There is no WCK [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Phil Redmond

06-19-2003, 09:20 AM

When I was in NYC I used to watch the White Crane people train, since they were in they same building as my Hung Ga school. It looked a lot like WC. Now I have a Chen style Tai chi sifu who studied under Sifu Ma Hong in China. He also does White Crane. I am amazed at how close they are. So you could be on to something. Who knows?

yuanfen

06-19-2003, 09:22 AM

Yang Ming(sp?) -the prolific author out of bean town and who is from Taiwan crane background claims that but I think he is wrong.
The YGKYM is the distinctive wing chun signature for me.

yuanfen

06-19-2003, 09:25 AM

Yang Ming(sp?) -the prolific author out of bean town and who is from Taiwan crane background claims that but I think he is wrong.
The YGKYM is the distinctive wing chun signature for me.

While the ygkym exists elsewhere- it is most fundamental in wing chun.

So- depends on the details of the meaning of "add on"".

fa_jing

06-19-2003, 09:32 AM

Last months' IKF showed a Southern Black Tiger practicioner performing a "low wing block" with a stance shift, that looked suspiciously like our low bon sao...

Jim Roselando

06-19-2003, 09:46 AM

Hello,

Intersting topic!

I think it seems to be the case! Its way too similar! All histories state that WC was a combo of Snake and Crane so if we believe in our own history, then we should believe White Crane is part of the root!

Joy,

Yang Jwing Ming is not a practitioner of Bak Hok Weng Chun but one of the other styles. Jumping, Eating, etc..

With regards to the YJKYM view! What would happen if you took the San Chin horse and pulled one leg back so they were side by side? Add in the Siu/Zhuang component and Wallah!

Gotta run!

Phenix

06-19-2003, 09:57 AM

OK Guys,GAls,

Some one called me White Crane Weng Chun not Wing Chun Kuen in other forum. hahahah

Prove me wrong. Come on, prove me wrong with evidents.

bring up the Shao Lin connection, the Weng Chun Tien of Hu Hui Chien, the Tan Sau Ng,... HAkka....... everything... All details to prove me wrong about WCK.

Otherwise, I will show you a picture every day in this post to drag you down to your knees to nail you that There is NO WCK.:D

WCK is just a soft vertion of White Crane Wing Chun.

Now Champion your uniquness. Otherwise, you all agree that.

There is NO WCK. hahhahhahhahahaha:D

If there is NO WCK then all the Shao lin story ect are all make up.
See, LEE MAN NAU practice White Crane Wing Chun. and He is the only REAL person who exist in the history of Qing and evolution. So where is your ancestors? Where is Wong Wah Poh? Where is Leong Yee Tai? Where is Yik Kam? Where is Hung GAm Biu? Hung GAm is just a common name of the Rebel. And LEE MAN MAU is the leader of Hung GAM. So if there is a leader of HUng GAM named HUNG GAM BIU that has to be LEE MAN MAU.

AND Lee MAN Mau, practice White Crane Weng Chun from Fujian.
NOt SHAO LIN from North. NOt Shao Lin from South, NOt Chi Shim's ART , NOT HUNG GAR, BUT,---- White Crane WEng Chun from Fujian.

-----------------

hahahah, I am playing the bad guy Je*K now. you all are police. Catch me with evidents. Nail me in the court of history.

(hey , just having fun, don't get carry away):D

PaulH

06-19-2003, 10:05 AM

You win, Hendrix. My distant ancestor Long Nose has remarkable resemblance to the White Crane WC. Another nail to the coffin is the fact he choose to call his style Wing Bird.

Regards,

Phenix

06-19-2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
You win, Hendrix. My distant ancestor Long Nose has remarkable resemblance to the White Crane WC. Another nail to the coffin is the fact he choose to call his style Wing Bird.

Regards,

Paul,

NOTHING about Win or Lost.

The fun part is in the process to argue and argue and asking for prove..... the torturing or the History Chi Sau. It one can't even prove there is uniqueness of WCK, where the ORIGINAL can sustain?

The bottom line of my role as a bad guy is I don't want to WIN.
I love to see you in a helpless state trying to prove that

THERE IS WCK. hahahaha:D

Good that I am an WCK practitioner. Otherwise, I will storm RENE's WEB SITE and proven his archive is all wrong! hahahhaha

________
Hey just joking ok.

PaulH

06-19-2003, 10:43 AM

Hendrix, you have just stumbled on the greatest discovery of the Grand Unification theory. As we cannot prove that we are exclusive, it is logical to infer that WCK is inclusive. And since it is inclusive we have just successfully landed on the basis that every body is the same and that there is no such thing as styles. Bruce was right all along. The man is a genius!

Regards,

Phenix

06-19-2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
When I was in NYC I used to watch the White Crane people train, since they were in they same building as my Hung Ga school. It looked a lot like WC. Now I have a Chen style Tai chi sifu who studied under Sifu Ma Hong in China. He also does White Crane. I am amazed at how close they are. So you could be on to something. Who knows?

Phil,

I agree with you. There are lots behind the two.

anerlich

06-19-2003, 03:37 PM

If this topic anoy you, please do not response to it.

Hey buddy, you talkin' to me?

Some theorists have it that WC evolved from the influence of Western boxing on KF when Gwailos started to visit the East. That theory's somewhat less likely but just as unprovable.

I thought the Bubishi had it that Karate evolved from White Crane as well, FWIW.

In most human endeavors, few truly great things srping into being fully formed and beyond improvement. WC is more than likely a synthesis or evolution of another, or several other sources. The pole got added later, for at least one.

In the long run, it's a historical curiosity, more power to you if that floats your boat, but IMO it makes little if any difference to the present or future.

FIRE HAWK

06-19-2003, 03:40 PM

What is the difference between Dr. Yangs Fukien White Crane and Bak Hok Weng Chun , I thought they were the same styles ?

Jim Roselando

06-19-2003, 07:49 PM

Hello,

I thought the Bubishi had it that Karate evolved from White Crane as well, FWIW.

According to the Uechi practitioners, Okinawan arts evolved from something called Pang Guy Noon which was supposed to be White Crane. If you look at the Okinawan arts you will see they follow the same traditional numerology as the more intact south chinese arts like Jook Lum and White Crane. All start with San Chin or Som Bo Gin and they go up to 108. 3/18/108 etc..

What is the difference between Dr. Yangs Fukien White Crane and Bak Hok Weng Chun , I thought they were the same styles ?

Does Yang do Fukien Eternal Crane or one of the five styles of Crane???? I spoke with him last week about Bak Hok Weng Chun and I thought it was not the Eternal Spring White Crane but one of the other Crane variations???? I will double check and get back to you! He teaches about 25 minutes from my house.

Regards,

yenhoi

06-19-2003, 09:39 PM

All this talk about Crane. What are the Snake elements to WCK?

:eek:

Phil Redmond

06-19-2003, 09:43 PM

I could be wrong but isn't there a Chinese White Crane and a Tibetan White Crane?

WCis4me

06-19-2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by yenhoi
All this talk about Crane. What are the Snake elements to WCK?

:eek:
After all this time reading some of the posts on this forum and you don't know yet????? tsk tsk;) :D

Phil Redmond

06-19-2003, 09:46 PM

The White Crane I know of uses a lot of angular stepping with bongs, tans, gans, etc. The snake uses linear strikes, biu jee, biu sau, etc.

yenhoi

06-23-2003, 05:20 PM

Ive never studied any other CMA then Wing Chun. I have no "official" clue as to which parts are crane and which snake.

Thanks tho ;)

:eek:

yenhoi

06-23-2003, 05:21 PM

If WCK is Crane/Snake... isent it the snake elements that make it unique from White Crane randomness?

:confused:

Phenix

06-23-2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by yenhoi
If WCK is Crane/Snake... isent it the snake elements that make it unique from White Crane randomness?

:confused:

Sure, have you see a Female Crane Style?:D

When a man sees a female Crane figthing and he created that style. That is Wing Chun kuen.

See, a female sees a Male crane will try to imitate the Male or Masculine.

But, when a female such as WingChun sees a Female Crane fight.
She just adopt it as it is. No need to change.

But then, when the male studying a female Crane style. then the male has to give up the masculine.... to become soft.

Make sense?:D

Miles Teg

06-23-2003, 05:52 PM

There is no WCK?
So there is no Karate? So basically there is no anything. Everything is affected by everything. Even in small ways. This is a silly topic because even if White Crane is almost identical one little difference is enough to define it a different style. Ling Tings W.T is different enough from other W.C that he could call it something completely different if he so desired. E.g southern centerline boxing or something. Then you add a few centuries to it and you have hundreds of variations of it and something quite different but wiht amazing similarities at the same time.

So remind me what the point of this topic is again?

yuanfen

06-23-2003, 06:38 PM

Miles asks:
So remind me what the point of this topic is again?
-----------------------------------------------------

The shadow knows?

yenhoi

06-23-2003, 07:14 PM

Phenix: Why would the soft crane import snake? Or does it not import snake?

I dont think I get it, but you are the most helpful.

:eek:

Phenix

06-23-2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by Miles Teg
There is no WCK?
So there is no Karate? So basically there is no anything. Everything is affected by everything. Even in small ways. ....
So remind me what the point of this topic is again?

The point is very very clear. So what is the uniqueness of WCK?
If one cann't spell it out very clearly. Then, WCK is just a name without content.

Can't say there is no Karata. Kyukushin has both SanChin and Muay Thai modification kicks... That is Kyukushin's uniqueness.

:D

Phenix

06-23-2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by yenhoi
Phenix: Why would the soft crane import snake? Or does it not import snake?

I dont think I get it, but you are the most helpful.

:eek:

Hey, Hey, I am just having fun with you guys.

See, the snake. what is snake? that needs to be defined. Otherwise, it is just a symbol with no content.

Snake can be a shape or a type of motion. So, that has to be defined.

Is it a snake shape adding a Crane Shape to make WCK?
Or is it a snake movement embeded in the art combine with the potential of Crane which makes WCK.

Hahahaha, until one clearly define it there is no WCK. :D

yylee

06-23-2003, 09:10 PM

you guys see anything familiar here?

http://www.aei.ca/~straycat/kungfu/w-crane.html

http://www.rembrandt.gen.nz/white_crane/

PaulH

06-23-2003, 09:32 PM

Hendrix,

I don't know if you are capable to realize this or not, but the Matrix has just unplugged the real thread of WCK history. The black vested suit men are coming to assault this last remaining thread of WCners soon enough. Do you have the special key to unlock this riddle of existence or not? Time is running out. Open the door quickly! You are our only hope!

Regards,

Phenix

06-23-2003, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrix,

I don't know if you are capable to realize this or not, but the Matrix has just unplugged the real thread of WCK history. The black vested suit men are coming to assault this last remaining thread of WCners soon enough. Do you have the special key to unlock this riddle of existence or not? Time is running out. Open the door quickly! You are our only hope!

Regards,

Oh no. While I am reading the order of phoenix.

and somehow, Fotimo get me trapped in the Red Junk and witness how the Qi with the mongolian wrestle killed a few Shao Lin monks and WCK.

One monk enter with a knee and he was taken wrest down... then JeeSin was killed by White Eyebows because of his wide horse stance...

Everyone is on the run. The center line punch has no used against the qing because they hit the elbow of WCners or the side chest point of the lung medirians.....

The YGKYM was tolally destroyed. Because the YGKYM's can be model by two upside down V and the waist section is the weakest link.... they break the WCner's via a down ward punch direct to the waist from chest sliding down while the Wcners do the Tan Sau.....

Most people, Wong Wah poh was in hiding, Leong Yee Dai has fleet. Yik Kam and Cho soon jump out of boat.... It is the ambus of the Fine Jade..... lots die... Lee Man Mau fleet

It is a horible horible thing to witness all what happen here...... they starts burning boat now.....

will wck survive after this?

1852... six month 15 night full moon

everyone is on his own now. No hero just human.......

Miles Teg

06-23-2003, 11:24 PM

Righty oh

yylee

06-23-2003, 11:27 PM

LOL! sounds like a new TVB TV series, episode one!

too bad Lum Jing Ying and Leslie Cheung are not with us anymore, otherwise they could be Leung Yee Tai and Yik Kam. Sammo Hun can still be Wong Wah Bo. :D

PaulH

06-24-2003, 08:45 AM

Hendrix,

1852... six month 15 night full moon. Clik! Clik!

Got cha! The portal has just been opened. Noooo!... Where do these humongous human-like snakes come from? They are crushing every squirming WCners like me. Where are the butterfly swords when I need them most? Where are the crane bird in my most desperate hour? Somebody send me the 6 1/2 pole...Aarg! Aarg! The rest is silent...

Phenix

06-24-2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by yylee
LOL! sounds like a new TVB TV series, episode one!

too bad Lum Jing Ying and Leslie Cheung are not with us anymore, otherwise they could be Leung Yee Tai and Yik Kam. Sammo Hun can still be Wong Wah Bo. :D

YY,

Yup. Lesli and Lum can play those both...

Saga continous,...

Yip Ming-San order to totally burn down the opera house and kill whoever has red banner on thier head....

Godden brought his INVINCIBLE fire arm solder in cycling the place... in a night which light up by the blaze of the hand blaze.

under the blaze no one spare...... no kungfu can resist bullets.....

The Qing is winning. and the solder beside the westerners are people from Hu Nan and Hu Bei.... Chen Kuo-FAn
s solder. and Some from SanDong.... The solder of Ma Yee-Sin.....

It is not about Qi Vesus Mandarin. It is about Power and self-righteousness...... Kungfu lost in the face of scientific-----fire arm...

Phenix

06-24-2003, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrix,

1852... six month 15 night full moon. Clik! Clik!

Got cha! The portal has just been opened. Noooo!... Where do these humongous human-like snakes come from? They are crushing every squirming WCners like me. Where are the butterfly swords when I need them most? Where are the crane bird in my most desperate hour? Somebody send me the 6 1/2 pole...Aarg! Aarg! The rest is silent...

.... They fleet to the west of the city..... Towards Guan Xi .... hiding.. but the army from out of state or northern were chasing them.... those are Wu Nan and Wu Bei and Northern solders....
They are the followers of Cheng Kuo Fan.. It is not a war between Qing and Madarin....

It is about Cheng Kuo-Fan and Hung Siew-Chien. The top comandor of Qing and The God's second son....
Nothing right and wrong. It is MO KAn Do or never ending way... it is about you score me once and I score you next. And the one last longer will win...... And Lee Man Mau... Wong Wah bo... are just a chess pice of these two chief.... They knows, Godon's arms from the USA and GR are what they need. Kung Fu?... just warm body to play thier game.... The military training of Ming can no longer fight in the batterfield of 1852...

So will WCK survive? after those artists run away?..................

We need Matrix to go back to that time......

David Jamieson

06-24-2003, 01:58 PM

Oldstyle Hung Gar uses the stance. Also Four lower tigers (ha say fu hung gar) and many other styles use the yee gee kim yung ma stance, pigeon toe, goat catching stance, whatever.

There is no mystery that you see similarities in forms and applications that are all derived from the same point. IE Shaolin Temple Fist methods.

Wing Chun is a distillation of fighting concepts, packaged neatly into three forms, an augmentation piece and two weapons. It is meant to be taught quickly and for someone to become adept at it inside of 2 years. That is it's whole purpose in it's beginnings.

Teach people to fight and make sure they learn fast because the man is at teh gate and we need those fighters.

anerlich- many who practice martial arts take offense at the term gwai lo btw. I prefer honky mofo myself :D

There is indeed Tibetan crane, Chinese Crane and Okinawan Crane. They share very superficial similarity and are not the same systems at all.

As for snake in WC, just keep practicing the thrusting fingers set until you understand where the snake is.

Bong sau is common to a great deal of kungfu styles, particular those of the southern hailing.

Afterall, a human body is a human body, afetr a few thousand years, it's been figured what it is and how it works in combat, martial "arts" are an expression of that understanding in part.

cheers

p.s, you may now return to your regularly scheduled lineage bickering and name calling. :D hahahaha...gotcha

yuanfen

06-24-2003, 02:10 PM

Hi Kung Lek- the devil is in the details of the ygkym... and the differences are greater than the similarities in its usage across styles.

Sure its all the human body but permutations and combinations are many and makes a difference.

Sure there are disagrrements here- but on the whole makes for an active forum- compared to the others.

Phenix

06-24-2003, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen

Sure there are disagrrements here- but on the whole makes for an active forum- compared to the others.

Joy,

YUP. It is better to generate lots and lots of disagreements.... and can discuss them openly. otherwise it is dead....

I agree with you all the details.....

David Jamieson

06-24-2003, 04:14 PM

The Buddha said(and I'll roughly paraphrase)

"If you do not question, you fail to learn, so ask questions and take nothing at face value, not even me."

Disagreement is the impetus to prove. If there is no disagreement, there will be no proof, if you cannot prove something, it is not important overall. Just an observation.

cheers