Pecking Order

[Budokan]

Or call it Alpha Male or whatever term you want to use, but I think MA by their nature tend to be higher up on the social pecking order than your run of the mill pot-bellied couch potato. Because of our training we tend to take command of most social situations, don't you find?

Case in point: When I was on a civil jury ten years ago I determined beforehand that I was going to be the foreman. It was easy. I simply told everyone there at the table that I was going to be the foreman, unless someone else wanted the job. Of course, no one did because your average Joe Lunchbox and Sally Housecoat is more than willing to be led than lead. I had counted on that.

I've noticed that in other situations, more so now that I've been studying MA and have gained increased mental and physical confidence, that I'm not happy unless I'm in charge. What about you other bozos? Anyone out there happy to be a sheep, or have you noticed like me that MA tend to take charge and this is a direct result of the confidence gained in their training....?

I guess the biggest problem might ensue when a bunch of MA get together. Then we'd have to rumble to find out who has the biggest swagger. Otherwise, it's quite easy to be a wolf (and quite a genial one, I might add) in a fold of human sheep. Or so at least I've found it so....

[SaMantis]

Nope, can't say that I'd be compelled to rumble in a crowd of martial artists. But then, I'm female, so I probably wouldn't go throwing down challenges anyway.

But this morning I told a building manager to go **** himself, and if he had a problem with it to send up his boss so I could tell that person to go **** themselves, too.

Something I wouldn't have dared to do 5 years ago. But I don't think it's the kung fu by itself ... a few years in my field and the confidence that I know my job, thank you. I'm still employed as of 3 p.m. so I guess he did go **** himself. ;)

[Budokan]

Yup. That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Back in the day when I used to study isshin-ryu I was working at a pizza joint. The manager told me one day that if I didn't straighten up he'd "write me up". I told him he could write until his f*cking hand cramped for all I cared, and that was the end of it. No problem. I worked there for another year while in college and it was a pretty good job.

But I don't think I would have done that if I hadn't been taking MA in the first place.

Of course the problem is to know the line when you stop being an Alpha person and become a mean ol' bully, but you get the picture....

[norther practitioner]

There is more to it... for a lot of people studying ma puts you into another herd.... The confidence will tend to make people feal higher in the pecking order though..

[yenhoi]

Of Course, the more people you can beat up, the more people have to do what you say.

I thought thats why someone would even start MA in the first place - to tell weaker people what to do, and to smash them when they dont obey.



:eek:

[Shaolin-Do]

Yes. Smiting others who dont listen is always the key to a powerful empire......
But as for MA, kung fu in particular (had taken a break for 2 years from anything other than being a useless f*ckhead) Ive gained 20 lbs (lost 15 again in the past month since I havent worked upperbody due to shoulder) and it kinda reimplemented what I already know, gave me plenty of new knowledge... I know matter of factly that I can hand most of my friends their arses, and gift wrap it up real nice too, something I didnt know in 10th grade....
:D

[shaolinboxer]

I have always said that it's a lot easier to forgive sombody's stupidity if you know you can kick their ass :).

[ZIM]

ahhh..yes and no. If you ever met me, you'd know that there's no possible way that I could come across as an intimidating Alpha type. more rogue or something... moody loner gun club kind of guy.

But, I've always had this kind of, i don't know, attitude like, "whatever, je rkoff", and heck yes, its gotten me into a lot of trouble, firing whatever, that has trained me to bounce back in so many ways.... usually i bounce right back to them, with this smile on my face saying basically, 'ha, that sh1t you pulled helped me" and it does, really.

in fact, i make it a point to do so. hehehehe see everybody else thinks theyre the alpha, i show them theyre not, but don't play the game, either. just got better things to do.

maybe its a short circuiting of the natural pecking order, i can't say. transcendence through style, man.

[Former castleva]

"I guess the biggest problem might ensue when a bunch of MA get together. Then we'd have to rumble to find out who has the biggest swagger. Otherwise, it's quite easy to be a wolf (and quite a genial one, I might add) in a fold of human sheep. Or so at least I've found it so...."

In a situation like this.
They can/should bravely pull it out and see who has the biggest,this is the only way to solve that problem.

[Merryprankster]

Or call it Alpha Male or whatever term you want to use, but I think MA by their nature tend to be higher up on the social pecking order than your run of the mill pot-bellied couch potato. Because of our training we tend to take command of most social situations, don't you find?

Nope. I don't agree at all. First, while I am aggressively competitive, I hate being in charge. Pain in my ass.

Secondly, I think that the "Alpha Male," in this case, is generally more of the "Wanna be Alpha Male," you know, the guy in high school that thought he was a badass because he took ninjitsu and wore his goofy ass martial arts school T-shirt and shoes (those strange sneaker looking, soft shoe things), when, in reality, he was doing it to shore up his own insecurities.

Of course, this Wanna be takes several forms.

In MMA, it's the lower class wanna be toughguy look.
In Karate, it tends to be aggressive bluster.
In CMA, it appears to be cold, smirking condescencion.

[red5angel]

I don't think so. I have met quite a few not so Alpha males and females in the martial arts. Especially in TMA where it seems more people are in it for the health. Of course your average Alpha Male is probably going to be attracted to the martial arts at some point.
However I don't look at the Alpha Male as necesarily a bully, often this is just a person who has a strong personality, and some can handle it while others cannot.

[ZIM]

just putting together both R5's and MP's posts:

When saying a 'strong' personality, I assume you mean 'forceful, aggressive' and not necessarily 'secure, disciplined, having integrity'.

I agree on the health freak non-alpha as well as the faux-alpha observations. You can change your self-percieved place in the equation [or find more options], though, and thats maybe the whole point of this thread...

You can't punch out a social reality. Only people.

[SaMantis]

You can't punch out a social reality. Only people.

Bumper sticker of the day. :D

[NorthernMantis]

In CMA, it appears to be cold, smirking condescencion.

Mp sometimes you astonish me how you are right.

[Dark Knight]

What about you other bozos?

Sit down and shut up.

[red5angel]

Hmmm, I guess to some extant, Alpha Male doesn't equate to Thug, in my book. I have what you might call a take charge attitude. I have also been called, ****y, overconfident, confident, and any other word on both sides of the fence you might say goes along with Alpha syndrom.
I know plenty of "Alpha" personalities that do fine, freindly people who just take charger, are competitive but freindly, etc.
To me, what MP describes in each art is not what I consider to be true Alpha, but wannabes. I have raised dogs all my life and I have had all kinds and I can tell you that being alpha in a dogs world isn't just about being a thug, although it can be ( I had a female pit mix that used to chase every dog she could relentlessly). Aggressive Bluster, cold smirking condescension, all tricks to make one appear as if they are in control.
In the same vein I don't believe martial artist are always leaders of the pack either, although by it's generally aggressive nature I think it attracts more then not.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I am assuming that your original post was a superlative troll right?? C'os if you really are that way inclinded and really think this way then you are a complete knob-head!

[MasterKiller]

don't believe martial artist are always leaders of the pack either, although by it's generally aggressive nature I think it attracts more then not.

I think most people join MA because they want to develop an Alpha attitude, not because they already have it.

[red5angel]

masterkiller, I think some do but atleast in my experience there are quite a few who already have it. And let's not forget the spiritual reasons for studying martial arts :rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

I joined the Martial arts world becasue I wanted to beat up on all the other Alapha's and take thier packs, and thier women. :eek: :D :p

[Former castleva]

I think the word "spirituality" has been abused in MA context.
Seriously,spirituality refers to religion far too much,maybe it´s just minor verbal abuse but ...spirituality?

[ZIM]

there are no 'spiritual' reasons to study a martial art, but one may have spirituality that is affected by the practice of one.

which is only like saying, there are no spiritual reasons to steal a loaf of bread, but doing so might affect your sense of spirituality, if you have any to begin with.

which is a wholly different pecking order- the 'holier than thou' one, which is curiously present in CMAs, imho.

beg pardon for a possibly bad analogy. :)

[MasterKiller]

there are no 'spiritual' reasons to study a martial art,
Not from a Western perception; but certainly, using a martial art to help attain a state of no-mind could be classified as a spirtual experience from a Chan perspective.

[Former castleva]

For me,what gets closest to what I´d call spiritual is hiking around and watching animals,may it be birds,mammals or amphibians wander around.

"Holier than thou".Have to love that,I think I may know what you mean.

I posit that it will be just as spiritual as you decide to make of it.

edit:
West/East;
European knights of the old were certainly influenced by christianity in a way or another.

[ZIM]

Not from a Western perception; but certainly, using a martial art to help attain a state of no-mind could be classified as a spirtual experience from a Chan perspective. Agreed! :) But it is not necessarily a valid a priori reason to study a martial art. For the Shaolin, this is the valid path. This is in part what I mean by saying "one may have a spirituality that is affected by it".

[MasterKiller]

I would argue that there is no a priori reason for any kind of spirituality. Spirituality requires direct experience; otherwise, it's just faith.

[ZIM]

which is only like saying, there are no reasons for having spirituality, but having it might affect your kung fu, if you have any to begin with.

which is a wholly different pecking order- the 'I can beat your azz' one, which is also curiously present in CMAs, imho.

beg pardon for a possibly bad analogy.

The above is more a smart-alecky remark, not insult. I wanted to see if it played out similar... we are not substantially in disagreement. :)

[Former castleva]

I don´t think kung-fu is more spiritual by nature/definition than soccer.

[MasterKiller]

Whether you profess any spirituality or not, everyone who practices regularly and pushes themselves experiences no-mind, they just don't call it that or fail to recognize it.

When you have done something 1,000 times, so much so that you don't need to think about it, or think about making your muscles do it, or think about how your opponent will react, or think about the screaming kids, or think about your crappy job, or your mortgage, or your *****y mother-in-law---when you simply are in the moment, you are having a spiritual experience. Being inclined one way or the other toward Chan practice in no way diminishes this experience.

Basketball players have it, football players have it, gardeners have it, cooks have it, and kung fu players have it.

[jun_erh]

It's kind of ironic, considering the (non existant) position of martial arts in our society.

[Former castleva]

What´s ironic?


MK,
You put it that everyone experiences it regardless of their position,how can this be said?
I mean,how do you define "no-mind" and does it have to be "no-mind"?

[MasterKiller]

I mean,how do you define "no-mind" and does it have to be "no-mind"?I defined it in my previous post. You don't have to call it no-mind, but that's what it is, nevertheless.


You put it that everyone experiences it regardless of their position,how can this be said? You don't have to believe in water to get wet when it rains.

[jun_erh]

I mean it's ironic that you'd have these alpha male types doing something that has about the same position as crossdressing or something. I mean, martial arts is a misunderstood marginalized subculture.

[SaMantis]

What´s ironic?

Black fly in chardonnay, rain on your wedding day, etc.

Oh wait, those are unfortunate. Not ironic. (Thanks, Dennis Leary)

But, I don't see MA as being nonexistent in our society ... many folks have had direct experience with MA, or at least have been exposed to it via movies & TV. There's a definite influence on the way society perceives MA and the effect MA has on said society.

And that's just Eastern martial arts. MA of the western hemisphere have been well-known for many centuries (i.e. boxing, fencing, jousting, etc.)

[Former castleva]

"You don't have to believe in water to get wet when it rains."

Sorry but I fail to see the analogy around here.

(I won´t be sticking to "no-mind" subject any more since it might be more the case of semantics.However,I would drop the esoteric box)

[[Censored]]

Arrogant people seek confirmation of their inflated self-worth. They do not like to be schooled by those who are physically smaller and weaker than themselves. The kind of thing that happens at any legit MA school. So self-appointed "Alpha Males" gravitate towards bad schools, where nobody will ever embarass them, or force them to re-evaluate their position in society. IOW they don't want to learn anything, they only want to continue winning.

If people can't handle your "strong martial arts personality", it is not because you are "strong", it is because you are clumsy and dull-witted. Strong people aren't _handled by_ others, they _handle_ others. :)

[Merryprankster]

Censored, I disagree.

Strong people are not bothered by others that don't matter to them. Whether they choose to "handle" them is entirely different.

[Budokan]

Agreed. This is where so many sheeple get it wrong. They think that just because a strong person views himself as strong then he automatically becomes a bully. When in point of fact a truly strong person (especially one schooled in Martial Arts -- a respectable MA, that is) doesn't have to bully or hurt or coerce anyone, nor does he care to do so -- unless the people he's dealing with are slack-jawed troglodytes who are trying to hurt other innocent people.

But let's face it. Most people are sheeple. That's a fact. They are willing to be led around by the nose, plain and simple.

[Budokan]

Troll? No, I don't think so. Let's cover it point by point for the mentally challenged who are unable to keep up with simple logic:

MA higher up on the pecking order than your ordinary couch potato who sweats gravy and beats off to Britney Spears videos? Check.

MA tend to take charge of high-pressure situations because of the confidence they've gained through training? Check.

I took charge of a jury ten years ago because when I looked around I saw a room full of sheeple? Check.

MA tend to gain increased mental and physical confidence and utilize these abilities in everyday life? Check.

I'm not happy unless I'm in charge? Check. Because I think I'm better than anyone else? No, because I have an innate confidence in my ability. Double check.

Most people are sheeple and williing to be led around by the ring in their nose by someone strong? Check. (That doesn't make the leader a bad guy, necessarily, but it does say something about the herd mentality.)

Nope, not a troll post.

Budokan a knob head nevertheless? Well, duh! (Aren't you the f*cking genius!)



:p

[Former castleva]

"But let's face it. Most people are sheeple. That's a fact. They are willing to be led around by the nose, plain and simple."

What´s sheeple?

You´re pushing the point as a fact,but is it?


How are MA higher on the pecking order and how do you define pecking order?

Is not the whole pecking order thing sort of a fallacy by definition unless proven legitimate?

[Budokan]

Sounds like the plaintive bleat of a neo-sheeple to me....:D

[Former castleva]

Sounds like ad hominem to me. ;)