trapping overrated

[flaco]

i have had some streetfights, and i have never trapped anyone, so i feel trapoping is way overtrained in jkd and wc, i studied wc for over ten years, and i am an instructor.
all of the b.s trapping drills from a high referense point are bogus, everyone of the can be immediately stopped, by the defender doing a crush punch off the initial pak sau. the whole series of traps gets nullified.
trapping has its place to develope attributes, but should not be trained over and over, it was of use against traditional gung fu guys, or other wc guys. i admit a quick lop can off balance someone, or a good pak, can be an entry, but to make a million trapping drills is useless, wc strategy is not to chase the hands, or immobilize them, the core strategy is to hit, and if a barrier presents itself, get around it, and hit again.
you will never do a pak./da lop/da gum/da in a fight, nor will you do a pak/da pak/da/pak/da etc

there is little power in many of the techniques you see many guys practice, and the opponent is always standing in front of you, because its alwasy another jkd or wc guy trying to defend the techniques

in sparring, it can work, because the other guy trains in martial arts also, and probably in the same art. try to trap a good kyokoshinkai guy,or a thai boxer, or boxer,etc.

again, a good pak can work, but im talking about the 2,3,4 traps sequence, etc, and ending with a guys arms crossed, THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
also, most arts attack and strike simultaneously, not just wc or jkd, that is the biggest lie i have seen stated by wc guys. i train xing i also, they attack and strike, mantis does this, good karate does thia, everyone does,etc.

trapping is a tool in wc, like a speed bag is a tool in boxing, it dvelops a skill, but you most likely will not use that skill in its trained format in a fight

there usually is no reason to trap, like you dont look for a disarm, you dont look for a trap.if you feel a barrier, and your good, you can roll off it or around it, and hit.

[apoweyn]

there usually is no reason to trap, like you dont look for a disarm, you dont look for a trap.if you feel a barrier, and your good, you can roll off it or around it, and hit.

Right. But you're not going to get good at it unless you train it, right? So is your position that trapping shouldn't be trained? That it should be trained differently? Or that it should be trained less?


Stuart B.

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by flaco
[B]i have had some streetfights, and i have never trapped anyone, so i feel trapoping is way overtrained in jkd and wc, i studied wc for over ten years, and i am an instructor.
all of the b.s trapping drills from a high referense point are bogus, everyone of the can be immediately stopped, by the defender doing a crush punch off the initial pak sau. the whole series of traps gets nullified.


Crush punch?




in sparring, it can work, because the other guy trains in martial arts also, and probably in the same art. try to trap a good kyokoshinkai guy,or a thai boxer, or boxer,etc.


Actually trapping a guy that does your own art is the hardest since he has an idea what you're going to do. And while I might agree that trapping boxers present a challenge (though not an insurmountable one) I have no idea why you think trapping a kyokoshinkai guy would be hard. For the record that's the first art I studied. No, I never reached "good" level but I do know enough to have an idea about their fighting style. Nothing in it to make trapping inherently difficult.



also, most arts attack and strike simultaneously, not just wc or jkd, that is the biggest lie i have seen stated by wc guys. i train xing i also, they attack and strike, mantis does this, good karate does thia, everyone does,etc.


I assume you meant to say "defend and strike simultaneously". "Attack and strike" is like saying "attack and attack". ;)

Anyway I think the whole title of this thread has no basis in reality. If anything today trapping is underated. I've run into far more people that say "trapping will never work" than say "trapping will always work".

Regards,

John M. Drake

[yenhoi]

I think your wrong. Trapping does 'work' and "trapping drills" are great for developing "trapping skill," along with many core attributes depending on how the drills are drilled.

Fortunatly, not everyone trains the same exact way. Although you might say, style x trains this way, your statement will not hold true for all schools, teachers, and individuals involved with that particular style x.

Your expierence may be (has been) different. I have trapped hands, legs, elbows, knees, hips, shoulders, and sticks succesfully against resisting opponents.

Saying "trapping" doesnt work or doesnt happen is like saying "throwing" doesnt work or happen. Simply not true.

:eek:

[flaco]

i meant attack and defend at same time

i have personally sparred high level kyokoshinkai guys, and real kyokoshinkai is no joke, and you will not trap them easily, if at all.

trapping has its place, and yes, you need to drill it, BUT NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT MOST SCHOOLS TRAIN IT.

trapping is one basic part of wc, as is chi sau, but the main principle is to hit,if the hands meet resistance, kick, or knee, many jkd ,wc guys spend too much time with the hands, when you spar high level guys from other arts, you will see how hard it is, and if you already have, and have trapped them, i am open to learn from you.

most people in america, box and grapple, these are skills you will meet most in the street, or you will meet wild swings, none of which you will trap.

again, i can see using a pak or lop, but not a sequence.

lets say i punch, and the opponent crosses center with his block, why would i lop? i can hit with my other hand because he crossed center and is open,then follow up with punches, or if his hands get up, knee, or whatever.

trapping is 2 people staying in a medium range,which will rarely happen,it is too close to grappling range

whats lacking in most schools teaching trapping is footwork, and forward energy again, another example
i pak/da, opponent crosses center,i step turning my shoulder, hit him with my head,or shoulder,and keep forward pressure so he has no power, why would i stay at a range and try 3 trap moves?

i can see shin trapping working for sure, but im talking about the bogus hand stuff. anytime someone tries to trap you,hit forward.
he does pak da to me, his rt hand is punch--i left punch over his right, crushing his attack, and gaining the centerline, why would i ever block with a pak, i would always answer with a punch, this is wc mind set. that one punch just destroyed his whole idea of trapping me.
another example of my point is this
we have hrp with rt hands, he pak and jows with his rt to my ear, now the way people train, is that i would block with a tan, and then he would double jut and hit me then gum da, but the second he jows,i must go forward with my head, shoulder, whatever,his circular attack should not need to be blocked, if i go in,i usually can easily come in with a headbutt of that technique.

if he does a pak,why wouldnt i step diagnolly inside his arm, away from the handand round kick inside his shin? trapping as i have seen in most schools, is a defender who stands there and just blocks with different energies,etc. the defender is usually in a upright position, directly in front of the attacker.

in my opinion, after then first year of training, this is a waste of time, unless you add elements as the ones i mentioned.

again, just my experience and opinion.

[flaco]

by the way, i have watched many dog bros tourneys, and guys going all out, i think i maybe saw one trap.

[yenhoi]

Well. Just on the free videos on their site, you can see many 'traps' happening.

Trap flows are as usefull as lock flows. They are drills and drills have their place. Any school or style that puts too much effort into one range or set of techniques or whatever is looking for trouble.

trapping is 2 people staying in a medium range,which will rarely happen,it is too close to grappling range

I disagree. We must have different definitions of trapping, and thats okay, it doesnt change how I move or 'trap' obstacles when they get in the way of my hands, feet, elbows, knees, head, hips, shoulders, etc.

trapping is one basic part of wc, as is chi sau, but the main principle is to hit,if the hands meet resistance, kick, or knee, many jkd ,wc guys spend too much time with the hands, when you spar high level guys from other arts, you will see how hard it is, and if you already have, and have trapped them, i am open to learn from you.

I agree. I have 'found' traps vs opponents of different styles, I stopped 'looking' for traps or even techniques in general long ago.

Watch a middle weight boxing match, your will see many traps. Watch some UFC sometime, many traps. Most takedowns and throws start as traps.

Maybe I just have this huge abstract definition of trapping, or you have some very small limited definition of trapping. Regardless, what I call trapping works and happens.

:eek:

[flaco]

i guess your missing my point, if you call a pak, a trap, then yes that trap works, im talking about the countless drills of every concievable motion, with 2 people standing in front of each other drilling in this manner, i have also seen numerous videos on this topic, such as randy williams,steve grody,etc. and visited many schools and seen the way it is trained.
i especially mean the drills where you end up with a guy having his arms crossed and trapped.
i used to teach this stuff also, but after fooling around sparring with li tai liang, randolph james,some collegiate wrestlers,herman suwanda, and many others, i realized what was being trained wrong in most wc and jkd schools, NOT ALL, BUT MOST.
I HAVE SEEN HIGH LEVEL GUYS TRAIN, AND RARELY WILL YOU SEE A TRAP IN THE MANNER I AM REFERRING TO.

do you think boztepe, or cheung, or inosonto, or any of the greats, could trap tito ortiz, or frank shamrock, i say no way, but they all could give a good fight, and someone may use sensetivity to get behind an opponent, or to there blind side,etc, but i doubt i would see a trap.

i feel the same with kali, i have seen many sparring matches, and only a handful of techniques come out, the rest is fluff, just like knife fighting, many techniques wont really work, as trained.

wyhen i trained witrh a majic marker, and really found out how many times people get cut, and where, it opens your mind up.

and again, how many people have sparred with sticks without helmets? it changes the whole game, as does the gloves. i have yet to see a trap in the ufc also.

again, dont misunderstand me, trapping is good, and has its place in training, and in combat, but my point was that too much emphasis is spent on it, and its overrated.
i can easily impress people by putting tons of traps on tape, but i have faith in only a few of them.

[yenhoi]

Yes, a pak is sometimes a trap.


im talking about the countless drills of every concievable motion, with 2 people standing in front of each other drilling in this manner

I think these drills have merit, its how they are drilled that makes the difference. I agree with you, this should not be the focus of anyone's training.

i especially mean the drills where you end up with a guy having his arms crossed and trapped.

Your right, I dont understand, crossing your opponents arms is very good for you.

I HAVE SEEN HIGH LEVEL PEOPLE FIGHT, AND OFTEN TIMES I SEE MANY FIGHTERS TRAP THEIR OPPONENTS IN ALL SORTS OF MANNERS. :D

do you think boztepe, or cheung, or inosonto, or any of the greats, could trap tito ortiz, or frank shamrock, i say no way, but they all could give a good fight, and someone may use sensetivity to get behind an opponent, or to there blind side,etc, but i doubt i would see a trap.

It wouldent surprize me. But there is no-way to tell what would happen in any of those fights.... without them happening. I dont think you would see much between high level fighers of that sort. Some of this some of that, someone messes up and taps.

i have yet to see a trap in the ufc also.

Your idea of a trap is very limited. Maybe thats part of your problem with trapping. Watch closer.

too much emphasis is spent on it, and its overrated.

Sure. But none of us train with each other, so who are you talking about man? I dont think everyone puts too much emphasis on trapping, nor that trapping is overrated, anymore then throwing is overated or escaping the mount.


:eek:

[flaco]

yenhoi, i think we are on the same page, when i used the word trapping, i was referring to what many schools do for drills and call trapping.
i believe i understand what you mean. and again, it depends on who you are sparring against
anyway, i stated my opinion on it,

[fa_jing]

Like my teacher says:

Try to be effective on the 1st or 2nd technique. Like Pak+ punch, or pak+ punch, jut + punch. Very rarely will a 3-move combination ever work, and 4 and up is unheard of, it's only for show.

The most basic techniques are what win most fights.

Eliminate the flashiness.


Not surprisingly, he has reduced the practice of Chi Sao to something like 5% of our time.

[jmdrake]

Hello all,

First off trapping works. It works against boxers, muy thai and yes Kyokushin.

Second of course pak sao is used as a trap. In fact it's the first trap I learned.

Third the purpose of combo flow drills whether the are trapping drills are "jab cross hook" drills are simply for what the name says. Flow! It's not so you can go in with a preconceived plan and trap trap trap! Personal story. I once misunderstood this in connection with boxing combos. In a sparring session I went in thinking "I'll jab/cross/hook/uppercut this guy". My oponent merely defending me the first couple of times I tried this nonsense. Then he started counterpunching midcross! Does that mean you should stop working combos? Of course not. Just realize what the drill is for.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Ernie]

flaco
whats lacking in most schools teaching trapping is footwork, and forward energy again
that my friend is the answer , foot work , broken rythem , high low , high , . these are prerequisites
with out these you can't control distance , be explosive and apply and adjust to pressure .
though i agree with you traopping for the sake of trapping is silly.
but i have no problem shutting down boxers '' with pak,double pak.or lop. ''
but it's in the foot work and timing and pressure , down the same thing with thai fighters but it can get a little iff'y in the clinch if you don't blow out center , done the same the on the ground both mount and gaurd. but i do impliment pain infliction and cheat .
but mulitiple traps only if i'm onmy way to get to the neck or behind him for a take down and just long enough to freeze him for a second .
but you have to inderstand all the hand routes to be able to flow with out thought and mold yourself to the persons offered structure ,pose ,stance what ever.
you know me bro i keep it functinal and i don't even waste my time with traditional footwork on the entry or in long range .
it's all in the set up , inflict pain , break rythem,fake , change elevation what ever get's you that reaction, or moment in time were he is adjusting.
once you get that and he is mentally processing something else you could trap,shoot .hit him with your shoe what ever but with out the ability to '' trap with out trapping '' it's all gambling .
what happend to the pic my brother.......

[Ernie]

flacoi feel the same with kali, i have seen many sparring matches, and only a handful of techniques come out, the rest is fluff, just like knife fighting, many techniques wont really work, as trained.
defang the snake is all you will ever need to get down in the weapons game the rest is just for cordination.
but the reflexes you develop and the cat like foot work you get from the stick and the knife in a sparring situation . that is universal to all combat .
the timing being able to pull off punches and kicks while stick or knife sparring makes empty hands sparring look like guys are moving in slow motion.
that's the problem many people don't focus on the sttribute development , instead the disect the system.
chi sau hu bud , and ground all teach you position timing and sensitivity, who cares what lock flow , or trap combination your doing just concentrate on your feel , intent and adaptability. take the ego and compition out of it .
as for trapping look beyond wing chun any type of limb or body immobilization is trapping . if it's pak/lop or body to body with hip control or just flicking him thi the eye and he freezes it's all a form of trapping a persons ability to fight back for that instant.
stay away from labels . just look at the results .
if there were no energy drills you couldn't sharpen or be exposed to the fundimentals you need . what you do with those fundimentals is up to you.

[flaco]

ernie my man, im right with you.
my point was that its overrated, not useless, and also, i was mainly referring to what is taught in most schools.

i agree with you on your theories, however, oin most schools, the defender in trapping drills, is always standing right in front of you, and until i started xing i, i wasnt used to an opponent who goes low and high with his body, not just his hands, and the lateral movement changes the game.

i believe all these drills have merit, as does taiqi push hands, which in chen style, is very effective practice. i believe it all has its place, but nowadays, wing chun is known as a trapping art, and many jkd guys borrow lop sau, chi sau, and traps, and think thats what wc is all about, wc is about pummeling someone, hitting, hitting hard, trapping is secondary to hitting, that was my only point, yes, i feel all people should learn the trapping drills, from all aspects, but, after a year or two, thay need to change the drills, add triangle footwork, bob and weave, etc, dont just have the defender stand in front of you and give different blocks, have the defender move on your first pak da, chase him, make it real, you know what im taljking about.
also, i guess my opinions have changed, after being exposed to other masters,its my own experience, yes, i can pak and lop many people and immobilize their hand, and especially the elbow, but many schools i have watched drill it in a weak robotic way.
im not into arguing with these guys, just thought id save some guys some time, and give them some ideas.

same with chi sau, i have only seen a few schools that really push pull, opff balance, etc, most guys stand in front of each other rolling, and using all hands, with no structure or off balancing, etc. again, you have a good teacher, dont forget. calif has the cream of tyhe crop, when you visit other places, watch some classes at schools.

did you get the picture yet? and i will be in la, on july 26, i only have a little time, so i will probably take a private or two from gary, i doubt i can make his classes.

[Ernie]

flaco
no picture yet but i am looking forward to it .
get my number when you come in call me there some one i want you to meet that might really trip you out great guy but serial killer skills all the way.
i know what you mean about some ''wing chun and other trapping systems'' but that's on the students not the system they don't leave there protective bubble . so they never really get in a position were the have to find answers to un asked questions.
i guess i have been lucky as i have only been shown things from a functional standpoint from gary , or my jkd friends as you said cream of the crop.
but there are no secrets only un asked questions just go out and pak,lop stright blast , what ever as many different people as you can from all styles .
anh you will find all the questions and all the answers you need.
be sure to call me when you come down even if it's just to catch some food peace

[fa_jing]

I forgot to mention that the "Crush Punch" is a technique in Wing Chun, it was taught to me as the "Outer Gate Punch." Good technique, as well as a good principle.