you that Chain Whip form lacks some basic fundamentals. Of course, it could just be the guy performing it.

It probably does. I don't know chain whip myself so I can't comment. You should see Master Mullins perform the chain whip. Very nice. Maybe he will post some of it online sometime.

As for the staff, there are time when we grip in the middle and times when we don't. We use the end to jab with often similar to a spear's la na cha and swing it by and end in a sweeping motion.

[Brad]

Watched a couple more(14 white crane, Classical Bagua, and the Xingyi one). So far I like the Xingyi one best, though I still have lots of problems with it. What I like is I can actually see recognizable Xingyi techniques in it without using too much imagination(unlike that Yang form), the guy shows some good quickness in some of his movements... What I don't like is the unstable footwork, the way the head tilts with the chin up, stiffness in waist and back, and the stance with the front knee bent sideways with heel off the floor. Also what appears to be a dragon technique at 13 sec.(upward punch, into the cross stance) seems to lose some of it's intended application the way this person performs it(the way I understand the tech. and the way I've seen others do it). I've got to go to work, I'll explain that part latter, lol.

[MasterKiller]

Most of the other weapons forms are too short to really comment on, though I have some opinions.

The broadsword form bothers me because he does not keep the sword close to his neck when he flourishes behind him. The purpose of that move is to block the neck, and the sword should remain close to the body and drag across the neck during the block to keep you head on your shoulders.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad
Watched a couple more(14 white crane, Classical Bagua, and the Xingyi one). So far I like the Xingyi one best, though I still have lots of problems with it. What I like is I can actually see recognizable Xingyi techniques in it without using too much imagination(unlike that Yang form), the guy shows some good quickness in some of his movements... What I don't like is the unstable footwork, the way the head tilts with the chin up, stiffness in waist and back, and the stance with the front knee bent sideways with heel off the floor. Also what appears to be a dragon technique at 13 sec.(upward punch, into the cross stance) seems to lose some of it's intended application the way this person performs it(the way I understand the tech. and the way I've seen others do it). I've got to go to work, I'll explain that part latter, lol.

Interesting. The Xingyi linkage is one of my favorite forms, and Mike Reid does show some nice quickness there. I did learn that particular turn in the stance differently. (My heel doesn't come off the ground there and my understanding is to shed/absorb a technique coming inand turn it back with the shift in stance/hips firing two upward fists. I'm interested in your take when you get back from work.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Most of the other weapons forms are too short to really comment on, though I have some opinions.

The broadsword form bothers me because he does not keep the sword close to his neck when he flourishes behind him. The purpose of that move is to block the neck, and the sword should remain close to the body and drag across the neck during the block to keep you head on your shoulders.

Is that a criticism of the form or the practitioner? Your description of the technique and the way I learned the technique sound the same.

Gotta run meet some clients. Be back this afternoon.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Got to be honest I haven't seen any clips just images and text, and the Taiji stuff seems very dodgy, especially the naff "supposedly" push-hands stance in front on Yang Lu-chan's training area. They may provide some good training in other stuff but it doesn't sound a place worth training with Taiji wise.

[MasterKiller]

Is that a criticism of the form or the practitioner? Your description of the technique and the way I learned the technique sound the same.
Well, that's the tricky part, now isn't it? Is it just the way this guy is doing it, or was he taught that way? I dunno. All I can tell from the video is that he is performing this move incorrectly.

Also, the spear guy in the 2 man set jabs the spear instead of sliding his front hand down the spear to create maximum distances between himself and the sword. Spears are primarily long range weapons and the whole spear is extended forward when attacking, not just the tip. Usually, an attack with a spear is preceded by a twisting motion, used to deflect incoming attacks. He didn't do this, either.

Of course, it could just be the student's technique.

[shaolin kungfu]

The "skewer the sun" upset me. The free hand never moved and stayed only in the center of the body. From what i've seen and learned of straight sword, the hand moves quite a bit.

edit: there were other things, but that was the most obvious.

[MasterKiller]

SK,

I noticed that, too, but what bothered me more was the position of her fingers in the open hand. The middle and index fingers should be fully extended (simulating a second sword), and the thumb should be pressed against the ring finger and pinky finger, keeping them bent. Her thumb is all over the place.

[Shaolin-Do]

Dont know about the rest of the SD community, but at my kwoon maybe 4 people can actually make forms look good.
However, I do hold VERY little esteem in the comments made about SD nowadays, after WD showed the SC clips, and people retorted that it was "TKD". Ive seen a ton of really good wushu vids, but as for straight up GOOD kung fu, on video, online, I really havent seen much.

[MasterKiller]

Ive seen a ton of really good wushu vids, but as for straight up GOOD kung fu, on video, online, I really havent seen much.

True that.

However, if you do a search on KaZaa for Kung fu videos, you can find some tournament sets from the 80s that are very fast and very accurate. The video quality is poor on most of them, but they perform the sets well with power and fluidity.

[shaolin kungfu]

good observation.

SD guys: It looks as though the person were trained to hold it like that. Were all of you taught to do so?

The more clips I watch, the less I like it. Maybe it's just me though.

[MasterKiller]

Dont know about the rest of the SD community, but at my kwoon maybe 4 people can actually make forms look good.

I'm not really talking about forms, I'm talking about basic techniques. Techniques should be correct, even if fluidity and power is lacking. Besides, aren't all these guys black belts? They should have basic technique down by now.

BTW--SD, you gonna make it to Taji Legacy? We have all agreed to a deathmatch between you, me, Norther Practioner, and possibly LostTrack and Philbert. :D

[Shaolin-Do]

Werent the guys in the SC vids that everyone called "karate" blackbelts? If their technique was that amazing then it wouldnt have been called "karate and TKD" would it?

And sadly, yes, I have seen a few blackbelts who have pretty **** poor technique.... As goes for any style were talking about.

[MasterKiller]

Werent the guys in the SC vids that everyone called "karate" blackbelts? If their technique was that amazing then it wouldnt have been called "karate and TKD" would it?

Like you, everyone calling that TKD baffled me as well. But those were sparring matches, afterall, and they were getting hit and thrown. People doing individual forms should have cleaner and more precise technique than people defending themselves.


And sadly, yes, I have seen a few blackbelts who have pretty **** poor technique.... As goes for any style were talking about.

Word.

Now, how about that deathmatch? You in?

[Fred Sanford]

just watched the hsing-i clip.

didn't like it. body mechanics, hello? the guy doesn't use his back at all. he doesn't seem to compress and expand. very stiff and karate-esqe. for example, when he does a beng chuan it is just arm, no body.

why is he looking up at the sky? is there something on the ceiling? man, that pipe is leaking. I'll have to get that fixed.

[Shaolin-Do]

Oh well. I guess we are just a Karate TKD and kuk sool won hybrid. Im off to shoot myself in the leg now.

Deathmatch?
certainly. Only if primary attacks will be eye gouges and throat chops. Maybe kicks to the knee, the wrong way of course.
Oh, and lot of toe kicks to the armpit.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by huafist
Philbert-

The school has moved to Grand Prairie, but is still close. Soon the instructor plans on having Saturday sparring/training sessions in the old backyard. Perhaps you could come to one of them?

Huafist

Oh, they closed down the Arlington school over on Stadium? That sucks, took me 15 minutes of driving in circles to find it :p. I had been meaning to go look at the school for the past 8 or so months but never got around to it until one day after one of my classes got out at college. I looked it up online and went to visit the school, no one was there of course being that it was like 1 pm. Oh, well. Where is it located now in Grand Prarie?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

Well, that's the tricky part, now isn't it? Is it just the way this guy is doing it, or was he taught that way? I dunno. All I can tell from the video is that he is performing this move incorrectly.

Also, the spear guy in the 2 man set jabs the spear instead of sliding his front hand down the spear to create maximum distances between himself and the sword. Spears are primarily long range weapons and the whole spear is extended forward when attacking, not just the tip. Usually, an attack with a spear is preceded by a twisting motion, used to deflect incoming attacks. He didn't do this, either.

Of course, it could just be the student's technique.

You are absolutely right about the spear technique. I don't know the broadsword spear set, but the spear forms that I know does incorporate a twisting motion prior to thrusting the spear as it slides through the front hand. Maybe his technique is bad or maybe he isn't providing a full extension because it is a two man set and he is trying to be careful. I don't know.

As for the straight sword, you are also right in that her hand position was incorrect. As for the hand movement, I don't know the form so I don't know if she performed it correctly or not. I have Master Eric Smith performing the same form back in 1982 on video. I'll watch that form tonight and let you know what he does with his hands in comparison to the woman on the internet.

[MasterKiller]

You are absolutely right about the spear technique. I don't know the broadsword spear set, but the spear forms that I know does incorporate a twisting motion prior to thrusting the spear as it slides through the front hand. Maybe his technique stinks or maybe he isn't providing a full extension because it is a two man set and he is trying to be careful. I don't know.

The guy doing the individual spear form doesn't perform the blocking technique, either. Are you familiar with the form he does at all?

What is your assessment of the quality of these particular Black Belts' training, considering you have experience in this style?

Which forms here are pretty good examples of proper mechanics and technique, according to how you have been trained?

[norther practitioner]

To the SD guys, which of the videos do you think gives the best representation of what you guys do....
I'm rather unimpressed with the Yang taiji.... I don't recognize the movements as yang... It looks like slowed down southern something or other...
The spear was not too strong, no whip, no twist.
I'll have to agree with mk and skf about the other forms, I haven't watched all of them, but from what I see, it is hard to tell intent with a lot of those practitioners....

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


The guy doing the individual spear form doesn't perform the blocking technique, either. Are you familiar with the form he does at all?

What is your assessment of the quality of these particular Black Belts' training, considering you have experience in this style?

Which forms here are pretty good examples of proper mechanics and technique, according to how you have been trained?

Ok. I've watched the vids of the forms I actually know and I see and understand your criticisms.

BTW, most of these people out rank me. I am a 2nd degree black sash. My critiques are ment with all due respect. :)

1st Black Tiger: "Black Tiger Rips the Heart" She is one the best SD practitioner on this site. This form was done too fast for my taste with not enough emphasis on her stances, but other than that it would be the best of this set.

14th Crane: My only critique of this guy doing this form is that his sweeps didn't incorprate his hips.

3rd Black Tiger: "Black Tiger Flips the Body" Too fast and a bit sloppy. Also, I was not taught to land on the same leg that I kicked with prior to throwing the spinning back kick. Difficult to do and impressive that he can do it, but not in the form as I know it.

China Hand. I know this form as "5 directional palm." Too fast for my taste.

Short Form: Not a good representation. Stances couls have been better.

Stomping Drunk: Hsiang Chung Li of the eight druken immortals. The guy put great emphasis on being drunk and could have shown more power. This is a very powerful form when done right.

Tiger/Crane: Too fast in my taste. Could be done with more power.

Tai Chi sword: Descent, but could have been better. Of course, I'm very picky.

Spear: Seemed a bit stiff.

Pa Kua: This is Master Grooms. I do some things differently. I step differently. A little higher. He places more emphasis on snap and not flow.

Hsing-I linkage: 2nd best of the set. I probably move my body a little more when I do this form. The concept of bringing your entire body with the technique, but when your 260 lbs you can find other ways to generate power. :)

Yang Tai Chi 64: We are taught to do it very slow.

I'm wearing my flame resistant clothes now.

:D

edit: MK: The individual spear form is not one that I personally know.

Also I am in know way representing that I could perform any of these forms "better" I do them my way and my critques are based on my training and understanding.

[norther practitioner]

Tai Chi sword: Hand was not held right and her stepping and weight distribution was off. Not horrible, but not as good as it could be.

She misses a cut, or a block, depending on who's teaching it, the intent isn't quite right... the sword should be an extenstion of your body, not something you body is moving....

Some of the vids seemed sped up at points.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


She misses a cut, or a block, depending on who's teaching it, the intent isn't quite right... the sword should be an extenstion of your body, not something you body is moving....

Some of the vids seemed sped up at points.

The vids may be sped up or it may just be the transfer/computer. Anyway, several of the forms seemed to be too fast.

I've compared our Tai Chi Sword with some books depicting the standardized form and we have some differences.

[shaolin kungfu]

Does anyone think that this is related to shaolin?

Edit: I dont mean to be insulting, just that it doesn't really look like what I do. I was asking all the other shaolin guys what their opinion was.

[MasterKiller]

What's up with everyone dropping their hands on side, back, and front heel kicks? Is that how kicking is taught at your school? See Black Tiger 3, Short Forms, Praying Mantis for examples.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
What's up with everyone dropping their hands on side, back, and front heel kicks? Is that how kicking is taught at your school? See Black Tiger 3, Short Forms, Praying Mantis for examples.

No we are not taught ot drop our hands. I know several people that still do it, but it is wrong. I gave fairly negative critiques on BT3 and SF, but I don't know the PM form.

[MasterKiller]

Judge,

I'll throw the question back at you, then. Do you think your critiques are of the players shown, the style, or the quality of instruction?

[huafist]

Philbert-

Off of Ave. K, it's actually inside a friend's business' warehouse, so you have to know exactly where you are going. I don't have exact directions at this time. I'll let you know when I find out.

Norther-
I can't see the clips, but I would guess this is considered a representation of what is middle of the rood SD. If there is a clip of Mike Reid, I have seen him do some pretty good stuff.

Masterkiller-
Dropping the hands is to help facilitate iron face training.

Shaolin kungfu-
I think some of the Hua forms might be more similar to what you do. Some of the forms help build or prepare one for the longer forms.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Judge,

I'll throw the question back at you, then. Do you think your critiques are of the players shown, the style, or the quality of instruction?

Fair enough:

95% of it comes down to instruction. To be fair, the teacher may have taught the forms correctly but hasn't followed up enough to insure that his/her students perform the forms as he taught them. My biggest complaint with SD is that we learn too many forms sometimes. :o I enjoy the diversity and I am somewhat A.D.D., and I take to certain forms over others because of body mechanics and preferences, but sometimes the applications are left to the student to find for themselves. That's fine if you have a student that trains hard on his own and seeks the martial intent to the form but most people are too lazy to do that.


I have an excellent sifu who breaks forms down with their applications and does his best to see that his students are doing the things he teaches. I'm lucky. Not everyone can say that.

BTW, this applies to all martial arts not just SD.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by huafist
If there is a clip of Mike Reid, I have seen him do some pretty good stuff.

Masterkiller-
Dropping the hands is to help facilitate iron face training.



I agree. Mike Reid is a class act.

[PHILBERT]

Hey, send me a PM message when ya get the address ok? Thanks.

[Shaolin-Do]

I learned break my nose with the car door chuan at lunch. :(
didnt break bones, but broke that itty bitty piece of cartilage on the front, nose hasnt stopped bleeding yet. :(
Its been almost 2 hours :(
MK- I havent seen the vids, but its probably more or less the players mostly, + mildly instruction, because improper tech. should be corrected.
I never drop my hands when I kick.

[MasterKiller]

MK- I havent seen the vids, but its probably more or less the players mostly, + mildly instruction, because improper tech. should be corrected.

But these are 3rd degree+ black belts. I think at that level, it's more obvious an instructor issue.

[huafist]

Judge Pen-

I agree with your comments about having too much at times. It is very easy to be a Jack of All Trades and Master of Nothing. Master Smith said the best thing that happened to him was when he did not learn any new material for three years. He chose one thing, Ba Gua, to really focus on and absorb.

PS
Did you see the tournament when GM Sin perfromed the Judge Pen form?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by huafist
Judge Pen-

I agree with your comments about having too much at times. It is very easy to be a Jack of All Trades and Master of Nothing. Master Smith said the best thing that happened to him was when he did not learn any new material for three years. He chose one thing, Ba Gua, to really focus on and absorb.

PS
Did you see the tournament when GM Sin perfromed the Judge Pen form?

It would take at least that long to even begin to understand the nuances of Ba Gua. It's one of my favorite forms but I'm nowhere near as proficient at it as I would like.

I have never seen the Judge Pen form. What is it like?

[Shaolin-Do]

My instructor breaks down forms for us :)
different stroked for different folks, Cant say all the SD schools are ran the same unfortunately.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
My instructor breaks down forms for us :)
different stroked for different folks, Cant say all the SD schools are ran the same unfortunately.

My teacher does as well, but there are several potential applications for every move in every form. One day I'll stop worrying about rank advancement, pick 10 forms that I think suit my personal style and really break them down.

[RedSkaNite]

Well I have decided to look for something else. This school MAY be O.K., but you guys have convinced me that I don't have the knowledge to be sure of judging that accuratly for myself. I will look for something less controversial for my first MA. I am going to sit in on a Wing Chun class tonight, and on a Shinkendo/Aikibujutsu class later this week. Thanx for all of the info!

[shaolin kungfu]

Wing chun would be a good choice, as long as you don't become obsessed with lineage and start arguing for no reason.;)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by RedSkaNite
Well I have decided to look for something else. This school MAY be O.K., but you guys have convinced me that I don't have the knowledge to be sure of judging that accuratly for myself. I will look for something less controversial for my first MA. I am going to sit in on a Wing Chun class tonight, and on a Shinkendo/Aikibujutsu class later this week. Thanx for all of the info!

And Wing Chun is controversial on this forum? :)

You do need to make informed decisions and this forum can help, but please understand that everyone here has an opinion, good or bad, and the anonymity of this forum allows them to express them rather strongly sometimes. Whatever school you pick I wish you luck. You can't go wrong if you enjoy the training and feel it is teaching you something beneficial.

God Speed,

JP

[MasterKiller]

And Wing Chun is controversial on this forum?

Not here, but watch your head if you ever stumble into the Wing Chun forum. Things are flying all over the place in there.

[Shaolin-Do]

I can fly all over the place.
But only when I put flubber in my shoes.

[Brad]

Interesting. The Xingyi linkage is one of my favorite forms, and Mike Reid does show some nice quickness there. I did learn that particular turn in the stance differently. (My heel doesn't come off the ground there and my understanding is to shed/absorb a technique coming inand turn it back with the shift in stance/hips firing two upward fists. I'm interested in your take when you get back from work.
Ok, the way I was taught was the left arm would come downwards as a trap and the right hand would shoot up much like his did. Also he quickly pulled it back as if it was some sort of quick jab. In our form the right hand would open up, turn over, catch the forearm, left left would come over catch the shoulder and you would pull the opponent in while the right foot comes up to almost waist level(with foot facing outwards) and then the right foot(along with the rest of the weight) would come down on the opponent's knee and you end up in a low long cross stance, right hand pulled back behind you and left hand in from.
Don't know how well I described it... I'll find pics if I can, lol.

[Kumkuat]

I saw them do the Xing Yi demo in person before, and I just saw the video. It sucked, and it will always suck. Why? he does it like an 'external art' The power of the strikes were driven by his hips like a regular karate punch. I also saw the Chen 18 video. I think he needs to be more relaxed.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad

Ok, the way I was taught was the left arm would come downwards as a trap and the right hand would shoot up much like his did. Also he quickly pulled it back as if it was some sort of quick jab. In our form the right hand would open up, turn over, catch the forearm, left left would come over catch the shoulder and you would pull the opponent in while the right foot comes up to almost waist level(with foot facing outwards) and then the right foot(along with the rest of the weight) would come down on the opponent's knee and you end up in a low long cross stance, right hand pulled back behind you and left hand in from.
Don't know how well I described it... I'll find pics if I can, lol.

Pictures would help Brad. If you could do that and send them to me that would be great. BTW, you missed quit a lot of discussion on these forms!

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Kumkuat
I saw them do the Xing Yi demo in person before, and I just saw the video. It sucked, and it will always suck. Why? he does it like an 'external art' The power of the strikes were driven by his hips like a regular karate punch. I also saw the Chen 18 video. I think he needs to be more relaxed.

Who was "them?" :confused:

[Kumkuat]

Shaolin Do guys. Particularly the atlanta branch people.

[Brad]

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/marcello/mutations05.jpg
another variation:
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/marcello/mutations06.jpg

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/marcello/mutations05.jpg
another variation:
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/marcello/mutations06.jpg

Thanks Brad. Is this your school?

[Brad]

Yeah, I did miss a lot! :D By the time I backtrack through all the posts I missed, there'll be two more to read, lol.

[Brad]

Thanks Brad. Is this your school?

No, that's just the only online pics I could find :D It's from http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html
my favorite internal style website :)

[Chang Style Novice]

In Atlanta, the first thing I'd try to do is find a student of David C.K. Lin who is teaching publicly. Master Lin is only teaching privately to advanced shaui chiao folks these days, but I'll put dollars to donuts that one of those guys he teaches privately will be willing to teach you.

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/ is the main site of his organization, and davidlin94 at us.sina dot com is his email address. He's very forthcoming about his art, don't be afraid to write.

There will be absolutely no question that you are learning an effective martial art with the strongest possible lineage.

[huafist]

A student of David Lin would be a great find. One of the guys I train Shaolin-Do with studied under Victor Ke. Shuai Chiao is very practical. "When in a fight hit the guy with the biggest rock you can find, and you can't get a bigger rock than the earth."

[Oso]

I'll second that suggestion.

I forgot all about Master Lin. I went to a seminar of his a couple of years ago. Great stuff.

[shaolin kungfu]

I'll third it.
If you can find a good shuai chiao teacher, go with that.

[Chang Style Novice]

You see what I mean? We NEVER agree around here like that!

[norther practitioner]

I'd go with the sc too.... but thats just me :D

[Skummer]

Originally posted by RedSkaNite
Well I have decided to look for something else. This school MAY be O.K., but you guys have convinced me that I don't have the knowledge to be sure of judging that accuratly for myself. I will look for something less controversial for my first MA. I am going to sit in on a Wing Chun class tonight, and on a Shinkendo/Aikibujutsu class later this week. Thanx for all of the info!

Greetings redskanite,

I was wondering what you hope to gain from martial arts. Self-defense? Forms? Just a hobby?

The reason I ask is because a lot of schools are geared towards hobbyist practitioners. That is, they don't do any kind of sparring, etc.

I live in Marietta myself, and I've been around to a lot of the schools in the area. Currently I'm a student at the Atlanta Judo Academy, but I was a student at the SD school in Marietta for 8 years. Also, my father was a student of Francis Fong in wing chun.

I know lots of people in lots of different schools. If you let me know what exactly you're looking for, perhaps I can hook you up.

[RedSkaNite]

Well Skummer, that is quite an offer! I will take you up on that. I am mainly getting into martial arts for two reasons. For health of course, and because it is something I have always wanted to do. I am 5'10" and 235 pounds. I am overweight for sure, but I also have alot of muscle (my career would be about equivilent to heavy construction). I am NOT graceful at all. To be honest alot of the Kung Fu stuff is a bit intimidating to me. I am not too concerned with self defense, as I haven't ever even seen the need to be in in a fight since high school, largish guys don't often get mugged. I do however, want to eventually be competitive. At least I want to go as far as sparring. I am not starting a martial art to learn a fancy dance!

Grappling (Judo, Aikido, Jujitsu) appeals to me because it seems that it would be playing to my strengths. OTOH, Kung Fu also appeals to me because it would work on my weaknesses. What do you think?

[Oso]

RSN, if you grappling appeals to you and you can find a student of Master Lin who is teaching then you will not go wrong.

just don't pass up an opportunity to check it out, follow the link that CSN put up and see what you can find.

again, good luck.

[Skummer]

Originally posted by RedSkaNite
Well Skummer, that is quite an offer! I will take you up on that. I am mainly getting into martial arts for two reasons. For health of course, and because it is something I have always wanted to do. I am 5'10" and 235 pounds. I am overweight for sure, but I also have alot of muscle (my career would be about equivilent to heavy construction). I am NOT graceful at all. To be honest alot of the Kung Fu stuff is a bit intimidating to me. I am not too concerned with self defense, as I haven't ever even seen the need to be in in a fight since high school, largish guys don't often get mugged. I do however, want to eventually be competitive. At least I want to go as far as sparring. I am not starting a martial art to learn a fancy dance!

Grappling (Judo, Aikido, Jujitsu) appeals to me because it seems that it would be playing to my strengths. OTOH, Kung Fu also appeals to me because it would work on my weaknesses. What do you think?

I'm 6'4" 260# myself. My suggestion would be to take a simple, readily practical style such as judo or shuai chiao first. Then, after a few years, you can move to the more "elegant" stuff.

Understand that I do tai chi and bagua regularly, and they definitely improve overall agility, fluidity, and connectedness of the body. However, whithout the practical training methods of judo, I'd never be able to apply the others.

Thing is, even if you practice just for health reasons/hobby, the ability to apply actual learned technique on a resisting opponent is one of the best things about MA. It lets you know you're improving. But if you do prefer the solo forms thing, then the SD school probably teaches more froms than any other in the area.

As to the shuai chiao others have mentioned, I contacted master Lin a while back myself about watching a class, etc. He teaches at the chinese cultural center over near buford highway. That was just way too far for me to travel in rush hour traffic. That's why I ended up with judo.

Some local schools with excellent reputations:

http://www.tigeracademy.com/
Wing Chun kung fu, Muay Thai, and BJJ are taught here.

www.Atlantajudoacademy.com
I go to the woodstock dojo.

www.atlantabudokan.com
Lots of techniques, but no sparring.

www.apittman.com
Gao style bagua and hsing-yi. I hear good things about mr. Pittman, but apparently they don't spar.

And of course, if you happen to be closer to buford hwy than I, DEFINITELY check out David Lin's shuai chiao place.

If you have any questions about a particular school, chances are I know someone who goes there, so just ask or pm me...

[Kumkuat]

I think pittman is moving to greece permanently. So no use going there.

[RedSkaNite]

I live in the Kennesaw area, so the SC is out for me as well. For those of you unfamiliar with Atlanta...don't mess with the traffic here. Worst I have ever seen, and I am from L.A.

I am sitting in on a class at Atlanta Budokan tonight. I will check out the Judo Academy, Woddstock would be great! Thanks alot, Skummer.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


As for the straight sword, you are also right in that her hand position was incorrect. As for the hand movement, I don't know the form so I don't know if she performed it correctly or not. I have Master Eric Smith performing the same form back in 1982 on video. I'll watch that form tonight and let you know what he does with his hands in comparison to the woman on the internet.

I went and watched the video of Master Smith performing the same form and it was different. Same form, mind you, but his guard hand was more active, not static like the woman on the website, plus his movements were much more fluid. Unfortunatley I don't know how to upload video to the internet.

[Ground Dragon]

I guess it's worth mentioning if you're interested in grappling. Romero `Jacaré' Cavalcanti, a 6th degree black belt in brazilian jiu jutsu, is in Atlanta. Here is a link to some info about his school. Can't say I know anything about the school, but I've heard great things about Jacare and his students. Not to mention he's a 6th degree black belt in bjj.

http://bjj.org/academies/jacare.html

[MasterKiller]

I went and watched the video of Master Smith performing the same form and it was different. Same form, mind you, but his guard hand was more active, not static like the woman on the website, plus his movements were much more fluid. Unfortunatley I don't know how to upload video to the internet.

Did you happen to notice the positioning of the fingers on the free hand? In a straight-sword form, the index and middle fingers should be extended, and the ring and pinky fingers are bent. The thumb is closed over the bent fingers to hold them in place.

Was Smith's thumb sticking out like the girl in the video? I know it sounds nit-picky, but my Sifu stresses these things when we do forms...head is a certain way, feet are a certain, hands are a certain way...

Just like the guy doing the broadsword form, it looks like she just memorized the moves without having been taught proper techniques.

How many forms does the average SD student learn a year? 10? 20? 30?? I just don't see how you can take the time to learn a form properly if you are moving on to something else every few days. It took me 6 months to learn Kwan Dao properly, and 9 months to learn 3-section staff well enough not to beat myself silly.

[Shaolin-Do]

There are people who do that... I study quite a bit outside of SD.....

Btw, why not just say guard hand is supposed to be in "secret sword"?
:)

[MasterKiller]

Btw, why not just say guard hand is supposed to be in "secret sword"?

Well, because if it's not taught correctly, then calling it secret sword wouldn't mean anything to JP. He might think secret sword means having your thumb sticking straight out like the chick in the video, not to mention how she constantly flexes her index and middle fingers throughout the form. Maybe to her, that is "secret sword."

Besides, my sifu calls it "Sword Fingers" or "Sword-Charm position".

Anyway, look at this monk's free hand (http://store6.yimg.com/I/martialartsmart_1743_19364490) on the cover...that's what I'm talking about.

[Chang Style Novice]

Mind if I ask "of what conceivable importance is the way you arrange the fingers of your non-sword bearing hand, except perhaps maintaining some kind of orthodoxy"?

[MasterKiller]

Mind if I ask "of what conceivable importance is the way you arrange the fingers of your non-sword bearing hand, except perhaps maintaining some kind of orthodoxy"?
Because there is a right way to it, and a wrong way to do it.
The student in the video I saw did it the wrong way, just as the broadsword student blocked behind his neck the wrong way, and the spear-using student struck with the spear the wrong way.

In the case of the straightsword, the second hand is used as a counter-balance for the sword hand, and moves as if a second sword were in fact in the hand. So, you position your fingers to represent the sword.

It's proper technique, and a student who is taught properly would demonstrate it. It might not get your head lopped off like the error in the broadsword form, but it should still be done correctly.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


Did you happen to notice the positioning of the fingers on the free hand? In a straight-sword form, the index and middle fingers should be extended, and the ring and pinky fingers are bent. The thumb is closed over the bent fingers to hold them in place.

Was Smith's thumb sticking out like the girl in the video? I know it sounds nit-picky, but my Sifu stresses these things when we do forms...head is a certain way, feet are a certain, hands are a certain way...

Just like the guy doing the broadsword form, it looks like she just memorized the moves without having been taught proper techniques.

How many forms does the average SD student learn a year? 10? 20? 30?? I just don't see how you can take the time to learn a form properly if you are moving on to something else every few days. It took me 6 months to learn Kwan Dao properly, and 9 months to learn 3-section staff well enough not to beat myself silly.

I forgot to mention that part. His gurad hand, or secret sword, were correct. thumb pressed agasint the first knuckles of the left ring and pinky fingers. Just like the way is was taught to me.

I don't know about the average SD student. I learn about 5 forms a year. As for learning them properly that is up to me and my training outside of school. I'm still learning some of my forms that I've been working on for a year. I do Pa Kua every day to try to glean more applications from the techniques. My sifu moves on with the understanding that I must still work them up on my own. I constantly come back with questions; he shows me one or two techniques that he sees from the form and leaves me to find differnt applications as well.

BTW, I don't know 3-section staff, but I think it would take me much longer than 9 months to learn it well enough no to beat myself silly with it. :)

[Starchaser107]

Because its also used as a weapon (thats why its called sword finger) to strike pressure points , having the fingers flailing isnt going to train your hand well to execute anything...unless of course you don't care about ever applying it... but even still aesthetically it looks ugly to have fingers incorrect, if you have no concern for martial application, at least make the thing look good.

[huafist]

Masterkiller- we call it sword hand and it should look just like the picture you posted. In the first 3 years of Shaolin-Do one will learn about 21 forms. Of course the first forms are very short. I currently learn 1-3 forms per year, but they are much longer.

Chang Style Novice you raise an interesting point. If a track runners form is slightly off, their stride and speed will greatly diminish. It is possible that not having your hands or feet just so will diminish power in a strike. But the non-sword bearing hand? I don't see this diminishing anything other than asthetics.

Often times it seems we are standing in the middle of a vast garden, but all we can do is focus on one leaf and ask "shouldn't that be 38 degrees and not 45 degrees to the left?" The importance of training a form is knowing what you are doing and why you are doing it. I admit that many people in Shaolin-Do and other arts I have seen do not know why they do what they do in a form, past my teacher said do it like this.

[MasterKiller]

Because its also used as a weapon (thats why its called sword finger) to strike pressure points , having the fingers flailing isnt going to train your hand well to execute anything...

Not everyone teaches it this way, but I have certainly heard this argument before.

EDIT---I'd also like to add that sticking your thumb out is always a bad idea because of the potential for breaks, but in a sword fight you just might lose it if you don't keep it tucked in.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by huafist


Often times it seems we are standing in the middle of a vast garden, but all we can do is focus on one leaf and ask "shouldn't that be 38 degrees and not 45 degrees to the left?" The importance of training a form is knowing what you are doing and why you are doing it. I admit that many people in Shaolin-Do and other arts I have seen do not know why they do what they do in a form, past my teacher said do it like this.

Well said HF.

[MasterKiller]

and other arts I have seen do not know why they do what they do in a form, past my teacher said do it like this.
Word.

[Lao_Peng_You]

When I first started in martial arts, I started in SD. Although the instructors were nice, there were several reasons why I left. First off, I will say the performances in these vids were better than any done at the school I attended (except the internal stuff still looked bad). Anyway here is a list of what I did not like:
1) Most people did forms wrong, and were never corrected. In fact, i would characterize it as sloppy.
2) The way people were taught to spar was not helpfull. In short, the methods of fighting did not correlate to what was taught via forms.
3) The spirit was agressive, not balanced. People often mistook agression for skill.
4) Although there was lip service paid to circularity, everyone there fought in a straight line like Karate, but Karate prob. does it better.
5) People were delusional about what they learned. If they learned a tiger form, they would think they were black tiger masters, same if they learned Ba Gua, etc.

I also think that SD is the ultimate in why the modern *dojo* does not work for Kung Fu in general. It sacrifices the spirit of the art for mass appeal. That is my opinion, anyway.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Lao_Peng_You
When I first started in martial arts, I started in SD. Although the instructors were nice, there were several reasons why I left. First off, I will say the performances in these vids were better than any done at the school I attended (except the internal stuff still looked bad). Anyway here is a list of what I did not like:
1) Most people did forms wrong, and were never corrected. In fact, i would characterize it as sloppy.
2) The way people were taught to spar was not helpfull. In short, the methods of fighting did not correlate to what was taught via forms.
3) The spirit was agressive, not balanced. People often mistook agression for skill.
4) Although there was lip service paid to circularity, everyone there fought in a straight line like Karate, but Karate prob. does it better.
5) People were delusional about what they learned. If they learned a tiger form, they would think they were black tiger masters, same if they learned Ba Gua, etc.

I also think that SD is the ultimate in why the modern *dojo* does not work for Kung Fu in general. It sacrifices the spirit of the art for mass appeal. That is my opinion, anyway.

LPY,

If you don't mind me asking, where did you learn and who was your sifu? I also left SD for a while for some of the same reasons; especially the dillusional students and the mistaking of aggressivness for skill; however, that sems to be a problem for several MA schools especially the aggressivness/skill problem.

[Shaolin-Do]

Some of the students seem to think this way, but my sifu doesnt...

1. Situational for your sifu. Here in town sifu corrects us, but even after countless corrections some of the students still are very sloppy.
2. Sparring - On occasion sifu will say 2 orr 3 techniques for 1 side, 2 or 3 for the other, only practice those that go around. Sometimes in sparring class we do 50% animal sparring, or style sparring what have you. (drunken, mantis, tiger, ect)
3.Once again, These are students, not sifu. Thats why they are students. Then again, it may have been different where you learned
4. Once again, Some students here do some dont. Then again the "bagua" vids WD put out werent bagua, but in fact TKD! Or so says the mob. Bagua of all things being mistooken for a linear art form? mmm.... Cant say I still hold much esteem in peoples views of this point, more or less just see for myself.
5.Different strokes for different folks, cant say it enough. You must have just lived in an area where a bunch of pudwankers wanted to learn kung fu.

[Lao_Peng_You]

Judge,

I don't want to bad mouth someone anonymously on a public forum. Give your email, and I'll tell you.

SD,
I have no problem with what you know, just giving my own ion on something. However, all SD folks that I know may walk a circle, but in application I have never seen someone use proper ba gua footwork. BTW, walking around someone in a circle is not really ba gua footwork. Can i ask, what range do you apply angular, half stepping, Z stepping, triangle stepping, toe in toe out stepping, etc. when you practice ba gua?

When you practice mantis, which jings do you find most practical? Same with tiger?

Also, I understand that people have different appitudes for any endevor, so I don't have a criticism there. To tell you the truth, I don't really care too much about SD, and if people like it, good for them.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Lao_Peng_You
Judge,

I don't want to bad mouth someone anonymously on a public forum. Give your email, and I'll tell you.



I respect that decision. Here's my non-work e-mail:

tennjd2000@yahoo.com

Thanks.

[Oso]

Mind if I ask "of what conceivable importance is the way you arrange the fingers of your non-sword bearing hand, except perhaps maintaining some kind of orthodoxy"?

cuz you can't shoot chi balls accurately if you don't.:rolleyes:

everyone knows that

;)

**edit**

and, besides, that's the way jesus did it.

[themeecer]

Ok .. I read through this thread ... much. much more constructive than others I have seen. I don't want to sound too critical of the forms I have seen ... but I see some glaring differences between what they did and what we do and teach at our school. And heck .. we are supposedly doing the same forms. Let me add a little to what Judge Pen said...

1st Black Tiger: "Black Tiger Rips the Heart" She is probably the best SD practitioner on this site. This form was done too fast for my taste with not enough emphasis on her stances, but other than that it would be the best of this set.

I think the gentleman that did the monkey form was the best on the site. (Didn't he look glaringly like Alphonso Rivera when he smiled at the end of that?) I have a gripe with this gals stances and her "claws." It almost looked like she was poking her opponents in the eyes instead of delivering a tiger claw. My teacher had an argument with another teacher about how the hands should be held. The other teacher had the "claws" really close to the hand and basically used them for scratching .... my teacher had the claws more out and used them for a more tearing action. The other teacher finally got an apple and held it in his hand and took a swing with it using his tiger claw .. leaving 3 deep grooves in it. My teacher picked up another apple and used his tiger claw on it and split the apple in half. I tell you this to say that sometimes I might sound critical on minor points .. but I think they make all the difference.


14th Crane: My only critique of this guy doing this form is that his sweeps didn't incorprate his hips; thus no power to put someone down.

I have never seen this form till I got on this site. I got excited when I did .. thinking what I could do with it. I am not sure what it is supposed to really look like .. but I see some potential in it.


3rd Black Tiger: "Black Tiger Flips the Body" Looked wrong too me. Too fast and sloppy. I was not taught to land on the same leg that I kicked with prior to throwing the spinning back kick. Difficult to do and impressive that he can do it, but not in the form as I know it.

Yes I agree .. that looked kind of funky.


China Hand. I don't know why he is calling this form CH. I know it as "5 directional palm." As represented it is very sloppy.

I 100% agree .. that looked pathetic. I had to watch that a couple times before I recognized it. He obviously hasn't done much iron hand or he would learn to keep those fingers steady when he does those palm strikes. That form along with connecting fist are two of my favorite forms before blackbelt.


Short Form: Not a good representation. Stances too weak. No weight distribution or hip involvement on his kicks. Looked like a white sash learning the material.

Stances look horrible here. Bleh!! And at the rate he was going it would take him 10 minutes to do the 30 short forms. They are supposed to be done in under 3 minutes.


Stomping Drunk: Hsiang Chung Li of the eight druken immortals. The guy put too much emphasis on being drunk and not enough on generating power. This is a very powerful form when done right.

Not learned this one. Didn't see much here. About your comment .. I wish other people would put more emphasis on acting drunk. I get tired of watching these guys at the tournaments stagger as a drunk then throw normal punches and kicks. Those need to be drunken as well. I'm a non-drinker .. but I know what a drunk looks like .. and that isn't it.


Tiger/Crane: Horrible. Nothing more to be said.

Amen.


Tai Chi sword: Hand was not held right and her stepping and weight distribution was off. Not horrible, but not as good as it could be.

Yes .. the thumb isn't touching the last two fingers. I just tried doing it her way .. I can't even force myself to do that.


Pa Kua: This is Master Grooms. I do some things differently. I step differently. A little higher. He seemed choppy. My understanding is that Pa Kua is very flowing. My arms are not as stiff or extended when walking the circle.

I step a lot differently, as well. There are 64 rules to Pa Kua and I saw him break some of those. Yes, Pau Qua is not supposed to be "jerky." It may be from "his ability to achieve snapping power in almost any technique," that the site mentions.


Hsing-I linkage: 2nd best of the set. I probably move my body a little more when I do this form. The concept of bringing your entire body with the technique, but when your 260 lbs you can find other ways to generate power.

I wish the site had sound on it. I love the maniacal laugh you do in here. It doesn't seem like he is using the stomping power for his chi delivery. (Couldn't think of a better way to state that) It looks like he is just placing his feet down. My punches land at the same time I stomp. (Hey this is also what they do in professional wrestling. Hehe)


Yang Tai Chi 64: We are taught to do it very slow. Her one-legged turn is jarring but since the rest of the time she is on one leg I can't really comment on whether her steps or weight distribution comported with what I know to be proper.

We are taught to do it once should take 25-30 minutes. But no one wants to watch a video of someone barely moving.

My favorite of the forms shown is the Buddha Fist. I don't know this one but the gal looks to have had some training in dance.

[Fred Sanford]

just curious. have any of you SDers ever been to check out a hsing-i or bagua school?

[themeecer]

just curious. have any of you SDers ever been to check out a hsing-i or bagua school?

No I haven't. I would love to, though. I'd like to go to a Tai Chi school as well. The only other schools here I have been able to observe were strickly hard styles and mostly TKD.

[Brad]

If you want to see what other Bagua systems form practice looks like, you should check out this tape: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/bagua/kang_bgcourse1.htm
It's very well done. Lots of demonstrations by various people in the first half, and some instruction in the second half.