jkd politics

[flaco]

i know a guy who teaches martial arts, he then went to be sponsored by ric tucci, and in only 1 private lesson a month, for 9 months,(9lessons), he was given a apprentice instructor certificate. why? because he has to bring all his students to guro dans seminars.
yet at the same time, i have a friend who trained with us, moved to LA, and trains at dans school for 3 years now, and goes 5 nights a week, and he says he will not get that same certificate for at least a few more years, why is that?

because it has become political stuff, the guy who moved to LA, has ten times more material than the other guy, and can perform ten times better, yet he is not a school owner, and does not bring students to seminars. the guy is so frustrated, he wanst to move back to the east coast and get the sponsor and get a certificate so he can teach.

VERY UNFAIR GROUP

[apoweyn]

Yes, yes. It's very unfair, your friend getting to train with one of the greatest martial arts instructors in the world 5 times a week. I'll remember him in my prayers tonight.

What's the priority here? The certificate? Or the information?


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

Seems to me your 'friend' has bigger problems then trying to get a piece of paper that says "Im a legit teacher."

Hands tell the tale of skill, nothing else. I wouldent complain if I trained with Guru Inosanto 5 times a week. I wouldent complain at all.

Whats the rush to be a teacher?

Who cares about the other guy? What difference does he make to your skill or your friend's skill?

:eek:

[flaco]

yenhoi, it makes a big difference, because after all our years of training, unless we fight in street, or mma, what is our real goal?
after about ten years of training, if your not getting into fighting, the other option is too get into teaching, so you can train and make money, and love your job.

my friend has years of training under his belt, and would never teach jkd without a legite certificate, the fighting part is a small piece, when you reach a certain age, and experience,

i mean honestly, how many fights has guro dan had in the last 20-30 years? do you think his motivation to train is to fight? when you reach a certain age and level, the arts more intrigue you, and you want to be healthy, train hard, but you need to make money, and reason why many martial arts guys eventually quit, is because of lack of time, because of a job. so many hardcore guys who want to teach, so they can train forever,etc, and these days, you need a certificate, unless you want to be called a poser or whatever. it is good business to be certified by someone good.

so i can understand my friends resentment, he put his life on hold, to move 3000 miles to train,and get certified, he had no problem with waiting a few more years, but was very bothered by the seminar thing, yes, he will get great experience there, but will also soon run out of cash, and was hoping to open a school sometime soon

anyway, its a sad thing when this stuff happens

[yenhoi]

Sure.

But give it a rest, when your ready to teach, then your ready to teach. It has little to do with certificates. Judge a teacher by his students, and a student by his actions. If there is something wrong with your friend, or the other guy, it will be very easy to tell. A certificate doesnt hit back.

Would I be learning from my teacher if he wasent legit and had all the paperwork? No, probably not. I also wouldent be there if he had a huge dojo, 600 adult and children students, and 60 random instructors working for him.

When you decide to teach people you need to make a decision. Are you going to teach in order to make good students, or are you going to teach in order to make good cash? Teaching and Buisness are not always directly related, or always exclusive. Your art doesnt have to be a buisness, and if it is, then it doesnt always have to be a good buisness. Even if your the teacher, your concern should after all this still be the subject of fighting, and if your not fighting, then your students should be.

:eek:

[HuangKaiVun]

Consider this, flaco:

Did anybody give BRUCE LEE a little certificate?

[flaco]

consider thi- did bruce have a commercially accepted matrtial arts business? only because he was a movie star, did he make money teaching, people saw his talent when working with him, and his demos. he never really made money teaching, when he wasnt famous.

i am referring to the fact of opening a successful school, not just being a fighter. an example, is all the now famous jkd guys yhaving got certified by dan, that gives them credibility, also people make a fuss over who bruce certified, so your statement above, says that all the other jkd guys who never trained with a legite jkd lineage are ok also.

the certificate is not the goal of learning, however when you have trained in martial arts for like 15 years as my friend has, and he did silat, wc, etc, he feels ripped, because of the politics. anyway, i just brought up the point, i have no time to argue about it.

[apoweyn]

If he's been training for 15 years, couldn't he just open up a school anyway? Surely he's qualified (on paper and otherwise) to teach something. And then he can incorporate JKD methodology. Or is it the name that he's looking for?


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

:rolleyes:

[HuangKaiVun]

flaco, you don't need a certification to open a successful school - or to teach good kung fu.

I've opened a school this year, and we're doing quite well. I don't even have a formal certification from my sifu, especially since I ended up changing all of his applications to fit the modern day anyway.

The bottom line is that martial arts clients want to know is whether or not you can BRING IT in terms of skill level. Almost all of my students have studied other systems extensively, some longer than I've been alive. And yet they keep coming month after month despite having no contracts.

If your friend is really that skilled in martial arts - and I don't doubt that he is - people won't care if he doesn't have his certification from some organization. They'll see him talk and move and KNOW that he's a master worth respecting. And they'll even show it by paying $$$.

GOOD martial artists don't give a hoot about belts or certification if you can help them fight better.

Your friend needs to go his own way financially and otherwise.

[flaco]

i can appreciate your view, however, most martial arts schools that are hardcore, and have good fighters, are not making a great living. i am happy that you are. yes, my friend has his black in tkd, and some other stuff, however jkd is what he wants to teach, and he really can't do it without certification. he can, but it always comes back to--- people calling inosontos school, etc. and asking who is certified.
im also talking about having a school where you make money, like 3000 a week,etc. which is very easily attainable. but they are more commercialized.
also, to go make money doing seminars and such, where you get like 2500 a weekend, plus plane ,hotel, etc, you need certification, unless your a known professional fighter.
as much as it is bogus, its a reality. and i have several friends, and my former teacher, who make that kind of weekly money with a school, having contracts, and having about 160 students, and yes, alot are kids.
i am more into hardcore training, and if i opened a school like that, i would have a special class for the hardcore guys. but in order for me to train with the best guys, and travel out of state to do it, i need money, as does my friend, so just making a grand a week with a hardcore school wont cut it. unless of course you open a bjj school, the market for this is very good, but of course you will get hammered if your not certified or ranked by anyone.
anyway, whatever it takes, the bottom line is are you gonna be a pro fighter? or a businessman, doing what you love, and getting paid well, without selling out. so there are alot of things involved. there are a ton of great fighters out there, that can kill me and you, and many better teachers, so something at our schools has to bring people in, yes, our ability is one, but having inosonto vouch for you is a big seller, and you will get more than just local students.
anyway, its my friends issue, i just mentioned it,its not my problem, i have my certifications, and skill, i just felt bad for the guy, because of the politics. im sure he will do well anyway.

[yenhoi]

I think thats pretty weak asz.

IMO.

:eek:

[flaco]

no, you just dont think.

[apoweyn]

flaco,

It seems odd to me that your friend needs Inosanto's certification to feel like he can teach. And yet doesn't seem to trust Inosanto's judgment in granting it. Has he talked to Guro Dan about this issue? If not, it seems that should be the step BEFORE publically griping about Inosanto's politics on a forum.


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

I think your friend just wants to make a buck off someone else's name, rather then his own hands.

But thats just what it looks like from your very keen posts.

:rolleyes:

[HuangKaiVun]

flaco, I think that times are changing.

More and more, I'm running into people that don't want the standard tae kwon do or karate or even judo regimen.

People are - and always will be - slightly nervous about training hardcore martial arts. But any truly good hardcore method will feature restraint and a nearly zero injury rate, or so Royce Gracie believes.

Just this Saturday, I was asked to adjudicate part of a black belt test for a Hawaiian kempo school. Bear in mind that I have NO certifications or even a school uniform. Yet I was asked to help test a black belt student because the senseis had met me, sparred me a bit, and deemed me competent by their standards. Certainly it wasn't my certification or dress that earned their approval.

People complain to me all the time that finding real hardcore martial arts schools is tough - and I'm in Phoenix, the 3rd largest city in the USA!

I totally understand your friend's issue about certification, having myself had doubts when I went my own way. But once he gets out there and his first students sign on, his angst will disappear. If he's as good as you say he is, people will gladly pay him money to show them how to defend themselves.

In the business of martial arts, the only true certification that counts is the $$ that students pay if you are teaching them that which they feel they need to learn.

[flaco]

guys, lets drop this issue, its my friends problem, i just mentioned that politics suck, but let me end with this

my friend is not trying to make a living off dan's name, he trains at the academy like 5 days a week, for a few years, and is not ranked as high as the other guy who only took 8 privates from tucci,and owns a school and has to bring students to seminars. it is clear cut politics, and my friend moved to california to train with dan, and get certified by the best and learn the material. now anyone would be ****ed that the other guy just took one lesson a month and got certified, and now has a very successful enrollment, by promoting jkd,and that he is under dan.
yenhoi, anyone can fight, no matter what, someone is always better than you or i, fighting is one part of the picture, can you teach, and where did you get the material, can you teach a system from a-z, or are you gonna just teach streetfighting?i have friends who are streetfighters, that mop the floor with martial artist, but can they actually teach what they do? no, they are just animals that will tear someones head off, and they have some bjj or thai backround.

my friend can easily open a school with his other certifications,but he wanted to train with the guy who he thought was best. by being ranked, you know you reached a certain level, and have a certain amount of material to teach.
bottom line is, can you fight? yes, no, in reality, big deal, do you fight in the ring?if you fight in the street it shouldnt happen often, so what are your goals?if your goal is to own a school, and have more to offer than the school down the block,your lineage is important,as well as your fighting and teaching skill.
i laugh at alot of the hardcore guys i train with, always pumped, always ego, etc. we do knife fighting for hours on end, but 99 percent chance i will never have a knife fight, etc, i do it because i love it, and will help in an emergency, but also i can teach it and make money, and save someone elses life maybe.

when you start to reach the 30-40 year old age group, fighting is not really your priority,and business is business, whatever certificates help you put food on the table, go get them.dont train for the goal of only a ranking, but if i work my ass off for 2 years five days a week, and some guy takes 9 lessons and is ranked higher, i would be ****ed also.

again, lets drop it, the point is that burt richardson, vunak,etc are all great teachers, but dans certification is what got them where they are, just as william cheung,hawkins cheung, got where they are because of yip man and bruce lees name, fighting is the first priority, but when you can fight, your next plateau or goal is to make money at what you love doing.

[Kymus]

Originally posted by flaco
i know a guy who teaches martial arts, he then went to be sponsored by ric tucci, and in only 1 private lesson a month, for 9 months,(9lessons), he was given a apprentice instructor certificate. why? because he has to bring all his students to guro dans seminars.
yet at the same time, i have a friend who trained with us, moved to LA, and trains at dans school for 3 years now, and goes 5 nights a week, and he says he will not get that same certificate for at least a few more years, why is that?

because it has become political stuff, the guy who moved to LA, has ten times more material than the other guy, and can perform ten times better, yet he is not a school owner, and does not bring students to seminars. the guy is so frustrated, he wanst to move back to the east coast and get the sponsor and get a certificate so he can teach.

VERY UNFAIR GROUP

I trained under Sifu Rick Tucci for four years. I know all about him and his training. Lemme tell you something, he's one of the best! Even Guro Dan is stated in saying that. I don't know exactly what is up with this guy you talk about, as I haven't been there for a few years, but I can assure you that if Sifu Rick thinks he's good enough, he's good enough. Everyone that Sifu Rick certifies is also certified by Guro Dan. I don't know how Guro Dan teaches, but I know at his seminars he isn't too hands on with everyone. He usually just gives a drill and then goes to talk to Sifu Rick and Simo Amy.

[Kymus]

Originally posted by flaco
i am referring to the fact of opening a successful school, not just being a fighter. an example, is all the now famous jkd guys yhaving got certified by dan, that gives them credibility, also people make a fuss over who bruce certified, so your statement above, says that all the other jkd guys who never trained with a legite jkd lineage are ok also.

IMHO, who Sijo Bruce Lee certified is very important in the fact that THAT person (that being Guro Dan, who is the only one certified by Sijo Bruce Lee) knows the full curriculum and all the ins and outs and abc's of that system. Training under someone who is fully certified to teach is a lot better than training under someone who is not. There is a big difference between "Apprentice Instructor" and "Assnt or Full Intructor" also.

[flaco]

kymus, no doubt tucci is pretty good, thats irrelevant, the amount of material he gave the guy im talking about was not so much hands on, the guy also teaches, so he was given a ton of stuff, and a basic how to, and told to teach it to his students. also the teachers that go to ric, are not trained as hard as students, they are older, and the whole idea is money. they dont really have to be in shape, or anything, they are more tested on how good their students are, and how many go to dans seminars. my whole point was just that.

[Kymus]

I;m not trying to start an arguement here, but I doubt Sifu Rick does it for money. And I base that upon the fact that I already know he has a good amount of money to begin with (have you seen the size of the school or the # of people enrolled?). There are many things that could play into factor. Maybe this new guy is really good at teaching? Maybe that's why he's where he is? I dunno. I plan on going back to Sifu Rick to do private lessons for Kali so I can hopefully get some sort of certification (so I can teach w/o having to hide it) and just cause I'd like to improve my Kali skills. As far as Sifu Rick not working the teachers as hard as the students, I personally doubt it. Like I said, I had trained there for 4 years. I trained with Jeff Jones and Berney Dudley both a lot. I know that they both are very tough guys. Jeff was undefeated in kickboxing (and maybe kali) for a while (dunno about anymore, that was a while ago!). Another thing that makes me believe that Sifu Rick isn't about money is because he has been quoted many times that he doesn't do any school tournaments (and I dun think he does tournaments) because it's too political. Surely if he was looking for a quick way to get more students, he'd do that, I think they even stopped doing the demonstrations we used to do at Kat Man Du and Quakerbridge Mall. Just my 2 cents.

[ewallace]

and I'm in Phoenix, the 3rd largest city in the USA!
Huh?

[flaco]

kymus, you are misunderstanding me, i never said ricc was about money, because he only gave this guy like 9 lessons, so obviously he wasnt getting much money. the money i was talking about, is for guro dans seminars. certifying teachers,and part of the deal is, that they have to bring a bunch of students to dans seminars. like i said, the guy i was referring to, is good, and had a backround in other arts, but yhe was given his apprenticeship based on knowing the material, and teaching it, he was not tested on performance in any way,or stamina,etc.
as far as tuccis skill, im sure hes good, and the guy jeff, im sure hes good, i have also seen champs at kevin seamans school, and paulsons school,etc. there are guys here in ny who are champs also, so when someone is a champ,im not impressed, unless its an international champ.to say these guys are champion thaiboxers, who have they fought? other guys in their state? how many fights have they had. there are many guys with titles that have only had like 5 fights in the ring,etc. the guys over here, at ultimate gym are real thai fighters who fight in thailand, with elbows to the head,etc. i myself defeated the champion from cebu,in a kali match in 97, so i guess im a champ? no, because they wear a vest and helmet, so the tourney meant nothing in reality.

anyway, i dont want to argue, the bottom line is that with jkd instructors, its easier to be out of state, get sponsored, and get certified, than it is for a guy who trains at a jkd school daily.and to me, thats political garbadge. also i dont judge an instructor on how many students he has, but on how many of his students either
a)opened up schools, and became money makers themselves
b)have fought and have done well
the guy i was referring to, in the first place, has over 150 studenst, and he got 80 of them after he got his jkd certificate, does this mean the guy is good?
as far as tucci, i have respect for him , but dont really know him, if he has a ton of students and only 2-5 champs,its not impressive,and if he has had students who went on to become school owners also, then its a good thing.
with martial arts, we train so hard, so i think theres 3 main things we can do, either make money with our experience, fight in the ring, or just street defense, or a combo of the above. so i judge teachers on how many students have opened schools, or fought.
but my main point was misunderstood, so lets just drop this thread.

[apoweyn]

So what's the "political" motivation for keeping your friend down? And what's to stop him from going the same route as this other guy? Getting certified by a second-generation JKD teacher?

It still comes down to this: He chose Inosanto because he recognized him as a great teacher. And yet he doesn't want to accept Inosanto's judgment about certification. Can't have it both ways. Live with Inosanto's system or go elsewhere.


Stuart B.

[Kymus]

I see what you mean now. Sorry I got things mixed up. I agree with you that rank and # of students doesn't mean anything when it comes to true skill.

[flaco]

its not a matter of keeping my friend down, all the students at dans school will take many years to get certified, but the guys out of state will take very short time, so yes, my friend is moving back to the east coast,and will get his school open,and get a certificate through dan, but he couldnt do it for at least like 6 more years,if he stayed at dans school, its kinda weird if you look at it rationally, its all about money,the more instructors you have out of state, the more seminars you will have to go and do,to keep them progressing

[apoweyn]

Guro Dan teaches seminars all over the shop. Not just at schools run by associate instructors of his.

Has your friend actually spoken to Guro Dan about why he could be certified faster going through a satellite program than by actually training directly with Dan? Seems to me that would be a rather clever first step.

It also seems to me that your friend, qualified in several arts but unwilling to open anything but a JKD school, is contributing to that 'it's all about the money' mentality.

He wants to teach JKD, right? When he learned any of these other styles, how long did it take him to reach instructor status? About 6 years?

And yet, when he wants to teach JKD, 6 years seems unreasonable? Why? Forget about the other instructors who have gone the shorter route for a moment. What makes your friend feel that it's acceptable to take the shortcut to teaching JKD? When he presumably hasn't done that with these other styles?

Or maybe I'm missing something here. I should admit that that's definitely a possibility. What am I not seeing? (Aside from your point that other people teach JKD with less experience.)


Stuart B.

[ewallace]

I don't care about JKD politics, I just want to know how the hell Phoenix is bigger than Chicago. :)

[brothernumber9]

retirement homes

[flaco]

apoweyn, like i said before, its my friends issue, i just mentioned it, as far as his training, he has done mande muda for years, done wc, and thai,and some kali before going to dans school, then while in dans school, he was able to go out of the beginners class,and move up, then people who were there longer, complained, and my friend was told to go back into the other class to avoid problems. so it seemed regardless of skill, it was more about time.
but on a nother note, i defenitly think my buddy feels he is better than he really is, although he is good.and in no way would he even ask about certification, other than the fact that his old teacher only took 9 privates with tucci and got certified as an apprentice, because of the semiar thing.this is what made my friend angry, he moved across the country to get training from the source, and it sucks to see someone else get it handed to them,and then have a booming jkd school.
im sure my friend is opening a school soon,and he will do fine,he got the experience of training at dans, and will always treasure that. and he has talked to one of the instructors about the politics,etc.
as far as my opinion, if your not fighting in the ring, you need to make money, and in this country, certification and lineage mean alot. i myself can open a school,i have gotten teaching rank in a few arts, but my old teacher was missing alot in his wc training, so people wioll ask my lineage,etc, so now i fly cross country, just to fill in the holes,and get ranked,so sacrafices are needed. alot of the realest, best gung fu guys are very bad at business,and make no money, but many posers do well.
my xin yi teacher is the best martial artist i have met,and he is little known in the usa, he is master li tailiang, and his xing i in my opinion is superior to most other art i have seen, (but lacks ground fighting)the xing i stick stuff is far more practical than most kali i have seen,and xin yi covers all ranges of combat, and has proven successful in wars, but yet people dont know much about it.so there is a sadness about martial arts in the usa, i want to be formally ranked by respected people, be a good fighter, and be a better teacher,and make money.i dont want to open a school and be like every other guy around,i wont be a lions den school, but also wont be a mcdojo, and i guess my friend is after the same thing.
thanks for your reply,

[JKDFORYOU]

Why all the fuss over a cert from dan in Jkd .he might be the greatest to your friend and many other Jkd practitioner, because the cert means so much, like the other gentleman said you don’t need a stupid cert from dan to show your true spirit to teach Jkd. Because the cert only going to say your certified in inosantos martial arts, not just Jkd. The real deal is that dan only cares about dan, he claims that he is teaching Bruce lee’s method of fighting, he is only promoting Filipino martial arts and him self .I have been to one of his seminars he was selling a picture of him and Bruce lee for $5.00 to make money of the man .for three days eight hours a day I was there he only did eskrima, silat and savat but yet he called it Jkd. Yeah I forgot he did two combos on the focus mitts and he called Jkd for approx three minutes, so tell your friend that he can learn better Jkd from some one that doesn’t just care only about money, but yet pretends to be the best Jkd man out there. If your friend wants to learn pure Jkd, she should try Sifu Ted Wong that man is a true Jkd master, and he only cares about spreading the true art of Bruce lee and not his pocket. This is only my opinion your friend can take it or leave it.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Does anyone know anything about Gary Dill. Is he the real deal, or is he a hack?