on training with headgrear for kathy jo

[russellsherry]

hi kathy jo i was reading one of your threads on this and i completely arggre with you, headgrear i can not stand wearing
becuase of impairng sight for a start and in some cases makes the blow to the head worse i fought 3 times in contack at williams cheung championship and i hated wearing the bloody things russelsherry

[Sihing73]

Hello russellsherry,

I noticed your comment about impairing site and was wondering if you had tried the clear face shield type of products? I am currently considering obtaining some for my class and the one I am looking at has no large opening only a bunch of smaller ones for air flow. My Sifu is using one with a large opening for the eyes.

I can agree that the periphial vision could be impacted but am not sure this is worth giving up the added protection against strong blows to the head. I am also interested in how you feel that the headgear could make the blow to the head worse.

Peace,

Dave

[kj]

Hi Russell. As always, thanks for your comments.

Yes, the peripheral vision can be an issue. I won't mind a mouth guard though; teeth can be sharp and break easily. Mats are okay too. I am not a fan of gloves of any type, but will complain a little less about the thin fingerless variety than padded boxing gloves.

My larger concern with the headgear is not that it isn't useful, but rather that it can encourage a "false" and dangerous sense of security from blows, on the part of both recipient and deliverer. This seems to rhyme with your experience. Heavy blows to the head with or without headgear should be avoided, not encouraged, IMHO.

In cases like Ultimatewingchun's, where he is actively and quite intentionally engaging in a lot of takedowns and grappling, headgear is probably a good idea to avoid splattering of heads as they hit pavement. I think it is nothing short of dangerous to believe that wearing headgear makes hard strikes (or kicks) to the head permissible, and I feel it's asking for trouble.

As I wrote elsewhere, my "fighting" purpose in Wing Chun (and I do have other purposes as well) is to increase my odds of safety and well-being. To intentionally put myself at undue risk in training or testing would be contradictory to that purpose, and therefore unreasonable. Everyone has a different composite of purposes and a different life context. Thus each must discern for themselves where the balance point is, which defines "undue risk."

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yenhoi]

Headgear makes your head bigger too.

:eek:

[teazer]

I've tried several different typed of headgear. Personally I prefer the ones with the plastic cages despite the lack of visibility. They are very effective at minimizing minor cuts & abrasions of day to day fairly friendly sparring. Particularly for those of us that need to look respectable at work the next day! You can get used to the visibility, just be more aware of where you're looking and why.

As to minimizing impact - they do that for the face, but not for any other part of the head. A better way of doing that is by adjusting what gloves people are wearing, or not. From what I've noticed, no gloves at all generally ends up with the least impact. The more padding you add to the hands, the more people put all their weight behind their strikes.

[yuanfen]

Headgear is ok for boxing in the gym. Definitely has drawbacks-
false courage and lack of care in rushing.

I frankly dont see what it does for wing chun- good integration of the head with the rest of the structure without bobbing and weaving is more important in wing chun.

As for looking respectable the next day--- a little puffiness here and there is probably going to look more respectable at least in white collar jobs than tatoos and piercing. Plus I have known academics walk in with various bruises from running into a glass door, falling off the wrong end of a tree limb they were sawing, being dragged on the pavement by their dog, being thrown from their bicycle and one
from being sucker punched by Evil Kneivel ina parking lot .
He wore that black eye proudly(ugh)-- I wouldnt-but then I prolly wouldnt have it in the first place.

[teazer]

Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Headgear is ok for boxing in the gym. Definitely has drawbacks-
false courage and lack of care in rushing.

The headgear used for boxing is very different - has much more padding & leaves the face relatively exposed to anything smaller than a large padded glove.



I frankly dont see what it does for wing chun- good integration of the head with the rest of the structure without bobbing and weaving is more important in wing chun.

Who said anything about 'bobbing & weaving'? I fail to see the connection.


As for looking respectable the next day--- a little puffiness here and there is probably going to look more respectable at least in white collar jobs than tatoos and piercing. Plus I have known academics walk in with various bruises.......

Which is one of the reasons I don't have tats or piercings.
Unless they are walking into trees on a weekly basis, it's not really equivalent.

[ntc]

Yuan:

I am pretty sure I understand the point you were trying to get across in terms of the bobbing and the weaving. The correct structure that integrates the body as one whole structure and allows it to function as so is far more important than anything; especially when the head and the body starts bouncing up and down like a ping pong ball when the body move, there is so much energy loss and disorientation that most of the needed WC structure (which is critical for the proper sensing and trapping) is lost. Hence, in sparring (unless you are training specifically for upcoming knockout fights), structure training should be more emphasized than whether one's head gets blown off with a punch... one hits the opponent's head with a great punch but with no structure, that one has not learned anything from a WC point of view.

Unfortunately, I think you hit the nail on the head with one of your posts yesterday (I think that was when it was posted)... that not too much emphasis is placed on the proper structure, trapping, controlling, and sensitivity that a person needs to develop for good WC. Sadly enough, too many people don't even know or are aware of what that is or entails. Too much emphasis is on fighting, knocking people out, is this technique or that right, etc.

Sometimes, it almost seems like people are asking "am I running correctly? am I using the right sneakers? should I be running with the ankle up or down? Then, all of a sudden, a question pops up... do you know how to walk, or how do you walk? To which, the answer turns out to be: Walking.... what is that???

[apoweyn]

I guess I don't really understand the point about creating a false sense of security. Olympic boxers don't suffer from a false sense of security, do they? Headgear doesn't prevent you from getting rocked. Or even knocked out. So the sense of danger remains. But it does help prevent needless damage to the face.

As for the other point about not liking contact to the head at all, doesn't that run contradictory to the point about a false sense of security? If headgear creates one, wouldn't a lack of head contact create an even stronger false sense?


Stuart B.

[kj]

Originally posted by apoweyn
I guess I don't really understand the point about creating a false sense of security. Olympic boxers don't suffer from a false sense of security, do they?

I imagine that some of them do. Others may have decided to assume such risks for whatever personal reasons, or simply be crazy enough not to care. As always, to each their own.

Not sure who said anything about no contact to the head. I personally do take exception to uncontrolled contact when I'm involved. Not only do I prefer not to sustain concussions or worse, I also don't enjoy getting my jaw broken or my neck snapped. So on balance, I happen to be an advocate of moderation for safety. You wouldn't find me competing in Olympic style tournaments, even if I were better suited to it. That doesn't for a moment mean I don't take what I do seriously; to the contrary my personal choices in risk management strategy are such because I take it very seriously.

Again, what others choose to do and the risks they willingly assume are up to them. Is this disagreeable?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[old jong]

It happens when the neurones that usually tell you that you are acting stupid are dead!...;)

[kj]

Old Jong, you do have a way with words. :D:D:D
- kj

[old jong]

Je ne puis vous le cacher,ma chère!...;)

[PaulH]

Old Jong,

That is indeed too funny for words! Speaking of head impact, I like this quote from the guy who is truly a born fighter: "Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes to win when the match is even - Muhammad Ali (1942- ) US world champion boxer, still regarded as 'the greatest,' stricken with Parkinson's Disease"

Regards,

[old jong]

I can understand that it is possible to do that in a real emergency,to save your life .But even if I consider Ali as one of the greatest in boxing,I still believe that it is stupid to risk brain thrauma for money or sport.Specially in front of some blood thirsty audience.
We must give respect to our lifes first.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The is an answer to the issue of having the sight impaired while using headgear...the "cage" used as the faceguard of hockey masks can be bought in some sporting goods stores and then put on the typical martial arts headgear (after removing the face guard that comes with the headgear)....

this cage consists of quite a few horizontal and vertical metal bars that are strong enough to withstand blows and not break and thin enough not to really impair ones vision...I use them all the time and they work well.

[Ultimatewingchun]

By the way, Kathy Jo...we always spar and/or grapple on mats...

And we use takedowns during the sparring with gear - but actual grappling practice (when using more than just takedowns) is done without any gear and with light striking (when strikes are combined with the grappling).

[kj]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
By the way, Kathy Jo...we always spar and/or grapple on mats...

And we use takedowns during the sparring with gear - but actual grappling practice (when using more than just takedowns) is done without any gear and with light striking (when strikes are combined with the grappling).

I can understand that, Victor.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Apoweyn-sezIf headgear creates one, wouldn't a lack of head contact create an even stronger false sense?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Varies with the details of the wc training.
You may be assuming that wc folks dont make head contact.
The aim is to minimoze it more than boxing with wing chun skill development.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Old Jong- you are funny!
-------------------------------------------------------------
While I dearly love wing chun...some brief comments on boxing...

Where top flight wing chun is not available carefully supervised
amateur boxing teaches some defensive skills and some personal development. You learn somethings about yourself when the bell rings and you are there by yourself witha person who
means to atleast score points and do some harm within the boundary of the rules. An existential moment.
Too much pro boxing is a differnt matter. Much more control of managers and promoters and state athletic commissions is needed, Send Don King and Arum together on the next Mars expedition together with Larry Merchant and the pseudo journalists.. And the lack of proper insurance and retirement plans
are immoral.
And I have no brief for Tyson's behavior- but antisocial behavior is there in football and basketball even at a college level. And top level quarterbacks also often get head damage. Young, Montana,
Staubach- all have been really zinged.
But- better a Sugar Ray Robonson or an Ali than many empty desperate lives. Ali's courageous stand on race, war and religious
freedom would not have been heard- if he wasnt the heavyweight champion of the world. See that great documentary "When we were Kings".
Ali comes to the Phoenix metro from time to time to raise money for Barrow's neurological Institute- a first rate facility.
Anecdotally- my late wife and I had to wait in Calcutta outside of
the late Mother Theresa's main center- because Ali was visiting here and her children.

[WCis4me]

I love the old time boxers! Just bought a BIG picture (poster size)yesterday, has Muhammad Ali, all pumped up, growling and standing over his fallen opponent Sonny Liston, caption reads:

25th May 1965

Muhammad Ali
vs Sonny Liston

First Minute First Round

[Phil Redmond]

I'm wondering if the people that say headgear gives you a false sense of security have ever fought full contact with headgear. In my experiences when ever I was hit with headgear on my head rung worse than when hit without it. Especially the leather padded boxing headgear. You don't want to get hit with or without headgear. What I think gives a false sense of security is thinking your fighting abilities are great based on training with your classmates without having tried to execute technques against someone who's trying to hurt you for real.

[kj]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
You don't want to get hit with or without headgear. What I think gives a false sense of security is thinking your fighting abilities are great based on training with your classmates without having tried to execute technques against someone who's trying to hurt you for real.

I agree with this. And I personally will avoid the latter at any reasonable opportunity. Some of us have also earned a little transferrable knowledge from the misfortune of situations where someone trying to hurt you for real was unavoidable.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

WCis4me-old time? It was only yesterday <g>

BTW do you know what Ali was reportedly saying in that pic?
He was hollering at Liston to get up-because he was concerned that people wouldnt believe that Ali knoocked Liston out with the short little quick punch that came to be knowb as the phantom punch. Ever so often he showed signs of short power.

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by yuanfen
WCis4me-old time? It was only yesterday <g>

BTW do you know what Ali was reportedly saying in that pic?
He was hollering at Liston to get up-because he was concerned that people wouldnt believe that Ali knoocked Liston out with the short little quick punch that came to be knowb as the phantom punch. Ever so often he showed signs of short power.
I didn't know that, thank you. I remember watching ali when I was pretty young. It was him that planted that seed of love in me for boxing (not so much now with the pros, it just isn't the same I prefer amateurs now). He was the greatest, there were other truly great ones during the time but dang that boy was good. Float like a butterfly sting like a beeeeeee....:D