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View Full Version : Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, Wing Chun



HappyPuppy
04-05-2000, 08:29 AM
I've been taking Wing Chun Kung-Fu
Anyways, I've heard all this talk about Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, WingTsun, and Ving Tsun. I'm just wondering what the difference is.




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GRRRRRRRRRRRRR
WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF

flavour54take2sameperson
04-05-2000, 11:24 AM
The spelling

Sihing73
04-05-2000, 03:17 PM
Hello,

As Flavour has indicated the major difference is in the spelling. They are all pretty much the same thing with minor differences in applications. Some are more strength oriented while some lean towards a more "soft" approach. Ving Tsun is the spelling of the earlier students and was the name apparetnly favored by Yip Man, he formed the "Ving Tsun Athletic Association" and used that spelling. However, the difference really comes from the fact that Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun do not translate directly into English. Hence each spelling is correct. Wing Tsun, now Wingtsun, is a marketting monicor which is used to distinguish Leung Tings methods from the others. Moy Yot uses Ving Tsun and many of the other studnets of Yip Man seem to use Wing Chun. I would say that Wing Chun seems to be the most common spelling and most widely known. But, all are correct and all mean pretty much the same thing. Also, the other branches seem to use Wing Chun to identify themselves. There are others in addition to Yip Mans lineage. Can get confusing, eh /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hope that helps. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

whippinghand
07-08-2001, 08:20 AM
The difference is in what each is missing.

Anarcho
07-08-2001, 02:43 PM
Whipping Hand is right. Individually they are each fairly powerful, but somehow lacking. When combined they form a super-style that is unbeatable. Just like Voltron. :p

Soup is good food.

Starbuck
07-08-2001, 06:52 PM
The lion Voltron or the vehicle Voltron?

<HR>"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform." - Mark Twain

IronFist
07-08-2001, 08:35 PM
They're just having fun with the English language.

Wing Chun

Say "Chun at the very front of your mouth. The "ch" almost becomes a "ts." Wing Tsun.

In Sweedish, a V is pronounced like an English W.

Ving Tsun.

English get's stupid like that sometimes. It's like the word "Drunk." It's written d-r-u-n-k, but it's prounounced "Jrunk." Same thing with "Tree." Unless you say it at the tip of your mouth, it's going to be indistinguishable from "Chree."

Your linguistics lesson for the day is over :)

Iron

Anarcho
07-09-2001, 01:32 AM
The lion Voltron, I think. I'm not sure yet, I haven't achieved mastery.

Soup is good food.

EmptyCup
07-14-2001, 11:30 PM
"Wing Chun" is the general spelling of the art in English. It is the so-called phonetic way of writing in English the Cantonese pronounciation.

"Wing Tsun" is sometimes used by the old Hong Kong students of Yip Man but nowadays it's usually "Ving Tsun" as in the Hong Kong Ving Tsun Athletic Association.

"Wingtsun" is the way Leung Ting's organization chooses to distinguish it's own altered brand of the art.

Phil Redmond
06-20-2003, 07:16 AM
I have been getting emails from my site regarding the spelling Wing Chun. Someone wrote angrily that I didn't even know the proper way to write Wing Tsun. So for some that don't know, (and I believe most do). Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, Wing Chun are pronounced "Wing Chun" in Cantonese. The changes in spelling can reflect different WC organizations. HK was a British colony and the Brits used the initials WC for water closet, (toilet). So the initials WT were used instead of WC. For those who aren't sure please show the characters for Wing Chun to a Cantonese speaker and listen to how they pronounce them. You will hear, "Wing Chun", not Ving Tsun or Wing Tsun.

EnterTheWhip
06-20-2003, 07:35 AM
Go train....

Phil Redmond
06-20-2003, 08:33 AM
Thank you. I will.

Tom Kagan
06-20-2003, 09:47 AM
Cantonese is a dying language. Three centuries ago when the art we practice was born, Cantonese had 10 distinct tones used to distinquish words. Today, spoken Cantonese is cut down to 6 tones. Language scholars bicker whether a 7th tone has been lost in the last half-century, but it doesn't matter. The Chinese government has sealed the fate of the Cantonese language and a 4 tone language from the north will all but destroy Cantonese in the next century. Cantonese, if it survives at all, will only be known to language scholars. But with a little luck, a few words and phrases will be preserved in Ving Tsun circles.

It was the 4th of July, 1967 (Ving Tsun Day) when the Ving Tsun Athletic Association filed its offical papers with the Hong Kong government. The spelling of the association's name was argued about up until that morning. Tsui Shong Tin's student Chi Nam Kwong is a language scholar. Ultimately his argument prevailed over everyone else and "Wing Chun" became "Ving Tsun." From that day forward, most all students of Yip Man who remained close to their Sifu adopted the new spelling to honor their Sifu's decision.

"Ving Tsun" is pronounced "Wing Chun." But, the new spelling was chosen specifically to honor the 10 tone language of a woman spoken by those who learned the art centuries before I was born. Today, our modern ears are not trained to make a distinction between "Ving" and "Wing" or "Tsun" and "Chun" and some of my brothers will insist there is no difference and the Yale romanization "Wing Chun" spelling is correct. They are right. But I am not so bold to do what they are able to and put "Wing Chun" on my school's sign.

I honor my Sifu by using "Ving Tsun" as he wanted. But, actually I honor my Sijo by using a spelling a little closer to maybe what she heard when people called out her name. I am ashamed to say my ears are deaf to the tonal difference that time has robbed from my native tongue. But I still want to honor her the best I am able. So, I write the transliteration of my Sijo's name as "Ving Tsun" even though when spoken to my ears it sounds wrong or even worse, I cannot hear the difference. Three centuries from now, when time robs my descendents of the entire language of Cantonese and they want to say out loud "Yong Chon" instead of "Wing Chun" or say something else, I can only hope they honor their Sijo by remembering her the same way Chi Nam Kwong remembered her and fight the way he fought to spell her name "Ving Tsun."

text excerpted from an unpublished manuscript, by Moy Yat, circa 1998.

reneritchie
06-20-2003, 09:59 AM
In Tuishanwah, which I guess will die as fast if not faster than Kwangchowwah or Heungkongwah, it does sound a little closer to "Ving Tsun" to my ear. Kwangchowwah sounds a little closer to "Wing Chun". I would guess Faatshanwah would be somewhere in the middle.

300 years ago, on the border of Wahnam and Szechuan, who knows what it sounded like?

PaulH
06-20-2003, 10:15 AM
Phil,

The Vietnamese learn WC from the Chinese there. The language mimics the Chinese sound and it sounds more closer to Ving Tsun. For the linguist, it spells as: Ving Xuan where the X is the equivalence of Ts.

Regards,

yylee
06-20-2003, 10:27 AM
geee...., Cantonese is a dying language/dialect?!

someone told me if you read Tong dynasty poetries out loud, using Cantonese pronounciation will sound way more natural than Mandarin. Mandarin is a relatively newer dialect, I believed it was first popularized by the Qing government.

anyway, but the popularity of Mandarin is surely there and gaining year after year.

some Chinese do pronounce "Wing"(praising) or "Weng" (external) with a "V" sound done by a little lip byting. May be "Ving" is closer to the FatShan dialect which YM spoke.

Cantonese is actually the official dialect of the Canton province. Among Cantonese there are probably at least half a dozen sub-dialects. Although these sub-dialects are close to each other, there are many interesting differences in tones.

Rene:
One time I showed some Chinese characters to my Japanese and Korean friends, they pronounce them in ways that are very close to Cantonese.

ntc
06-20-2003, 11:03 AM
yylee:

I second you on your reply.... Cantones is the MOST spoken dialect outside of China. I myself speak Cantonese being born in Macau, and the dialect being the primary conversation language in both Hong Kong and Macau, and from what I am finding, most of the Chinatowns in the US and Canada. And also, Cantonese has nine tones, and is still taught as so today, especially in Canton. Can't really see it being extinct and dying.

Regarding Chun or Tsun, it really is just a pronunciation issue. The proper Cantonese pronunciation has a "TCH' type sound to it. Both are very close, and in fact, a lot of other Chinese characters with this type of sound begin with either, depending on the publication. For example, you will find the last name "Cheng" oftentimes written as "Tseng", "Cheung" as "Tseung", etc. "Ch..." and "Ts" are commonly used as the English pronunciation of the actual "TCH" sound. Until an official standard (like the Mandarin pinyin standard) is used, you will continue to see the use of "TS" and "CH".

Tom, I quote you: "I know that lots of wc folks clamp and use muscle in the ygkym-
I dont- there is no forced locking in...the settling of the pelvis is natural"
--> I highly doubt this because:
(a) Most of Yip Man's students in Hong Kong have a very poor command of English (especially the earlier ones), and could care less how it was spelt in English
(b) Leung Ting used Ving Tsun in the English language newspapers (like the South China Morning Post and the Hong Kong Standard) as he was one of the first, if not the first, to actually publicize the art openly in Hong Kong using the news media and television. He could just as easily have used Wing Chun to begin with.
(c) Most of Yip Man's students remain loyal to Yip Man, even to this day, thirty years after his death. In China, loyalty and dedication to a kung fu art and to the teacher is often times a lifelong thing, which is why you will not be surprised to see a lot of students having followed their teachers for decades.

Over the past twenty years, I have seen the whole topic of "Ving Tsun" being a "special" meaning being pushed and extrapolated, especially in the Western world as Leung Ting's organization got bigger. This, in addition to fuel added by quabbles between students from his organization and other ones like William Cheung's, made this even more of a hot topic. But in all honesty, it is just simply Wing/Ving Chun/Tsun... just look at the Chinese characters... that is what counts... you do NOT have different Chinese characters distinguishing one from the other (other than possibly Weng Chun, which I haven't had the time to take a look at)

Phil Redmond
06-20-2003, 11:09 AM
"Phil,
The Vietnamese learn WC from the Chinese there. The language mimics the Chinese sound and it sounds more closer to Ving Tsun. For the linguist, it spells as: Ving Xuan where the X is the equivalence of Ts."

You could be right but, I speak the Cantonese of Canton proper. That's what I leaned in College. According to Yale University Romanization, (which is used by the US Foreign Service Dept). the pronounciation is Wing Chun. I know there are many different dialects in Sounthern China. So there are possibly other pronounciations in dialects I don't know.

Tom,
Romanizing a word in another language can be tricky. I personally have yet to hear someone from HK or Canton pronounce Wing with a V sound. My present Chen TC instructor just moved to Detroit from Canton. He says, Wing Chun. Lot's of us add 'R" sound to Cantonese also. Like Gor Sau. There are no 'R' sounds in Cantonese. As far as Cantonese dying. I don't think so. People in the Philippines have to learn Tagolog but cultural pride keeps them speaking their provincial dialects like Versian, or Kampampangnan. It would be sad to see any people's dialect die.

ntc
06-20-2003, 11:12 AM
Good points, Phil. I definitely agree with you about pronouncing "wing" versus "ving"..... in fact, the "v" sound really doesn't exist in the Cantonese language, not to my knowledge. Most of the nine tones are nasal and throat sounds.

reneritchie
06-20-2003, 11:40 AM
FWIW, it looks like Tom was posting something originally written by the late Moy Yat sifu, so while he may or may not share some/all of the expressed opinions, they look to be Moy Yat's.

Alpha Dog
06-20-2003, 12:45 PM
Mandarin sounds way better than Cantonese.

And as for Tang Dynasty poetry, the courtly language of the day was very similar to the dialect spoken in FuJian province today (mingnanyu), which is virtually the same as Taiwanese.

All this, of course, has nothing to do with Wing Chun.

LC-NYC
06-20-2003, 12:47 PM
Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, Wing Chun Kuen, Spring Boxing, Everlasting Boxing, Fukien Wing Chun,Street Combat, Chinese Boxing, Southern Boxing, Close Range Combat, Inspired by Wing Chun, Wu -Tang, and the wu, the we and the wa!
No wonder every one is confuse!

We are in the U.S.A and Wing Chun sounds very good to me. It's spelled the way it sounds. Wing Chun, Wing Chun, Wing Chun! toilet water my ***

When can we just all get along?

reneritchie
06-20-2003, 12:49 PM
AD,

Probably similar to the original language of Cantonese opera, as well.

Tom Kagan
06-20-2003, 12:50 PM
ntc,


Tom, I quote you: "I know that lots of wc folks clamp and use muscle in the ygkym-

:confused: When did I ever say this? Not only do I usually ignore that type of conversation, I don't even like to use abbreviations most of the time.

Leung Ting uses "Wing Tsun," not "Ving Tsun." The reason given why Yip Man did not choose that spelling in 1967 is because "WT" was the way the SiHings used to tease Leung Ting for writing the articles. They meant it as "Waste Time" (the same way "EnterTheWhip" was trying to troll Phil - people haven't evolved much in 40 years regardless of the evolution of their respective language. :) ) As stories go, the biggest objector to that spelling was Leung Sheung.

Additionally, there are a few groups out there that use entirely different Chinese ideograms than the ones for "Wing/Ving or "Weng" and "Chun/Tsun" - the ideograms, transliterations, and pronunciations are all different. It's still essentially the same art, though.

Phil,

I agree: It is kind of sad when a language dies and only the very few determined to keep it alive are the ones fighting to speak it. The "V" referred to the already dead portion of the language of Cantonese known only to scholars. Sure, Moy Yat did give a dire prediction. But, he did spot the prediction 100 years. Still, the number of Mandarin speakers here in New York's Chinatown now rivals the number of Cantonese already.

On the other hand, no matter how tragic, it is laughable when someone tries to keep a language alive that should rightly be dead. Check out http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3018411.stm

Rene,

You're right on both counts. It's Moy Yat's words. I used to do the English editing for him when I was around, though.

And you're right: there is no way to know how things were pronounced 300 years ago. But, I think a small group of well educated native speakers (among them three linguists) in 1967 had a better idea about it than I or a French Canadian could ever dream of. And, they had far great motivation for finding a better transliteration that we could expect to look for because they were trying to avoid putting "WC" on their building in a British Colony. ;)


Regional pronunciation differences of tones, fricatives, stop-plosives, etc. will always exist, and the number of differences in any language number usually over 40, not just the basic tones: 4 (Mandarin), 6 or 7 (Cantonese, depending on the scholar), 9 (as ntc claims), or 10 (ancient Cantonese), as suggested here. The real issue is whether the differences create different meanings - different words. It's one thing to have a regional variation. It is quite another thing for a pronunciation difference to produce a "tower of babel" situation.

American English has the word "idea" pronounced "eye - dea" and "aye - dee - er" among quite a few other ways for that one word. It might sound funny for one region to say "idea" to another, but they can and do without misunderstanding because a child's brain is trained from birth to overlook any surface distinction of their native tongue(s) when there actually isn't a distinction to make. But, whether to place the accent on the first or second sylable of "therapist" is a good and somewhat amusing example of an important pronunciation distinction. Just these two cases could trip up a non-native speaker - even a fluent speaker (true story - sorry SiHing :p )

(Shameless plug: published in 1976, my aunt and uncle, Abe & Betty Lass, compiled a book called "A guide to 8,000 Commonly Mispronounced Words". The book consisted of entries for American English of every major dialect pronounciation difference of the words in the book.)

Quick Coan for Zen crowd: Find 5 words in Modern American English where the letter "w" is used as vowel.

ntc
06-20-2003, 01:01 PM
Tom:

My sincere apologies. I put in the wrong quote.... I had just answered another post in another thread, and somehow when I did a cut and paste, the other quote came in. Sorry about the confusion.

This is the quote I meant:

"From that day forward, most all students of Yip Man who remained close to their Sifu adopted the new spelling to honor their Sifu's decision."

ntc
06-20-2003, 01:02 PM
LC-NYC:

I quote you:

"When can we just all get along?"

--> AMEN !!!

yylee
06-20-2003, 01:19 PM
sure we can all get along.

so let me add one more, shouldn't be a problem, right? :D

Wuoeng Chun!

this is closer to MY Cantonese, of course I think it sounds more beautiful than others right, AD? ;)

reneritchie
06-20-2003, 01:22 PM
French Canadian

Is Old Jong posting on this thread? Me, I'm a transplanted South African of Scotch/Irish and German ancestry ;) Parents named me Rene 'cause it was pretty rare in Jo'burg. Then they moved me here. Go figure.

Not that I think they spoke anything like Africaans in the Liangshan region back then anyway, ech man?

WCis4me
06-20-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by reneritchie


Is Old Jong posting on this thread? Me, I'm a transplanted South African of Scotch/Irish and German ancestry ;) Parents named me Rene 'cause it was pretty rare in Jo'burg. Then they moved me here. Go figure.

Not that I think they spoke anything like Africaans in the Liangshan region back then anyway, ech man?
Hi Rene,
You had me fooled lol.
I am French Canadian. Father is French, Mother is english/irish/scottish. My entire family (even great grandparents on both sides) spent most of their lives in Lachine, 43rd street I believe, (mom grew up there). I moved to Vancover when I was young, then went back for awhile as a teen.
I was born in QE hospital downtown Montreal and lived in Ville St. Laurent (which I belive is Pierrefond now) so I guess that makes me one of those 'Montreal girls'.;)

Regards,
Vicky

Mr Punch
06-20-2003, 09:27 PM
I've had three Cantonese instructors, (all of them 'native' speakers with Cantonese as a first language) one from Shanghai, one from Kuala Lumpur, and one from Vancouver.

The one from Shanghai was of the opinion Cantonese was dying. The one from KL thought it was flowering. The one from Vancouver had no opinions on anything (!).

All of them had different pronunciations (esp regarding 'l' and 'n' and the inbetweeny one). All of them used 7 tones.

One of them said wing chun like 'yweung chu'en'. One of them said it like 'pven'g chuun'. One of them didn't say it!

Consequently my Cantonese sucks!:D (That's the only reason, honestly!)


All I'm trying to say is there are many dialects and provenances, many opinions, but that all languages always change, and while I am for preserving tradition, as languages change, traditions do too, and vice versa. Clinging to a dying language, trying to preserve it in a way that you fondly imagine someone used it at another time in another place, seems to me to be historical vanity, or maybe just historical pigheadedness!

reneritchie
06-21-2003, 05:42 AM
Vicky,

My sifu actually teaches just across the road from Lachine's 55th avenue (in Dorval near the runways). I'm about 10 min. from there in Pierrefonds (since the mega-merger, we're the borough of Pierrefonds/Senneville now -- St. Laurent is still St. Laurent due to its sprawling size). Good to know we have a fair number of at least partial Montrealers on here (makes up for all the Torontonians ;) )

yuanfen
06-21-2003, 08:40 AM
Rene sez:
Good to know we have a fair number of at least partial Montrealers on here (makes up for all the Torontonians )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that a distinction with a difference-besides the politics of federalism and cheering the hockey teams- and different ways of squatting on Indian lands? Say no to HydroQuebec-OOps. Wrong list!

Alpha Dog
06-21-2003, 08:45 AM
Montrealers can't speak English well, that's how you identify them.

For example, the simple sentence "I am learning Wing Chun" comes out as "I am learning-guh Wing-guh Chun." Disgusting sound.

Phil Redmond
06-21-2003, 02:27 PM
Matt
>>I've had three Cantonese instructors, (all of them 'native' speakers with Cantonese as a first language) one from Shanghai, one from Kuala Lumpur, and one from Vancouver.<<

The one from Shanghai "probably", (as I can't say for sure), spoke Shanghainese which is different from Cantonese. The one from Kuala Lumpur may or may have spoken Cantonese like in the city of Canton. And may have had influence from other Chinese or Indonesian. I have heard the difference between HKers using L in place of N in many words. Also, I can't see Cantonese as a dying language. Some people, unlike most of us Americans, will be multilingual.

reneritchie
06-21-2003, 04:09 PM
AD is incorrect, it only sounds that way to the horribly accented Torontonians who sound like Valley Girls meet the McKenzie bros., eh? We do have some strange words in Montreal, though, like depaneur (place for dependables) for 7/11 type places ;)

Alpha Dog
06-21-2003, 04:21 PM
Rene, what are you talking-guh about?

reneritchie
06-21-2003, 04:49 PM
Asking agayne, eh, hoser? ;)

Alpha Dog
06-21-2003, 05:52 PM
Xiah, right!

WCis4me
06-21-2003, 08:33 PM
Hey Rene,
Small world with the school and pierrefond.
Funny that you mention about the depaneur, I was telling Phil about them when we were at a 7-11 one day recently. Things are sooooooo different between QC and the rest of Canada.
BTW I spent so much time living in Vancouver and the rest of Canada, that I have no french accent left, except when I am not too pleased and I start speaking in french out of pure frustration. I don't like hockey or beer either.........I am a baaaaaaaaaaaaad Canadian, but I LOVE my country.

Regards,
Vicky

PS Bob and Doug rocked ya hoser!
The first day of Christmas my true love gave to me, A beer......in a tree.......lol.

Originally posted by reneritchie
AD is incorrect, it only sounds that way to the horribly accented Torontonians who sound like Valley Girls meet the McKenzie bros., eh? We do have some strange words in Montreal, though, like depaneur (place for dependables) for 7/11 type places ;)

Mr Punch
06-21-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Phil Redmond

The one from Shanghai "probably", (as I can't say for sure), spoke Shanghainese which is different from Cantonese. The one from Kuala Lumpur may or may have spoken Cantonese like in the city of Canton. And may have had influence from other Chinese or Indonesian. I have heard the difference between HKers using L in place of N in many words. Also, I can't see Cantonese as a dying language. Some people, unlike most of us Americans, will be multilengual. Yep, they were all multilingual, putting me to shame too!

The Shanghai one was teaching me Cantonese, but also spoke Mandarin and the Shanghai dialect. The Malaysian one spoke Mandarian, Cantonese, another Chinese language, Japanese, and Malay fluently, and had a **** good grasp of English!

Anyway, good luck with whichever spelling you choose... I hope it doesn't adversely affect your KF as some people seem to think it might!:D

reneritchie
06-22-2003, 12:42 PM
Vicky,

Have you explained to him about chalices, tabernacles, and the prefered method for use of other assorted religious terms in La belle province yet?

Of course, french isn't really that hard. I bet Phil would have no problem with "C'est le weekend, je veux en hotdog pour mon lunch!"

Phil Redmond
06-22-2003, 02:53 PM
Of course, french isn't really that hard. I bet Phil would have no problem with "C'est le weekend, je veux en hotdog pour mon lunch!"

It looks like NY Puerto Rican Spanglish. "Estan comiendo franks en el basement

Phil Redmond
06-22-2003, 02:56 PM
Anyway, good luck with whichever spelling you choose... I hope it doesn't adversely affect your KF as some people seem to think it might!

I agree.

Tom Kagan
06-22-2003, 06:47 PM
reneritchie,


Is Old Jong posting on this thread? Me, I'm a transplanted South African of Scotch/Irish and German ancestry ;) Parents named me Rene 'cause it was pretty rare in Jo'burg. Then they moved me here. Go figure.

Not that I think they spoke anything like Africaans in the Liangshan region back then anyway, ech man?

Moy Yat had American Indian grandparent. You know what that made a trilingual country boy born in Toisan who emigrated from Hong Kong to NYC? As he put it, "still a yellow dog." ;)

Mat,


All I'm trying to say is there are many dialects and provenances, many opinions, but that all languages always change, and while I am for preserving tradition, as languages change, traditions do too, and vice versa. Clinging to a dying language, trying to preserve it in a way that you fondly imagine someone used it at another time in another place, seems to me to be historical vanity, or maybe just historical pigheadedness!

I respect your thoughts. I guess Sifu using the juxtaposition of Ving Tsun folklore over a real incident was missed by most. Oh well - blame his editor. :o

Maybe I'll take 2nd stab at editing it one day. It's tough to take the notes Moy Yat wrote (usually on restaurant paper napkins) and separate the relevant from the chinglish doodle. If I can get his point across coherently without erasing the peculiar way he talked, I can only hope. :D

EnterTheWhip
06-22-2003, 09:33 PM
Tom Kagan's signature
Others walk the bow, I walk the string. So what happens if others walk the string?

yuanfen
06-22-2003, 09:34 PM
Tom on Moy Yat:Moy Yat had American Indian grandparent. You know what that made a trilingual country boy born in Toisan who emigrated from Hong Kong to NYC? As he put it, "still a yellow dog."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Curious about this Tom.... since you mention this---

American indian/ On which side?how so/ What tribe?
When you say tri lingual- do you mean Toishanese, mandarin and english?

Tom Kagan
06-23-2003, 08:27 AM
So what happens if others walk the string?

Isn't it obvious? They would be my brothers. Whether you are my brother, that is for you to decide alone; I am unable to answer that question for you.



"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother."

reneritchie
06-23-2003, 08:44 AM
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;

Not to not snow on Saint Crispins day, but round these parts, the Whedon version might hold truer:

"We few, we happy few--" Grabs sword and runs off to fight demented Hell god "--We band of buggered"

WCis4me
06-23-2003, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by reneritchie
Vicky,

Have you explained to him about chalices, tabernacles, and the prefered method for use of other assorted religious terms in La belle province yet?

Of course, french isn't really that hard. I bet Phil would have no problem with "C'est le weekend, je veux en hotdog pour mon lunch!"
Hi Rene,
LOL!!! Welllllll maaaaaayyyyybeee he has heard me refer to them from time to time but until your post he had NO clue what it meant.:D

Yes, he would have no trouble picking it up, when we watch anything french he can understand the bulk of it as he speaks several different dialects of Spanish, among a slew of other languages.

Regards,
Vicky

palanka
06-23-2003, 06:39 PM
.

william
04-05-2004, 03:30 AM
Hello People,

Excuse my ignorance, but could someone enlighten me as to what the differences are between Wing Chun, Wing Tsun and Ving Tsun (if there are any)?

Someone told me that they are just different ways of translating the name of the art from chinese.

I have also heard that they are slightly different styles.

If anyone has any info that would be great.

Cheers

W

jonp
04-05-2004, 04:42 AM
wing tsun is the only true art

anybody who says otherwise is a liar

mossman
04-05-2004, 05:11 AM
(ignore the one above me)

Main difference is attitude, as you can see.

jonp
04-05-2004, 05:36 AM
eheheh

'Main difference is attitude'

now that statement is almost as stupid as mine.

if you actually wanted to help the guy you could at least
have said something useful.

wing chun is the a popular romanisation for the art
ving tsun is another one
wingtsun is used only by one lineage - leung ting's

people like to claim that there are differences between them
mainly for marketing purposes.

there are some differences, mainly superficial, weighting of feet
emphasis on principles, differences in form.

'attitudes' and quality of instruction will vary from person to person not lineage to lineage

a little bit of research on the net will answer your questions
im sure....

PHILBERT
04-05-2004, 06:28 AM
As said above, Wing Tsun is only used by Leung Ting, and has a copyright on it.

Wing Chun is the most popular spelling of it.

Ving Tsun is how people in Hong Kong spell it. If you went to H.K. to where WSL use to teach, it says Ving Tsun on the sign.

Phil Redmond
04-05-2004, 11:38 AM
William,
There were different WC lineages
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/what/systems/index.html
before the Chinese began to use romanization. They had no need to because they wrote in Chinese. The way WC/WT/VT is written now is a new thing. The style of romanization used doesn't make one better than another. They're all pronounced Wing Chun in Cantonese proper.

KenWingJitsu
04-05-2004, 03:23 PM
we're all in the same pigeon toed gang.......

Phil Redmond
04-05-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
we're all in the same pigeon toed gang.......
I beg to differ Sir. No pigeon toes here......LOL

Da_Moose
04-06-2004, 06:44 AM
Wing Chun - Praising Spring

Weng Chun - Everlasting/Eternal Spring

Ving Tsun - Praising Spring; Hong Kong Spelling due to British English. Yip Man did not like being associated with Water Closets, so the spelling was changed for that reason. For those who don't know, a Water Closet is a restroom in British English.

Other combinations are marketing strategies used to make one look different from another or for other reasons.

The main difference though in the Romanization of the Chinese is so we can tell the difference between Praising & Everlasting. Sifu Redmond is correct that in Chinese no such spelling changes were needed due to semantical correlations/culture clashes.


Steve

Nick Forrer
04-06-2004, 08:28 AM
'a Water Closet is a restroom in British English.'

You mean English English surely;)

cha kuen
04-08-2004, 10:15 PM
all those dumb cats should learn how to write wing chun in chinese characters so that none of the new cats get done confused up in this piece "yo"

curtis
04-09-2004, 02:11 AM
Hello william
You have opened a can worms.
An un- biased opinion is what you need here.

What other people have said about the spelling, is true. that going from Chinese (actually a number a different dialects of Chinese) to English is rather troublesome.

But as I see it true difference is, the instructor. You see Yip Man only considered himself to be a sifu (not the only un-disputed grandmaster) when he died he never assigned a heir to the system. So after his death, a number of people all claims to be his predecessor.
The way I see it, since there can only be one grandmaster, each of these men chose a different way to advertise, by spelling and pronunciation of Wingchun from Chinese to English is a simple way justify the differences , Between each other.
Now Wingchun is an conceptual art. Each person who learns, modifies (or changes) the system according to their understanding of concepts, this to can also explained the vast differences between the arts. It's all in your point of view.
At least that's my point of view.
Sincerely. C.A.G.