physical strength of taiji?

[j-himself]

hiya,

first of all, i just wanted to let u all know that i dont practice any form of taiji or whatsoever. I'm interested in some of the taiji/qigong concepts though.
There was this one part in the book taiji for dummies where the author describes what he witnessed at a construction site in hong kong where this old man was carrying a massive objects on his back, I dont really remember the exact words since it was a while back ago i read it, but i think he said something like, the man wasn't very physically strong, but he sure understood the concepts of taiji.

now, to my question... what are these? can qi really help you to endure great physical exertion? I'm aware of hard qi gong, etc. but this isn't exactly the same...

i'd appreciate any comments
thanks

[Laughing Cow]

Qi is not something you use like a hammer.

Everybody has got Qi it is not something that you can switch on or off at will.

Also remember that Taiji is not Taijiquan, 2 VERY different things.

Cheers.

[j-himself]

what is the difference?
how would u differentiate the two? i just though, taiji was short for taiji quan

[scotty1]

Maybe through his taijiquan practice the guy was more aware of his posture, and that helped him carry a heavy weight.

But I'll bet he didn't get any kind of spooky strength from his 'qi', although breathing easily would obviously help him carry a heavy load.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by j-himself
what is the difference?
how would u differentiate the two? i just though, taiji was short for taiji quan

Tai Ji is a philosophical concept (Yin & Yang) coming from the I Ching.

Tai Ji quan( Great Polarity Fist) is a martial Art.

Most people shorten the name of Taijiquan to taiji, not realising that taiji has a completly different meaning.

Cheers.

[ZIM]

hiya.

LC is trying to get you to see that theres differences in the things you're asking. Some of them are linguistic, some philosophic, some categorical. So, Taijiquan is an art, qiqong is another thing, etc. although we all realize, i guess, that there's overlap involved.

I don't do TJQ myself, but here's a ? for you: what does the book say these concepts are? and also: have you tried lifting anything yourself while trying to figure it out?

Now i'll just leave you to LCs better info. :)

[Fu-Pow]

Tai Ji is a philosophical concept (Yin & Yang) coming from the I Ching.

Tai Ji or Great Polarity or Great Extremity or Great Pivot. It is a Daoist concept. You have to understand something about Taoism to understand this concept.

The "Tai Ji" of Tai Ji Chuan refers to the same thing ie they are the same characters as Tai Ji as in the Taoist philosophy.

That's why they call Tai Ji a Taoist martial art.

[Laughing Cow]

Agree with Fu Pow that Taijiquan uses the Tai ji concepts.

Not sure if I agree with him that this is what makes TJQ a taoist art.

[taijiquan_student]

Taijiquan isn't a daoist art. It has no historical connection to daoist practice. You can use the yin/yang theory with your taiji, or if you want to you can connect the 8 basic movements with the eight trigrams, but this doesn't make it a daoist art. Calling taijiquan an ancient daoist art is really just a marketing thing, because daoism seems to be very "in" these days.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There is a long history of Taoists and Tai Chi linking.. that, or many ancient texts have been to Marketing 101.. but, neither belongs to the other.. their complimentary philosophies are just another of the Universe's marvelous coincidences..

Tai Chi is a "way" of living, a philosophy closely approximating Taoist concepts.. Tai Chi Chuan, is a Martial Art based on these philosophies and insights..

ZIM
Yes, i (and my students) routinely approach specific tasks with the "intent" of finding Tai Chi (Chuan) within the task and effecting a positive result through the principles of Tai Chi (Chuan).. in the case of lifting.. posture, breath control, physical alignment, "intention", and conditioning (ie: expressing specific training principles such as spiral energy vs. circular vs. linear..) experiences are all brought to bear on the task and results are discussed to determine if there is a common theme to efficiency and effectiveness as applied to the task..

Be well, all..

[ZIM]

Yes, i (and my students) routinely approach specific tasks with the "intent" of finding Tai Chi (Chuan) within the task and effecting a positive result through the principles of Tai Chi (Chuan).. in the case of lifting.. posture, breath control, physical alignment, "intention", and conditioning (ie: expressing specific training principles such as spiral energy vs. circular vs. linear..) experiences are all brought to bear on the task and results are discussed to determine if there is a common theme to efficiency and effectiveness as applied to the task.. As it should be. NOTHING beats the doing.

[northernJump]

.
Taijiquan isn't a daoist art. It has no historical connection to daoist practice.
really ? that seems like a hard one to prove. One creation theory credits the introduction of internal work into chen family martial arts to Jiang fa - supposadly a taoist priest see http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg1.htm
of course there also other theories that contradict this so who can be sure.

Its much harder to eliminate indirect taoist influence on taiji quan since pretty much any qi related theory or practice has some connections to taoist theory - even
buddhist arts due the the intermingling of knowledge - both taoism and buddhism were influenced heavily by each other over the years.

[Laughing Cow]

northernjump.

Peter Lim simply mentions all the available origin stories, lots of what he lists there is full of holes/disputed and does not co-incide with what comes from the families.

Chen Village also has a LOT of influence fom the Shaolin Temple, where they practice internal sets, as well as other arts like Xing Yi, etc.

I agree that it has taoist influences (Jiang Fa/weak, etc.) but I would not call it a taoist art.

Some very similar concepts can also be found in other more southern arts.

I personally don't believe in the Chang Sang Feng origina theory, neither do I belive that Chen Wang Ting created TJQ perse.

The true history is a lot longer and involves more people than are publicly known.

Cheers.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Yes and if Jing-fa is a Taoist Priest that doesn't automatically qualify Taiji Quan as a Taoist art. I'm sure Jiang-fa used to empty his bowels, but that doesn't make taking a dump a Taoist art now does it???

[northernJump]

ok fair point. I'm curious though - what would be considered a taoist art and why ? somthing that has been studied continuously in taoist temples ? or somthing that subscribes to taoist cosmology or energy theories ?

Shaolin kung fu as practiced by shaolin monks would be considered a buddhist art but what about lay westerners practicing the same system ? are they practicing a buddhist art ?

[taijiquan_student]

If it was practiced by daoists. Daoists were initiated into a certain school or tradition, and practiced those methods. Unlike today, one couldn't read the Dao De Jing and proclaim that they were "a daoist".

Taking a dump isn't a daoist art, but I suppose that you could dump in a daoist fashion. There is a difference. Taijiquan isn't a daoist art, but it does contain the daoist theories of wuwei, yin/yang, bagua, etc. etc. However, none of that is reeeally too important for your taiji practice, unless you're fond of that kind of stuff. IE, you don't need to connect the 8 basic movements with the bagua, in terms of developing your taiji, but if you're so inclined, you certainly can.

[Laughing Cow]

For me for TJQ to become a Taoist art it needs to have been practised unbroken since it's inception at Taoist temples or by recorded taoist practicioners.

Today we still need to be able to go to the palce of origin and the art should look the same as taught commonly.

There was quiet a bit of sharing of ideas and values especilaly between Zen Buddhist and Taoist priest.

Some Shaolin Monks became Taoist priests in order to escape prosecution.

Chang Sang Feng is too disputed and too neat a history/lineage in my Opinion, plus what happened between the time he lived and the advent of TJQ in Chen village 200+ years later?

There are even disputes as to who softened the TJQ arts, Jiang Fa being the cental person(in most) but some claim he influenced YLC who softened the art.

But I think it is useless to speculate, when even so many different stories of YLC early life are abound and what he knew before and why he came to Chen village.

Cheers.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Sometimes i feel that we confuse Taoist philosophy with ritual Taoist religion.. they differ substantially.. Core Taoist philosophy would preclude Temples and religious trappings excepting the occasional meeting to share insights.. In his pivotal work, Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu never mentions religion of Tao, heirarchy of priests, or organized ritual for pursuit of Tao.. Ritual and religious practice developed to placate those indoctrinated by other such practices, to fit into the common metaphysical experience of the time.. Ultimately, the experience of Tao, the full awareness of it, is a deeply personal awakening that transcends the very words used to describe it (Chapter 1, Tao Te Ching)..

Is Tai Chi a Taoist Art, absolutely.. there is nothing that is not Tao.. Are we so devisive and predisposed to quibbling that we will conjure "rules" to define what is Taoist?.. apparently.. From the perspective of the Taoist, Tai Chi is a Taoist Art.. but, so is everything else.. That being said, i'm not sure how we got so far off track here..

Tai Chi (Chuan) utilizes physical strength.. to assert otherwise would be absurd.. its focus is the quality of that physical strength and the enhancement of it through cultivation and manipulation of the basic life-force, "Chi" (here, i sense we could substitute Tao for Chi but that would open another can of worms)..

Anyway, just another perspective.. Be well..

[Laughing Cow]

TaiChibob.

I fully agree.

Problem I see is that many peole here "Taoist" and see it as the "religion", same think when people hear "buddhism".

Not many westernres can get their mind round an idea that "Tao" can be religious and non-religious at the same time.

Look at the controvery alone when it comes to MA and religion, most people can't/won't see beyond what is written.

Same thing can be said for Chi/Qi and how it is perceived.

Just my perspective.

[Fu-Pow]

I would recommend you guys read Shambala guide to Taoism by Eva Wong. It clears up a lot about what we're talking about here.

First there are various branches of Taoism. Some which are "Magical" and linked to Shamanic practices in pre-historic China. Other branches closely resemble the Catholic church with priestly hierarchies and a pantheon of deities. There's a wide variety of what qualifies as Taoism.

The branch of Taoism that I'm referring to specifically is Internal Alchemical Taoism.

Taiji Chuan has connections to this branch of Taoism that deals with mental and physical training to refine the energy, health and function of the body.

This type of training involves meditation, Chi Gung postures and Taoist Calisthenics.

I believe that Chen Taiji Chuan is some form of Shaolin Kung Fu mixed with these Taoist calisthenics. So I would still classify it as a Taoist Martial art.

[taijiquan_student]

What I am talking about is alchemical daoism, not philosophical or religious daoism.

Bob, the "rules" I stated are only historical fact. You're right in a sense that "there is nothing that is not dao", but this is the same type of Western attitude that lets people read a book or two (or practice taiji) and claim that they are a daoist. If you want to do that that is fine, but my only point is that back in the day in China you wouldn't do that. In terms of internal alchemy daoism, you had to be initiated into a particular daoist tradition.

Is someone a priest because they read and enjoy the Bible?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Perhaps we differ in our perspectives.. Do you suppose that Lao Tzu was an "Alchemical Taoist"?.. Again, we discect and subdivide until the meaning is lost.. Mostly, Alchemical Taoists were occultists that borrowed Taoism's liberal views and widespread practice to add some level of validity to their pursuits.. Is it your assertion that one should avoid the Taoist label unless one is involved in Alchemical pursuits, or unless one has been initiated by some heirarchy of contrived Taoist noblemen..? We are what we are, if our philosophical beliefs are closely aligned with Taoist philosophical beliefs it doesn't matter what label we choose, our lives tell the tale..


but my only point is that back in the day in China you wouldn't do that. In terms of internal alchemy daoism, you had to be initiated into a particular daoist tradition.

There is no evidence that the greatest Taoist sages, or even the 8 immortals were engaged in any sort of organized Taoist system.. they saw the folly in that perspective..


Is someone a priest because they read and enjoy the Bible?

Is the message meant to be interpreted by intellectuals and stylized for mass consumption?.. i suggest not, both the Bible and the Tao Te Ching were meant to be personal communications for the individual.. i don't need to hear what someone else believes about the issues.. i need to hear them for myself and form my own opinions.. Priests, legislators, religions, governments.. intermediaries acting on our behalf.. under the assumption we are not capable to do so ourselves.. and, as long as we relinquish or freedom of choice to them, they are correct..

oops, i'll get off my soap-box now.. Be well..

[taijiquan_student]

Well, some of your last paragraph opens a whole new can of worms, which we probably shouldn't get into. Also, I basically agree with what you say. All I'll say is that you may not agree with the fundamental idea of a priest, but that has nothing to do with someone reading the bible and claiming to be one. Same thing with reading laozi and the Yi Jing and claiming to be a daoist. Do you have a daoist name? That's a good way to see if someone is really a daoist. In ancient China, daoists would have a separate daoist name that was given to them, having to do with their lineage.

I think that laozi would fall under the category of "philosophical daoism". He didn't live at a temple or practice a specific daoist alchemy method (that we know of, of course). I'm not arguing the validity of having these divisions, just stating that these are sections that daoism has commonly been divided into. There is a huge difference between internal alchemy and religious daoist practices, but often they were mixed together in the temples (Huashan, for ex.). Some traditions remain purely alchemical, and then you have the daoist sages who seemed to just wander around the mountains and the country relishing in the dao. I don't think we really know what their deal was. What was their practice? I find it hard to believe that they got to their high level purely by wandering, so they must have had some sort of practice. Where did they get it from? Maybe at one time they practiced in a temple and then later in life they left the community to wander. Who knows?

I am not arguing for many subdivions, or for being "initiated by some heirarchy of contrived Taoist noblemen". However, there was more hierarchy in the old daoist world than we might like to think. I think also, that taichibob is coming more from the perspective of (to once again use the subdivisions) philosophical daoism, and I'm more talking about internal alchemical daoism, so maybe we aren't quite on the same page topic-wise.