It started as a troll, but...

[ZIM]

Sure it was a joke. This thread. (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=345136#post345136) Sorry to ask you to slog through it.

But it lead to an interesting and generally ignored facet of TCM. I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts on it as a situation in TCM or KF, or ideas where info on TCM bonesetting and stuff, is?

TIA

[bodhitree]

Good question Zim.

[ZIM]

I'll give the silence the benefit of the doubt...nobody wanted to slog through a trolling post. No problem, I'll sum it up for you:

-How come an average KF TCM guy is NOT like a good corner-man in Boxing? Why is it that most of what we hear about in TCM theoretical and not practical in the main?

-Historically, most TCM doctors were MAs and the vice versa as well. They were THE ones to go to in those days, for anything- but especially for traumatic injuries like knockouts, broken bones, dislocations, seizures, etc.

Sometimes, I get the suspicion that we've been sorely mislead. The heart 'line' for instance *might* be the actual path for re-setting a bone..."here's where you hold one end, here's where you tug the other. Watch for the heart rate to make sure you got it right."

But we don't know. Somebody might. I think that, while much of it is probably common to western medicine as well, there is also some spin and some real knowledge being lost. Why aren't we worried about that? Why are we satisfied with dit da jow for everything?

-Where did the practical side of TCM go? Acupuncture is nice, but what about traumatic medicine? At least for historical interest?

[TonyM.]

(Adjusts downrigger ball and sets planer boards and quick releases)
I think most people learn at schools that are run by people that were mostly outside students.

[ZIM]

Now thats puzzling to me.

There's all kinds of info on the obscurities of this or that movement... all kinds of info on cycling energies and health maintenance. Some see it as the highest expression of TCM.

You'd think that, since the applications of any technique, the fighting, is so... looked down on [i guess] as the 'lower' aspects of any given art, that knowing how to fix a simple or compound fracture would be necessary. Even especially so for the 'plebes' who just want to beat ppl up.

I'm not speaking of super secretive dim mak-ky stuff, just 'ordinary' traumatic injury treatment. The stuff that you send ppl to a western hospital for nowadays. Why shouldn't we know how to fix what we can break?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

My KF training has been under a Temple raised G'Master from China.. He says that in the past, those same skills you speak of were essential.. that in battles between warring camps the injured/wounded had to treated and sent back to the battle, the skill of the physicians often determined the outcome of long battles.. His own training included such instruction and he is skilled at "repair and return to battle" type treatments.. that is not always synonymous with good healing, but it satisfies a need.. As senior students we received a certain level of this training, not as formal class but as watching and occasionally helping as he repaired other students or ourselves.. i have even been privy to some of his potions and plasters (whew!! stinky!!)

Another close friend and local Sifu is also a licensed Accupuncturist, Herbologist, and TCM practicioner and you echo his Mantra.. "Balance and Tao insist that if you learn to hurt you must also learn to heal".. Though i am nowhere near his skill, i pass on all the knowledge i have received in this matter and continually strive to expand my knowledge base.. in fact, as my schedule permits i intend to attend some formal training in this field..

Be well, ZIM.. and thanks for the insightful inquiries..

[ZIM]

Heck yes, TCB. The 'return to battle' stuff. Not really elegant, but eminently practical. TCM EMTs

Its amazing to me that this is apparently being lost and nobody seems worried about that. Sure, it might be outdated, but still, not even an article??? I mean, I've read articles on removing cannonballs circa Civil War, treating sabre wounds, etc.

I looked it up on the internet. Nothing. :( How puzzling and sad. If the attitude really is one of elitism and secrecy, then this is even more sad; the subject is nothing a 1st year nursing student would not know about.

Maybe a greater emphasis on teaching/preserving this aspect would go a long way towards improving the character of the wider society of MAs... that responsibility to fix what you break. [I mean this as a way to teach moral responsibility, not that MAs are 'of low character'. I had to type that 3 times...:rolleyes:]

[WanderingMonk]

Hey Zim,

So you are interested in the TCM on patching injuries and couldn't find any info on the web. How good is your chinese?

I dug this out of my bookmark, may be you will find it useful. The caveat is that it is in chinese.

http://big5.shaolin.org.cn/asp/lec_article.asp?PageID=1&ChapterID=667&BookID=37

wm

[ZIM]

No chinese, can't get online translators to work on it either. :( Too bad- it looked like it had some interesting information, from what little would translate...

[Jack Squat]

Hello all.

My 2 cents-

I feel that the reason TCM doc's aren't used for acute trauma is due to the nature of our society. That field is presently owned by Western medicine, and they generally do a good job with it. With our sue-happy society, no TCM doc in his right mind would attempt to take acute trauma into his/her scope of practice. If a TCM doc was in the area of a serious acute trauma and did not activate the EMS system, he/she would be in a malpractice situation (now that I think of it, so would the average GP).

If it ain't broke, don't fix it......
Western Medicine is best for acute trauma, however, once the patient is medically stabilized, then use TCM to initiate the healing process. With TCM, healing time is shorter (once out of the crisis stage) and the person has a lessoned risk or re-injury. Thats how I see it.

As a AP, if I am teaching a KF class, and a student gets injured (I mean a nose break or something more serious than a minor ankle sprain), I will transport to the local ER. This is not just for liability, it's just proper medical procedure. Once discharged, the student can come and see me for TCM rehab.

TCB-
I agree with the battlefield analogy. Good perspective.
In addition, it seems we have a mutual friend.......

Jack

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Agreed, the legal issues are prohibitive for TCM practicioners.. additionally, there seems to be a mutually exclusive attitude among the East/West camps.. My own perspective, and, reading between the lines yours too, is that there is a middle ground.. a place where both modalities could raise healthcare to a new level of competence and effectiveness.. The sooner we look at the commonalities and the effects of the healing rather than the size of bank accounts the better off society would be.. Like the man dying of thirst, the water is more important that the beliefs of the bearer..

Most likely we do have a mutual friend, Tom.. A fortunate resource for our local CMA community.. Do you train with Tom? Anyway, the Central Florida area is blessed with a rich diversity of MA/CMA resources and i hope we can keep the harmony stable. I have had two meetings of the "Central Florida Tai Chi Club" and it has been very interesting (read into that what you will :), as you may know, there are some interesting local personalities).. We meet on the last Saturday of the month at the Sage Center.. PM me if you are interested..

Be well..