Chi-Sao is NOT sparring. [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Ultimatewingchun

06-19-2003, 01:46 PM

One learns certain skills from chi sao which then can be used to make ones abilities in san sao, sparring, fighting, etc. - BETTER.

It is not an either/ or situation. If wing chun is you're chosen art then frequent amounts of chi sao AND sparring are in order....

including sparring drills, light spontaneoous sparring without wearing gear AND frequent hard contact sparring with equipment.

Now if you then want to throw in some grappling as well then you've really started to cover alot of NECESSARY bases...in terms ofunarmed combat.

But the idea that tons of chi sao with little or no sparring will do it for you is foolish....as is the idea that the only way to learn how to fight is to go pick a fight...Hard Contact soarring (and grappling) will go a long way towards preparation for a real fight.

Don't go looking for fights...but if they come...GO FOR IT !

yuanfen

06-19-2003, 03:16 PM

same old same old reiterations.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

PaulH

06-19-2003, 03:17 PM

Actually, Ernie's talk about maximum security prison and the psychotic killers there would give you a better sense of preparation for real fighting should you ever get into it. Against the kind whose mind intents solely on maining or killing you, no chi sau, sparring or beimo would adequately prepare your normal mind for it. You really need a fighting mind if you ever have a chance to survive. Honestly of the many WC that I know including mine they are all too nice and too civilized for this kind of brutal and barbaric fighting.

Regards,

vingtsunstudent

06-19-2003, 03:24 PM

and sparring is and never will be anything like a real fight.
so the piont is?

vts

PaulH

06-19-2003, 03:30 PM

Good to have you back! The point is when do we actually train this fighting mind in our training? How do you train this so far?

Regards,

WCis4me

06-19-2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by vingtsunstudent
and sparring is and never will be anything like a real fight.
so the piont is?

vts
To me the point is that sparring is the closest you can get to the 'real thing' to test your skills and improve them. That way you don't have to be some thug going out on the street looking for fights to check out your stuff, it would be immoral and stupid. Better to test as close as you can get, in a structured environment, before you are forced to test your skills, in a more dangerous 'real life' situation, and then find out you needed to improve how you handled, lets say, for example, a round kick to your ribs. Makes good sense don't you think?

BTW to keep on track with this actual thread........my opinion is that chi sao is a tool to enhance the rest, but is not sparring in itself. However, I am not advanced enough to know if I am 100% correct in my current opinion on Chi Sao, it is just how I see it at this point.

Regards,
Vicky

pseudoswitch

06-19-2003, 04:36 PM

Ultimate Wing Chun > Is your website down? Anyway i just wanted to ask you what systems of grappling you train in?

Cheers

ntc

06-19-2003, 04:47 PM

WC4isme:

Chi Sao can really be grouped into three major categories:

- first type involves helping the individual to develop sensitivity in the arms so that the person is able to correctly sense the energy flow in the opponent and hence be able to apply the proper trapping/counter moves.

- second type is more application oriented and is one step above the first. There is also the focus on the structure versus just the arms. In addition to sensitivity, the individual learns to apply a lot of the moves learned from the forms (especially the 2nd and 3rd forms) and the dummy set. Moving sticky hands allows an individual to be able to stick not only to your opponents arms, but to his structure as well. It also helps you develop the ability to not only trap one's arms, but the whole body structure as well.

- third type is more like sparring, typically called "Lut Sao Chi Sao" (Dropped Hand Stick Hand), which basically means non-contacting sticky hands. Here you learn to create a bridge from where you are (most likley away from the opponent), determining the right gates to enter, dissecting your opponent's structureal weakness, then build the bridge, and with the bridge apply sticky hands.

Here is something interesting to share with you.... "if one needs to hit you, one needs to touch you; if the person strikes, you use your arms to counter (of course, the legs as well when appropriate); when one touches your arms, then it becomes sticky hands (when the encounter is with the legs, it becomes sticky legs, or chi gerk"

WCis4me

06-19-2003, 07:17 PM

Thank you ntc.
Yes I see now that my knowlege of it is very limited, I figured it was. Thank you for sharing with me, I am looking forward to when I get to the point where I have more 'hands on experience' pardon the pun :D, and then I will have a better understanding.

Regards,
Vicky

EnterTheWhip

06-19-2003, 09:58 PM

Of course it isn't. Thank God....!

KenWingJitsu

06-20-2003, 12:06 AM

A better question would be how sparring can develop certain WC skills better than the Chi Sau approach.
Simple. A real fight situation begins where? With both arms touching? or not? Spar accordingly and there lies the answer.

What is so unique about sparring that Chi Sau can't duplicate? Chi-sao is meant to teach (among other things) that split second when arms come in contact with each other for the briefest of moments. So you've trained for that brief moment. Great......now what about all the other "moments"?

If wing chun is you're chosen art then frequent amounts of chi sao AND sparring are in order.... ultimatewingchun...correct....as usual.

and sparring is and never will be anything like a real fight. Horrifyingly incorrect.

To me the point is that sparring is the closest you can get to the 'real thing' to test your skills and improve them. Beautifully.......correct.

my opinion is that chi sao is a tool to enhance the rest, but is not sparring in itself. As above,...correct.

Chi Sao can really be grouped into three major categories:...... third type is more like sparring, typically called "Lut Sao Chi Sao" (Dropped Hand Stick Hand), which basically means non-contacting sticky hands. Here you learn to create a bridge from where you are Not only correct, but the KEY to this thread for those who want to get a clue and break away from just "chi-saoing"....get some lat-sao! Progress!

Here is something interesting to share with you.... "if one needs to hit you, one needs to touch you; if the person strikes, you use your arms to counter (of course, the legs as well when appropriate); when one touches your arms, then it becomes sticky hands (when the encounter is with the legs, it becomes sticky legs, or chi gerk" And this quote goes back to my first statement about contact...........pre-contact, and "brief moment" contact. Build it, and it will come. :)
Discussions on the right track.

namron

06-20-2003, 02:17 AM

A bit like a jig saw puzzle piece, only part of the whole.

Staring at that piece wont make the puzzle complete and you will be forever blind to the full picture.

Mystic prattlings but its about where its at IMO.

EnterTheWhip

06-20-2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Chi-sao is meant to teach (among other things) that split second when arms come in contact with each other for the briefest of moments. A very common misperception of chi sau.

So you've trained for that brief moment. Great......now what about all the other "moments"? Something HUGE is missing from your chi sau, if this is your mentality.

Ernie

06-20-2003, 07:54 AM

ken,
sparring for the sake of competing against other martial artist
or sparring for a street fight, very different mindsets
you would have to add multiple attackers and weapons , elevation changes , standing ,kneeling ,gound ,
toss a knife in while threr on the ground and a few more guys to give you a simulated shoe job , work the clinch with a few other guys taking shots at you ,
learn how to use the human shield.
through in some sticks to train footwork and range .
and do all this as one round so you have to deal witha changing enviroment and all the $hit that can happen in the street plus the emotions and conditioning factors you have to go through .
that's progressive sparring .
two dudes sqauring off padded up and just try to sock or submit each other is as limited as chi sau in the grand scheme of street fighting.
progression/stress over load/refine
just my two tears in a bucket

Ultimatewingchun

06-20-2003, 08:18 AM

pseudoswitch:

Catch-as-catch-can Wrestling

*******************

Yuanfen:

Then go to sleep....we'll wake you when it's time to chi sao...and then you can show us how that's really all you need along with some light contact san sao....

06-20-2003, 08:39 AM

Hi Victor. Something interesting caught my eye in your post. It was the word "need." That seems to be a very relative term with tons of implications. Since it's tangential to this thread, I'll post a separate thread in hopes of spurring some possibly interesting, if academic, discussion and exploration on that topic.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

AndrewS

06-20-2003, 08:40 AM

Ernie,

you have it dead on, man.

3 guys who may or may not have guns, talking sh*t, a buddy tripping b*lls getting froggy with a knife, a sucker punch while you're chatting up a lady, a seizing patient who needs to be held down while a central line is placed, a raving homeless junkie with probable blood-born disease- sparring doesn't do a lot to prepare you for these scenarios. You get used to some impact, but the mind-frame and skills are totally different.

The mano-a-mano-square-off-and-brawl mentality is standard primate dominance hierarchy bullsh*t, and once you know the game, you can play it, rather than let it play you.

Banging is fun- good training, good learning for certain types of timing, and good experience working with resistance, but it's not the be-all, end-all. To me, that sort of work is for my own development and enjoyment, but different resistance scenarios are needed for different training goals.

Think about how you'd train your little sister in a year to take care of herself- how much classical 'square off and go' sparring to you want to take up time-wise with her (and how much chi sao for that matter)?

Later,

Andrew

P.S. On the original topic- chi sao is definitely not sparring- it's a lab for skill development, suited to developing certain skills. Turning it into a brawl does little for the skills of the guy trying to get over.

Ernie

06-20-2003, 09:05 AM

andrew
what's up big guy,
just wanted to thank you out loud for the workout / seminar the other day .it was very cool to find some as sick twisted and deminted as myself . and much props to you skills .
your good people and if any one ever gets the chance i recomend they drop by your school .
peace.
p.s. ever get the vcd working ha..

AndrewS

06-20-2003, 09:27 AM

Hey Ernie,

yeah, that was serious fun. The work you've done shows clearly. A couple of things you showed me and were doing gave me a very nice different perspective on some stuff which I've been working on.

We need to get together and play regularily. I'm on call Sunday so the Pasadena thing is out (do you know if it's on for July 4th weekend? That's my next free Sunday). If you've got some time Saturday afternoon, I'm free then (beside having to torture my girlfriend with kettlebell work).

And no, I haven't gotten the *&&^(**&^ VCD to work. . .

Later,

Andrew

Ernie

06-20-2003, 09:32 AM

i got a couple of white water rafting trips coming the 4th is one of them another in august.
i'll call you on sat. i'll train in the morning but after i might be open.
i'll make you a new cd with all of gary's clips so you can watch them on your pc. if you work in the l.a. area i can drop it off during the week
peace.

KenWingJitsu

06-20-2003, 10:22 AM

A very common misperception of chi sau......Something HUGE is missing from your chi sau, if this is your mentality. Me thinks it is your intepretation of chi-sao that is sorely lacking. When you want to find out what it is, read my posts again.

Ernie, Andrew....has again eloquently put things into perspective. There are several possible scenarios when training for a fight as you mentioned. Training each of them in "sparring mode" should be the ultimate goal. No matter if it's challenge fights, 'street fights', self defense, or competition. There is a term I love......."Isolated Sparring". Depending on your goal you can isolate the type of scenario you want to focus on and limit the parameters of it, but if it remains true to the 'fight model' i.e spontaneous attack and defense, unpredictable offense & defense, and SPONTANEOUS reactions to offense and defense,...then it IS sparring...even if you only isolate a certain scenario, or a certain range (like the clinch).

Andrew where the hell have you been man? I lost your e-mail (again) I was gonna e-mail you about some stuff.

AndrewS

06-20-2003, 10:50 AM

Ernie,

cool, let's play phone tag. The school is out as a meeting location- it's Pride, and the place is a mob scene. There's a park in Hollywood off Fountain by one of my bro's places that is a decent place to work (might be able to suck him in too, Louvel is family- dear friend and excellent training partner).

Dhira,

I've been all over. I hit the east coast for a week, dealing with some family stuff and throwing a wake for three of my bros. Add to that my conditioning/weight work, trying to get some grappling in, and the fact I have someone on vacation at work, and I'm scary busy.

Later,

Andrew

EnterTheWhip

06-20-2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Me thinks it is your intepretation of chi-sao that is sorely lacking. Of course you do. I wouldn't expect any more from you.

As for your posts.... not necessary to read them. Reading only a few sentences by you, I am able to sum your understanding of WC.

Edmund

06-21-2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
There is a term I love......."Isolated Sparring". Depending on your goal you can isolate the type of scenario you want to focus on and limit the parameters of it, but if it remains true to the 'fight model' i.e spontaneous attack and defense, unpredictable offense & defense, and SPONTANEOUS reactions to offense and defense,...then it IS sparring...even if you only isolate a certain scenario, or a certain range (like the clinch).

Hi Ken,

In Pan Nam WC chi sao, there is no luk sao - no preset rolling of hands. There is no defined starting position and each person is free to use any hand technique they like. Wouldn't this be a type of isolated sparring?

KenWingJitsu

06-21-2003, 06:27 PM

As for your posts.... not necessary to read them....blah blah blah de blah blah burp...blah
Goodness Enter the whip. Then why are you responding if you haven't read them? lol. Go back to sitting atop wing chun mountain and theorize there all by yourself. When you have something intelligent to add,.......never mind...you never do. I think I'll stand by my earlier quote which is something Leung Ting said to me and believe it rather than what you think; if you dont mind.
You have just been backhanded.:D

In Pan Nam WC chi sao, there is no luk sao - no preset rolling of hands. There is no defined starting position and each person is free to use any hand technique they like. Wouldn't this be a type of isolated sparring?
Edmund, ABSOLUTELY! Especially if the intent of the attacker is unknown and there is REAL spontanaity, then yes! it is isolated sparring.

old jong

06-22-2003, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Of course it isn't. Thank God....!

Chi Sau is what makes Wing Chun,Wing Chun. There are specific Wing Chun skills that will never be developped in any other way.
You could spar,roll on the ground,enroll in a circus if you want and it will be fine as long as you don't neglect your core training witch is Chi Sau. ;)

Sam

06-22-2003, 08:58 AM

Chi Sao is not sparring as sparring is not fighting. They are both enhancement practice for fighting. The way a scope on a gun enhances how accurate you can shoot. Chi Sao enhances the transition from offense to defense and blends both till you can't tell where one begins or one ends. In Fut Sao Wing Chun there are many types of Chi Sao such as single hand, two hands, Chi Gerk, San Sau, break distance free style, body and head gear full contact, two man form total body Chi Sao. http://www.geocities.com/wingchunbuddhahand/index.html

yuanfen

06-22-2003, 09:02 AM

ETW and Old Jong are absolutely correct. Chi Sao is the core lab of wing chun. One doesnt have to do wing chun to rumble.
But chi sao is an essential core to developing wing chun skillsand wing chun approach to devloping the skills for self defense.

Sparring in the common usage of the word is not chi sao- though in MP's definition - aspects of chi sao can parrallel the term sparring.

Neither sparring, nor chi sao are fighting. Both are are simulations, skill developers and occasions for experimentation.
For wingchunners entering sport kick boxing competition- some sparring is ok. But for learning wing chun and also for avtual self defense- chi sao is the key. Improving one's chi sao- doing it with different paeople with different body structures- is an essential part of the wing chun way

When the sparring(with some form of gloves) to chi sao ratio
goes up wing chun skill devlopment is arrested.

BTW- re sparring and chi sao- I have done both... so my views are not occasions for only arm chair thinking.

old jong

06-22-2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen

When the sparring(with some form of gloves) to chi sao ratio
goes up wing chun skill devlopment is arrested.

100% correct.

06-22-2003, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Sam
Chi Sao is not sparring as sparring is not fighting. They are both enhancement practice for fighting. The way a scope on a gun enhances how accurate you can shoot. [/url]

Sam, this is a great analogy.
- kj

EnterTheWhip

06-22-2003, 10:00 AM

If you don't understand what your chi sau is for (physically, not mentally/verbally), then you may 1) fight like you chi sau or 2)believe sparring is essential, and therefore fight like you spar.

Wing Chun at its highest levels and teachings has a myriad of drills and exercises to prepare you for a real life threatening situation, not an ego threatening one.

old jong

06-22-2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip

Wing Chun at its highest levels and teachings has a myriad of drills and exercises to prepare you for a real life threatening situation, not an ego threatening one.

Correct!

The need to transform Wing Chun in something else (Does'nt mean that "something else" is no good) is to me a sign of a lack of patience or willing to work to gain the skills proper to Wing Chun.It can also be caused by the fear of not "being ready" in the advent of a possible confrontation so the person want to "Live it in advance" to reassure himself in the face of his fears.
There is also the MMA's fad.

EnterTheWhip

06-22-2003, 10:16 AM

Wow old jong! That's probably the best post I've read of yours.

old jong

06-22-2003, 10:24 AM

Thanks EnterTheWhip!...

;)

06-22-2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Wow old jong! That's probably the best post I've read of yours.

In reference to:

Originally posted by Old Jong
The need to transform Wing Chun in something else (Does'nt mean that "something else" is no good) is to me a sign of a lack of patience or willing to work to gain the skills proper to Wing Chun.It can also be caused by the fear of not "being ready" in the advent of a possible confrontation so the person want to "Live it in advance" to reassure himself in the face of his fears.
There is also the MMA's fad.

Yes, Old Jong is especially "on" in this and some other threads today.

Regards,
- kj

ZIM

06-22-2003, 12:19 PM

The fly is rubbing it's forelegs & backlegs together, listening...

Ng Mui: "...well, let's see how it would work out, what do you say? Here, hold your hands like this, so then maybe if I do this..."

Yim Wing Chun: '.. hmm...but in order to not use force, like you were saying, I'd have to..."

Ng Mui: "Right! You're good, you know that? Quick learner..."

[the fly says to himself: 'ah..chi sao came first']

Yim Wing Chun: "Thank you, that is quite an honor. But is this how fighting goes?"

Ng Mui: "No. But why so impatient? You don't want to fight me, you want to fight him..."

Yim Wing Chun: "Sparring then?"

Ng Mui: "I don't know that word. Can you kill that fly? Its distracting me."

*pok!*

Ng Mui: "Good move. Let's keep that."

Ultimatewingchun

06-22-2003, 02:39 PM

"When the sparring (with some form of gloves) ratio to chi sao goes up wing chun skill development is arrested..."

This is the latest repackaged version of the false and empty idea that IT HAS TO BE ONE OR THE OTHER. (Either chi sao or sparring with gloves)....or the related idea that very infrequent and just occasional sparring with gloves along with MOSTLY chi sao is the only way to keep one's wing chun skills at a high level - ALSO A FALSE NOTION.

If one is training say at least three days a week - at let's say a minimum of two hours per class....Is anyone suggesting that spending just ONE HOUR per week (that's one out of six )sparring with protective equipment including gloves (for advanced practitoners) WILL SOMEHOW DIMINSH ONE'S WING CHUN SKILLS ?....Because one should have spent that hour doing chi sao ?...Even though that same person might have already spent as much as perhaps 2.5 - 3 out of the remaing 5 hours doing chi sao ?...This way of thinking is always a tipoff to me that those who believe this still fail to realize that chi sao (in all its various forms) is only a drill...and not as close to fighting as sparring is...and that the ultimate purpose of chi sao is to prepare one for sparring/fighting. One has to constantly WORK at translating what one learns in this drill we call chi sao to the actual language of combat - and the best way of doing that is through sparring drills (ie.- "isolated sparring") - and actual sparring itself-with protective equipment (IMO).

To use the driving and seatbelt analogy once again: The type of "chi sao is the king" mentality described above is like the driving student who constantly practices how to get into the car, puts on the seatbelts, checks all the mirrors, makes sure the emergency brake is off, starts the ignition, looks in all directions before taking off, drives very slowly down isolated one way streets, etc..

And gets real good at all these things but ALMOST NEVER GETS ON THE HIGHWAY....LOL

yuanfen

06-22-2003, 02:59 PM

Victor- you must have a picture of Ip man with gloves- with head gear too per chance?

Edmund

06-22-2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by ZIM
[the fly says to himself: 'ah..chi sao came first']

San sao comes first I think. Starting from a non-contact position learning basic defences and attacks.

ZIM

06-22-2003, 06:55 PM

Edmund-

What do I know? I don't practice your art- I'm just familiar with it.
Just a story that I hoped you liked. :)

WRT san sao [??] is that sparring? Sparring may be different or not traditional but its still needed surely? Or eventually?

OK, will leave your forum to you all. :)

EnterTheWhip

06-22-2003, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The type of "chi sao is the king" mentality described above is like the driving student who constantly practices how to get into the car, puts on the seatbelts, checks all the mirrors, makes sure the emergency brake is off, starts the ignition, looks in all directions before taking off, drives very slowly down isolated one way streets, etc..

And gets real good at all these things but ALMOST NEVER GETS ON THE HIGHWAY....LOL So, what you're saying is that SPARRING=REAL SITUATION.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Is anyone suggesting that spending just ONE HOUR per week (that's one out of six )sparring with protective equipment including gloves (for advanced practitoners) WILL SOMEHOW DIMINSH ONE'S WING CHUN SKILLS ?
Yes, and you're the perfect example of this.

vingtsunstudent

06-22-2003, 09:32 PM

Horrifyingly incorrect.

well KWJ, i would have to say for someone who likes to rant on about reality you have absolutely no idea if you think sparring will ever be the same as facing an opponent or 4 on the street.

there is a big difference between worrying about getting a black eye, broken nose or slight concusion during the playing of handsies with someone and the possibility that the bloke you fight on the street may kick your head in whilst your knocked out on the ground, or do you believe that these things don't happen in reality because you've never seen it in a UFC.

i asked you once on another thread but for some reason you didn't answer, so if it's cool with you i'll ask again.

in your profile it says you have trained for years in a no. of styles,
could you tell us exactly how long in each esp. wing chun and also do you mind me asking if you feel you have enough time to fully understand them all whilst spreading yourself amongst so many at once?

vts

Edmund

06-22-2003, 10:07 PM

Zim,

Frankly you were trying to make a point in a rather daft way - via a parable.

WRT to san sao, it does not directly translate as "sparring" IMO.
It is more literally "non contact techniques". It does not imply any competition.

As for it being needed, it depends on how it is done.
A woman is not going to be faced with a mano a mano square off situation that she can usually win - though some do try. They could be better served by sparring in a different way.

Guys like Geoff Thompson use other types of street scenarios rather than just sparring.

Originally posted by ZIM
Edmund-

What do I know? I don't practice your art- I'm just familiar with it.
Just a story that I hoped you liked. :)

WRT san sao [??] is that sparring? Sparring may be different or not traditional but its still needed surely? Or eventually?

OK, will leave your forum to you all. :)

Miles Teg

06-23-2003, 12:03 AM

My old W.C teacher once said to me: `in a real fight Im not scared of anyone, because we all have the same weak spots. But if I have to put on the gloves and gear, Id be afraid to fight some of my own students'

How can regular sparring make for a good learning environment in your W.C school?
The mere act of trying to inflict pain on your partner indicates lack of respect for them. If you have great respect for your partner then I find it difficult to believe that you could spar in the `all out/no hold back' manner that knife fighter suggests.
If your teacher or seniors wanted to, they could destroy you in sparring. If they don‚” then they are holding back - an unrealistic scenario. If they do, they are a$$ holes who get high on power trips. I also suggest that getting the sh!t kicked out of you is not the most productive way one can learn either, especially if you don‚” know what hit you or you get put out of action due to injury for a few weeks.

With chi sau the teacher can exploit your weaknesses in a way that doesnt harm you and encourages better responses in a shorter time in the perfect learning environment (minimal pain, non-competitive). In chi sau we become adept at finding/creating openings which we capitalize on. This is awesome because it teaches us to react in the most efficient way without thinking much. The main thing sparring has that Chi Sau doesnt is the actual connection of strikes + power. In other words, the feeling of someones nose breaking under your fist or the feeling of taking the hit - basically the pain.
I still think sparring need only be a testing ground with other martial styles outside of class time. I dont believe in it being part of the class curriculum when the time could be used so much more productively doing things like chi sau.

06-23-2003, 03:41 AM

Miles, that was an excellent elaboration. I couldn't agree more.
- kj

Ultimatewingchun

06-23-2003, 07:04 AM

Chi sao teaches certain things when one is standing directly square-on in front of ones partner with the agreed upon scenario that all 4 hands/arms will be in contact almost all the time and with a forward energy done in a rolling fashion....

How much more artificial do you want to get than that ? In terms of what DOESN'T happen in a fight ! And while it's true that equipment does hinder the ability to take advantage of certain weak points on the human body - the advantages gained by the kind of contact with both HANDS AND FEET - that sparring with equipment affords - is invaluable.

Again the tipoff to me that something is amiss is the fact that some people try to paint this as an either/or situation...AND FOR SOME UNEXPLAINED REASON ...

- they choose not to address the fact that ALL types of chi sao and sparring (including sparring without equipment) is being advocated by myself and some other folks - not just sparring with protective gear.

There is clearly an aversion to this type of sparring the resaons for which are not being acknowledged...What might they be ?

Ultimatewingchun

06-23-2003, 07:25 AM

What might they be?...aside from the usual cutesy but meaningless remark that such sparring doesn't help. WHY doesn't it help? Why doesn't the kind of hitting/kicking experience
it provides (both giving and receiving) help? In terms of getting closer to the reality of a real confrontation?

In terms of literally getting a feel in an intense way for what it means to be up against some who is coming in from a distance to hit you a number of times with some real power - perhaps mixing in some kicks to your legs or body (or your head) as well ? The kind of power that won't be used when sparring with out equipment for fear of injury?

Perhaps backing out of the distance as well? Perhaps moving form side to side? Not acting like a chi sao player?

Here's another question: Of those who object to this kind of sparring - How many times have you yourself tried it? Once? Twice? Three times? Never?

Phil Redmond

06-23-2003, 07:33 AM

Victor, you should ask;
Do football players just walk throught their plays or do they have practice games before they play an opposing team? How are you ever going to learn timing, distance, power absorbtion, how to issue power, etc., against a randomly moving/attacking target without sparring? Chi sau is necessary but doesn't cover all of that.

EnterTheWhip

06-23-2003, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Chi sao teaches certain things when one is standing directly square-on in front of ones partner with the agreed upon scenario that all 4 hands/arms will be in contact almost all the time and with a forward energy done in a rolling fashion.... Yes, this might be the general understanding of chi sau. Mine is a whole lot more dynamic than that, and then again, sometimes it is that simple. Depending on to which extent I'd like to take it - what levels I would like to train at.

yuanfen

06-23-2003, 07:37 AM

Since Victor asks:
Here's another question: Of those who object to this kind of sparring - How many times have you yourself tried it? Once? Twice? Three times? Never?
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Quite a bit. But when i grew up- I put childish things away...
in order to develop more wing chun skills.

But I am sure Victor and same old others will keep on saying the same old same old things- "spar"!

Where's the kung fu? Where's the wing chun?

EnterTheWhip

06-23-2003, 07:41 AM

This discussion is getting ridiculous...

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
How are you ever going to learn timing, distance, power absorbtion, how to issue power, etc., against a randomly moving/attacking target without sparring? Chi sau is necessary but doesn't cover all of that. Okay, chi sau is necessary for what, if not those things?

EnterTheWhip

06-23-2003, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Where's the kung fu? Where's the wing chun? EXACTLY! I can't believe this?? Andl these people teach Wing Chun? These people don't know Wing Chun!

Ultimatewingchun

06-23-2003, 07:48 AM

If using a training method that REALLY prepares one for combat is childish...then I don't want to be MAN that you are!

How many times did you say you trained like this? Can you be specific - for just once? Exactly what types of technigues were used? How much protective gear did you use? What were the rules? Did your partners throw anything at you other than wing chun ?

What happened? Why did you eventually conclude that this was childish? How and why did you conclude that it didn't teach you anything?

Specific answers are the key here...Everything else is just cutesy meaningless chest thumping with nothing to back it up....

yuanfen

06-23-2003, 08:07 AM

Victor- not chest thumping. Trust me- been there done that.
Details would be unseemly chest thumping.
Wing chun without glove work and without catch as catch can-
when properly learned is far more serious business.

Ultimatewingchun

06-23-2003, 08:09 AM

Phil:

Good analogy. Let me add this - football teams practice without pads (and without hard blocking, tackling, etc.) - and WITH the pads for the heavy contact closer they get to game day, SO THAT THEY WILL BE READY.

This conversation is getting to be a joke - some people are advocating going out and streetfighting vs. 4 guys while others want to chi sao all day...LOL

yuanfen

06-23-2003, 08:20 AM

Victor sez:
then I don't want to be MAN that you are
------------------------------------------------------------
Victor-
Suggest you dont go there- bad imitation would be the worst form of flattery.
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Phil suggests:
Victor, you should ask;
Do football players just walk throught their plays or do they have practice games before they play an opposing team? How are you ever going to learn timing, distance, power absorbtion, how to issue power, etc., against a randomly moving/attacking target without sparring? Chi sau is necessary but doesn't cover all of that.
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Phil:
1. football is a game- you can win with a 7-6 score.

2. Chi sau does cover all that. The problem is that after recent posts including specially from Vicky- rather than serious discussion the posts can easily dteriorate into charges of being down on TWC or Wt or some such thing. Not worth it.
Good luck to those who advocate sparring over chi sao and call either "the real world".

Ultimatewingchun

06-23-2003, 08:23 AM

Yuanfen:

That's the whole point - I DON'T TRUST YOU.

I don't trust what you're saying because you NEVER even attempt to back it up with details - you only hurl criticism of things YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVEN'T DONE - and you do it with a self righteous I'm-above-it-all attitude.

You're not above it - you're afraid of it.

yuanfen

06-23-2003, 08:36 AM

Victor sez:

You're not above it - you're afraid of it.
-------------------------------------------------------
VBG

PS. It's ok if you dont trust me. Not to worry.

PaulH

06-23-2003, 08:51 AM

It's a good thread but it can be better. I would like to provide an interesting story of how WSL teaching his students. There was a inquisitive foreign student who kept questioning Wong on every instructions. The dude kept asking why until one day Wong stopped explaining and asked "Do you trust me?" Likewise, if we can't have trust as a basis for a productive conversation, there is no point in going on and on.

Sincerely,

Ultimatewingchun

06-23-2003, 09:30 AM

PaulH:

There is no point in going on and on - you're right.
After awhile it becomes a big waste of time trying to explain the logic of the about sparring with gear to a dinosaur.

It doesn't matter what you can do in chi sao. Can you fight with the techniques and principles you learned in chi sao? - against all different kinds of opponents? - is the only thing that matters...IMO

Some people will never understand the answers to these questions because being able to fight with their chi sao skills is NOT their goal - which is okay - to each his own.

But my point is... then at least admit it - don't try to sell people on the idea that you ARE learning and preparing for the real thing when you're not.

The problem IMO is that many people HAVE SOLD THEMSELVES on the idea that they have prepared themselves for fighting because they do so much chi sao...and then some of the same people bounce back and forth between the position that they ARE PREPARED... and the positon that it's childish TO BE PREPARED; or "in the wrong spirit of king fu"; or "where is the fung fu" - if they are prepared.

So if they're on both sides of the issue then what's the point of discussing it any further with them?!

Ultimatewingchun

06-23-2003, 09:35 AM

By the way, Paul, I wasn't directing my remarks at you personally, I was just picking up on your remark about "going on and on".

PaulH

06-23-2003, 10:01 AM

Thank you for your courtesy remark. You have a good fighter's heart, and it shows in the way you talk. I suspect that Joy and you have more in common when swirling and clashing WC ideologies and training methodologies are more settled down at the glass's bottom.

Regards,

Ernie

06-23-2003, 10:23 AM

ultimate wing chun
But my point is... then at least admit it - don't try to sell people on the idea that you ARE learning and preparing for the real thing when you're not.
this intrest me as i think if i read a earlier post correctly you mentioned some people say you should go out and srteet fight 3 or more people or something like that.

what do you consider real, to people from the same style trying to do the same thing to each other ?

how real is that , were is the adaptability in that form of training.

or perhaops the wing chun man simulating another style attack , again not real or honest.

but if your not inviting a couple of wrestlers or bjj men or good boxers to your school and working off them , then your not allowing for true adaptability and honest lines of attack with intent,
now you might be doing this and if you are then hat's off to you.

along the same frame of thought if your not training mass attack and weapons then your not being real.

if you can maintain a cool mind during mass attack then when you face one dude it's not going to shake you at all.

from the area your from you know it's going down dirty and you know some one is going to try and break a bottle or hit you with a trash can , and they never come alone.
it's the nature of the street .
if we are going to keep it real then lets throw everything in.
pad up and work it out .
but do it with a honest goal in mind and skill development in mind , no room for ego's and no room for hot heads just good solid questions and answers , but don't be afraid to answer all questions not just a limited few.

Spark

06-23-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
PaulH:

There is no point in going on and on - you're right.
After awhile it becomes a big waste of time trying to explain the logic of the about sparring with gear to a dinosaur.

Maybe when you've trained for almost 30yrs you'll be lucky enough for someone to talk about you that way.

Phil Redmond

06-23-2003, 10:41 AM

"Phil:
1. football is a game- you can win with a 7-6 score."

Yup, and they get to those scores using, and training with real body contact, not by training in theoretical touch/flag games.

"2. Chi sau does cover all that".

Just because you touched someone 10 x's during chi sao, and he only touched you twice doesn't mean he can't kick your butt in the real world. Chi sao can't possibly cover all combat situations.

Ultimatewingchun

06-23-2003, 11:53 AM

Spark:

My background is wing chun for the last 28 years; and I actually began to learn wrestling 40 years ago (1963). So I'm qualified to know when someone is trying to sell me a bill of goods - regardless of how long they're doing chi sao.

*********

Ernie:

You make some very valid points. I've had students in my school from various martial art backgrounds...boxing, wrestling, karate, kick-boxing, tae kwondo, etc...People who brought a lot to the table when it came time to spar (with or without protective gear).

Wing chun vs. Wing chun is very limited - I agree. Practicing against multiple opponents and being unarmed vs. someone who has a knife, a stick, a bat, etc. is also something necessary that we do not infrequently. You're quite right about all of these things; which, by definition...is a lot more than doing chi sao....and more chi sao...and more chi sao..and more chi sao...AD INFINITUM.

fa_jing

06-23-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Victor- you must have a picture of Ip man with gloves- with head gear too per chance?

What about the story of Yip Man and his associates in Foshan stuffing their clothing with hay and practicing their techniques full force?

Also, why not take advantage of new training equipment?

Ernie

06-23-2003, 12:30 PM

victor
then i am dure you are getting the results you speak of , i have and continue to experience them fist hand every week.:)

when you say people don't spar because of fear you are right but i don't think it's the fear of the confrontaintion but more of the fact they have had bad experiences during sparring or it was not skill oriented just to dudes banging away.

sparring has many different faces and levels .
lets say you want to practice closeing the gap , you get a guy giving you some honest energy and you work it out over and over again , you pad up so you can come in with some power and not get busted up.
by coming in with power you develop balance under pressure and if the guy slipps out you develop adjustability and tracking .
that's just a tiny example on how you can amplify your wing chun , with pads and a little imagination plus good natured partners .
you bulid your way up to sparring , slowly and controlled , you develop the sensitivity in this some what sloppy enviroment .
then go back empty hands no pads and refine the feel.

at least that's how i was shown.
a slow controlled progression with attribute and skill development as the only goal.

victor
sometimes it's all on how it is presented , warrior type take to it right away , others have to be moved gently along the path.

KenWingJitsu

06-23-2003, 12:38 PM

This way of thinking is always a tipoff to me that those who believe this still fail to realize that chi sao (in all its various forms) is only a drill...and not as close to fighting as sparring is...and that the ultimate purpose of chi sao is to prepare one for sparring/fighting. One has to constantly WORK at translating what one learns in this drill we call chi sao to the actual language of combat - and the best way of doing that is through sparring drills (ie.- "isolated sparring") - and actual sparring itself-with protective equipment (IMO). First of all....I would just like to say that Victor has chain punched the correctness into this thread.

I would then like to say Phil Redmond's analogy of football (which is aki to Bruce Le''s analogy of dry land swimming) has just BIL jEE'D this thread into the realm of correctness.

And a big "LOL" at the circle of usual suspects and back patting.

well KWJ, i would have to say for someone who likes to rant on about reality you have absolutely no idea if you think sparring will ever be the same as facing an opponent or 4 on the street.......... I know what it's like to face an opponent (and use wing chun) on the street thank you. If sparring is done right, the pressures and unexpectedness you can and will encounter on the street can EASILY be replicated in sparring or isolated sparring, or in "Scenario sparring". It's not rocket science.
in your profile it says you have trained for years in a no. of styles, could you tell us exactly how long in each esp. wing chun and also do you mind me asking if you feel you have enough time to fully understand them all whilst spreading yourself amongst so many at once?
What you're insinuating and implying is based on a false assumption; That you cannot somehow train more than one thing at once. Thats like saying you can only learn and speak one language at once. You mind and your ability to learn is infinite. Learning more than one "style" does not somehow make your Wing Chun (or whatever style) any less. In fact, it actually enhances it.
As for your question, perhaps I never read it. I dont know what the number of years has to do with anything but here goes. I started wc for the first time about 16 years ago for about 2 years. I stopped, and began kenpo karate about 10 years ago, started again in WT about 7 years ago, started BJJ about 6 years ago. I supplement wrestling with BJJ when I train, and I spar whenever I can, Muay Thai/Kickboxing, which I began in Kenpo but have been doing more seriously for about 3 years or so. I boxed a little here and there. Oh and of course some escrima on and off.
My sifu, one of the very best and best known WT stylists, has a similar background, so I'm prety sure that "spreading oneself too thin" is NOT an issue, especially if he is as knowledgeable as he is

Alpha Dog

06-23-2003, 01:07 PM

Nobody's stopping you.

old jong

06-23-2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Chi sao teaches certain things when one is standing directly square-on in front of ones partner with the agreed upon scenario that all 4 hands/arms will be in contact almost all the time and with a forward energy done in a rolling fashion....

Is that all?...

What about all the different ways of practicing Chi sau?...Moving around...Engaging from a distance (Man sau)...Dan chi gor sau...Lop sau with all the possible lines of attack...Taking the line with attacks...Defending against the previous...Many more.....

Not to forget Chi Gerk!

06-23-2003, 01:46 PM

Ernie, thanks for sharing your thoughts in another insightful post.

Originally posted by Ernie
when you say people don't spar because of fear you are right but i don't think it's the fear of the confrontaintion but more of the fact they have had bad experiences during sparring or it was not skill oriented just to dudes banging away.

Yes, you are spot on. The "sloppiness factor" definitely colors perspectives.

Victor, you have mentioned several times that the issue is not black and white. I think this is exactly the area where we can find our agreement. I understand and can accept the contention that chi sau and sparring are part of a range. I especially respect that you have not pooh-poohed the value of chi sau in favor of sparring only.

There are other gray areas too. For example, the obvious and ongoing blurriness about constitutes sparring and what does not versus what is in the realm of chi sau and what is not. (So we are on about the very thing KWJ set us up for.) You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to, LOL.

Additionally, there is a wide and respectable range of personal "needs" and "wants" which combine with varying tolerances for the demands of sparring or fighting, by whatever definitions. Some of us are more prone to certain types of injuries than others; some of us are growing older and don't heal as well or as quickly as we used to.

Some people have ethical qualms about degrees of risk taking on their own behalf or out of concern for their partners. Sometimes even the most experienced martial artists and ex-"fighters" adopt this type of conservative philosphy, perhaps in part because of a deep appreciation of just how ultimately serious our "practices" can be.

These are just a few of examples of the many legitimate considerations. To ignore all such things in favor of one curt answer would be imprudent and shortsighted in its own way.

None of these considerations signify that one practitioner is more "serious" than another, simply that they have found a different and hopefully appropriate balance in their work at a given point in time.

Since not everyone is focused on Wing Chun as their sole mitigation strategy for personal safety, then on balance with everything, it may be less compelling for some to assume high degrees of risk in training than for others. (Of course there is always "some" risk; nothing in life is 100% risk free.) So it is my contention that with respect to virtually all considerations, there are "ranges" of reasonable choices with no clear-cut, definitive, one-size-fits-all, black and white correct answers.

It's ironic and amusing in a way that we (the general we) often quibble over an arbitrary line in the sand as if the Grand Canyon stood between us. I'll blame this one on KWJ, since he is the one who set all of us up in this thread. ;)

The chat on the subject has been fun, aside from a few personal dings that somehow sneaked in. It is rarely fruitful to try and convince someone else to change their mind or conclusions about a thing, though it is beneficial to reexamine our own reasoning and perspectives from time to time. Conversations such as these certainly enable that.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Miles Teg

06-23-2003, 03:56 PM

Good post KJ

I also think there are many gray areas.
1. Chi Sau cannot really be defined as each school takes different appraoches to it. I think this is one of the main problems in this arguement. For those of us who have practiced w.c with someone from an outside school, I think we find more often than not, that their Chi Sau is very different from our own. One school might use a lot of power while others opt for speed.

2. What the actual definition of sparring is. I still cant see how it can similulate actual fighting, with people doing their best to hurt you, when its in your own school. So maybe a better description is needed to explain how you tackle this problem. How do you spar with a junior without holding back but not overwhelm him at the same time?

Us guys for chi sau are not saying that sparring is bad. We are saying:
1. Its not for everyone
2. Its not necessarily realistic
3. Sparring should be done with people from other styles

KenWengJitsu
All respect to you, you sound like a very good fighter and a tough guy. I certainly wouldnt want to get on your bad side in a bar. You are a highly motivated fighter, who is not afraid to enter competitions or get hurt to learn. Your motivation to be the best fighter you can is great and very rare. But can you accept that other people may not want to go through the same learning process as you? There is a wide range of people who do w.c and the training methods that you use are not appropriate for everyone. Some people just love learning W.C.

EnterTheWhip

06-23-2003, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun to yuanfen
You're not above it - you're afraid of it. VBG. Then LOL. You don't want to mess with yuanfen.

EnterTheWhip

06-23-2003, 10:24 PM

If you don't understand what your chi sau is for (physically, not mentally/verbally), then you may
1) fight like you chi sau or
2)believe sparring is essential, and therefore fight like you spar.

Wing Chun at its highest levels and teachings has a myriad of drills and exercises to prepare you for a real life threatening situation, not an ego threatening one.

KenWingJitsu

06-24-2003, 01:54 AM

Kathy Jo....you know me by now. i wont have it any other way. I bil jee to the heart of the matter. No *****footing around for me. However as for saying that what constitutes sparring is a grey area, I couldnt disagree more. I have already outlined what the characteristics of "sparring" are. Sparring has (or should have) the same characteristics as an opponent would. I already stated this. People seem to ignore my definitions and instead go into a convulsive rage when they see the term "sparring". lol. Thats fine. But if it takes another members post to clarify exactl;y what i'm saying, then allow me to quote Ernie.....

sparring has many different faces and levels . lets say you want to practice closeing the gap , you get a guy giving you some honest energy and you work it out over and over again , you pad up so you can come in with some power and not get busted up.
by coming in with power you develop balance under pressure and if the guy slipps out you develop adjustability and tracking .
that's just a tiny example on how you can amplify your wing chun , with pads and a little imagination plus good natured partners .
you bulid your way up to sparring , slowly and controlled , you develop the sensitivity in this some what sloppy enviroment .
then go back empty hands no pads and refine the feel.......
a slow controlled progression with attribute and skill development as the only goal.
I coulnt have described it any better. After all this is what I meant when I said "Isolated sparring". In this case, "closing the gap" was isolated and sparred. Next you can isolate defense against takedowns. You can isolate defense against a haymaker (the most common 'street' attack unless you're a woman in which case it's a grab). Whatever yyou isolate the key is as Ernie said to use "honest energy". Meaning REALLY try to takedown/sucker punch/grab...etc etc. i.e. do it for real.

The key is to go beyond just one isolated sparring scenario though. After you defend that takedown (or if you fail to defend it,) what next? well isolate the next possibility. The possibilities are endless. Isolate a boxer's strategy and use your closing skills do defeat that intent in isolation.. ..later you can "combine isolated scenarios" (integrated sparring), and see how much wing chun you can pull off. Done like this, the results are very satisfying, eventually when fully sparring, it becomes easy to maintain your structure under pressure.

The key phrases people should be asking about are not only Isolated sparring but also "Progressive Resistance", and "Scenario Sparring". If any one honestly wants a discourse on how to train with those things in mind I'm sure we can discuss them furhter. Otherwise I can sit back amused at the visceral reactions people have to the term "sparring". So Miles Teg, I hope you can see why sparring can be for anyone. if you isolate things, it doesn't have to be crazy. No one gets hurt if trained smart, especially if it's done in isolation. Progression can be done from chi-sao to lot sao to isolated sparring to scanario sparring all using preogressive resistance.

And lot sao which is a great way to introduce the exactWC/WT chi-sao techniques into a sparring scenario... another post perhaps. :D

Frank Exchange

06-24-2003, 03:45 AM

The thing is, that some people do some or all the things you have described, and yet still lump it under the umbrella of chisao, because that is the way they have been taught.

I would not chisao with a beginner the same way as I would with a peer or my instructor.

WC/VT is a fighting system, and it does teach you different ranges.

I seriously doubt that anyone would say that the only way to do chisao is standing square in front of an opponent with 4 arms touching, aiming for light touches to the body.

Does anyone?

06-24-2003, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Kathy Jo....you know me by now. i wont have it any other way.

Indeed I do. :D:D:D

I bil jee to the heart of the matter.

Yes, I see. :D

Having grown fond of you as I have, I'll offer these few FWIW thoughts:

[list=1]
Every good preacher knows a message of he!!fire and d@mnation is not sufficient in and of itself. Hearts must first be touched; yat ji kuen or impalement are rarely the best methods for this.
Conversation consists of more than holding one's ground by digging heels into the sand. To listen and consider what others have to say is also part of the process.
Who is it that goes into "convulsive rages" on this forum??? Just double checking. ;)
To clarify, I was talking about you, not to you. :p
[/list=1]

Happy Sparring Today!
- Kathy Jo

j/k w/u! :)

yuanfen

06-24-2003, 06:55 AM

KWJ sez:People seem to ignore my definitions and instead go into a convulsive rage when they see the term "sparring".
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No convulsive rage here,rest assured. (yuanfen)
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Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun to yuanfen
You're not above it - you're afraid of it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really. Good wing chun chemistry controls both convulsions and fear, (yuanfen)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The sparring syndrome is an extension of not understanding the richness of chi sao- but that is a problem deeper and wider than
KWJ's posts or Victor's. Manyfolks mistake a beginner's rolling and then attacking as being all that there is to chi sao.

One has to stay the course in being instructed well and practising well with wing chun chi sao to understand its comprehensiveness-
all the principles of moving, turning,closing, spacing, timing, reaction, attack, defense, uses of hands,legs, various parts of the body., single, double, lop, huen..they are all there. It takes a while to learn tme. link them and make them reflexive... and then in lat sao and gor sao and san sao handling attacks of any kind from any direction.

Doesnt matter what the style of the other fella is... chi sao gives you laser like knowledge and ability to intercept, control, attack and whatever else may become necessary. And one can work off chi sao and bai jong- handling different kinds of attcks by isolating them. No need to boost glove sales.

One can for fun adapt and apply chi sao skills with gloves.Reverse is not true. But for advancing wing chun skills, gloveless chi sao is a better way.

The wing chun world is going off in diferent directions- I choose to stay the course- not out of dogmatism but the richness of continued learning by doing.

PS i do not try to convert folks who insist on sparring with gloves or do other mma. Whatever floats your boat...as is becoming a common saying.(Though it's tough to float in the desert)

Phil Redmond

06-24-2003, 07:44 AM

You can't gain fighting abilty from chi sau alone. There are people that have no clue about chi sau but can fight very well. Chi sau is a "tool" to use to gain the advantage when you have an uncooperating and resisting opponent. You have to know how to deal with an attack from the before contact stage. You need to know how to control/dissipate force issued towards from a distance where it's greater. In chi sau you already have contact. And you're probably training with another WC person that you'll probably never encounter in the street. Ernie, KWJ, Victor, and anyone else who advocates some sort sparring or at least having someone repeatedly strike you with "real" energy over and over are on the money. You need to have heart and the ability to continue to fight if you are struck. This comes from sparring. If anyone here can train fighters with out sparring you should go the pros with a program. Something that revolutionary would be worth millions. Like someone said, and I'm paraphrasing, everyone is not geared for fighting. Some will chose to see WC as a hobby. I see it as a fighting art. Isn't that what it was created for?

EnterTheWhip

06-24-2003, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Chi sau is a "tool" to use to gain the advantage when you have an uncooperating and resisting opponent. This is a very basic understanding of what chi sau is. Of course you would feel the need to spar with this level of understanding.

old jong hit the nail on the head with the following post:

The need to transform Wing Chun in something else (Does'nt mean that "something else" is no good) is to me a sign of a lack of patience or willing to work to gain the skills proper to Wing Chun.It can also be caused by the fear of not "being ready" in the advent of a possible confrontation so the person want to "Live it in advance" to reassure himself in the face of his fears.
There is also the MMA's fad.

Knifefighter

06-24-2003, 09:40 AM

and sparring is and never will be anything like a real fight.

… and also for avtual self defense- chi sao is the key.

The need to transform Wing Chun in something else ... is to me a sign of a lack of patience or willing to work to gain the skills proper to Wing Chun.

--------------------------------------------------
Is anyone suggesting that spending just ONE HOUR per week (that's one out of six )sparring with protective equipment including gloves (for advanced practitoners) WILL SOMEHOW DIMINSH ONE'S WING CHUN SKILLS ?
-------------------------------------------------
Yes, and you're the perfect example of this.

there is a big difference between worrying about getting a black eye, broken nose or
slight concusion during the playing of handsies with someone and the possibility that the
bloke you fight on the street may kick your head in whilst your knocked out on the ground, or do you believe that these things don't happen in reality because you've never seen it in a UFC.

How can regular sparring make for a good learning environment in your W.C school?

Quite a bit. But when i grew up- I put childish things away...in order to develop more wing chun skills.

This is a very basic understanding of what chi sau is. Of course you would feel the need to spar with this level of understanding.

Good God...
No wonder so many WC people can't fight.

PaulH

06-24-2003, 09:52 AM

Knifefighter,

I let you in our top guarded secret. This is how WCners train our special confidence. Ha! Ha! "Confidence, like art, never comes from having all the answers; it comes from being open to all the questions. - Diogenes Laertius"

Regards,

yuanfen

06-24-2003, 09:55 AM

Knifefighter- you can make your own snips of posts and a stew- you can come out with gibberish and feel good about it!!
Aint the net wunnerful?

yuanfen

06-24-2003, 09:57 AM

Diogenes was a wise man.

Ultimatewingchun

06-24-2003, 01:31 PM

Ernie:
Great points about a "slow controlled progression" in terms of contact sparring drills coming closer and closer to spontaneous fighting.

KWJ:
More great points about ALL the related issues to this thread, especially the importance and possibility of cross training with success, and using "geared-up" sparring to efficiently prepare for the streets - as you say - it's not rocket science.

Old Jong:
Yes there are many ways to chi sao...but still no cigar coming without REAL contact sparring - in terms of one's overall preparedness for a street encounter.

KJ:
I love tomatoes...and you're good-natured approach is indeed a welcome breath of fresh air...The very same net, however, used to say that there are gray areas should also catch the fish called "either chi sao/ or sparring"...and realizing its uselessness - throw it back into the sea - because as KWJ said: "No one gets hurt if trained smart"...so no need for people to get so bent out of shape about "geared-up" contact sparring.

EnterTheWhip:
You don't want to mess with me...Then again, with you it's always hit, run, and hide anyway...

Yuanfen:
Once again bores us with "The sparring syndrome is an extension of not understanding the richness of chi sao"....

No pal...chi sao - whether it be rolling and striking, coming from a distance, chi gerk, san sao, yadda, yadda...IS STILL JUST CHI SAO.
And although it is your magic pill - it's still a placebo - because chi sao just doesn't cover enough bases..."The richness of it"...?
Go put a few more dollars in the bank if you really really want to prepare for an encounter in todays world - otherwise don't go into town too often - because you're clearly not prepared for what you might find there these days...

Phil Redmond:
Great stuff about needing to have heart - gained from sparring against someone REALLY trying to hit or kick you (as in geared-up contact sparring).