Martial sports: Clear this up for me.

[rogue]

I've been noticing a difference between the ideal and reality.

Boxers don't chamber at the hip and don't drop their guards.
I've been watching a lot of semi-pro fights and I constantly see boxers throwing their power shots from the hip, using the same mechanics as a karateka does. What gives? According to many modern realistic swami's this just can't be.
I've also noticed that for most of the fight most boxers rarely kept their hands up past their chest, once again keeping them at the same level and almost the same hand position as a karateka.
Sometimes they'd even be hanging down like a sport TKD guy and then winging in big hooks. I also didn't see anybody using the recommended cover against the hook to the head.

[KC Elbows]

Chambers sometimes also represent arm bars and grabs like that. I think the whole anti-chambering thing is an overreaction to people chambering by rote, instead of knowing why they are doing what they are doing. Kind of like kung fu guys who take unusual guards just to "look kung fu", like the old photos of the tai chi guys who faught the muay thai boxers- sure, they're holding tai chi poses, but the poses are meaningless without an opponent that is doing something that they relate to.

I mean, chambering all the time is dumb, but there's no way to actually always keep your hands in front of you except by being too static. Eventually, you have to move somewhere.

[Merryprankster]

I've been watching a lot of semi-pro fights and I constantly see boxers throwing their power shots from the hip, using the same mechanics as a karateka does. What gives? According to many modern realistic swami's this just can't be.

I've also noticed that for most of the fight most boxers rarely kept their hands up past their chest, once again keeping them at the same level and almost the same hand position as a karateka.

This is true. Many boxers do throw shots from the hip, including the jab (not just power shots). There are many reasons for this. Some people feel they move better with their hands at their hips and use their head movement to slip shots. Others are just so **** fast it doesn't matter (See RJJ). They also usually get *****ed out by the corner for doing it, LOL! :D

Seriously though, most of the guys that do this have great foot work, good head movement and great handspeed. They're slick and quick with good reach, and fight from the outside. Guys like tyson and holyfield who have to infight due to height/reach issues almost always keep their hands up. If you have to come in, your gloves usually come up because it's too crowded. Boxers are taught to keep their hands up, but some people can get away with not doing it that way, and obviously do.


Sometimes they'd even be hanging down like a sport TKD guy and then winging in big hooks.

This is one of those nice variable issues. If it works, or you think it can work, what the hell? I have a friend who says "if it was stupid and it works, then it wasn't stupid, right then." Sometimes, catching somebody by surprise is cool.


I also didn't see anybody using the recommended cover against the hook to the head.

Issue of style. I do guarentee they weren't just standing there, eating hooks, right?

[chen zhen]

I've seen old pictures of savate, where they actually chamber one of their hands at the side of the hip, like karateka's or kung-fu people. I just thought that would have relevance..:rolleyes:

here's a pic, the guy on the left does it, but there's better pics depicting it, I'll find some tomorrow.

[fa_jing]

I think hands up is better. But some people shoot their hand up from down there because the motion begins out of the line of the opponent's direct vision. Especially if the opponent keeps their hands up and in the middle, like you're supposed to. These punches can definitely land.

[rogue]

Issue of style. I do guarentee they weren't just standing there, eating hooks, right? Not eating them but they made a nice midnight snack of them.:) I was amazed by how many landed. One girl, a rookie, was trading shots and made the mistake of stopping and putting up a picture perfect high guard. This was a mistake because her opponent was still throwing shots and hit her good. It was like it dawned on her that what she was doing was incorrect even though she was doing OK.
BTW It's the fights on FoxSports and they're usually the lower rungs of the pro-ladder.


Chambers sometimes also represent arm bars and grabs like that. I agree but think that many karateka also do it by rote just like you said. I think the chamber, as practiced by many karate schools, is mostly a power shot after the block.


I think hands up is better. I've noticed that many boxers keep their lead hand up chin or cheek height and the other around solar plexus height. This is another guard right from karate. Now with all the things that are common between boxing and karate, karateka have no real excuse for being so-so fighters except their training.

Kind of a sub topic:
Another thing that a friend who does Muay Thai pointed out to me is how he doesn't shin block automatically and only as a last resort, and when he does it's with the muscle that runs up the front of his shin under the knee not the bone. I'm going to take his word for it since he has a pretty good fight record. But yet I see people talking up the lose sensitivity in their shin without dicussing developing that muscle in the shin. Has anybody else come across this?
The style of blocking with that shin muscle made sense to me as one karate teacher I have has me use the muscle found between the ulna and radial bone to block and my other teacher has me use either open hand or the forearm muscle to block. Many karate people block by using their radius or ulna bones which often results in bone on bone collisions. Ouch!:eek: Good blocking (http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/motobu2_4.jpg)

Anybody else come across any accepted common wisdom that is either missing in detail or just plain bad?

[Suntzu]

Sometimes hands just get heavy and the guard drops… some do have a karate background and habits are hard to break…

[Knifefighter]

Boxers know that they really don't want to bring their hands down, although it does happen due to fatigue, during an exchange of combinations, or to bring in extra power. Almost all boxers will tell you this is usually a lapse in thier technique when this happens. Chambering the hand is something no boxer aspires to do on purpose.

Karateka, on the other hand, believe they are supposed to have the hand chambered.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

hands up is good ... it's where i usually have mine. but then again if you go against me i'm going for body shots cause of my height and tendency to take lower stances.

on the shin on shin thing ... if you co ck your leg right .. and put a little upward vector in your kick ... you can kick to the muscle on the inside of their leg with your instep or shin. this avoids bone on bone and hurts like hell. it take some getting used to and its got to be done fairly perceise though.

[Chang Style Novice]

I met a guy who's a trainer for a boxing gym near my house this morning on the bus. I had no idea it was there. He was giving this girl his card and trying to mack on her. I felt bad c0ck-blocking by asking for a card, too, but I figure if I show up for a training session he'll have plenty of chance to take it out on me.

It's certainly something worth considering. I usually have one hand up and one hand down when I approach an opponent, and try to keep my elbows in to cover my ribs. But that's because I'm used to being able to grab and be grabbed as well as punch and be punched (although I'm a LOT more used to the grabbing.) I suppose it's concievable that a karateka ready stance might have some grappling applications in mind as well, while there's no reason a boxer's ready stance would account for such a thing.

[dezhen2001]

have fun training if you go CSN :D

thats an interesting idea guys - but i know when i did boxing i found my karate training to be a real hinderance mostly. But i can see what you mean abut the guard and stuff.

dawood

[norther practitioner]

When you see some guys throw power punches with there back hand, aren't they dropping there hand a bit before they throw the punch... or is it just the way it seems b/c of the beginning of the movement comes with the twisting of the body?

[rogue]

Boxers know that they really don't want to bring their hands down, although it does happen due to fatigue, during an exchange of combinations, or to bring in extra power. Agreed, but it also just might be a natural way to punch and what people will revert to under stress. Especially since these guys are at the lower rung of pro-boxing. I guess the reasons for it happening are numerous and to the fighter seems pretty good at that moment.


Chambering the hand is something no boxer aspires to do on purpose. But it happens and as someone else said they'll hear about it from their corner.


Karateka, on the other hand, believe they are supposed to have the hand chambered. Change that to many karateka. It's sad but true, many are taught this as gospel.