Funakoshi's art was just an imitation karate, not much more than a dance.

[rogue]

Nice history of Choki Motobu (http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articlec.htm) Just learning about this guy.

http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/motobu1_2.jpg

[Surferdude]

That dude said that cuz he was mad at Master Funakoshi!!!:mad:
Besides Karate that was practiced by almost all of these masters was a means of self defense, Not something to go around and beat the crap out of people, or wanting to get into fights.

Master Funakoshi also, i think had titles that Motubu didnt have, Besides if you took the time to study Shotokan Karate you would understand that its definetly not a dance.

[Mr Punch]

Relax, Sdude, Rogue is just researching the history of his art...!:D:D:p

[rogue]

Besides Karate that was practiced by almost all of these masters was a means of self defense, Not something to go around and beat the crap out of people, or wanting to get into fights. No offense surfer but that's a cop out. The techniques I use for self defense better be as practical as the techniques someone uses to beat the crap out of people. A problem that still plagues karate are techniques that were changed from being practical to look more acceptable to the Japanese.


Master Funakoshi also, i think had titles that Motubu didnt have, Besides if you took the time to study Shotokan Karate you would understand that its definetly not a dance. Great let's discuss the bunkai oyo of some of them. Glad to see people like Schmeisser and Harry Cook trying to make heads or tails out of Shotokans kata and move them from dance to something usefull. BTW My main art is TKD that still has a large section of Shotokan kata in it. I'm trying to move from dance myself.

[Chang Style Novice]

There's nothing wrong with dancing. It's just not very effective for self defense or beating the tar out of people.

[count]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
There's nothing wrong with dancing. It's just not very effective for self defense or beating the tar out of people.
I disagree. If you don't believe me have a look at this video clip. (http://next-horizons.com/martialarts/tj-day-03.wmv) :D

[rogue]

There for you can't do it exactly like the set... Something to remember when trying to make the "dancing" of any art practical. :)

Gene Kelly did a wonderful short film titled, "Dancing: A Man’s Game" where he showed how moves in sports are almost the same as moves in dance. But that said I don't think Kelly could go head to head with Micky Mantle or Sugar Ray Robinson in their sports.


Football isn't a contact sport; it's a collision sport. Dancing is a contact sport. --Vince Lombardi

Count, were you in that vid?

[Liokault]

The link to Choki Motobu with the picture at the top......can anyone say HYPER EXTEND the elbow.



Are "we" ment to be looking up to thease guys as role models?

[rogue]

Liokault, it's a posed shot for something, he's barely touching the padding of the makiwara.

You look up to who you please. Motobu was a bad ass and a fighter like some of the old CMA masters. His fighting style seems to be pretty real world, very much infighting from some of the photos that I looked at. In my opinion he shows a side of karate that many want to sweep under the rug, an art based on fighting and not self improvement.

Pic (http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/motobu2_4.jpg)

[Liokault]

Hes a guy I have read about before and my main problem with him being counted as a great karate guy is that I dont belive that he really did karate.

To me he looks like a guy who gets into a lot of fights, trains with weights, hits a makiwara and gets into more fights........hes a very good street fighter not a karate ka. Now theres nothing wrong with this in my view but lets call a spade a spade.

[Budokan]

Some traditional karate moves have been hidden in Okinawan folk dance as a way to mislead their Japanese overlords. But shotokan in and of itself ain't dance.

Anyone who thinks otherwise, or believes karate is ineffective because it's a "dance" is more than welcome to come by and see Budokan do a shotokan dance on their spleen...

[Surferdude]

Besides in that pic of Motobu you posted, his blocking arm is too high!!!:D :p So Hahahaha I win!!!:p :p :D

[Liokault]

Budokan

Do you think that your art as it is now in any way looks like the art taught by Funakoshi?

From what I have read in the past none of the things listed below have anything to do with the art as taught by Funakoshi in Japan.

Sparring

High kicks

Combinations

Competitions

Possibly 1 step sparring.


Funakoshi was big on such things as:


Standing in lines for hours drilling

Kata

The concept that self discipline improves your life.





I am prepared to bet that no one trains like Funakoshi (taught) today.

[yuanfen]

Bet? Sensei Koyama a protege of the late Nakayama who was a protege of Funakoshi still does in Phoenix Arizona.

[rogue]

I'm surprised at the sensitivity from my Shotokan cousins. Remember my main art is TKD so I'm at least a first cousin to you all but a step even further away from what the arts core was.


Some traditional karate moves have been hidden in Okinawan folk dance as a way to mislead their Japanese overlords. But shotokan in and of itself ain't dance.Not sure about the first sentence but I agree with the second as long as there is thought behind the kata and training.


Besides in that pic of Motobu you posted, his blocking arm is too high!!! How so? It's the same block I use in Isshinryu. Sometimes I block even higher if I'm going to wrap the arm.


Hes a guy I have read about before and my main problem with him being counted as a great karate guy is that I dont belive that he really did karate.
To me he looks like a guy who gets into a lot of fights, trains with weights, hits a makiwara and gets into more fightsSounds like a karateka to me. Hell, sounds like several in their younger days that I know. Or is karate a bunch of out of shape people punching air while marching up and down the dojo hoping to become a better person?

This may raise your hackles, but here's a Link to a Shotokan book by Harry Cook. (http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Shotokan/Pages/Shobooks.htm)

[rogue]

Liokault, I just read your profile "Current under 80kg UK san shou champ.....". Did you get there by standing in line for hours drilling,
doing the long form, and making sure self discipline improved your life? Or did you Spar, work combinations, enter competitions and possibly do 1 step sparring to work on specific techniques? You and Motobu may have somethings in common.
:)

['MegaPoint]

Rogue,

My brother. You are right about a lot of your assertions. Most karate nowadays is nothing more than mediocre self-defense and tourney oriented sport.

Shotokan, or any antecedent of Shuri Te (this include Tang Soo Do and TKD), are pale reflections of their father system- Shorin Ryu. You know this, being a multifaceted karate-ka and TKD bad-arse. Now at one time Funakoshi's "art" was very "jutsu" oriented. Hence the name of his seminal publication "Karate Jutsu". He states over and over that karate or "toudi jutsu" as practiced in Okinawa was only for one purpose: self-preservation. Forget the conscious attention to self-cultivation. They knew that came with good bujutsu training.

His second publication "Karate-Do Kyohan" changed this "intent". He wanted a modern Budo (as opposed to Bujutsu) that was comparable to Kano's Judo. You know the story so I'll spare the rest of the details. If you read his first book you could see how he was already looking to change karate for the Japanese and world populace.

Choki Motobu was more than a street fighter. Although he was refused instruction by certain masters, he did learn how to use what he learned from other sensei to apply the infighting methods of Naihanchi to street fighting. He was a very good karate-ka. IMHO he was much more proficient and knowledgeable about real fighting and bunkai of kata than Funakoshi.

Shotokan is sportified Shorin with some Goju elements. 80% or more is modified ShuriTe (Shorin), though. We have so many Shotokan and Tang Soo Do converts at the dojo I train, and they will tell you the difference in a second. Believe me they are significant. All of the converts were Nidans or higher too, so that tells you something.

Still, I like Shotokan and Kyokushinkai out of all the Japanese styles the best. They are really Goho (external/hard) and rely a lot on linear movement and speed. They are missing many old Okinawan "secrets", but all you have to do is supplement your JMA with a TOMA (Okinawan). It will only help!

You can do Shorin Ryu Kobayashi, Matsumura Seito, Shorinji Ryu or Shobayashi Shorin. Isshin and Uechi are good too. Bye all...

[rogue]

Been waiting for you 'Mega, figured you'd set me straight or add something good. :)

Karate Jutsu, love that book, almost the rosetta stone for Shotokan. That's a must have book though it lacks details, which is typical Funakoshi.

I'm lucky that my TKD master kept many of the Japanese kata like the Tekki in his kwan, it's made things easier when trying to figure things out by moving back up the lineage trail. I also know a few TKD and Shotokan people who "graduated up" to Okinawan styles. None says anything bad about their previous training but it was the logical next step for them. For me the TKD gets me 80% to where I'm going, the karate gets me another 10% since I don't get to study too often with my instructor. but that 10% is so very important and fills in the details.

I just liked the Motobu quote, figured it'd get some good dialog going. Anyway all arts need a Choki Motobu, at least in my opinion. Have you seen any Wado-ryu?


You know this, being a multifaceted karate-ka and TKD bad-arse. Maybe that's me in an alternate reality but not this one.:D

How's med school going?

These tax returns are finally finished printing and I need sleep, G'night.

[Liokault]

Rouge

You miss my point. He didnt "train" in any very real way in karate and if we are going to call him a karate master we must equaly call other thuggs masters also.

To restate my point I agree that Choki Motobu was a very good fighter indeed but I feel that it had nothing to do with the minimal maount of karate he knew and every thing to do with getting into random fights though out his life.

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Bet? Sensei Koyama a protege of the late Nakayama who was a protege of Funakoshi still does in Phoenix Arizona.
I trained with Sensei Koyama!!! and he does do a pretty **** good job at teaching the original art. So does my sensei... sensei Rielly!!!:D :p
You see, not all of karate is now high kicks competiton and all that ****, some schools are, thats why they're McDojos!:D
But doing TKD dont you do all that stuff?:confused:
High kicks, Competion, do you waer all of those dumb head and foot gear?

[Stacey]

at its very best its harder, basic shaolin.....and its rarely at its very best.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by Stacey
at its very best its harder, basic shaolin.....and its rarely at its very best.

Stacey Master of Wu Shu, I would say that most Shotokan BBs would wax a modern Shaolin exponent. What they do is closer to old school Southern Shaolin than all the Wu Shu out there. Basics are the reason for arts that are successful in the street. Just ask a GJJ guy how important kihon (basics) are.

I like Shotokan and it is better than Wado Ryu, Rogue- IMHO. Kyokushinkai, Shotokan, Shorinji Kempo, S hito Ryu, Japanese Goju then Wado. I would have Wado rated higher but Ohtsuka was trying to reinvent the wheel. The JJJ principles he adopted to "polish-up" the Shotokan he learned from Funakoshi were already there in the Okinawan styles. It's called ti/tuite/gyakute/tegumi whatever. I hate all this making karate "truly Japanese" BS.

BTW the Tiger Brigade in 'Nam: those cats did real TKD. Are there any of those guys around teaching nowadays? My sensei still raves about the "karate" they did and how close it was to Matsmura Seito and other Shorin styles.

Good thread hope the Chuan Fa guys aren't mad atcha for talking about karate. It is all Chinese after all (via Egypt).

[rogue]

BTW the Tiger Brigade in 'Nam: those cats did real TKD. Are there any of those guys around teaching nowadays? I'll double check with my Sah bum nim next time I see him, I think he had contact with them. I've been trying to find reliable info on what they used and who they learned from. I've also heard about a name change for what the Korean SpecOps guys used for H2H. It may be the old TKD, may be something else altogether. The TB had something going though.


But doing TKD dont you do all that stuff?
High kicks, Competion, do you waer all of those dumb head and foot gear? Surferdude, You have to remember that almost all the early TKD guys were karateka, usually Shotokan. In the early days of TKD they used Shotokan kata, Shotokan training methods, and Shotokan techniques. For all intents and purposes it was Korean karate. When things started to change not all of the TKD folk followed in lockstep. Some added parts of the Chon Ji set (like us) but still kept the Japanese kata and style. Our school has baffled Shotokan guys because we look similar to Shotokan but most of our kata is different. We've also baffled some ITF guys because the hyung are the same but we move smooth and direct without the bounce and swings that they do. It's kind of fun to train with them. :)
Anyways, we can use high kicks if we want to do them but they're not a real part of our kwan, we can compete if we want but it's on our own and finally we wear a cup, mouth guard, gi and that's about it during sparring which is about moderate to heavy moderate intensity.

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by rogue

Surferdude, You have to remember that almost all the early TKD guys were karateka, usually Shotokan. In the early days of TKD they used Shotokan kata, Shotokan training methods, and Shotokan techniques. For all intents and purposes it was Korean karate. When things started to change not all of the TKD folk followed in lockstep. Some added parts of the Chon Ji set (like us) but still kept the Japanese kata and style. Our school has baffled Shotokan guys because we look similar to Shotokan but most of our kata is different. We've also baffled some ITF guys because the hyung are the same but we move smooth and direct without the bounce and swings that they do. It's kind of fun to train with them. :)
Anyways, we can use high kicks if we want to do them but they're not a real part of our kwan, we can compete if we want but it's on our own and finally we wear a cup, mouth guard, gi and that's about it during sparring which is about moderate to heavy moderate intensity.

Nice:D

[rogue]

Thanks. Let me clarify that striking to the head is discouraged during sparring, but you can tap or slap on the noggin if your opponent keeps dropping his guard. We practice a form of sparring that doesn't replicate the real world but still lets the fighters go home with some excellent injuries!:D

[Black Jack]

Rogue,

I think those old Korean ROK marines used a form of military hand to hand called Tukong Moosul. I would bet a mix of stripped down tkd, hapkido, korean judo, and silent kill/sentry removal methods.

[rogue]

You may be right BJ, maybe they just called it TKD. But there is a difference between the old karate style TKD and what is now TKD. Sometimes it's hard to figure out what Koreans are doing since they just love to revise their martial history.;)