Shaolin is too traditional !! [Archive]

The Willow Sword

11-06-2001, 06:48 PM

now that you have heard from all the kids on this subject,and they so eloquently put you in your place,,haha (yeah right). let me explain to you why shaolin kung fu is not stupid.
the low stances train your highr stances in fighting,,the resistance that is utilized in forms,,especially in low stances strengthens your ability to move fast and kick powerful in a more practical fighting stance. NO ONE that i know fights in MA BO,,,or in TUI BO(bow stance). to do so would end in your demise. i think that in training one should be able to understand why we do what we do and the usefullness in that. the styles that you mentioned,,tiger,,hunggar,,wingchun,,,these also train in low stances as well but because these styles are more Combat oriented they also have the higher stance for fighting. shaolin LOhan is the gateway to learning more devastating fighting styles such as praying mantis. so i would inplore you nin po dragon to not dismiss the lohan system as inneffective. It IS. with that being said i hope that you are able to understand why we do low stances in shaolin kung fu.
Many Respects,,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

sultanpro

11-06-2001, 11:09 PM

Wushu Chick

Stop your getting me all excited.
Talk about putting a TROLL in his place!!!
You go girl!!!!!!!!!!

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

wushu chik

11-07-2001, 12:54 AM

You call me a child and then procede to THINK you know anything about Shaolin?? Go back to Shaolin Do and tell Master The he'a a joke...that's why he ORIGINALLY CALLED IT SHAOLIN KARATE when he was back East in Kentucky. So, take your THEORIES about "shaolin" what you THINK, and shove it up your ass. And a true Kung Fu Practitioner doesn't wear a karate belt, or a GI!!

There's for CHILDISH!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

joedoe

11-07-2001, 02:20 AM

I admire your spirit, but TWS isn't a bad guy. You may not agree with what he trains, but he often has good things to say. I don't think that anything he said was wrong.

Anyway, I think you should cut him some slack.

Keep hammering the trolls though :)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

The Willow Sword

11-07-2001, 02:38 AM

its weird that YOU would take a personal offense to my comments( i dont think that i ever mentioned YOU in my comments to Nin Po Dragon.)
So Angry,,,Why? Based on what your reply to ME was,,,do you think that i am wrong in what i say?
i have this vision of you watching a tournament and a guy in kung fu pants goes out to do a form and you are watching,,,you think that it is the most amazing thing that you have ever seen: you get a little wet because the guy is handsome and presents himself very well,,you get up the nerve to go talk to him and ask him "what do you study?" and he says "Shaolin-Do" You proceed to kick him in the balls and storm off ranting and raving in a neurotic PMS'ed out temper tantrum about how its all going to hell in a handbasket.
Wushu Chick: you dont know me :cool:
Many Respects,,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

wushu chik

11-07-2001, 04:00 AM

"i have this vision of you watching a tournament and a guy in kung fu pants goes out to do a form and you are watching,,,you think that it is the most amazing thing that you have ever seen: you get a little wet because the guy is handsome and presents himself very well,,you get up the nerve to go talk to him and ask him "what do you study?" and he says "Shaolin-Do" You proceed to kick him in the balls and storm off ranting and raving in a neurotic PMS'ed out temper tantrum about how its all going to hell in a handbasket."

Yeah, and I bet that little vision of yours got you all hot and bothered didn't it?

FIRST OFF~ A form from a Shaolin Do practitioner would do NOTHING for me but make me want to gag. It's embarassing for your style to even put SHAOLIN in it's name, for the simple fact that WE SHAOLIN PRACTITIONERS don't wear gi's or karate belts. And that's why most Shaolin Do practitioners don't compete. In the USAWKF, NASKA or the NBL/SKIL I have never seen one of your "kung fu" guys compete.

SECOND OFF~ Where in the history of the Fukien Temple did Shaolin Do come from? I would really like to know!

THIRD OFF~ "with that being said i hope that you are able to understand why we do low stances in shaolin kung fu." You saying you do Shaolin Kung Fu is a derogitory remark, because Shaolin Do is nothing but GLORIFIED KARATE!!!! You had better do more research on before you can come on and say that u DO ANY SORT OF KUNG FU.

I don't know you, you are right..but you have no opinion in my book....I really am NOT trying to be a B!tch, but come on now....give me a break.

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Piccolo Junior

11-07-2001, 04:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Wushu Chik:
because Shaolin Do is nothing but GLORIFIED KARATE!!!!
[/quote]

Don't insult Karate like that. If you've ever seen an Okinawan Karate stylist, you would notice that what they do is esentially a Japanese version of Sourthern Kung Fu.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

wushu chik

11-07-2001, 04:21 AM

SORRY PICCOLO!!

The Willow Sword

11-07-2001, 05:02 AM

Looks like you have a thing against SD. thats okay, most people do in this forum. i will say that i do not like the idea of wearing Karate uniforms at a CMA school,,BUT,,,i cannot change that nor can i change history. i have been in martial arts long enough to know when someone has something decent to say and when someone is spouting off and letting thier PMS get to them. Have your emotions, do not let them have you. Kung-fu is NOT a UNIFORM wushu chik. kung fu is not a stylized name or organization with a history. KUNG-FU is HARD WORK,,and DEDICATION WITHOUT ego getting in the way to bettering yourself emotionally spiritually and physically. naturally the physical and outward appearance starts first,,then as the years go by that all becomes moot and useless. each person does his/her best according to his/her own abilities. im sorry if SD offends you. Im sure SD doesnot mean to offend you or your organization, wushu chik. if you would like further communication(and i would) you can e-mail me @ whirlwindshield@aol.com sometimes we prejudge too harshly with out really getting to know someone or something. but i will say that yout rantings are hardly becoming,,i dont even know your organization,,and if i did i would not exhibit the behavior that you have been on this subject,,,besides,,SD is NOT the original subject here,,,,by your rantings you have turned the subject into your own personal crusade against SD and nin po dragon is probably laughing his ass off at the banter here and is now convinced that Shaolin kung fu is worthless due to the bickering between shaolin school. well any way hope we can further communicate(in a proper manner befitting true martial artists)
Many respects,Willow Sowrd

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

wushu chik

11-07-2001, 05:46 AM

We know Nin Po Dragon doesn't know what he is talking about. But, What I am talking about is the fact that you as a SD stylist don't have any room to talk. That's what I am saying. And your feminist PMS B*LL is retarted. It's sexist, and stupid, but I wouldn't expect anything more from you!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Piccolo Junior

11-07-2001, 05:48 AM

But Shaolin-do is fake ass sh!t.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

Radhnoti

11-07-2001, 06:00 AM

Wushu Chik, I think several CRITICS of Shaolin-do have stepped forward to say that many styles that were forced to migrate from China "hid" their style by donning gis. Fu-Pow comes to mind right off...
I imagine that you (and...um...Junior) have never seen someone proficient in shaolin-do doing a form. As most do, you're probably spouting off what you've heard from others or online. If I've misjudged you...well...I haven't.

wushu chik

11-07-2001, 06:12 AM

I have seen Shaolin Do forms, and many people I have seen do their forms, had been studying a long time. I don't care what others have said on line...my opinion of Shaolin Do is from what I know of it, and it's not a CMA...especially when you know GM The's past history. So, misjudge me if you want...doesn't mean anything to me. Personally I don't think YOU know what you are talking about, and intelligence is lacking in your department!!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

HuangKaiVun

11-07-2001, 06:27 AM

CMA, JMA, fakeMA, what does it matter?

Good kung fu is GOOD KUNG FU regardless of source or alteration.

Kung fu is not a HISTORY CONTEST.

TWS, don't worry about wushuchik or reemul hating your style.

You know what works for you, and that's enough. Anybody who disagrees can face you in combat - if they dare.

Brad

11-07-2001, 06:41 AM

Jeeeeezzzz, chill out people!

TWS,
That PMS remark was pretty dumb. Try taking the high road.

wushuchik,
No matter what you think of Shaolin-Do, it's kind of cheap bashing people without showing that what you do is any better. That's why I've left them alone lately, until I can get vids up of myself on the net :D I don't remember you telling us anything about yourself or your experiences with Shaolin-Do. If you're going to talk badly about them, say specifcally what's "fake" about them. I mean VERY specific. Like exact moves and principles. Just saying "it doesn't look the same" doesn't cut it(which, I admit, is exactly what I first did). Of course the best way to show an arts "realness/fakeness" would be public challenge matches, but I don't think that's legal anymore :(

Hey Rad,

You still interested in those vids? I've got some more(Chen Xiaowang & other members of the Chen family)

Serpent

11-07-2001, 07:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

I really am NOT trying to be a B!tch, but come on now....give me a break.

WushuChik

[/quote]

****! I'd hate to see you try!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You cannot defeat the Bronze Girls of Shaolin!

wushu chik

11-07-2001, 07:29 AM

I am not talking about the "essence" of kung fu. I am talking about the fact that Shaolin Do is a joke. Train what you want, whatever...but don't sit here and tell me that Shaolin Do is traditional, forms are the same, etc. Especially when your GM first started it as Shaolin Karate. Come on people....you have to have the wool pulled over your eyes pretty much about that one. If it works for you GREAT....but don't EVEN sit there and tell me that you study SHAOLIN and put me in the same ******* catagory as you. That's just degrading.

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

wushu chik

11-07-2001, 07:31 AM

That's mellow...you should see me on a BAD DAY!! ;)

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

shaolin white crane

11-07-2001, 09:04 AM

What happened while I was gone

Guys I think martial arts are alive there are constantly changing and transforming that way we grow with them they are not carve in stone they enrich every time we find a new application an even sometimes there occurs a space in time were you think of a better form of employing the same movements. That’s why the martial way is so in contact with that of the spiritual warrior, so what if some one decide to take something he learn and mixed whit another thing a create Shaolin-Do I for myself have learn shaolin kung fu and that goes beyond a name or a uniform It goes back a couple of centuries to the great teachers that gave us the treasure of there experience and ability. So to all I said practice hard, practice until you can stand because of your sore legs because then you are a true practitioner in the way to true mastership, and to ninpo dragon I say to practice hard and to respect other even if they aren’t as good as you is to be a true student.

Amitoufo

Luis Fernando Espinosa Ceja

A man told a tree to speak to him about God and the tree cover himself in flowers

Radhnoti

11-07-2001, 04:41 PM

Wushu Chik, I don't think anyone said the forms are the same.
...say...you're not reemul pranking around are you?!? :o :D

sultanpro

11-07-2001, 06:15 PM

An MA girl with attitude, i love it!!!! :D

WS- Getting wet, PMS, come on bro, no need for that!!

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

Shaolin36

11-07-2001, 06:58 PM

yeah!!!!!!!!
Get em wushu Chick

Piccolo Junior

11-07-2001, 07:42 PM

Why have so many people become Shaolin-do supporters, is Sin The giving you head? Everybody knows that Shaolin-do is as fake as Juko-kai, Ashida Kim, or Britney's tits. The fact that they claim to teach every Tai Chi style, Liu Ho Pa Fa, and god knows what else, without ANY CREDENTIALS whatsoever is proof enough for me to believe they are fake.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

The Willow Sword

11-07-2001, 08:40 PM

sexist? whats wrong with being sexy?

"NO need for the PMS comments" The problem today,MEN, is that we allow ourselves to be led by the shorthairs and testicles by controlling and hateful women. the chauvanists and the feminists should get together and have a MASSIVE orgy. then maybe all those pent up frustrations between them will be released and they can finally get with REALITY and start living a more unified way.
I will be brutally honest here for a moment Wushu Chik. whether or not you think SD is a joke is of no relavence to me. what does matter to me that a woman in CMA has the lack of discipline to engage in a polite and diplomatic discussion about a subject regarding CMA or MA in general,, you are obviously young and do not have control yet over your anger. and most of the YOUTH here who trash anything that does not resemble what they do also tells me that CMA lacks the discipline that JMA has. If SD has incorporated JMA principles in its teaching and training,SO BE IT. before i started CMA i had a background in JMA,,and thankfully i learned the discipline that they seem to exhibit and focus on in training.
in my humble opinion, when you try to walk the circle with out first learning to walk the straight and narrow line, you become erratic and you have no control over your body your mind and your spirit. of course this is an opinion and will not be shared at all by some. but that has been my experience of over 15 yrs in this relm, i dont claim mastery and i dont even claim to know everything,,but i DO KNOW what i KNOW and that is enough for me.
Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

The Willow Sword

11-07-2001, 11:10 PM

wushu chik ,,try MIDOL it REALLY WORKS!

Many Respects, Willow Sword
:p

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

dre_doggX

11-07-2001, 11:51 PM

I dont know why Wushu Chik is picking on you.

Glad its not me.

but anyway for real cause I dont know, what is Shaolin Do's relation to Kungfu that puts it apart from the other martial arts that evoled from Kungfu like Jujutsu and karate.

thanks
Wushu Chik.lol(I not even going to say anything)LOL LOL :rolleyes:
yours

Andre Lashly :confused: :confused:

Ming the Merciless

11-08-2001, 12:10 AM

Then again maybe Wushu Chik just thinks shaolin-do sucks........

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 12:41 AM

its a matter of historical background and appearance that gets everyone in a tizzy. Also there are some questions that folks here bring up about what grandmaster Sin knows. it goes on and on and on ,,and becomes an endless debate that makes for a lot of anger and ego venting(as you have read from Wushu chik, amongst others).
Any way this school has been around since the 60's when it was called Shaolin-karate in order to attract the people who only knew of Karate at the time,,and also as a matter of history when SD was being perpetuated in indonesia a japanese look and some styling had to be adopted in order to sway japanese tyranny at the time(no offense to the japanese) anyway its been that way ever since and even though i feel we should let the past be the past grandmaster sin has kept the Karate appearance and
has become quite successful buisiness wise with it. appearance does not matter to me as it is secondary to the art itself but ill say this that what we do is Shaolin kungfu not shaolin wushu.(no offense to wushu) anyway thats all,,,the whole point of this whole thing is that i offered my thoughts to Nin Po Dragon about his Query and Wushu Chik jumps in and PMS's all over me.

MAny Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

wushu chik

11-08-2001, 12:44 AM

With your obsession on Sex, you should really move to Nevada...then you would probably find someone DESPERATE enough to lay your ass!!

You say I am "undisciplined" and such. I'm not. I choose to speak my mind. It's my God given right to do so, feminist speaking or not. If I have something to say I WILL SAY IT. If you have a problem with that...THAN DON'T READ THE FORUM. You can sit here and say all your stupid BULL about how SD comes from the Fukien Temple, your is traditional, blah blah blah blah, but I can't voince my opinion? WRONG.

You are the one that started all this by saying that we are a bunch of kids. You don't know ME. You don't know how old I am, how long I have been studying, ANYTHING. So don't prejudge me because you are a shovinistic *******. I wouldn't have said ANYTHING if you hadn't started in with your bull****. Don't judge others unless you are prepared to be judged!! SUCKS HUH!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

generic22

11-08-2001, 12:45 AM

Can someone explain to me why it matters whether shaolin-do is or isn't something, I mean in the big picture. I have never seen it or know nothing about it...but who cares? I mean, it isn't like we all live in a country where every martial art is represented in every town and we can choose and pick what we study. Isn't it just cool that there are people like you, like me, that like the idea of training and trying to better themselves? I mean, this reminds me of the old (and I do mean old) arguement between people who ski and people who snowbaord. Isn't it just a differnt way to get down the same mountain? It's hard enough to find people that can understand how I feel about kung fu in my everyday life...then I come to a place like this, a community of people that share the same interest and you guys are name calling? They should create a thread called ****ing contests for you. :rolleyes:

wushu chik

11-08-2001, 12:50 AM

Wushu- Martial Arts

Kung Fu- something accomplished thru hard work, time and effort.

Look it up~ it's in the INDEX of your systems student manual.

And AGAIN...the reason you got "jumped on" is because you said we were children....and AGAIN...don't judge unless you are prepared to BE judged.

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 01:03 AM

if i wanted to Really judge you, I would. instead of enlightening Nin Po Dragon ,,You chose to be a little child and "speak your mind". its an OPINION not a JUDGEMENT,,,oh and thats not how you spell "shovinistic" :rolleyes: its spelled "chauvinistic" :D if YOU are going to make these little "im miss ***** of the wushu world standing up for whats right in my world" then learn to spell correctly,,i mean really Wushu Chik you are coming off as a total kid here.
and if by some stretch of the imagination you are past 30 then act your age,,hasnt "WUSHU" taught you anything other than to flap your mouth?

Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

Silumkid

11-08-2001, 01:03 AM

No, no, no, Wushu Chik....don't you realize that because the contemporary folks use the word "wushu" it means 'gymnastics'? Oh, I'm sorry...I accidentally left my sarcasm button on.

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 01:05 AM

im in chat so come on in and lets chat

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 01:09 AM

chatroom dont work i guess

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

Piccolo Junior

11-08-2001, 01:21 AM

Shaolin-do isn't modern or traditional, it is mother****ing fake!

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

Ming the Merciless

11-08-2001, 01:29 AM

I'd have to agree with P Junior.

wushu chik

11-08-2001, 01:40 AM

The only reason you say I am being a "kid" is because you don't want to face the fact that your style is a god ****ed joke. Get over it, face the fact, and get on with life... and as for misspelling a word....I know how to spell one really good!! LOSER!!!!!!!!

Thanks Silumkid!! I love ya...

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Ming the Merciless

11-08-2001, 01:49 AM

Shaolin-do (http://www.shaolinwestknox.com/)

go to the forms demonstration page. 'Nuff said.

Silumkid

11-08-2001, 01:51 AM

:D I got nothin' but love for ya, baby!

And by the way, since spelling seems to have become an issue here, "buisness" is not the correct spelling of "business". I just don't like watching pots call kettles black when I can do something about it.

Another "by the way" Wushu Chik, I can't remember the name of the thread unfortunately, but there is a very interesting one on here that suggests that the Southern Shaolin temple never actually existed. Lots of good research posted to support it, too.

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

HuangKaiVun

11-08-2001, 02:07 AM

Wushuchik, you are a SIFU???

You harbor such hatred against a fellow martial artist for having a different style from you? WHAT are you teaching your students?

For your information, there are many so-called "Shaolin" styles that may have had nothing to do with the temple. YOURS very well might be one of them.

Talk is cheap, action is final. Since you think Shaolin-Do is such a "god**** joke", why don't you challenge the style and put its practitioners out of their misery?

You imply that your style is vastly superior to TWS's and Sin The's. That means that you ought to earn an easy victory in a challenge match. You too, Ming and Piccolo.

Good kung fu is good kung fu regardless of its origin. Or did your sifu teach you otherwise?

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 02:12 AM

the only joke that i see here is more, so called ,"martial artists" exhibiting thier ability
to banter rant and rave wasting thier energy on a subject that has been repeatedly burned into the ground with nothing accomplished. Wushu Chik YOU ARE A YOUNG GIRL. not that there is anything wrong with that,,but you are exhibiting the characteristics of an immature prissy little cooze. you live in oregon huh? well then i suggest that you go into those beautiful forests there,that i have been in, and find yourself or at least contemplate on why it is you feel the need to let your emotions have you. with all that is going on in the world right now YOU are channeling this hatred for me(when you dont even know me)and the school that i have proudly been with for years. i pity you at this point,,for why,,when there have been sooo many advances in medicines to help with the severe cramping that goes on during your cycle that you feel the need not to take any and make others to suffer for it? i mean really girlfriend you are quite the selfish little toad arent you? dont get me wrong i dont hate you and i dont even dislike you,,but i do feel that a trip to the local walgreens is in order. Bayer Arthritis formula works good,,oh and Midol, i mentioned that earlier, works well. but if you feel that those do not work for you then make an appointment to see your doctor and have her prescribe you something a little stronger. good luck to you and i hope you continue your training and i do pray for your well being wushu chik,,really i do despite my sarcasm,,,believe me its a lot batter than if i let my emotions have me,,,boy!! whew the things i could say. well anyway take care and many blessings to you and your family and school.
Many respects,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

Ming the Merciless

11-08-2001, 02:29 AM

why don't you just shut up, stupid.

HuangKaiVun

11-08-2001, 03:51 AM

Nah.

You're so tough, you think ShaolinDo sucks. Prove it in combat then.

Challenge the style, beat them down, prove to us that you're so right and I'm so stupid - THEN I'll shut up.

TWS, don't stoop to the level of your opposition with the namecalling. It's unbecoming of a true kung fu man like you.

You have already accepted a challenge - and WON. Win THIS fight by showing us how to remain ABOVE such useless flaming.

Piccolo Junior

11-08-2001, 03:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by HuangKaiVun:
TWS, don't stoop to the level of your opposition with the namecalling. It's unbecoming of a true kung fu man like you.
[/quote]

He is not a true Kung Fu man, Shaolin-do isn't true Kung Fu.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 03:58 AM

shut up man! You are disturbin' my sweet talk with Wushu Chik.
:D
Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

HuangKaiVun

11-08-2001, 04:41 AM

Ah, we have yet ANOTHER wannabe Internet tough guy!

Piccolo Junior, let's see how a "true" kung fu man like YOU does against an untrue kung fu man like TWS.

reemul has already fallen to TWS, for your information. YOU are next.

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 04:45 AM

no Reemul has not fallen to me. patience grasshopper. ;)

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

Piccolo Junior

11-08-2001, 04:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by HuangKaiVun:
Ah, we have yet ANOTHER wannabe Internet tough guy!

Piccolo Junior, let's see how a "true" kung fu man like YOU does against an untrue kung fu man like TWS.

reemul has already fallen to TWS, for your information. YOU are next.[/quote]

I'm not a Kung Fu man, I'm a Kickboxing man.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

HuangKaiVun

11-08-2001, 06:45 AM

So despite your never studying kung fu, you are the authority who can tell the difference between what "fake" and "real" kung fu is.

TWS, reemul hasn't responded yet, has he?

That's what I meant by "fallen".

Radhnoti

11-08-2001, 09:00 AM

TWS has a unique style, it's a bit "in your face" at times...and I imagine he'd be a blast to hang out with. But most who've posted on this board have come to respect the fact that he's willing to back up what he says. P Junior, who admitted to being a kickboxer, has probably never seen ANY shaolin practicioner...and is simply repeating the mantra that has given him a place in so many other forums. This <insert controversial minority> sucks. Guaranteed approval from the few folks who might actually have had reason (or felt they had reason) to dislike the minority, plus all the folks like them willing to judge with no personal knowledge.
Ming and Silumkid....well...they just seem to be trying to pick up a chick...er..Chik. :)
Wushu Chik, you've not presented anything to back up your position. I truly doubt you have anything new to add to the already LENGTHLY debate about SD. You want to see some REAL time wasted (Yes, my time...I'm such a glutton for punishment)? Do a search (top of the page) on shaolin-do...or just click on my profile and start reading the old posts. You have to admit that from your first to last post in this thread you've seemed angry...with the notable exception of "love" to Silumkid. I suspect this is the kernal for Willow's somewhat...um...personal comments. ;)
In the end, in my opinion, we're all just people interested in bettering ourselves. And we have this great common interest that drags us all here to post our opinions, and read and learn what others know. At it's best, this forum is a wonderful vehicle to exchange ideas. At it's worst it's name calling and pointless expressions of negativity. Why not take the high road and make your point with logic and facts? It's the high hard road, but I guarantee you'll garner more respect that way.

Ming the Merciless

11-08-2001, 09:23 AM

I was trying to see if I could p i s s anyone off, didn't really work all that well (**** it, Jim). Oh well, back to the old drawing board.

shaolin-do isn't for me, but to each their own.

Hey Huang, I still think you are stupid.

[This message was edited by Ming the Merciless on 11-08-01 at 11:37 PM.]

wushu chik

11-08-2001, 09:29 AM

I am in NO way angry. Why should I be? I don't care about Willow Sword or what juvenile sexist remarks he has to make. It has NO BEARING on me at all. But, if I were him I would be angry. He's the one paying for classes of a bull style. Now, THAT would **** ME OFF!! But, oh well, it's his life. I know about Shaolin Do, and I know it's based on lies, and unfactual myths. And, call me what you want, like I have never heard it before. You all say B!TCH like it's a bad thing!! :rolleyes: ANYWAYS...just one more thing!! Willow, if the reason GM The started calling his stuff Shaolin Karate so people would start coming to his school, doesn't that mean he's just out for money, and marketing his system all wrong. What's wrong with NOT LYING about something?? Oh, I bet you don't know that answer, since you have been LIED to about everything else by him and his "groupies".

Have a nice day!!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Starchaser107

11-08-2001, 11:58 AM

I always thought that it was the practicioner and his/her journey and not the art form, afterall martial arts is martial arts , and it all started from somewhere. Ask yourself why does geograaphical location matter with regards to a martial arts validity. Man made all martial arts , they are all flawed , it is up to you to master yourself.

"everything is everything"

HuangKaiVun

11-08-2001, 04:05 PM

For a sifu, you flame too much and do too little, wushuchik.

Put your money where your mouth is and defeat Shaolin-Do in open combat if their style is such "bull" as you claim it to be.

I already know from your posts that you'll never do such a thing because you don't have the guts nor skill to face these guys in combat. That is the correct response - I myself would NEVER fight these guys because they know how to HURT PEOPLE.

I would expect such style slamming from a redneck juvenile nonkungfuperson who wants to DIE like Ralek, but from a SIFU? Of "Northern Shaolin", one of the most respected styles in kung fu, no less!!!

Thus far, this "bull" style is kicking your butt, wushuchik. TWS has offered you to meet him in combat, and now you're running away despite your "Northern Shaolin". SD is victorious yet again.

Next time, watch your mouth because those that you flame will come back to haunt you.

Shaolindynasty

11-08-2001, 05:39 PM

It seems like everytime Willow Sword gets back on here arguemnets about Shaolin Do pop up. Good to have you Back Willow, you keep things interesting. Now for my 2 cents. I think somthing is wrong with Shaolin Do to BUT nobody really has any proof other than their history sucks and look at the way they move. Keeping this in mind I can't really say anything negitive about them cause that is all opinon based stuff. In CMA everyones history is different, if that was the measure of a real school we all would be screwed. Their movements are strange to me but so are some of the famous "sifus" out there so that won't work. So far the only thing that can really be used against them is their Tai chi, I think I remember sombody saying that their Tai Chi was a modern comp form, if that is true then it can't be from the Fujian temple and they lied about that. Trust me guys there are alot worse out there right under your noses. GM Sin may be a lier but at least he is a bad one if that's true.

www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 05:46 PM

hold on now Huang,,i never challenged wushu chik.

Wushu Chik: what country do you think we live in?
this is America sweetie and we are ALL here to make money to live and provide for our families and ourselves. Martial arts is what i would choose and have chosen to live that American dream.
Huang: is it me or do i detect a bit of sarcasm and patronizing on your part with regards to me?

Wushu chik: if i were to challenge you honey pie it would be a match of nude mud wrestling.
we could help each other to channel the anger we BOTH have through some constructive physical activities :D
Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

generic22

11-08-2001, 05:55 PM

You guys are funny. My favorite part is where you argue who is more of a "kid", and I am assuming, you are pointing to immaturity. Why does anyone get interested in MA at all? I really hope it isn't to one day defend your school's honor and reputation, if that's the case, my god, you really have been watching too many shaw bros. movies. Please, someone tell me, and I asked earlier, in the grand scheme of things, if shaolin-do isn't what you would like it to be, or calls itself something you feel is incorrect, who cares? I mean, how does it effect your life? If for some reason you don't have a job, a life, friends, financial obligations, family, then by all means take up the great casue of proving shaolin do a sham, I am sure there are about 20-30 people on this planet that would really care. And if you do, what do you want people like TWS to do about it? I don't know him, but I don't think he sits on the board of the convince-the-world-SD-is-real commission. I don't know SD from a hole in the ground, but it's just so boring when people rag on others just for the sake of ragging. Like, wow, we get it, you're the greatest, we heard you, SD is fake.

If it matters I have studied Northern Shaolin and Shaolin from one of the fake monks. See, I said "fake" so now you don't have to spend 3 days yelling at *me* that *they* are fake.

Crimson Phoenix

11-08-2001, 06:18 PM

OK...here is a little question that someone will take as a flame-attempt I'm sure, but it's not my goal...as a disclaimer, I have to say that I know almost nothing of shaolin-do since we don't have it in France, and I have no prejudice towards it even if the name makes me uncomfortable,and the gi-wearing thing too (disgression: yah, why a Gi? to hide your art in other countries? Most pictures of old school chinese masters showed them practicing in everyday clothing, no monk attire, no silk uniform, just everyday clothing...that's how we practice bagua by the way, any pants will do as long as you can kick and twist, any top will do as long as you're warm and free to move...gong fu never neededany uniform, so why hiding it by chosing a different uniform instead of just hanging with your everyday clothing?? Just a thought, by no mean an attack)...OK, here's the point of my intervention: I'm just puzzled with this "you can prove it's gong fu only if you win" style of justification...imagine an okinawan karate guy swearing me he practices gong fu...OK, his art might be heavily gong fu-influenced, but all CMA will agree it is not gong fu...imagine we fight and he slaps the crap out of me and my "orthodox" gong fu...will that really be a proof that he's right and his art is gong fu?? I'm sorry, but you don't have to win a fight to know what gong fu is...I totally agree however that you cannot make any judgement about one's gong fu until yourself haven't reached a very high level...how can I judge the quality of a wine without numerous tastings and practice??
Al of this to say if shaolin-do isn't gong fu and TWS kicks all our asses it still won't make shaolin-do gong fu...however, it will make TWS a real badass and integral fighter.
Which makes me think that: maybe all the people hating shaolin-do do so not because it's a bad art per se, but because shaolin-do insists on linking it to CMA, which is unnacceptable for them...
I myself can't stand modern PRC shi@t, even if it's chinese, heavily gong fu flavored, it is not true TCMA and that's why it ****es me off to see it advertized as gong fu...
Just some thoughts, I hope no one takes any offense

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 06:52 PM

First off i cannot believe(well actually i can)that this thread became another SD one. All of you can Thank Wushu Chik for that(go back and reread who started this,,wasnt me) crimson Phoenix,,, Martial arts in france is VERY interesting to me,,,what is it that you study over there and if you have been here to the USA what comparisons can you make between the the martial arts here as opposed to there?
MAny Respects Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

HuangKaiVun

11-08-2001, 08:37 PM

No patronizing on my part toward you TWS. Only respect.

You offered to meet her. Given the belligerent way that she's acted toward you, that's basically a "challenge" despite your more peaceful intentions.

I am sick and tired of people ragging on other styles, saying that they're crap, and then RUNNING when they're forced to back up their talk with the WALK.

You walk the walk, TWS. I wouldn't cross you.

Shaolindynasty

11-08-2001, 09:02 PM

"I am sick and tired of people ragging on other styles, saying that they're crap, and then RUNNING when they're forced to back up their talk with the WALK."

Well I am sick and tired of BJJ posts but they ain't goin away. Truth is when people make claims they should be able to stick up for it and argue it. If you look at my site where it talks about our history and stuff, say sombody said there is no "way that happened cause of this". They could be right I wasn't there for some of that stuff and the only thing I can concretly confirm is the stuff I was there for. At the same time it will not invalidate my practice(like the facts don't invalidate Shaolin Do's practice) I know what my system is capable of and I like to train in it, that is what is important. Alot of people out there flameing Shaolin Do probally have historical differences in their line, so what does it matter? With that said I would like to ask Willow Sword a question with out judging his system.

I am curious about the Gi thing. Not only because of the points above but why would JMA be allowed but not CMA in the country they were in? Sorry to make you repeat anything but which country was that? Also do you feel that Sin The has expanded his curriculum greatly since he came to america or does he say all those sets came from Fujian?

If you don't want people flaming you we could disscuss this by email. I am just curious and would like to disscuss this, not argue.

www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Ming the Merciless

11-08-2001, 09:36 PM

Hey Huang,
You can tell all that about people just from what they on post on an internet forum? hahaha.

refer back to my previous comments.

Piccolo Junior

11-08-2001, 10:29 PM

****, a couple months back, everybody knew Shaolin-do was fake, where the **** did they go?

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

wushu chik

11-08-2001, 10:59 PM

They still all know that SD's , but everyone's just being a coward now. I wasn't the one that started it...I said, DO NOT JUDGE UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO BE JUDGED. That's what Willow did, and this is what he got...end of story, end of file... You don't disrespect me without getting disrespected back....ESPECIALLY WHEN I WASN'T TALKING TO HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Ming the Merciless

11-08-2001, 11:10 PM

I'm all about 10,000 bees and golden centipede, ok.

If someone wants to study something that has been so obviously sold as something it is NOT, that is their business. No point arguing about it.

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 11:17 PM

Go back to the first page of this thread and look at who started this,,,,You took personal offense to my "kid" comment and proceeded to bring up the SD thing to counteract my "offense to you" you know im sorry wushu chik i guess to call you a child would be an insult to CHILDREN! You allowed ME,,Little ole ME to get to you and i HAVE in a big way. if you are that transparent dear then i think you would be no problem for me in a challenge match that some here have suggested that you Issue to defeat us Sd Guys. you wanna be equal with the Boys honey then you take the punches and kicks like the boys as well. you will be in for a real suprise when reality smacks that face of yours and "BONGGGGGG!" the bell gets rung.
dont get me wrong dear i am far from angry about this,in fact i find it quite funny that you continue this instaed of retaining what little integrity you have left here,,,but keep on keepin on,,,i love tennis and you serve a mean ball but i can hit it back just as hard.

Many Respects,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

firepalm

11-08-2001, 11:36 PM

The problem a lot of people have (ie; like Wushu chik), that have some decent amount of knowledge of proper CMA, is that they are disturbed (like myself) when they see something that is obviously not authentic (as is the DEFINITE case with Shaolin Do). There was a similar teacher here in Canada that called his art Chien Lung KF, he listed it as his own creation, calling on his background on jujitsu, karate, yoga & dance to create this new CMA. His mechanics were a joke, the group was borderline new age hippie cult crap. The unfortunate thing is people who don't know any better that start out with the likes of Shaolin Do, Chien Lung, Simon's, Villari, etc... think that this represents real CMA. Which is simply wrong... if the likes of Sin The wants to make up his own crap, fine but if he's going to tag Shaolin or Kung Fu or Wushu or whatever he's got to expect some backlash from those that actually do authentic CMA.

And yes I have seen enough of Shaolin Do, to be able to compare it to what I have witnessed & trained in North America & China/Hong Kong. Long & short Shaolin Do is McDojo / McKwoon crap for middle America white folk. :p :p :p

The Willow Sword

11-08-2001, 11:43 PM

Can We REALLY trust the CANADIANS? it isnt even a REAL country anyway. :p How ABOOT that?

Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

firepalm

11-08-2001, 11:51 PM

hahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahha.... :D
I had almost a good laugh about that as I do about Gran Pupah Sin The :eek:

Radhnoti

11-09-2001, 12:01 AM

Hey Shaolindynasy, I think your question was missed...and though I have covered it before (what haven't I covered...I'm such a loudmouth), it's worth repeating.
Our system is 3 grandmasters deep. The second grandmaster was forced to migrate to Indonesia. Apparently (perhaps Monkeyslap Too will back me on this, as he's mentioned this before as well), the great influx of Chinese into Indonesia at this time made them a persecuted minority. They (The Indonesians) had no problem with the Japanese immigrants, just the Chinese. To avoid persecution Grandmaster Ie Japanamized (new word, like it? :D ) the system. Meaning he stuck -do on the end, added gis, added belts, added a few Japanese weapons (just in the lowest belts), started calling his kwoon a dojo, and sifu became sensei. I'm probably forgetting a few things, but regardless, the things he changed only affected the outward appearance of the system. Anyone walking by might see that it ends in -do, the new students are using nunchaku and sai and referring to the teacher as "sensei". No need to break his window...he's not Chinese.
Hope that helps...and not just as ammunition to hit shaolin-do with later either! :D

Crimson Phoenix

11-09-2001, 12:51 AM

This is dubious...sorry, it is...as I said earlier, why didn't they just practice in everyday clothing, or behind closed doors??
What's that "Chinese and Indonesian" crap?? Chinese were persecuted because they were a minority and not the Japanese?? Man, Chinese are everywhere in Asia, Japanese on the contrary are always a minority everywhere except in Japan! If you knew a little bit of Chinese and Indonesians, you would know that chinese immigration started very early there and wasn't seen as a bad thing...some chinese mixed with the indonesians and were called "Peranakan", just like in Malaysia, becoming part of the country, growing a distinct culture that mixed their chinese heritage with the culture of their adopted country...
So the guy basically japanized everything, except the Shaolin part...hmmmmm...wasn't this obviously recognizable as typically Chinese?? Why not calling it "Shorinji-do" or "Shorin-do" then and japanize everything???
Another thing bugs me big time: Kuntao...kuntao are CMAs from southern China practiced in malaysia and indonesia where "quan fa" eventually became kuntao...most kuntaos were kept secret and only taught among Chinese, but some others opened to the local martial art, Pencak Silat, blending in techniques from it...Chinese techniques were not totally unknown to Indonesians.
Do you really think the Indonesians are so dumb that all it takes is a Gi and a Japanese names and waazzzzzaaaaaappppp they can't see the stuff is Chinese? I'm sorry, but if you go TKD at me in a suit or a fireman costume or thai boxer shorts I'll still see it's TKD...And how come lots of CMA here say SD doesn't feel like gong fu? Not one or two but many more...I do not judge since I haven't seen it move, but hell, when I hear all these CMAs here saying it is not gong fu, it rings a serious bell in my head...
I have never seen Shaolin do in motion, but these allegations and these "800 forms" stuffs makes me very cautious. These stories never make you try looking further?
TWS, you were asking me about my practice...I started baguazhang one year ago, and along I have been training "Shaolin" arts for 4 years...why the brackets?? Because I'm really aware the style of longfist (Nanjing central kuoshu) I practice is a composite style made by several trad. masters from their respective styles...we call it Shaolin longfist but we know it isn't straight from Shaolin and it is a recent mix of more ancient types of longfists...same for the white crane I practice, which is often called Shaolin White Crane, yet we know that this linkage to Shaolin may as well be kind of forced, back in the days when the female creator founded she might have tried to link it by any mean to Shaolin, even if it implied losing a little bit of facts or twisting some...have you ever had such a critical look on your facts? Do you feel really confident with someone claiming 800 forms? Most experts past and present do not try to study more than roughly 20-30, weapons included...so 800??
I'd really like to see Shaolin-do move, to get an idea, to see if what the things SD detractors say are so obvious, or if it is something they see because they want to see it...I make no judgement on the martial practice itself, but I definitely know that the things that are claimed sound fishy to me...and I also know that whatever can be said about SD, you are indeed someone lots of persons here (me included) respect and appreciate and I guess the rest just doesn't matter...
Take care and keep training hard!

[This message was edited by Crimson Phoenix on 11-09-01 at 03:03 PM.]

Shaolindynasty

11-09-2001, 01:07 AM

That doesn't sound to far fetched about the Gi's but do you feel that Sin The has added significatly to the system since coming to america? I don't get upset with these guys like I do some other people who "push their product" on you. In order for Shaolin Do to "rip you off" you have to go to one. At least they aren't running a mail fraud or internet scam.

P.s. I don't have a problem with GI's. For "midwestern white folk"(I live in the midwest and am white but I don't belong to Shaolin Do) it is alot less expensive. you can get a Gi for about $20 my CMA uniforms range from $30 to $70.

www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Silumkid

11-09-2001, 01:22 AM

HEY! No fair talking about me when I'm not around, Rad! :p And just because I have hos in every area code, does not mean I'm hitting on Wushu Chik. That would be like hitting it with my sister! NASTY! I'm too much of a diplomat for her anyways!

Personally, I think of this issue this way: If I bought a Gremlin but paid a BMW price because the salesman told me it WAS a BMW and I believed it, who is to blame? I say we both are...the salesman is for taking advantage of a situation, and I am for not bothering to take the time to know better.

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

Brad

11-09-2001, 01:59 AM

[QUOTE]To avoid persecution Grandmaster Ie Japanamized (new word, like it? ) the system. Meaning he stuck -do on the end, added gis, added belts, added a few Japanese weapons (just in the lowest belts), started calling his kwoon a dojo, and sifu became sensei.[QUOTE]
Wouldn't they recognize the word Shaolin though? Also is there any way to check up and see if these guys actually existed? Like the original location of the school in Indonesia?

Ming the Merciless

11-09-2001, 02:08 AM

yeah, where exactly in indonesia??

The Willow Sword

11-09-2001, 02:31 AM

Yes i do feel comfortable with Gm Sin and his knowledge. it seems as though alot here question the validity of knowing over 800 forms and having mastered them in his time. most of us cannot see this as a reality because we feel that we could not accomplish such a thing. And yet we are capable of many things such as learning words and sentences that number in the thousands not to mention the languages in the world that some people can speak,,,for how did they learn to do these things? by dedication and focus. we only say it takes a lifetime to master a system because we limit our own abilities and mind to think that what we do learn is as endless as the universe,,quite the contrary,,,this planet and its dealings are minute. but the human mind seems to be something of a mystery....the Asian mindset is quite different from the american or post modern european mindset,,why do you think that the asian countries lead us in education and technology? there is an air amongst those people that has influenced us for centuries. i do not believe in superiority of race but i DO BELIEVE in superiority of MIND. i also feel that when GM Sin was learning these forms he was also writing them down storing the information passed to him. there was a time when people believed that human flight was impossible,,then the wright brothers showed up and that all changed,,then it was landing someone on the moon,,,then NASA changed all that. these types of advancements in our evolution have been happenening VERY quickly for us. so it does not suprise me that GM sin knows what he knows, and maybe he has a creative influence on these forms,,HE"S earned the right to do whatever he wants with the forms givin to him by master le chang ming. remember these were men who all they did was study buddhist and taoist doctrines and trained in martial arts. i am glad to just have a 4th of what the system has to offer,,i choose to stay in the relm of the internal,,taichi pakua and hsing yi and ALL that encompass that system and i hope to be able to pass that on to others and even create myself,,for that is what these arts are about,,,the first form ever taught in shaolin is NOT what is taught today or even a hundred years ago,,,it does not mean that what you are getting is not shaolin. some will call it a washing of the "Traditional" forms and principles..i call it
"evolving" okay so when the first plow was built to plow a field it was great and was used throughout the ancient world,,over time it was improved upon and now we have the good ole John Deere equipment. does that not make the plow a plow anymore? think about it... that comment about the gremlin and the BMW is way off and no offense but those ideologies are old and serve no use here. if you stay with one system of martial arts your whole life then that is what you do,,if you study different systems(as bruce lee did) then that is what you do. but dont go around with an inflamed sense of the grandious and say that SD is a joke or it is fake. look at what you are saying,,,think about what you are telling people,,,,there are many ways to create an apple and many ways to explain the apple but an APPLE is still an apple. just as there are many ways to explain shaolin kung fu and many systems therein,,but shaolin is still shaolin no matter how it looks and what is worn to perpetuate the look. i really do wish that most here would stop swimming on the surface of all these debates and get REAL and go deeper. i state this to Wushi chik and all who trash a system of martial arts that has been around longer than you have. what arrogance to think that any of you are authorities on anything regarding this subject. hell even i am not an authority on the subject but i know enough to know when something is real and has content and when something is all form and no content.
MAny Respects,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

Silumkid

11-09-2001, 02:56 AM

>>think about it... that comment about the gremlin and the BMW is way off and no offense but those ideologies are old and serve no use here.

How is what I said "way off"? Doesn't it make sense that if one were going to sell something, they should sell it honestly? Care to clarify your point here? I think mine was pretty clear.

>>if you stay with one system of martial arts your whole life then that is what you do,,if you study different systems(as bruce lee did) then that is what you do. but dont go around with an inflamed sense of the grandious and say that SD is a joke or it is fake.

Bruce Lee didn't call his art another art though. He put in the time and the study, came up with a philosophy that fit his thinking and gave it a name. He didn't call it "Jeet Shaolin Do".

And wouldn't "an inflamed sense of the grandiose" include saying things like "We study the combat art and all the other stuff is just wushu and not useful"? You HAVE done that in the past.

>>look at what you are saying,,,think about what you are telling people,,,,there are many ways to create an apple and many ways to explain the apple but an APPLE is still an apple. just as there are many ways to explain shaolin kung fu and many systems therein,,but shaolin is still shaolin no matter how it looks and what is worn to perpetuate the look. i really do wish that most here would stop swimming on the surface of all these debates and get REAL and go deeper.

So, out of curiousity, how many ways are there to create an apple? This is also why I am questioning you about why you dismiss my thinking as "old" when you have used the same basic premise in this very argument.

And your last point is really useless too. Saying one has to "go deeper" is kind of a cop-out. It's like the religious figures who say "All you have to do is believe in what I am saying and you'll know the truth". Sorry, but those of us who take the time to question don't buy into that thinking.

Ah well...you don't even have to answer this. I really don't care if Kwang The wears mumus and calls it "Super Buttmonkey Burrito Karate Kempo Connection". My thinking is too old and useless to be taken seriously. You can just dismiss me with another unspecific blanket statement.

And to think this all started as a troll...and **** me for getting sucked in. I guess I just dig controversy too much!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

firepalm

11-09-2001, 03:07 AM

Sin The is not Shaolin period. I've seen enough here & in Asia to know difference just as well as I can walk into a super market tell the difference between apples & oranges. You need to get out more Willow Sword. :rolleyes:

richard sloan

11-09-2001, 03:35 AM

What are the aspects of Ch'an as taught in Shaolin Do? Is there a recognizable Ch'an practice when training SD?

I mean also to include the forms in that question. For instance, in some of the movements in the traditional forms there are direct influences from, let's say, certain Buddhist rituals. These are some of the things which seperate traditional Shaolin martial arts from non Shaolin.

I think it would go a long way to see if this sort of thing exists within the Shaolin Do framework. Anyone who amassed that many forms, and had them transmitted not once, but three times, I should hope would have been given such information and would most certainly have passed that on to their disciples. Who is receiving this canon of forms now?

Just curious.

-richard

The Willow Sword

11-09-2001, 04:02 AM

firepalm: are you sure you saw what you saw?

silum kid: ok ill revise the Apple theory,,forgive my fast typing. There are many strains of apple,,each growing thier different environments taking up the characteristics to survive in those environments,,,they stemmed from one particular seed long ago but the fact remains that the apple is still the apple even though what we originally think an apple to look like ie:red, juicy, sweet. get the point now?

richard sloan: the c'han principles you talk about are done through our meditation classes. We, Unfortunatly do not teach the doctrines of buddhism,,but we are not a church or a cult of organized religion,,it is a martial arts school,,those who wish to study c'an buddhism do so outside and each brings to class thier own mindset with regards to the training.
Also our highest ranking master aside from Gm Sin is master bill leonard,,,but i do not believe that he is a successor to the grandmastership. i dont think that there ever will be another grandmaster like SIn The'.
MAny Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

blaktiger

11-09-2001, 04:44 AM

I went to the Chinese Shao-lin (love that spelling) center in Northridge, CA - a school run by Shaolin Do.

The GM was a complete *******, who was too busy working on his website to greet me. He instead sent one of his students over to me, who handed me arm loads of flyers, applications, "training packages", even information about their annual trip to China...all this before I got to watch a class.

They were intent on me signing up that evening, though I needed time to think about it first. I walked next door to the training room, and I nearly went blind from the sight. A fancy, wood paneled "studio", complete with the Tae Kwon Do school "Hey passersby! Watch us train in Karate" glass window. Oh, they were barefoot and wearing gis, customized with the school's logo on the back.

I nearly got into a car accident -- driving away so fast...

Needless to say, my current school was the exact opposite. My sifu stopped training to greet me, asked me if I had any questions, then scheduled me for an hour long interview, before he accepted me as a student. I've never looked back.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

Radhnoti

11-09-2001, 05:29 AM

Crimson...Monkeyslap Too has been an outspoken shaolin-do opponent. He's said that he had knowledge of other Chinese styles adopting gis to escape Indonesian persecution, not sure if the others adopted as many changes as ours though. I admit this is just what I've read/been told...but I've never had reason to doubt it. Especially when people on the other side of the discussion were verifying it.
Shaolindynasty...I'll be straight up with you. Shaolin-do students are told that everything we're taught was taught in the temple, with the obvious exception of the changes made by GM Ie. GM Sin's brother (personal issues drove them apart) basically says that GM Sin HAS added to the system, and claims that what HE teaches is the old curriculum. GM Sin, I'd assume, would say his brother didn't learn as much as the man who inherited the GM title. Personally, I wouldn't care if GM Sin changed the curriculum...he is the GM after all. But, it WOULD be wrong (again, in my opinion) to misrepresent the origin of what is taught. It's impossible to KNOW I'd say unless you were there what was originally taught. People that don't like GM Sin will say he's lying, no need for proof. Guilty until he proves something that can't be proven. People that love GM Sin (which is almost anyone that's studied with him) will say he speaks nothing but truth, and claim the proof is in the beauty of the system and how it progressively builds your abilities.
Gis. Yes, the affordability is an attractive bonus. But, my understanding is that GM Sin left ALL the changes as a sort of tribute to GM Ie.

Silumkid, a...diplomat!?! :D I knew you'd be around to defend yourself. "Hos" in every surrounding area code...that's about...what? 5 minutes per "ho"? I figured you'd just be occupied for about an hour or two...and most that was driving. :D :p
Seriously though, I've studied a few Japanese martial arts. Shaolin-do isn't like any Japanese style I studied. I think you're getting caught up in the name "shaolin". This has been discussed over and over on this forum...there REALLY isn't a single definition of shaolin anymore. What do you feel would give a school the right to use the term shaolin? Is it a way of movement? A historical link? A training method? How about ideas? I humbly (yeah, right! No, really!) submit that two folks from completely different systems could both rightly claim the name shaolin. And if someone started "policing" use of the name...who do you feel would have the right? The current temple abbot? One of the masters who was forced to flee years before? How about the highest ranking shaolin kempo instructor? It's an impossible situation to control, and it's ridiculous to even consider it. Again, just my opinion. Also, I don't think you'll find an example of TWS saying everything else is "just wushu". He's confident that what HE knows is practical, that doesn't mean everyone else is studying worthless material.
Brad, my understanding is that on the first trip the SD group took to China they made a stop at the old school in Indonesia. Also, GM Sin's brother (who obviously wouldn't lie to HELP GM Sin) verifies the existance of GM Su and GM Ie and the old school. I don't want to misrepresent them here though...they say GM Sin has lied, just not about that.
African Tiger, it's great that you found a place to train that suits you. I train in an old church gym that we've been granted access to two nights a week. It suits me the way I assume your school suits you. No one should train somewhere that they're not happy...

The Willow Sword

11-09-2001, 06:05 AM

A Tiger? in Africa? A TIGER IN AFRICA?
SHH SHH SHH.

dont know much about the school in CA. dont know who runs it or what they do. the only schools that i have visited are the ones in Ky. and my home school in Austin Tx. i apologize that you were treated poorly. im sure that was not the intent on thier part. if you are ever in Austin or in Taos, NM where i teach you will NOT get that same treatment there or in Austin.

MAny Respects,,Willow Sword.

oh and that first comment was taken from monty pythons' "the meaning of life" (there are no tigers in Africa) :D

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

richard sloan

11-09-2001, 06:15 AM

Well, Willow, I appreciate your response and spirited conversation. I will only say this, in my experience, every single monk I have ever met, and even the Shaolin disciples I trained with, do not split Ch'an from martial arts. That's not the way the art was transmitted to them, and I find it difficult to accept that anyone who was entrusted with over 700 forms would have shed that most holy of responsibilities to transmit that notion of unity, especially so if the first grandmaster of the lineage was a monk/abbot. If the forms were transmitted whole, out of the temple, then it would follow that the Buddhist elements I mentioned before would be there also. That unification is, after all, what made Shaolin Shaolin. Recall Yi Jin Jing. Generally considered the first action sutra. Although I often see it translated as "classic" or "form" the character for 'jing' is that for sutra. That's a very important point of distinction which is often not made. If I may ask, what are some of the most sacred forms in your canon? My feeling is that this doesn't really have much to do with being a religious institution presently, but I feel it does have to do with having a firm link with the temple(s) and being true Shaolin. I think in this it is very important. I mean, if you are just into self defense, then I guess that is fine, but Shaolin is so much more than that. An understanding of what I am attempting to discuss is sort of like a calling card if you will, one which would signal legitimacy. For instance, if two masters who derived their teachings from Shaolin met, they could exchange forms so to speak in recognition of each other.

There is a saying at the Temple in Honan, the exact words of which escape me presently, but it goes along the lines of, "Fa Ch'an Chuan Yi..." something or other. You'll have to be forgiving, my chinese is definitely not a specialty and there was allot going on around me. Anyway, the general meaning is that Ch'an Buddhism and Fist (martial arts) are one (in Shaolin.) A very rough translation but you get the conceptual idea I am sure.

I've seen plenty of people try and split them apart, but never a master, even if they weren't a monk.

This seeming discrepency, the splitting of the martial arts from Ch'an philosophy, would raise a red flag for me, and would cause some serious questions to spring to mind. Learning 700 forms is a monumental task, not to mention transmitting that 3 times, and it just seems rather odd that someone would go through all that to abandon the point of it all. Hopefully this will raise questions for you too if you think about this history Shaolin Do presents logically, and hopefully the resolution of these questions will be positive. It may be that you will continue your Shaolin Do training, and it also may be you will move on to something else.

-richard

The Willow Sword

11-09-2001, 06:30 AM

we do the i chin ching excersises and meditations.
there are 49 postures. as i stated before we are not a religious institution. we are a martial arts school,,even shaolin had its training hall and also its library of studies,,we are not in china and if we tried to teach those doctrines and live the shaolin way we would contradict ourselves in this society we live in.. we do the best that we can with what we have been given to us... plus we would be seen as a cult more so than we are now. also to add, this is a christian country and even though buddhism is practiced everywhere in the world,,it seems as though this country regards it as a fancy past time. i try to follow the ways as best as i know how,,and not all of those ways are buddhist Richard. the ways that we as a school unify is that we are a community based school,,like most schools in this country,,with an atmosphere of family and comradery there as well. we are as close to being like the temple as we can with out resorting to robes and shaving our heads. and "looking the part" hope this clears it up.
Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

Silumkid

11-09-2001, 06:37 AM

Rad, yeah, having hos so spread around does indeed amount to a lot of driving! I'm already over 90,000 on my poor car! :D

Good question about the "lineage" thing, and not one that can be easily answered. Opinions will differ (they always do). Honestly, I only really worry about what I am doing and I am very confident in my schools lineage and cirriculum to say that we can honestly (no dis intended) be called a Shaolin school.

I think a lot of people get hung up on the lineage thing, and in a way it does make some sense. But this entire issue can be argued either way endlessly...for instance, how can we know for sure if a lineage is true or not? What resources can the average Joe get hold of if they are interested in the research? It was put forth earlier that the lineages of other teachers may be false...one can then argue if other teachers do it, does that make it OK for every teacher to do it?

And so it goes....

See? I can be a diplomat when I want! :p

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

firepalm

11-09-2001, 06:57 AM

Willow Sword, to answer your question I know exactly what I've seen, having been at this for well in excess of thirty years. Much of that time spent in Asia. I've also travelled the US quite extensively to various CMA schools, functions, events, etc... to be able to get a handle on how many of the frauds (who often don't realize they're such) function & appear. Listen you just keep the blinders, believing what you like... the world is full of sheep.

Re your statement, "i dont think that there ever will be another grandmaster like SIn The'." Thank god for that!!! . :rolleyes: :eek:

HuangKaiVun

11-09-2001, 07:26 AM

Yeah - sheep who'd willingly and effectively fight to defend their styles.

Blinders or not, fraud or real, what does it matter? If it works, IT WORKS.

If anybody doesn't think Shaolin Do works, challenge the style.

Don't do the Ming - cowering in fear behind the safety of his keyboard screen while he throws flame after flame.

wushu chik

11-09-2001, 07:55 AM

And, what style did you say you did....??

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

The Willow Sword

11-09-2001, 07:58 AM

SHut your F!2cking face Uncle Fu#ker! :eek:

Firepalm obviously has the Canadian Shaolin Badge of Authority given to him by the honorable Abbot of the Canadian Shaolin Temple built out of whiskey bottle caps and mounty suits. the abbots name is Terance and his second in command Phillip,who teach the secret art of a$$ fire kungfu. and ill bet we all know what the firepalm is all aboot dont we? :p :eek:

Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

firepalm

11-09-2001, 09:36 AM

TWS... blah, blah, blah, bling, bling, bling... yeah whatever, say something intelligent...

Huang I am not questioning the ability of anyone in Shaolin Do to fight, they may well be able to do. What I am merely adding to this forum is that Sin The is not doing Shaolin, period. And that by putting the Shaolin logo on his martial arts he is misleading those that may not know better. I understand these forums are to be a place where discussion, sharing ideas & debate re CMA is expected. It appears to me that there are too many out there misleading or being mislead, & I'm just adding my two bits. So what's your problem?

South Paw

11-09-2001, 11:51 AM

Nin-po-dragon wrote:
Tiger,hung gar and wing chun are good. Alot of shaolin styles r. But shaolin lohan is quite stupid........the low postures!

Actually the form 'Kung Gee Fok Fu Kuen' - one of the 4 pillars of Hung Gar - is a Shaolin Lohan Form in origin.

South Paw

HuangKaiVun

11-09-2001, 02:19 PM

Seng Men - Monk Fist.

Likely none of you have ever seen or heard of it, though the style is fairly well known ABOUT in Henan Province.

I've done Northern Shaolin before (Kuo Yu Cheong Lineage).

One thing that style taught me was to be very respectful of styles that cull techniques from different methods. Shaolin Do is one of those styles.

This is because Kuo Yu Cheong's Northern Shaolin itself has influences from Chaquan, Yang Taijiquan, Choy Li Fut, and "traditional" Shaolin. In fact, any "original" Shaolin kung fu style took techniques from many other styles and stuck them in their curriculum the same exact way Shaolin Do does.

So whether or not the technique was "accredited" by a sifu or a "lineage" means nothing to me. The bottom line is does the technique WORK for the person who's using it?

I've seen "accredited" guys with **** poor technique and "fake" guys that would literally bash your head in.

My current sifu, who's gotten into tiffs with people here at KFO in other arenas, has always taught me that "people can talk all they want but when you TOUCH HANDS you KNOW".

The Willow Sword

11-09-2001, 08:33 PM

Fire palm has never seen Southpark the movie. In this artfully done animated cabaret CAnadians are portrayed quite well.
Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

Piccolo Junior

11-09-2001, 10:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by The Willow Sword:
Fire palm has never seen Southpark the movie. In this artfully done animated cabaret CAnadians are portrayed quite well.
Many Respects, Willow Sword
[/quote]

Just shut up, you ***g0t.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

shaolin white crane

11-10-2001, 12:32 AM

Ok here I go
Well first of all lets get one thing straight I not looking for an argument, I’m just stating an opinion of what I saw in your web site. In any martial art’s system there are some basic principle that serve as the foundation of such art. For example in taiji quan exist some, I will no waste your time because I know many of you know them specialty you TWS because you express a desire to specialize in the internal system realm, well let me tell you that what I saw was quite not what I was expecting
· No balance
· No maintaining center
· No absolute care for placement of dan tien and alligment of the column
· No coordinated movement of body “All body move at ones or it doesn’t move at all”
Then I saw something you called the Buddha fist, no balance, again, no center, no coordination it looked more like a set of yoga and believe me I do know how to see application, seem to me that he didn’t place attention to this, the again its maybe just an exercise to develop something I don’t know what.
I do believe in creating new systems base in the experience gather from years of practice you all have learn what I think of martial arts, if you don’t I m in the back post of this forum, but I do not believe in messing whit tradition in making people believe they are learning something that they are not, shao-lin goes beyond a uniform and a name , it is about there principle, which by the way are Buddhist and are universal principles not tied necessarily to any religious tradition, but I will look beyond that. In fighting there are many methods and many ways I do believe your system is quite effective but is not shao-lin it may have some roots in it, even though I don’t see them anywhere, it should be stated that it is not shao-lin.
My most admiration for you and your system
Amitoufo
Luis Fernando Espinosa Ceja

Radhnoti

11-10-2001, 01:10 AM

OK, Firepalm. All the questions I asked the "Mackin' Pimp Daddy Number One" Silumkid can just as easily be asked of you. ;) Define "shaolin". I can GUARANTEE you not everyone will agree with WHATEVER answer you put forth.
Richard, I greatly appreciate your tone and arguments. I admit I know VERY little about Buddhism, but I've developed an interest in Taoism of late. Wasn't there a bit of Taoist influence on shaolin practice? I respectfully disagree that any religious philosophy is necessary to study the art of shaolin fighting. However, as I've only studied for about a year in our system, I admit that my point of view could completely change as I'm exposed to higher levels of learning.
Shaolin White Crane, I don't think watching some "Realplayer" videos over the internet could possibly allow you to accurately judge a single form...much less a system. I hope you see the truth in that.

firepalm

11-10-2001, 01:47 AM

Well they (Shaolin Do) claim to be of Fujian origin, to my recollection they resemble nothing like what is seen of typical Fujian styles (many which have their origins in the Fujian Shaolin); Fujian White Crane, Di Shu Dog Boxing, Wu Cho Five Elders, Fujian Nan Quan, Fujian Tiger style, etc... Then there is the matter of Shaolin principles; qi, yi, shen, li, fa, etc... none of which instructors seems to demonstrate any knowledge of. I could go on but what's the point... provide any reasonable discussion in this thread you get the 'are you sure' from TWF usually followed by the @#%&* .. so I think it's best just to let TWF remain with his blinders. :rolleyes: :D

Radhnoti

11-10-2001, 04:11 AM

So...your problem is specifically with shaolin-do or anyone using the name shaolin? Do you feel Shaolin Kempo has "stolen" the shaolin name as well? What about Chung Yen Shaolin, which is a school claiming much of the same lineage and techniques used in shaolin-do? (Note: they disapprove of GM Sin.)
Shaolin Charters...do they have the right to the name? They sell boat trips.
Many on these boards feel the Shaolin Temple no longer teaches practical fighting techniques, just "for show" wushu. Does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to use the name?
How about "The Shaolin Monastery"? A "hacker" site I just found with a simple google search.
The word "shaolin" is just too big. It's impossible, in my opinion, to say "this is shaolin and this isn't".
You say TWS wears blinders, but you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that shaolin-do MIGHT have (if nothing else) a historical link to the Shaolin Temple. And, frankly, I feel that even a historic link would warrant use of the name.
Just my silly opinion again. Feel free to ignore anything that might not mesh with your particular world view. Everyone does that anyway. :)

firepalm

11-10-2001, 05:26 AM

With regards to the Shaolin & it's usage by groups (business or otherwise) outside of martial arts, I personally don't really care, there is no patent on the name nor do I have a vested interest. The Shaolin temple itself might have issue and that would be for them to take up (with the various hacker sites, clothing lines, noodle houses, etc...). With regards to Shaolin Kempo; I don't believe there is any lineage (not that I care too much about the lineage thing) but if someone is to ask I would say no speakable real association just a name borrow (understand I am not questioning Shaolin Kempo as a martial art or it's fighting effectiveness). Is the current Shaolin temple teaching real 'Shaolin' fighting or whatever; yes & no. They are doing a lot of Sanda (Sanshou). There is definitely modern wushu heavily incorporated & I actually see nothing wrong with it. While it may be seen by some as breaking with tradition on the other hand it can be seen as enriching the art further (subject ot debate). There is also a business side like it or not & China wants tourist dollars, the modern wushu element just makes it more interesting to look at for tourists. Most 'in the know' people are aware of the changes that have occurred (not all may agree but they're aware). There is I feel still real Shaolin there, but the temple & its martial arts are evolving (& apparently going through growing pains - struggles with religious ideals & modern economic realities).
What I take issue with is when is the anal rentitive political correctness on this board, 'oh you can't disrespect the great master!' Sometimes the truth be told a lot the so called great masters are in fact false. As I mentioned in an earlier thread it does a disservice to the Chinese martial arts in general when teachers misrepresent what they are teaching to those (new students) that don't know any better. Those students often go on believing wholeheartedly what they do to be authentic & continue to perpetuate the myth.

Radhnoti

11-10-2001, 06:58 AM

Originally, I had assumed your "issue" was the fact that shaolin-do used the name shaolin. My intent was to show that MANY varied groups use the name, and to fuss about it is silly. (By the way, do a search on shaolin kempo or kenpo, you'll get thousands of hits.) It's good to know that we agree, and the name shaolin-do no longer offends anyone (Wushu Chik excluded she made her feelings pretty clear).
Now, it seems your primary "issue" is GM Sin. It seems that everyone has a problem with him, but most can't put into words EXACTLY what it is...OR they can say what it is, but can't prove anything. It astounds me that you think anyone here follows the rules of political correctness. Have you seen the topic on the main forum "The World's Most Comprehensive Martial Art"? People there shamelessly (and classlessly...in my opinion) poke fun at a picture of our first GM who suffered from a skin disease. Even if you believe he wasn't a Grandmaster...it's a MAN suffering from a skin disease. People who get a thrill out of badmouthing someone with a handicap are pretty pathetic. But I digress... Search this forum...until just recently anyone who defended shaolin-do was assaulted on all sides. Only recently, with Willow's challenge to one of the primary "mouth boxers" has anyone thought to give shaolin-do any sort of respect. I hate to break this to you, but you're not a lone voice calling out in the wilderness...you're part of the torch bearing mob! ;)
You say you object to students believing incorrectly that what they do is "authentic". And I ask, who judges "authentic"? How many of the folks using the shaolin name do you believe would submit to any governing body that they weren't in control of? Why would they? And, frankly, I still think we're getting caught up in names here.
"Your shaolin is not MY shaolin, so it must be wrong!", is an easy path to take. Why not try, "Your shaolin and mine are different, isn't it amazing how individual's interpretations, time and transport to different countries can alter things?" :)

Ming the Merciless

11-10-2001, 07:12 AM

Huang,
sorry dude, but you are still a stupid fu(k. Nice try with that last post though.

Everyone should be more like Huang, meditate more, eat some lotus leaves and spout off about silly shiznit.

Hey Huang are you one of those people that doesn't like to spar?? to violent for you??

[This message was edited by Ming the Merciless on 11-10-01 at 09:22 PM.]

firepalm

11-10-2001, 08:05 AM

Radhnoti you seem in some way to have misread or misunderstood some of what I wrote so I will expand on some of your responses;

Radhnoti said "It's good to know that we agree, and the name shaolin-do no longer offends anyone." & "MANY varied groups use the name, and to fuss about it is silly." --- We do not agree as it does bother me, in that as I mentioned before it is false misrepresentation (& deliberate) in so far as martial arts groups go.

Radhnoti said "Now, it seems your primary "issue" is GM Sin." --- No only in that he is misleading people into thinking what he does his Chinese martial arts by virtue claiming to be Shaolin. He can run around in his Karate gi in his dojo, 'do'izeing all he likes I just wish he wouldn't represent it as CMA.

Radhnoti said "It astounds me that you think anyone here follows the rules of political correctness." --- People trash talk true & much of the time it's wrong, the political correctness I am talking about is the 'don't question the grand master (especially if he's Asian)'. I honestly don't read all the forums (especially the main one) but I am in agreement it is bad for persons to attack someone based on physical shortcomings.

Torch bearing mob? Moi! I hope not I am fortunate in that I've been able to see a lot, train with many different martial artists (here & in Asia), and simply try to evaluate what I see for myself.

Many in North America including some that are here from Asia have I believe a superficial knowledge of the CMA. With regards to myself & my knowledge I like to quote Einstein, 'The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know', I still have a lot to learn. Real Chinese martial arts (as well as other non Chinese martial arts) have almost no limits on where one can go with them. Shaolin Do is not one of those.

HuangKaiVun

11-10-2001, 02:57 PM

I see.

Shudokan (spelling, Ming?) , Okinawan Karate(2 years), Chi Tao Chuan,(1 year), Southern Longfist(2 months and counting).

That makes you the authority on Shaolin kung fu and Seng Men - neither of which you've studied or seen. With credentials like that, you should be EVERYBODY'S sifu.

What is hard for me to believe that you're a "test engineer". You are a "professional" in your field and you use this board as your flame toy? GROW UP.

But talk is cheap, as you have clearly evidenced. Try me or Shaolin Do, sifu.

Let's see how your mastery of "Shudokan, Okinawan Karate, Chi Tao Chuan, Southern Longfist" does against the "stupid fu(k" that I am.

Kung Lek

11-10-2001, 05:38 PM

Can we try to get this thread back onto something other than shouting at each other?

This has a potential to be better than what it IS becoming with the last few posts.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

Ming the Merciless

11-10-2001, 09:23 PM

Huang,

for the record I have never stated that I am a sifu. try again dummy.

I have not once ripped on your style either, and I won't, whatever dude. I have just been calling you stupid.

werent' you the dude who was the video tape warrior a while back, learning kung fu from video tapes?

hahahahahaha.

I don't have to justify anything in my profile to you. That would seem to imply that I cared what you thought of me.

Oh, and by the way I'm just flaming YOU at the moment. true entertainment.

[This message was edited by Ming the Merciless on 11-11-01 at 11:49 AM.]

Nick Monticello

11-10-2001, 10:12 PM

I went into a jewlery store once to by my lovely an engagement ring. I found one that was EXACTLY like she had pointed to weeks before. I was serviced by the owner of the store personally, and I bought the ring, a 1 carrate Diamond of beauty and sparkle. Thge cost was near $4000

I gave the ring to my lovely and asked her hand, she accepted and we were married.

Three years later just after the birth of my son, we were shopping for insurance after a reacent breakin on a neihbors home and decided to get the ring appraised. To our SHOCK and my wifes disbelife the stone was only glass. To this day she thinks I faked her out on that deal. The value of the ring was a measly couple hunderd bucks at best. I spent close to 4000 on it. When I went back to the stoe I bought it from, it had become a fast food jiont, which claimed to have been there for years.

As far as I'm concerned, in order for someone to spot TRUE Shaolin at the beginner level, they would have to tust an expert, or become one themselfes. Beginners and even intermediate students do not understand what makes Shaolin, Shaolin, just as "I" did not understand by looking at the ring weather or not it was a diamond or a cubic "Z". Then, who do you pick as your "Expert"? Surely if you have a qualified expert at your disposal, rather than have them inspect your prospective school should'nt you just train under them? I would.

For the rest, schools like Shaolin Do are robbing them blind and its sick and wrong. Maybe not as bad as my engabgment ring story, but it's wrong none the less. With that, the financial dammage was minimal, a mear $4000, but my wife's belife that I "Conned" her can never be overcome.

By the way, if you look at thier OWn site, and watch thier videos you can easily see NO resembalnce to ANY Chinese principals in those arts. The Mechanics and fundementals are just not there. HOWEVER they do represent some pretty standard Japanese fundmentals. Just look at the Mantis form on thier site. It has NO Matis in it at all. Only a slight flash of a mantis hand position thrown in to a clearly preformed "Kata"

Shaolin Do IS a fancy performance oriented Karate system, just like Modern WuShu is a Fancy Performance oriented Kung Fu system.

Worship me for I am GOD!!!!!

Brad

11-10-2001, 11:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You say TWS wears blinders, but you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that shaolin-do MIGHT have (if nothing else) a historical link to the Shaolin Temple.[/quote]
Please state what evidence there is linking Shaolin-Do to the Shaolin Temple other than the name, and the word of Sin The and his brother.

HuangKaiVun

11-11-2001, 04:07 AM

Face me anytime, Ming.

Radhnoti

11-11-2001, 05:47 PM

Firepalm, I fail to understand how you can have a problem with "shaolin" being used...especially considering the examples of people using the word that I supplied. Do you have a problem with shaolin kempo/kenpo as well? I assure you, GM Sin isn't trying to use the reputation of the current Shaolin Temple monks. To be blunt, in most shaolin-do articles, if they refer to those now in the temple they imply that they disapprove of the "wushu" now taught. On your other points, I suppose it's best to simply say I disagree.

Nick, I don't feel your example/parable applies as shaolin-do has been in this country since the 1960's. Longer than MOST CMAs were openly taught, and certainly one of the earliest (CMA) schools to open in middle America. At least this is my understanding. Once more, I disagree with the practice of judging a system by watching "realplayer" video. Making a video to show technique and application would be a difficult endeavour (ask Gene Ching, I'm willing to bet he'll back me on that). Now, compress that video ...or stream it over the internet, what does THAT do to the quality? I'm sure the videos you mention were filmed by some student with a passing knowledge of online video, not a professional who intends for people to learn from and/or judge it.
Um...if that story was true, I'm very sorry you were deceived, by the way.

Brad, we have a big stone tablet...wait, anyone can buy that...we have shaolin in our name...wait...anyone can do that...GM Sin has documents that were passed down to him from GM Su...wait...no one even believes he existed, and documents can be faked. :(
The destruction of the temple and the inherent secrecy surrounding most martial arts that are forced to go "underground" leaves little in the way of proof. GM Su and GM Ie were supposed to have studied at the Fukien Temple, even the EXISTANCE of this temple is debated by scholars. My understanding is that many schools (even a few "respected" schools) claiming shaolin lineage have only the word of the original teacher with perhaps a few documents. The "fact" that makes me believe GM Su existed is that GM Sin's brother says he did. The brothers are, basically, enemies now with a history of fighting, litigation...basically all the bad stuff that COULD crop up between family members. The fact that (GM of his own style now) Hiang The' supports the existance of GM Su, and is said to have a few pictures of him that GM Sin DOESN'T have is fairly convincing to me. Why would a person with a grudge (which I assume both brothers have against each other) acknowledge the truth of such a key issue for his enemy when it was false?
I feel like a broken record...I've presented this info almost word for word, over and over. I apologize to anyone who's read my ramblings and noticed how repeatative they become. :)
I only re-present this stuff so new forum members can see that shaolin-do practicioners have a point-of-view for all these issues. And that point-of-view isn't "I dunno" OR "baa...baaa....baaaaaaaa." :D

Piccolo Junior

11-11-2001, 06:36 PM

Actually, I do object to "Shaolin Kenpo" using Shaolin in their name, because Kosho Ryu Kenpo has nothing to do with the Shaolin Temple (and more to with a Japanese conman and extortionist named James Mitose who died in prison on the charge of murder).

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

Kristoffer

11-11-2001, 07:34 PM

I dont think that shaolin is too traditional. That depends on the various schools that teach it of course.

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

Kristoffer

11-11-2001, 07:48 PM

aah jeez,,, :rolleyes: after reading the whole thread.. all i have to say is:

LamO-Dragon, go **** yourself. That goes to anyone from Shaolin Do as well. Wushu chick rules. A message to ALL OF U

Shut up and go training!!! :mad: make me proud my little monkees :D

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

Kristoffer

11-11-2001, 07:50 PM

LET THA FLAMING BEGIIIIN!!! :eek:

UNNNNNLEASH, WRAAAATH!! :mad: :mad:

bWAhahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

Shaolindynasty

11-11-2001, 08:37 PM

Uhh guys I thought we got tired of this? Who cares anymore, to tell the truth I agree with them on alot of aspects. Alot of styles use the Shaolin name and for different reasons. I know some "famous grandmasters" that when you take a close look at them they wouldn't stand up to the standards you guys set. Take a good hard look at your own school's history or whatever, are you taking what is told to you or are you activly researching it? Who is the authority on this subject? I think GM Sin is a little misleading but at the same time so are hundreds of other "masters" out there, most just lie better and you can't tell as easy. Titles and names mean nothing, isn't the important thing the practice anyway?

www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Kristoffer

11-11-2001, 11:10 PM

i agree
sorry for dragging this crap up again

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

richard sloan

11-11-2001, 11:29 PM

Would either brother denigrate the supposed lineage that BOTH their reputations are invested in, irregardless of wether they get along with each other. Sin The's brother would obviously support the same lineage. If he did not, he would be calling himself a liar.

Rad- it is quite true that traditionally within the Shaolin Temple there was open philosophical exchange. In fact, we have a very famous wall scroll hanging in the back of our temple which depicts the fusing of Confucious, Lao Tze, and the Buddha in a tripartate figure. It is quite beautiful. Song Shan is one of the 5 most famous of mountain ranges in China, there are 4 in each direction, Hua, Tai, and Hung in the north and south, and in the center, is Song. For this reason, it is spiritually very important, and so there are many, many temples in the mountain range. The Shaolin monks believe that Shaolin Temple is located in the exact center of the world. I was told that practically on every mountain there were temples, and on some there were more than one, so it is reasonable to expect that there would be cross pollination of philosophies. I did see quite a few, and my mastr has said they often participated in different ceremonies with a particular Taoist temple in the near vicinity, and they would often hide there and vice versa. What proved true for their martial knowledge also proved true for their non martial- they grew and took what was good.

What we are dealing with here is what is reasonable. It is mostly opinion, sometimes informed, sometimes not. I think that upon thinking of the story of SD as it is presented, it gets a little fishy, from what I know which may not be much. What would solidify for me legitimacy and truth to the story would be to find some kind of evidence that is not easily falsified. Something that within the context presented, makes sense. I don't think the story makes sense. There are a few things which would be reasonable to find that are not there. For instance, the original Grandmaster learned 700 forms. This is remarked upon as being very out of the ordinary, and VERY special, within the story. The first of all Shaolin to have ever accomplished that. While I admit that remarkable firsts certainly happen, this man was accepted as he was, had the time spent on him and took the time, the effort, and the years to learn these forms, he became accepted as a Shaolin monk, and repaid that all by transmitting these teachings to someone who was not a Shaolin disciple in the Buddhist sense of the word. I find that strange and inherently difficult to accept. Not to say that Shaolin was never transmitted to non buddhists, but we are talking about a holy canon here. We're not saying a few forms were taught, we're talking the supposed entire body of Shaolin forms, many of which I know are held as very very sacred by the monks, and are rarely even shown, much less taught, to a non disciple. The story goes on. In addition to the remarkable 1st transmission, now there is a second (and now a third) and no Ch'an. This raises extremely bright red flags for me. I am sorry, but you are talking about a direct lineage back to a supposed Shaolin temple- there would be allot of Ch'an. THAT is the whole driving force behind Shaolin martial arts, CH'AN. Any monk will tell you that they teach Ch'an. Knowing what I know of the monks, this seems highly unlikely to me, that there would be no Ch'an transmitted by someone of such importance.

It has nothing to do with being a religious institution. I think some of Willow's remarks in that vein were not well thought out. Although there is certainly a more orthodox push in recent years in Shaolin, at my temple it does not matter what your religion is. Buddhism, technically, is not a relgion based on worship of a deity, although sure it can be argued that it is for some people, and some buddhist traditions that is true- they have deified him. In Shaolin, and I feel like in most Buddhist circles, it is a philosophy. This is why allot of Zen books and books on Ch'an bear the imprimatur of the Catholic Church. Damo came to Shaolin and saw BaTuo teaching what he termed Xiao Xing- small heart. He thought there was better. He had Dao Xing- great (open) heart. Which is why the spirit of the endeavour became more than the dogmatic interpretation.

Bottom line for me is, while some people would readily split Shaolin martial arts and Ch'an from each other, no monk ever would. If someplace in an SD form, like if they had the 108 Lohan, I heard a master tell me, okay, this movement is adopted from buddhist ceremony and this is why what, well, that would prove more than any kind of story or tablet. Within many Shaolin forms are such moves. They're like these little secrets. It can be argued that the forms are really action sutras by extension of the Yi Jin Jing, and Xi Sui Jing. I don't think a really really important monk- like someone who has the entire body of Shaolin forms, in transmitting his Dharma, would leave that out. In fact, I think that can really help you figure out who has the true Shaolin transmission, if that is important to you.

It's different if someone said to themselves, "Self, I really agree with Shaolin's philosophy of continually learning and having a dynamic canon of knowledge and so I will follow suit," and then created SD which may be a very viable means of self defense. But as soon as you lay claim to direct transmission out of a Shaolin Temple, and say what was said in SD's story then it logically follows that if that was all true then there's going to have been some Ch'an. I don't see how you can get around that at all. Even if it was only the bow. The story of Hui Ke maybe. Talk to me about Damo's marrow. I regret to say I have not yet seen any evidence of Ch'an, and Willow certainly did clear that up. If there is some, I hope someone will say.

I wish you all the best of luck and smooth roads ahead in your pursuits.

richard sloan