PM Strength training

[PAMantis]

I know there was a thread for this somewhere, but I can't find it now, and I have a few questions.

1. Are the grip strengtheners that you can buy at any sports store any good for building effective grip strength? I have been using one for about aweek and I can already see a difference in my fore arms, but is this from the gripper, the fingertip pushups, or both?

2. How can I strengthen my kicks? I can leg press an absurd amount, but I don't feel that my kicks are powerful. Is it a different muscle group?

3. How can I strengthen my legs to hold the Horse stance? I can hold it for somewhere between 30 seconds and a minute, but for my first test I have to balance a staff on my legs while in Horse stance for 1 min 30 sec. What can I do to work on getting there? Obviously practice the stance as low as possible, but is there anything else, i.e. running, squats . . . that will work well?

4. More generally, I have let my body go to shi t in the past few years. I need to remove a beer gut and the beginings of man breasts (exagerating a bit not quite man breasts yet). I want to whip my ass into shape quick. Any suggestions that will also give me practicle strength and excersize?

Thanks in advance. I am looking to maximize my training to increase strength that will help with my PM training.

Andrew

[BeiTangLang]

My shot of opinions for your questions:

1. Are the grip strengtheners that you can buy at any sports store any good for building effective grip strength? I have been using one for about aweek and I can already see a difference in my fore arms, but is this from the gripper, the fingertip pushups, or both?

Effective grip strength,..yes. Applicable to mantis, to a lesser extent (imo). to effectively enhance your grip for matis apps, you need an excersize that simulates the same grab techniques you use.

2. How can I strengthen my kicks? I can leg press an absurd amount, but I don't feel that my kicks are powerful. Is it a different muscle group?

For me, the best way to strengthen my kicks has been to practice the kicks themselves. squating, hack-squating, leg-extensions etc., using several "wheels" will strengthen your muscles, but effective use of what you have is more important than having more of something you cannot use effectively.

3. How can I strengthen my legs to hold the Horse stance? I can hold it for somewhere between 30 seconds and a minute, but for my first test I have to balance a staff on my legs while in Horse stance for 1 min 30 sec. What can I do to work on getting there? Obviously practice the stance as low as possible, but is there anything else, i.e. running, squats . . . that will work well?

Practicing the stance itself is the best way to improve it (for me).
Lower is not practical for me. Just trying to hold the pose/stance as I use it in the art has worked best (again, for me personaly).

4. More generally, I have let my body go to shi t in the past few years. I need to remove a beer gut and the beginings of man breasts (exagerating a bit not quite man breasts yet). I want to whip my ass into shape quick. Any suggestions that will also give me practicle strength and excersize?

I have done the same thing & am getting things "back in order" myself. Losing quite a bit of weight has been a good start.
Going back to the gym has also mad ea bit of difference. Working on practicing my forms every day has also been an eye-opener as to what I remember being able to do "back in the day" vs recent days vs. what I see myself being able to do again.
Good luck in your journey. Mine is still painfully dredging along, but I see improvements every day. That is all I can ask for & all you should as well. Try too hard & you will burn yourself out; pick a path & stick with it!
Best Wishes,
BTL

[Robinf]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=21010

There's the link. I really can't prescribe you to do anything. Personal training over the net is impossible. Age, health, posture and physical shape are key factors. You need to choose what works well for you or talk to your doctor about it (while you go for your annual physical--hint)

Personally:

1) I don't know about grip strengtheners. I allow my workout to handle that. I also use those balls you swirl around in your hand.

2) Building strength in your legs through weight training will help, but practicing the actual kick will make it better. You need to have the mechanics of the kick correct in order to get the kick to work for you.

3) I'm currently doing this one myself. I put on a moderate amount of weight onto a bar, then get into a horse stance with the bar on my shoulders (behind my head is more comfortable for me, but in front will work well and might help keep your back straighter). Hold this for as long as you can. I do this 4 times with a break in between of about 45 - 60 seconds.

4) Practical strength can be achieved doing the moves you do, but with weights and using totally correct form/movement. I personally like pullups, dips, leg raises and twists, iron bridge as body weight exercises. I then break down my workout from there into muscle groups and do traditional strength training.

You do need to improve your cardio respitory system in order to keep up. I do a combination of sprint and long distance training--I'm doing running, biking and swimming for a triathlon, but this can also be done on the heavy bag and with a jump rope.

[ursa major]

PAMantis, when standing up if you look down and can't see your feet because your stomache gets in the way then your work is cut out for you. Simple solution is eat less and train more. When in weight loss mode if I feel hungry I'll do a form or some drill I find that if I break a sweat before I eat, I tend to eat less. If doing a class at night I usually do not eat dinner and after class do not feel like I have missed a meal. I drink alot of Gatorade which helps.

You may find that losing weight has a similar effect as increasing muscle mass. In spring 2001 I lost about 25 pounds and to my surprise found my cardio and strength improved quite noticeably. Later I picked up a 25 pound dumbell and was surprised to see how much (unecessary) weight I had been carrying around.

regards,
UM.

[PAMantis]

Lol, UM I'm not that bad yet. Just a bit of a gut. I can still see my feet. At least I can see my toes, and can tell which shoes I have on. It is funny though how working out decreases my appetite. I would think that it would increase, oh well. Thanks for the advice BTL, RobinF and UM.

[Mr.Binx]

Originally posted by PAMantis
Are the grip strengtheners that you can buy at any sports store any good for building effective grip strength? I have been using one for about aweek and I can already see a difference in my fore arms, but is this from the gripper, the fingertip pushups, or both?

As a personal anecdote, that may or may not be helpful to you, I actually researched this subject, personally, not more than 2 months ago as my basic fong sao (grabbing hand) and dieu sao (intercepting hand) techniques were greatly lacking proper application due to an absence of finger-tip strength in my hands.

I found that common hand strengtheners (http://webpages.charter.net/meta/images/grip.gif) were lacking when it came to increasing the strength of the musclegroups near the fingertips. Eaglcatchers (http://webpages.charter.net/meta/images/eaglecatcher.jpg) came a little closer to what I was looking for and was fairly helpful but I still had issues with actively working the musclegroups in the outermost fingertip knuckle. Oddly enough, I found my salvation in obtaining the degree of workout I was looking for in an old guitar case via a finger-strengthening device (http://webpages.charter.net/meta/images/guitargrip.gif) created soley for strenghtening the digits of guitarists. For the previously mentioned two techniques (dieu sao and fong sao) I was trying to improve my finger strength for, it was right on. I was also rather pleased as I could perform some of the same excercises on the guitar finger-strengthener that I could also perform on the preceeding two devices used to increase mid-knuckle and base-knuckle strength. There are most-likely excercises your sifu can suggest that would be just as effective (or possibly more so) without the use of purchased gear. I hope this information is helpful to you in some degree.

[PAMantis]

Mr. Binx,

My sifu has indead suggested some excercizes, but they aren not very easy to do while stuck in traffic, or in a cube with another person sitting looking right at my back. I was looking for a supplimental strength training while in situations that I do not have my full ROM. Most of the excercizes that my sifu suggested utilized my dynamic tension and included my arms as well. That info is great though. Thanks! I saw that thing and passed it up cause I thought it looked useless. I guess I know better now.

Andrew

[bung bo]

i used to practice all my stances with a backpack full of books and after a while it began to wear out my knees. another skinny guy in my class has complained of knee pain. i think it is because we both don't have a lot of tissue around that area. just be careful

[yu shan]

From my experience with doing stances the wrong way leads to knee pain and damage. Years of practicing Wah Lum`s stance`s lead to severe knee pain. This due to improper alignment and plain negligent in their teaching. Wah Lum`s stances are southern, do other southern styles have this knee pain?

I like the Northern Style stance training, my knees don`t hurt anymore, and I`m quicker and stronger...

[ursa major]

Originally posted by yu shan
From my experience with doing stances the wrong way leads to knee pain and damage. Years of practicing Wah Lum`s stance`s lead to severe knee pain. This due to improper alignment and plain negligent in their teaching. Wah Lum`s stances are southern, do other southern styles have this knee pain?
I like the Northern Style stance training, my knees don`t hurt anymore, and I`m quicker and stronger...

Hello Yu shan, PAMantis

I can't speak for Wah Lum but have trained southern style for many years (I switched to PM about six years ago). I have no trouble with ankles or knees and I've been training awhile (Bruce Lee was still alive when I started guess that makes my knees pretty old... where is that WD40 anyway... haha).

I don't think the south vs. north has much to do with stances messing up your knees. I think that using stances in such a way as to hyper-pronate your knee(s) will do them in -- it is only a matter of time. Also, playing your forms incorrectly, which is to say with the wrong cadence and execution, will in the long term, have a negative effect on your joints. I see it often especially with kids. I have seen stance training that would horrify any physiotherapist and will 100% lead to knee problems down the road. Only a matter of time.

BTW: I play much of the 7 Star forms in low stances check out WHF's books he is scraping the ground on some occasions -- but if you look closer you'll see he does not hyper-pronate either.

Bottom line is where possible keep the knee over the foot and your joints will thank-you.

regards,
UM.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Nick8stepPM
...will help relieve some pain, not tottally but green tea does help.
Nick

Keep in mind many of our joints have regenerative capacity and can repair themselves all that is required is continued proper use. In other words end the inappropriate use of the joint and some correction of the joint can be expected.

I've corrected people before on habitual pronation during training and within a short time their knee and hip pain went away. Not always the case but possibe. Heavy doses of glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfate can also help depending on the joint. I used this last year when I wrecked my back it helped my chronic sore shoulder instead hahaha...

my .02 cents worth,
UM.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by yu shan
From my experience with doing stances the wrong way leads to knee pain and damage. Years of practicing Wah Lum`s stance`s lead to severe knee pain. This due to improper alignment and plain negligent in their teaching. Wah Lum`s stances are southern, do other southern styles have this knee pain?

I like the Northern Style stance training, my knees don`t hurt anymore, and I`m quicker and stronger...

Man you just don't stop do you?You just answered your own question. Proper alignement of the knees prevent wear and tear of the ligaments and tendons. Probably the most common injury that I've seen in most styles who have improper posture damage their miniscus or however you spell it.

No southern styles do not have the same pain unless they practice stances incorrectly. The principle is basicaly the same and they apply to all kung fu. If you don't beleive me go to the southern forum and ask.

Low stances do not take anything away from anyone. Look at taiji among toher styles.

With all due respect I think that you are closed minded and see mantis as the only true way.

Oh and by the way I've been doing wl for over 6 years now and my knees are still going strong.

I'm not going to take this further in public so I'll leave it at that.

[NorthernMantis]

I like the Northern Style stance training, my knees don`t hurt anymore, and I`m quicker and stronger...

Oh really.. go tell that to a southern mantis practitioner and see what he or she says. With all this "northern is superior" talk you remind me of ego extraordinaire/goktimus.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
... are closed minded and see mantis as the only true way...


Careful you'll let the secret out !! Besides if everyone did Mantis who would be left to lord it over ? hahaha

UM.

[NorthernMantis]

Ok so this thread won't veer off into the wrong direction I will start a new thread.