Martial arts being useless.

[red5angel]

So we have the age old argument about what art is better, what style of fighting is the best, ground fighting vs striking blah blah blah.

I turn 30 today and it has occurred to me it really doesn't matter. Yep, thats right, you heard me, it doesn't really matter.

My experiences up to date that have influenced the way I feel about it:

I have seen four fights fought using obvious martial skill, all four fights were ended using either Taekwon Do or Wrestling. Two arts any "serious" martial arts wouldn't take seriously.

In each Art I have personally studied, Wing Chun, Kali and now Praying Mantis, It appears some people are really good, others are really bad, and in between is the majority. I still have yet to see any of these arts really dominate another art being used against them in sparring, it turned out the skill and drive of the person using their particular art was the biggest deciding factor. Some of these guys were big guys, some of these guys were small guys. Size and strength seemed to play a big part in what I have observed so far, it doesn't always win but it seems to help a lot.
I can tell you this though, the grapplers seem to be pretty good on the ground, except for the bad ones. The strikers seem to be really good hitting, except again for the bad ones.
I have yet to see a secret or grand ultimate answer to close quarters combat except for the MP5 and M16 I carried in the Mrine Corp, and that really wasn't a guarentee either, but my feeling was that grappler or striker I could probably beat you with it, unless you had one and were better then me.

So it turns out that it really is the man, or the woman, behind the art that matters the most. There are some pretty arts out there. The SPM I am studying looks pretty cool and I would be willing to bet a pretty good martial artist could make most of it work for them in just abot any situation. Wing Chuns not so pretty, but it turns out you still need a little more then just to be studying wing chun to be "good" at it. Kali is fun as hell, and brutal in my opinion, but again, like having a whole rack of tools, if you don't know how, you can't fix the car, and some guys just seem to be able to fix cars better then others, even though for the most part they are all using the same tools.

So my philosophy, starting out my third decade of existance is going to be concentrating on what I like and enjoy. I'm not going to care so much what it is you study or the guy next door, or the guy in class standing next to me. Who knows, whatever it is they might just be able to kick my ass no matter how much I have convinced myself their art sucks ;)

good luck and happy training!

[Merryprankster]

SPM sucks.

So do you.

[red5angel]

Like I could take a grappler seriously...

[Judge Pen]

1st: Happy Birthday.

2nd: Does this mean that SD doesn't suck now? :)

3rd: I've always thought that MA doesn't make a good fighter. It makes good fighters fight better. There's got to be some attitude and intent before your applications and techniques can be effective. Some people are born with it and some people learn it along the way. Some great MAs will never have it no matter how good they look in class.

[shaolinboxer]

:)

Happy birthday. Keep on training!

[MasterKiller]

Somewhere in there, the quality of training has to factor into the equation, regardless of style. Someone who could be a great fighter might never realize his potential with crappy training.

[red5angel]

Masterkiller, absolutely my freind. I meant to mention that in my email but fro some reason blew past it. Although to some degree I think some people may even be able to overcome that. The body can only do so much and it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what is working and what isn't.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, the way I see it, the "Best" martial art, is really the best for "You". Take me for instance. I have been around learning different variations of Shaolin Kung Fu for just over 14 years now, a bit of Taiji Quan, and some other internal stuff here and there (8 mother palms mid 90's for example), but so far what seems to have taken me the most is my Tai Tzu. Yes, I have to earn it by video exchange because with one exception, all the qualified masters are over seas, and finding training partners to consistantly work wiht is hard sometimes because of the video thing, but I think I have gotten more out of it than anything I have done thus far, except for my more reacent internal project (Which ties into the Tai tzu to an extent anyway).

People give me greife about it because it's such an "Unconventional project", but I spanked the stuffing out of my partner lastnight pretty much useing the form verbatum (Yup, a section of the set actually applied to sparring move for move exactly as in the form).

Aside from the fact that The style is solid, I think the "Self direction" aspect of the way I'm learning it is what is working the best. It really allows my creative juices to flow. I'm free to experiment, test and play with any aspect of the system I like. I don't have to follow anyone elses curriculem, anyone elses style, or anyone else false belifes. But at the same time, I have a guide in the form of the formal routines that gives me the bennifts of others past experiances.

[red5angel]

RD, I think to a certain extant I could agree with you, except that I think that finding your perfect fit is just a small part. For instance with my car metaphor, if you are good at working on cars, there may be a particular make or model you are really good at, but in general you are pretty good at fixing all of them.

By the way, I think any good martial arts school is going to encourage you to experiment and examine what you are learning. The SPM school I am going to currently really encourages that. At some point the instructor asks that you go out, possibly check out another art or two to see what it is they do, compare it to what you do, and come up with a form that integrates what you know and what you observed form the other art. Some people design forms that are "fighting" the other style, some integrate what they learned into the stuff they are learning in class.

[Budokan]

"Martial arts being (sic) useless"

"Shh!" :looks around conspiratorially: "You want to f*ck up a good thing...?

[shaolinboxer]

Red5angel -

Sounds to me like you have finally figured entered advanced training. It's all bull****, and that's what makes it beautiful.

[red5angel]

shaolinboxer ;)

I used to have all sorts of reasons for doing it. often those reasons changed or sort of rotated in and out of the top position, now it's not so important as to why I am doing, but that I am doing it and enjoying it!

[fa_jing]

So my philosophy, starting out my third decade of existance .....

Hate to nitpick, but you are beginning your fourth decade
:)

[red5angel]

LOL! too true brother, too true...

[shadow]

Its not the martial art. Its the person using the martial art. I know its cliche' but nonetheless true.

[shaolinboxer]

It's not even the person using the martial art. It's just the person :).

[Royal Dragon]

RD, I think to a certain extant I could agree with you, except that I think that finding your perfect fit is just a small part. For instance with my car metaphor, if you are good at working on cars, there may be a particular make or model you are really good at, but in general you are pretty good at fixing all of them.

Reply]
See, I'm the type to make my own car. If not, I'd rework the one I had till it roared in it's own unique way. If MMA had been around when i first started this stuff, I doubt I'd be messing around with Traditional styles today.

Of course, I always did have an affection for the classic old "Muscle" cars. So long as I built the motor myself, to my specs, same with the trans and suspension, and of course no way I'd stick with the factory paint, when I could lay a cool "Candy" or "Pearl" color down myself. Then the I'd have to custom tweak the interior....................:D

[ewallace]

You can use snap-on tools, matco tools (insert tool of choice here), but the end result is to fix the car.

[MasterKiller]

Sure, but as Jeff Spicoli taught us all, tools designed to fix a TV set cannot be used to fix a trashed Trans Am.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!!, I have both Snap On, AND Matco!! (and some Macks, and even a couple of old "Vulcan tools")

[ewallace]

Sure, but as Jeff Spicoli taught us all, tools designed to fix a TV set cannot be used to fix a trashed Trans Am.
Well, I don't exactly use my martial arts skills to bake lemon meringue pies either.

[Golden Arms]

Red5Angel, that was one of the best posts I have read on here in a long time! Thanks for that!

[ZIM]

Actually, that WAS the best post in a long time. I like this older wiser, compassionate conservative, sense-talking, shootin' R5 non-robot with a kung-fu grip.

Jeez, now that you've exposed the fraud, what next? Free the oppressed benighted hoodwinked hordes of MAs, or prove that they can't be freed? ;)

[fa_jing]

Some Martial Arts style is better than no training at all - although most of the real learning took place in a free-form manner - to wit: sparring.

[Shaolin-Do]

1st- Happy Birthday
2nd
nice post.

[red5angel]

fa_jing, I was going to agree with you at first but then I gave it some thought and I am not so sure I agree. Not sure how to explain why I might not agree either.

ZIM, call me conservative one more time and I kick your a$$!!!!!

ok maybe not.. ;)

[rogue]

First, you're an idiot!
Second, Happy Birthday
Third, What's the deal with Blueman Group?
Fourth, I was just kidding about the First.


So it turns out that it really is the man, or the woman, behind the art that matters the most. Kinda sorta. How you train and what you train for also comes into play. One thing we were talking about after class the other night was how proper sparring/sport may teach better attributes for self defense than training realistic self defense. Most self defense training is reactive where sports training tends to be proactive towards the opponent. That may account for the effectivness of the TKD and the wrestling that you witnessed. Just a theory.

[ZIM]

Ok, beat me up, then...ho hum...:p

But really, I was "completely" serious about the question. :p

If you're saying its not the art, but the man/woman who counts, you are maybe saying that they 'can't be freed from the fraud' [as it were]. You said 'skill and drive', so maybe a philosophy coach IS the best thing for ppl who don't have that already. You know, to argue them into it, or whatever.

[although I personally think a good drill sgt does a better job...]

But, if you're saying that this principle that you have found to be true will be able to help them and NOT any specific art, then I'm wondering if you're not making a 'Bruce Lee' argument? ie, system of no-system, etc.

BTW, I'm not arguing against the point, just trying to get you to publish the "Tao of R5" before MerryPrankster gives you the deathtouch for revealing the secrets of Kung Fu at Rennaissance Festivals and teaching Gwailos.

[yenhoi]

Its really funny that it took you 30 years to figure all this out.

Just think what you will "know" when your 60, man!

:D

[HuangKaiVun]

I feel that martial arts are more useful than ever.

Several of my students have been in real-life fights, one of them life-threatening. Without the training, they'd have been seriously injured or dead.

In those fights, the conflicts were against bigger and stronger opponents who were intent on doing SERIOUS damage. Each time, the students managed to defeat or escape their attackers and then told me "I applied Ward Off" or some other technique afterwards.

Criminals are tougher and more violent than ever before. Most of them have some serious training and are more than willing to apply it. Without martial arts training, you are at their mercy (and they have NONE).

By practicing the art of dealing with real-life criminals in a realistic fashion, a martial artist gains the technique needed to assess his surroundings properly. This in turn leads to an increase in self-esteem, as the high-level martial artist avoids bad situations and understands his strengths and weaknesses.

In short, the skilled martial artist learns about HIMSELF. And that's what training is all about.

[Mr Punch]

The tool analogy is quite interesting... but I'm not trying to fix a TV or a car, I'm trying to smash them into tiny tiny tiny pieces and dance on the very memory of their blighted substance bwuhaha!

So the tools aren't so important. A big beaty thing doesn't need to be as job-specific as a wee tweaky thing.



BTW, I find taichi is by far the best for making lemon-meringue pies.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Its really funny that it took you 30 years to figure all this out.

Just think what you will "know" when your 60, man!

:D LOL :D

Then he may just know

a punch is just a punch
a kick is just a kick
a pai is just a paaaiiii!
the fundamental rules apply
as time goes by...!
:D