traditional stances and muscular failure

[neigung]

each week i've been adding time to each of my stances (10 seconds to each of 10 stances, right and left when applicable). currently i'm reaching the muscular failure point with a few of the stances (2 of the single weighted stances). here's my question - do i add another 10 seconds this saturday or should i continue at my current time until i can maintain the stances?
thanks.

[Becca]

wait till you can maintain them.

[Serpent]

Listen to Becca. Wise is she.

[Laughing Cow]

Wait and keep the current time.

You will know when it is time to extend.

FWIW, read an interesting article today about over-training and what it takes to recover from it as well as how it can affect your WHOLE life.

Cheers.

[WinterPalm]

Do you have a post to the article or can you tell us about it?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
Do you have a post to the article or can you tell us about it?

I checked for it online, but couldnn't find a copy.

Let me get the major points:

Symptoms are the same as a clinically depressed person:
1.) intense fatique
2.) lack of motivation
3.) body aches
4.) sleep problems
5.) frequent illness
6.) depression.

Recovery period:
3~6 months for over-training
1~3 weks from over-reaching (less severe version)

Bassically they talked about training philosophy change from "The harder you work the better you get" to "The smarter you work the better you get" .

Most frequent problems came from people that competed and trained 4~7 days a week, as their performance dropped they tried to "power/force" their training in order to advance with the result that they spiraled further down.

When they re-adjusted their program to less training their performance picked up again.

Nothing really new I think, but it would be nice to have had a link to the study on which the article is based.

Was a rather short insert, I think more to fill space.

Article by Martin Miller from the Los Angeles Times.

Hope this helps.

[Becca]

I found it (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/330212531.html?did=330212531&FMT=ABS&FMTS=FT&PMID=7683&desc=Fitness%3b+health%3b+When+pushing+too+hard+pu lls+back+performance%3b+With+awareness+up,+more+at hletes+are+avoiding+the+problems+of+overtraining:+ fatigue,+aches,+trouble+sleeping+and+depression.) but you gotta pay for it, as it's in the archives. :(

[PLCrane]

Here's the article from June 15,2003
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/living/health/6098250.htm

Here's a medline search for review articles on overtraining. Have fun.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=12392446

[mortal]

there is no overtraining in chinese wushu. Just lazy students who don't know what they are getting into and people making excuses. Its all in the mind. Just keep pushing.

[Merryprankster]

there is no overtraining in chinese wushu. Just lazy students who don't know what they are getting into and people making excuses. Its all in the mind. Just keep pushing.

Ah, see, unless you're kidding, this just makes you a retard.

[ewallace]

Feeling a bit feisty today eh MP?

[Merryprankster]

Well, it's a phenomenally dumb statement. And I'm not exactly known to pull punches, am I. :D

[rubthebuddha]

merry -- you're a grappler. by definition, you don't know how to punch at all. ;)



of course, the same logic means i don't know how to grapple. crap. :mad:

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

haha

[Mr Punch]

LOL at the above!

Hmmm, Mortal, but not much longer at that pace...

but who knows, will he make the transition to immortality...

or will he just carc it?:D

[mortal]

Mp if you said that to my face (which you wouldn't) I would punch your face in. Just thought you should know. :)

Everyone is so tough on the computer. With nothing better to do than sit around posting and talking **** they would never back up in real life.

You all know where I train come and test me. I love to fight. I love to train. You could go take your three weeks to recover from your"traditional" training. Then when I hand you your ass you can do your nerdy posting full time.

Anthony

[neigung]

judging from todays workout, i'll be able to add the next 10 sec to each stance on weds. woohoo.

[ewallace]

Everyone is so tough on the computer. With nothing better to do than sit around posting and talking **** they would never back up in real life.


Mp if you said that to my face (which you wouldn't) I would punch your face in.



Then when I hand you your ass you can do your nerdy posting full time.


Everyone is so tough on the computer. With nothing better to do than sit around posting and talking **** they would never back up in real life.

[Merryprankster]

I have no idea who you are or where you train. But I'm sure you're very tough. Not too bright perhaps, or up on training/medical literature, but certainly very tough.

LOL @ ewallace. Absolutely classic!

[Royal Dragon]

there is no overtraining in chinese wushu. Just lazy students who don't know what they are getting into and people making excuses. Its all in the mind. Just keep pushing.

Reply]
That's because the traditional manuals all say never to train more than 70% of your max. If you never push yourself past that, there's nothing to recover from, so you can train everyday almost.

[Stacey]

thats ok to go 70% for practicing apps, but there are times when 100% is neccesary, even if it takes you a week to recover. These are times for learning a technique so it requires minimal muscular strength, breathing and chi...some things can only be learned on the breaking line.

Ultimately, you find a balance, your internal ability goes up and so you recover faster.

I was at a point once where I would hold stances until I had to crawl out of my kwoon and then be back at it the next day without any sourness. Then I would eat a pot of food, sleep, and do chi kung small circle in high school classes the next day.

The next day I was back at full force.

For stance training, train to song's. Stay for the durration. After Santana's smooth your fast 5 minutes and then 10 isn't as hard as climbing to 5. Keep going to symphonies are you kung fu will be ok

[ZIM]

Hmf. I don't know if any of this adds tto anything...

I do a lot of zhan zuang practice. Currently I'm keeping to about 1/2 hour and climbing in stance work, then going on to other stuff.

I don't really look for muscular failure, per se, but there is a point where thats about to happen, and that is where the real learning begins for me, that turning point. If you don't burn to almost failure, then no learning takes place. Different styles advocate different things, however.

For the record, I think Becca nailed it, the rest is fluff...

[Oso]

I have my students train their stances like so:

Horse: 30 seconds
Hill Climbing, Lt/Rt: 15 seconds each side
Cross/Twisted, Lt/Rt: 15 each side
Crane: 15 each leg
Cat: 15 each leg

I only require them to be able to add 10 seconds to the horse and 5 seconds to the others every 6 months or so. Naturally new folks aren't as low as they should be so the goal over the first 6 months is to really get the proper form and depth of stance. Then add time later.

oh, and the time increase goes up as well later on.

[neigung]

just FYI...

still hitting failure, ******! :mad: :mad: :mad:
maybe i need to eat more? more qigong? the only qigong i do daily is a 5 min sitting after working out. i do get plenty of rest.

1:30 in the following stances, r/l gets 1:30 per side...

rhino looks at the moon (r/l)
horse
cat (r/l)
bow and arrow (r/l)
twisting (r/l)
pointing to winner (r/l)
searching for the sea (r/l)
dull sickle reaps the rice (r/l)
angel staring into mirror (r/l)
angel gazes at the moon

[Becca]

At some point, most people plataue in endurence. Looks like you've hit it. You do this every day? Try taking two days of less time then try again. I have only had limited results with this, but sometimes doing something helps me keep on track. also, I find it easier to hold stances while doing something like chanting or reciting my style's code. Most of, though, I give myself time to develope. I try to keep away from setting concrete goals. Instead of saying "I want to be up to 2 minutes befor August" I say " I will develope as far as my body will allow."

[neigung]

becca,

yep, this is the stance portion of my daily workout.
letting my body set my goals seems (to me) to run counter to the whole overcoming physical limits thing...
as for listening to music, chanting, etc. during stances, i was taught to keep my mind empty during stances so i do that.

[Oso]

take a day off, or even a week, from the hardcore training. don't stop training but chill for a week and just maintain.

rest is impotent.

[neigung]

can't do that either, i'm about 1/4 of the way done with the snake turns over program (again) and trying to pace my stances with the program.
sorry for the short and half assed posts, i'm trying to talk my gf on the phone at the same time.
i want attention wah wah wah.
just kidding.

[Becca]

Originally posted by neigung
becca,

yep, this is the stance portion of my daily workout.
letting my body set my goals seems (to me) to run counter to the whole overcoming physical limits thing...
as for listening to music, chanting, etc. during stances, i was taught to keep my mind empty during stances so i do that.

I can see were you are comming from. I tried the meathod I mentioned because of an interesting trend I noticed. Every time I plataued while trying to loose wieght, I would splurge for a couple days then realize what I did and get back on track. I noticed that every time, I would start loosing wieght again. So I tried it with strength training, and had some reasults. Small ones, yes, but enough to keep me from giving up or getting discouraged.

I never listen to music while training, but chanting is a meditation tool, and it helps to keep my mind focused on the five levels of meditation and not my legs burning. When done in the right frame of mind, reciting the code also helps with this. Keeping the mind free of all thought is what we consider the first level. I am currently working on level 2.

The five levels are and their goals are:
1. Strong Mind = able to clear the mind at will and maintain it indefinantly
2. Concentration = able to cary out simple tasks without loosing focus
3. Control = Able to carry out all but the most difficult daily tasks
4. Discipline = Able to maintain focus while engaging in mental persuits such as reading or holding a conversation.
5. Self-Disipline = Able to maintain focus in any situation indefinantly

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
rest is impotent.

LOL.

:D

(BTW, Mortal - you're a tool.)

[rubthebuddha]

oso's just askin for it. :o

[Merryprankster]

Serpent,

Don't be so hard on mortal. He might come kick my ass.

[Serpent]

Let me know if he does. I'll send you a virtual Band Aid.

[mortal]

lol

[neigung]

i held 1:30 yesterday and today. :D :D

[neigung]

up to 1:40 now.
w00t.

[rubthebuddha]

props.

[neigung]

thanks :D

[IronFist]

Is 1:30 a minute 30 or an hour and 30 minutes? :eek: :eek: :eek:

IronFist

[neigung]

hour and a half? holy crap, no.
a minute, forty seconds in each stance.

[Oso]

good job

[neigung]

thanks again!