One Hand Becomes Many Hands

[mantis108]

Hi Brendan, Sifu Cottrell and All,

I think we raised an very interesting point on 2 seperate threads with similar questions. So I believe it would be easier to answer them together with a new thread. Hope you don't mind.

First a recap for Brendan's post:

<<< Brendan wrote:

Well 108 has brought up a very interesting point.
I agree that in this art there are definitely certain techniques that are to be applied only a specific intended target.
However, there has always been in my Tanglang fighting training 'Plan-B' options for many attacks and also many attacks that can be applied to several spots. Many attacks are certainly only to be applied in one specific manner but there are many that have multiple appliction options (eg; arm locks foot combinations that work on either hand or leg, either inside or outside).
This certainly may not be the case in the Taiji Tanglang practiced by 108, but it is in the case of the Tanglang I have learned.
I'm certain that you would be most unimpressed with the amount of applications I would show for most movements in even the most basic form such as Cha Chui. Though I feel quite fortunate to have been shown so many variations.
Mantis 108 what is your personal experience on this?
I do agree that many people who teach Tanglang teach only an 'approximation'.

In regards to your analysis of the kicks; very nice!

In regards to the uppercut; there are a few kinds including the deeply crooked arm method but they are all quite different to the filing punch.
b.t>>>

to be continued...

Mantis108

[mantis108]

<<<Well 108 has brought up a very interesting point.
I agree that in this art there are definitely certain techniques that are to be applied only a specific intended target.
However, there has always been in my Tanglang fighting training 'Plan-B' options for many attacks and also many attacks that can be applied to several spots.>>>

I understand "Plan-B" and its value. So I do agree with you as it is prudent measure for actually combat situations. But for training purpose geared toward personal growth, it is very important to discern Plan-A and Plan-B IMHO.

<<<Many attacks are certainly only to be applied in one specific manner but there are many that have multiple appliction options (eg; arm locks foot combinations that work on either hand or leg, either inside or outside).>>>

Very true and I appreciate the example. It is important not to have tunnel vision while using techniques because situation changes quite drastically all the time. This would be the "flexible framwork" that Sifu Cottrell brought up. My opinion is that plan B is a derivative of plan A meaning plan B doesn't come to existance without plan A nor comes before plan A (well.. there's always exception). This is important in my view for Mantis instructors to bear in mind. The message in plan A has to be clear while the contingency in plan B must come in full support of that message. In other words, if you are using hook-grab-pluck, you would want to able to use it in conjuction with striking, kicking, takedown, and grappling as finish(es). The finishes comes from the hook-grab-pluck (plan A). We also have to ask ourself whether 8 strikes and 8 forbiden strikes has a place in mantis if we embrace approximation? In the Black Tiger Steals Heart, doesn't it targets the solar plex which is one of the 8 forbiden strikes? In a pretty much elementary punch, the Ba Da Ba Bu Da already is already ingrained in mantis. Is it not our duty as instructors to reinforce this wisdom of the pass masters?

<<<This certainly may not be the case in the Taiji Tanglang practiced by 108, but it is in the case of the Tanglang I have learned. >>>

Well, it would be the same case I would think. After all Tanglang is Tanglang, don't you think? :)

<<<Having said that I thing
I'm certain that you would be most unimpressed with the amount of applications I would show for most movements in even the most basic form such as Cha Chui. Though I feel quite fortunate to have been shown so many variations.>>>

Not at all, I agreed with you that even in the most basic form(s), there are hidden treasures although my frame of reference would rather be the 7 hands form instead. I think you are fortunate to have been shown the variations indeed. In fact, I would love to learn of those as well. ;) It all contributes to the overall mantis experience IMHO. :)

<<<Mantis 108 what is your personal experience on this?>>>

I believe Sifu Cottrell draw on WHF's teaching about one hand becomes many hands (five in WHF's view). My favorite example is the Go-Lu-Tsai of course. I personally think it is true that mantis hands are like the plum blossom [shameless plug :) ] each has 3 to 5 petals at least. This was once upon a time no more than a cliche to me, but now it is clear like the shinning moon. To be honest, I have had help form the 7 Stars camps to see this as well. Also, people who have worked with me (ie Tainan) know that we tend to construct traps and capitalize on counters. That's where the variations come in handy. That is of course through experience and it can not be acquired through instructions only. It is first training then learn.

<<<I do agree that many people who teach Tanglang teach only an 'approximation'.>>>

This is one of the reasons why I insisted on being precise in Mantis teaching (the message). Not only are people teaching Tanglang in approximation but also "borrow" from other sources such as martial art magazines. BTW, have you notice how most of the techniques shown on magazines are pretty much looking exactly like each other lately? It is not that applications from outside sources are bad for mantis but if it is done without a clear understanding of what is the traditional and original teaching, we soon will see McMantis and JKDized Mantis claiming to be the really deal. Frankly, I think it would be a disservice to the mantis masters at large. Therefore, we need to speak up and at the same time be on guard so that true mantis skills won't be lost or transformed into mere kickboxing plight or MMA clone.

<<<In regards to your analysis of the kicks; very nice!>>>

Thank you, it means a lot, Bros. :)

<<<In regards to the uppercut; there are a few kinds including the deeply crooked arm method but they are all quite different to the filing punch.>>>

Yes, I hear you and agreed.

b.t

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[keef321]

Originally posted by mantis108
BTW, have you notice how most of the techniques shown on magazines are pretty much looking exactly like each other lately? It is not that applications from outside sources are bad for mantis but if it is done without a clear understanding of what is the traditional and original teaching, we soon will see McMantis and JKDized Mantis claiming to be the really deal. Frankly, I think it would be a disservice to the mantis masters at large. Therefore, we need to speak up and at the same time be on guard so that true mantis skills won't be lost or transformed into mere kickboxing plight or MMA clone.



Hi mantis108,

I remember looking in a shop at a mag before I got back into martial arts again and thought....same old thing. I know that in the end we are only human, have only so many limbs etc so things have to haver certain things in common but the styles dont show any difference in flavour! Luckily I found mantis which I feel honoured to have found (especially as I have a great sifu). Its kinda strange you speak to many martial artists and unless you do escrima/kali/BJJ/ground fighting/JKD/MMA/JKD concepts etc then you are instantly dismissed as studing an impracticle art. I think this is due to people not understanding the art they study therefore not finding what they want therefore reverting back to good old western thinking. You watch people sparring and they all spar the same? Ohhh well, this MMA stuff is old hat anyway, Wang Lang did it years ago ;-)

I`m sure you have had this discussion before so I wont blabber on too much but I cant stress enough how happy I am to have found a TMA which is in my view astestically pleasing with its forms and flavour but at the same time practicle.

Just a view from a new starter :-)

[B.Tunks]

108,

Thanks for the response.

I agree totally on all counts and its clear we have the same ideas on the matter.

on the following:


Originally posted by mantis108
<We also have to ask ourself whether 8 strikes and 8 forbiden strikes has a place in mantis if we embrace approximation? In the Black Tiger Steals Heart, doesn't it targets the solar plex which is one of the 8 forbiden strikes? In a pretty much elementary punch, the Ba Da Ba Bu Da already is already ingrained in mantis. Is it not our duty as instructors to reinforce this wisdom of the pass masters?
(Mantis108)

I agree here as well. What is meant to be is meant to be or we are corrupting the system. Tactics that have a distinct purpose should only be used in the intended manner. I definitely differentiate between them and their multiple choice brothers.
thanks,
b.t

[mantis108]

It is great that we see more in common than in difference. I appreciate the insight and input that you have shared as well.

While we are on the subject, I wonder what would your outlook for mantis going to be? By that I mean, what's the next stage from here. I am also putting forth this question to everyone. I attempted to make a list of people whom I want to put forth the question to but found that it's way too long a list, lol... So, please all of you who frequent this board, I would love to hear your outlook on Mantis. Where do we go or see ourselves in the next decade with Mantis?

Warm regards

Robert

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis108,
As for where I see things ten years from now, well I have my hopes.

My own projects:
First I would hope that Mantis Quarterly is still here! I would like to see Mantis Quarterly expanding to other languages to make it more accessable.

Second, I hope that more practitioners will be able to read the WHF books. The series of martial Chinese readers I plan to do will most certainly be finished by then and in distribution. I hope that they do what I intend and make both instructors and students able to read and appreciate what WHF wrote.

Hopefully by then I will release a CD Rom of nearly all the books WHF wrote in his lifetime, (with more Tanglang practitioners being able to read them), thus giving the Tanglang community more technical information and insight into Northern Tanglang.

What I see for Tanglang itself:

The MMA phase we have entered will continue to proliferate. The many MMA conpetitions we see now will eventually give way to a few large ones, sponsored by media organizations fueling this trend. As a result, most martial artists will go where the public attention is.

Tanglang will grow in the West. As communication and media continue to be used in both commercial and public forums, the public's knowledge and familarity with Tanglang will increase and this will attract more people to traditional Tanglang even as more arts give in to the MMA phenomena.

Additionally there will be more technical information available on Tanglang in English and other languages. Though this may, as some fear, enable fakes to exist, it will also enable the public to be discerning as to what they are getting and realize when they are not getting real Tanglang.

I believe that the mainland branches of Tanglang will grow in numbers and influence in the West. HK practitioners have had the field pretty much to ourselves, now there will be more choices, opinions and schools of thought. I am coming to a theory as to why the mainland schools are attracting talented instructors from the HK line but I will hold that for later.

There's my start, got to go teach class...

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

I am very impressed with your outlook. To make available WHF's work in English is really an enormous undertaking but I have full confidence in you that it will be done. :) I am also very happy to learn that Mantis Quarterly is gaining good international support. I wish all the best to your various projects. Like you, I am hoping that as mantis takes roots in the west, especially in North America, we'll see more openess, sharing, communication and support among various branches.

Warm regards

Robert

[B.Tunks]

108,

I will really have to think about this before I answer. It is a valid question and worth answering.
b.t

[B.Tunks]

Mantis 108 wrote:


Originally posted by mantis108

While we are on the subject, I wonder what would your outlook for mantis going to be? By that I mean, what's the next stage from here. I am also putting forth this question to everyone.

Where do we go or see ourselves in the next decade with Mantis?
Robert

I dont really have a big picture view for Tanglang as a whole. Where it goes compared to where I would like it to go are probably two different things.

In many ways, things are getting worse. Fraudulence is steadily growing and commercialization are poisoning the art. The last of the great masters are dying or dead and some of those carrying the baton are not worthy. Mantis Boxing is definitely getting watered down and made user friendly all around the world.
In my opinion we need to put the preservation of the art above the pursuit of individual glory. Too many things have already gone to the grave and can never be retrieved.

One positive is the breaking down of some of the ridiculous barriers that existed between the families and individual practitioners. Hopefully this kind of thing can increase.

One thing I would love to see but will not happen with ease (if at all), is for Mantis Boxing to transcend political/national/racial barriers. People need to be more objective and less personal in their assessments.

Historical research into the art needs to adopt genuine modern research techniques in order to put an end to all the mis- information.

In truth I can only see many things getting worse and only a few things getting better, but I am very negative.
B.T

[mantis108]

Lot of good points there. I really appreciate your thoughts on the state of PM in general. Thank you.

Speaking of Fraudulence, my concern would be people taking a form or two (usually the commonly available ones) from any of the mantis lineages and claim they have mantis as part of their systems. This is hard to avoid in the information age. The only thing that can be done is to educate people to beware of that type of schools.

As for the problem of being water down, I think only a stagnet system will become water down. How to keep the system vibrant? Now that is the real question.

Warm regards

Robert

[mantis108]

Thank you for your input as well. :)

Mantis108