significance of yee jee kim yiu ma [Archive]

Phenix

06-22-2003, 09:50 AM

Since it is significance,

What is a YJKYM?
In detail how it works?
In detail how its structure has to be?
In detail how the weight suppose to be?
In detail how the stance or post related to the hand technics?

Be detail and specifics....

Otherwise, it is just a snake oil. Take by faith. Stand there as long as possible but get no where.
Saying it is better but better for what? doesn't make sense in TCM and doesn't make sense in western medicine research....
Never heard a YJKYM guy uproot anyone but the Zhang Zhuang guy always uproot others......

Hahahaha I play the dark side guy now. if you can't answer the above, than YJKYM is just a Mantra and has no meaning. Mantra like OHM OHM OHM.... (noticed not OM) So, it has no content and no meaning and nothing.
:D

----------------------

Darth Vader was a Jedi but hated Jedi because Jedi is full of ego and the non sense call faith or the force be with you religion.

Darth believe in clones, the clones which strecth across the horizon. High Quality Clone.

as for Jedi?
Ha hahahaha, can't even produce a great one over 100 years. Say, there is Anaki, that is Darth vaders, there is luke, that is the son of Darth....
and the great one all switches to the dark side... --- and the saga continous.....:D:D

EnterTheWhip

06-22-2003, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
Saying it is better but better on what?
1) Nobody wrote that it was better.

2) I don't think every thread needs to get into that much detail. Those details are what have lead us into lineage debate (which does what how), maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow....

The question is how is it significant to you and your training, not how do you do it?

old jong

06-22-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I agree.

Also, the significance of YGKYM does not have to manifest in its most obvious form/structure. The beauty of it is that its essence exists in all stances.

1000% correct

Phenix

06-22-2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I don't think every thread needs to get into that much detail. Those details are what have lead us into lineage debate (which does what how), maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow....

The question is how is it significant to you and your training, not how do you do it?

Hey, have some fun. why so serious.:D

I disagree with you about details are what have lead us into lineage debate.

Physics is Physics. Biology is biology. TCM is TCM. There is no label which University they are from. and disregard of University. Physics is Physics.

Honestly, I think the so called POPULAR THINKING has slow down the progress of WCK. Keeping thinking this way. Everyone will end up in thier own box. and the worst is clear direction and clear expectation can be substitute with Name or the HIs story. IMHO.

See, everyone can do differently, and it is certainly acceptable.
And certainly, what we need to look for is the Pro and Con of what each lineage do. The Goal and the expectation and what are we trying to achieve.

So, there is not about lineage debate. But, the pro and con discussion and positive expectation.. discussion .And, IMHO, only and only when we all knows the Pro and con of ourself. Then we all progress. I know it is not easy. But, can we still accept " do this 10years and you will be great? or I learn this from Red Junk. it is the best keep secret?" when we know we lost right and left to BJJ or Mua Thai? In my amplified opinion. So what is reality are we facing? Somedays, when the YJKYM cannot provide provide or satisfied one on health or application. One will abandon it. If we not looking into it now from every angle...... that day will come. Why do you think Bruce Lee did what he did? Why do you think people starts to import the Hung Gar iron wire set's YJKYM into SLT? Why do you think people will substitude SanChin Stance later in the history. Why do you think people will substitude Zhang Zhuang later in the history to come? Because the search of YJKYM has begun and no one provides a satisfaction anwer yet. and YJKYM has become a myth. So, what is the highest level YJKYM can lead one to achive? And who has achieve that in the history? IMHO

Hey, back to more humor. Don't take it so serious.
I am just playing Darth Vaders or the bad guy today:D

EnterTheWhip

06-22-2003, 10:08 AM

You've missed the whole point.

Phenix

06-22-2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
You've missed the whole point.

YUp. I am and I agree. I miss the point.
Because I am purposely looking at different angle. :D

But where is the beef? OK from Mcdonald, Burger king, Hardees..... we cannot call Hambuger a vegi-buger right?
and it is ok to Accept MAcdonald, Burger King......

flaco

06-22-2003, 10:22 AM

ygkym is a very natural stance for fighting, some styles have toes in, others dont. it is a very natuaral stance, unlike wide horse stances, cat stances,etc.
the triangle shape, is the most sturdy structrure,and very adaptable, the toes to the groin form the lower triangle, and the shoulders to the groin form the upper triangle, these triangles are locked together by tilting the hips up.without the hips locked, and the tailbone dropped, theres is a weakness in the structure, if its done right, its a very stable stance, you can easily move forward , back, sided to side, etc, the stance is very mobile.
snt is a qi gong set, and a libraty of techniques, the triangles lock, and this is the beginning of trying to allow the qi to circulate up the du meridian, and down the ren, this is simply training proper posture, for optimum health, and relaxation in the form.
san ti stance in xing i is very simialr to ygkym, the principles of what makes it a good stance, is mobility, strength, and structure, ygkym, is of great value, especially for a weaker opponent against a bigger opponent, for big strong guys, they often can get away without ygkym in reality, unless facing a high skilled opponent

Phenix

06-22-2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by flaco
ygkym is a very natural stance for fighting, some styles have toes in, others dont. it is a very natuaral stance, unlike wide horse stances, cat stances,etc.
.........ygkym in reality, unless facing a high skilled opponent

Great! instead say OMM to the GURU. Let's post what one think!
Nothing right nothing wrong....... time to walk out the popular thinking and the box thinking.....

old jong

06-22-2003, 10:52 AM

Nothing mystical here!
If Wing Chun was a car,YJKYM would be it's suspension system.Everybody knows how a well tuned suspension can be beneficial to road handling. ;)

Phenix

06-22-2003, 11:01 AM

Is it Automatic 4 wheel drive? or manual 4 wheel drive? or all time 4 wheel.....

old jong

06-22-2003, 12:00 PM

The transmission is an other subject!...;) :D

Alpha Dog

06-22-2003, 12:22 PM

I find it teaches you awareness of the bones, muscles and ligaments that make up the feet, legs and joints, and also of your balance. So, even when you are "out of your stance" you still feel it.

yylee

06-22-2003, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Phenix

come. Why do you think Bruce Lee did what he did?

I don't think uncle Bruce enjoys standing in YJKYM, he'd rather stand in Siu Sai Ping. May be it has something to do with his long-short leg, or may be flat feet? May be he was too hyper a guy to be grounded in one spot?

Why do you think people starts to import the Hung Gar iron wire set's YJKYM into SLT? Why do you think people will substitude SanChin Stance later in the history. Why do you think people will substitude Zhang Zhuang later in the history to come? Because the search of YJKYM has begun and no one provides a satisfaction anwer yet. and YJKYM has become a myth. So, what is the highest level YJKYM can lead one to achive? And who has achieve that in the history? IMHO

That's the beauty of YJKYM, no one knows the whole truth. So the mystery is forever fasinating..... :D

yylee

06-22-2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
I find it teaches you awareness of the bones, muscles and ligaments that make up the feet, legs and joints, and also of your balance. So, even when you are "out of your stance" you still feel it.

that's more like independant suspension with computerized traction control, plus anti-roll mechanism. :)

yuanfen

06-22-2003, 12:31 PM

Hi Hendrik-- One problem with your post is the assumption
that using the ygkym is the same as sifu sez. One can after instruction and practice and experimentation find the ygkym to be true for oneself. To use your lingo- physics is physics.

Good wing chun to me remains a unique and rare art. I know lots of wing chun people with good ygkym who have and can uproot others.(Though the ability to uproot is only one skill) As a matter of fact one of my fondest memories is seeinga wc friend of mine at a taichi tournament uproot one of Chen Xiao Wang's best students.... who appealed to the referee that my friend was using strength... not really- physics is physics.((I can give names)) No reflection on Chen Xiao Wang's own simply superb skills. My friend was no slouch.

You are correct on one thing... if people do not understand the details of their ygkym--- as is evident again and again on this list-
they will abandon and modify and pretty soon they are doing something else... the Bruce lee case is irrelevant to my argument.

The ygkym for me enhances my growth for fighting and health-- because i try to do it right and have tested it for myself- irrespective of teacher, lineage etc. But- I am afraid that if I essay forth on the details of ygkym--- it will be long and zzzz time will take over in the thread,

TjD

06-22-2003, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Also, the significance of YGKYM does not have to manifest in its most obvious form/structure. The beauty of it is that its essence exists in all stances.

i don't know about all stances; in learning i've assumed some pretty bad stances that had no YGKYM in them and some stances in other martial art's most likely have no YGKYM.

however, i agree that it's essence is in all wing chun stances. although i usually think about it the other way around. every stance i assume/pass through is YGKYM; or at least thats what i strive for.

canglong

06-22-2003, 05:43 PM

Given that this stance is integral to Wing Chun, in which aspects of your training do you see how significant the stance is?

The stance is generally the first thing you will learn irrespective of lineage I think that says a lot as to how significant the stance is. Though the relevance of the stance and its importance to its relationship between the elbow hip and knee triangular theory will not be realized until further lessons a strong understanding of the stance is needed to see the importance as well as the connection.

cobra

06-22-2003, 05:52 PM

The funny thing is every now and then I'll hear someone mention that there isn't any footwork in the SNT form. Sometimes the most important things are there staring us in the face. One day, we wake up and see it for what it is.

yuanfen

06-22-2003, 07:13 PM

On footwork and the slt.IMO...

1. Knowing how to stand well, balancing well and knowing
where "things" are - ygkym is the key start for good footwork...
and therefore allowing/freeing the hands to move like lightning.

2. Opening and closing the stance with clear intent and doing them smoothly- teaches a lot about body unity and the
cooperation of the hips, knees, ankles and feet and not splitting oneself.

3. a "live" slt -(capacity for subtle adjustments) - I have found it helpful for balancing and regaining balance on snow, ice, sand,
subways, crowds.

4. I notice elements of the slt in the "plough" of begiining skiers
slowing and coming to a stop, in good volley ball players in controlling the ball, in good posture in sitting in a backless chair,
in controlling someone on top of you and many other activities.

5. springiness-not too high not too low.... accomodating to gravity and the key to mobility....

May not be the only way ...but a pretty good way nevertheless

EnterTheWhip

06-22-2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Phenix
and YJKYM has become a myth. Myth??? I don't see it as any kind of myth. And it seems that most of the people posting on this thread don't see it as such either? So, from where are you getting these notions?

Phenix

06-22-2003, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Myth??? I don't see it as any kind of myth. And it seems that most of the people posting on this thread don't see it as such either? So, from where are you getting these notions?

Hi Joy,

You know when I am trying to be in different mode.
and, say if we are in the PHD defence, .....:D

EnterTheWhip,

the chinese said, drawing a ghost is easy; however, drawing a human is difficult. Myth, because everyone can draw thier own YJKYM.

Yy,

"That's the beauty of YJKYM, no one knows the whole truth. So the mystery is forever fasinating..... "

Sure, Ommmmm and I will get my perfect job. But, then I don't know what I like to be.....

KPM

06-23-2003, 04:44 AM

I know lots of people have said that the YGKYM is the foundation of all the WCK stances. But Pin Sun WCK is the only version I have seen so far that truly takes this literally. In PSWCK, the feet and knees converge (point towards each other) to some extent in all the stances. The feet are NEVER parallel, even in the side and front stances. All stances are considered variations of the basic YGKYM. This works for PSWCK because the YGKYM is narrower than what I have seen in most YMWCK branches. The knees are kept as close to 1 fist distance apart as possible, with the heels just slightly wider than the shoulders. So from a PSWCK perspective, the YGKYM is part of every technique and its significance is that it is literally the foundation of every movement. Hendrick asked for details. Here is a brief run-down of the YGKYM from the PSWCK approach:

1. Knees 1 fist width apart with heels only slightly wider than shoulders.

2. Feet point towards each other at about a 45 degree angle.

3. Sink the weight straight down so that the knees come together naturally without having to use excessive muscle tension in a "clamping" action.

4. The weight is on the entire surface of the sole of the foot, but with the center of gravity and therefore balance point over the "K1" point of the foot (slightly behind the ball of the foot and central).

5. The hips are allowed to roll up and forward naturally by flattening the curve in the lower back. They are not "locked" in. In PSWCK the waist is used to generate power in almost every technique. In PSWCK we often do a "pivot" or "shift" without allowing the feet to move, only the waist. PSWCK talks about using the "Kua" or "Kwa" just as you hear about it in styles such as Hsing I and Tai Chi, though the actual mechanics of it is a bit different.

6. The "Hoi Sic" or opening of the stance is a 3 part action:
Standing upright with feet together:
a. Sink the weight and pivot on the balls of the feet. allowing the heels to move outward 2-3 inches
b. Pivoting on the heels, allow the rest of the foot to pivot outward so that the feet are parallel to each other
c. Pivoting on the balls of the feet again, allow the heels to move outward so that the feet are at 45 degrees and you are standing as described above.

The stance is closed by reversing the actions above. This opening and closing is also seen as a way to condition the muscles and joints of the hips as well as develop a sense of balance and stability.

Anyway....that's one take on the YGYKM. Other's mileage may vary. :-)

Keith

06-23-2003, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by KPM
I know lots of people have said that the YGKYM is the foundation of all the WCK stances. But Pin Sun WCK is the only version I have seen so far that truly takes this literally.

Then you haven't seen our flavor of Wing Chun yet. Good post, BTW.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Jim Roselando

06-23-2003, 11:55 AM

Hey Kieth,

Good info/post. Indeed the YJKYM is all stances in PSWCK and all stances are the YJKYM. Its not easy to develop but with some hard work it can indeed provide a cool way of powering.

Kathy,

How are you?

I have seen Ken's method and Jack Ling's preservation and although the YJKYM is the root of your training I believe it is a bit different from how we refer to the YJKYM being "all" horses.

I will try to explain what I mean:

I believe once you shift out of the YJKYM into any other horse you no longer maintain or end up in Ding Jee shape. Also, since you shift on your heels it is almost impossible to Ding Jee as the feet tend to end up parallel. I can see how your posture and stucture is developed from your YJKYM and further enhanced thru the moving etc. but I am just refering to the YJKYM and not just structure.

Please note that Ken & Jack's YJKYM did hold all the properties that we in Koo Lo do our best to maintain (Tung Tao, Lok Bot, etc.) (except we do it with a bit of a smaller structure) but its the other horses I am trying to discuss with this reply. As Kieth has stated; we belief there is only 1 horse and the rest are moving variations.

I am not saying one is better or worst but just different.

Regards,

[Censored]

06-23-2003, 12:00 PM

Who among the respondents has spent months or years in YJKYM, AND months or years in other postures? If you haven't, how do you know what YJKYM is and is not?

06-23-2003, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Kathy,

How are you?

Well enough, and it won't help to complain about the parts that aren't. ;) Hope all's well with you too. The years fly, and it's been a long time.

I have seen Ken's method and Jack Ling's preservation and although the YJKYM is the root of your training I believe it is a bit different from how we refer to the YJKYM being "all" horses.

Understood. I've seen some pin san too, and did not notice a tremendous difference in that regard, so I'll have to trust you on your observations.

I will try to explain what I mean:

I believe once you shift out of the YJKYM into any other horse you no longer maintain or end up in Ding Jee shape.

If it's matters of degree or variability, little doubt this is true.

Also, since you shift on your heels it is almost impossible to Ding Jee as the feet tend to end up parallel.

Nominally more on center of foot, in front of the heel, though this can sometimes vary across the center of foot range. (Center of foot being the area between but not including ball of heel and ball of toes). Turning directly on ball of the heel or ball of toes not advised.

I am imagining your reference to Ding Jee as something akin to how the Sum Nung people end up after turning. If so, you're right, we are close, but not quite that much.

I can see how your posture and stucture is developed from your YJKYM and further enhanced thru the moving etc. but I am just refering to the YJKYM and not just structure.

Again, I'll have to trust your observations here. I am confident that we do indeed employ all 5 checkpoints of our YJKYM, including kim sut, even when not in the centered 50/50 stance. At least when we are right, LOL.

Even in the stancework for the pole, the "essence" of it is still there including all 5 checkpoints, even though the visible shape varies. That may be one of the more obvious places where we differ in appearance as you suggest.

Please note that Ken & Jack's YJKYM did hold all the properties that we in Koo Lo do our best to maintain (Tung Tao, Lok Bot, etc.) (except we do it with a bit of a smaller structure) but its the other horses I am trying to discuss with this reply. As Kieth has stated; we belief there is only 1 horse and the rest are moving variations.

Understood. I can't help but wonder if what you observed is just how much they personally can "get away with," versus how we are taught to practice. They can definitely get away with a lot more than most of us mere mortals, LOL. But this is only wondering; I realize you are infinitely more familiar with pin san than I am, and in a better position to offer comparisions. Any insights I have are mainly incidental.

I am not saying one is better or worst but just different.

No worries at all. That never even crossed my mind.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Jim Roselando

06-23-2003, 01:12 PM

Hello KJ,

Well enough, and it won't help to complain about the parts that aren't. Hope all's well with you too. The years fly, and it's been a long time.

The years indeed fly! Insert drama music! hehehe JR

Understood. I've seen some pin san too, and did not notice a tremendous difference in that regard, so I'll have to trust you on your observations.

Nominally more on center of foot, in front of the heel, though this can sometimes vary across the center of foot range. (Center of foot being the area between but not including ball of heel and ball of toes). Turning directly on ball of the heel or ball of toes not advised.

Good info. When you shift does the front of the foot swing more than the back of the foot? JR

I am imagining your reference to Ding Jee as something akin to how the Sum Nung people end up after turning. If so, you're right, we are close, but not quite that much.

Yes. Closest to Sum Nung JR

Again, I'll have to trust your observations here. I am confident that we do indeed employ all 5 checkpoints of our YJKYM, including kim sut, even when not in the centered 50/50 stance. At least when we are right, LOL.

No doubt! I think even one of your Kung Fu brothers lists them on the bottom of his e-mails! Those are the roots! JR

Understood. I can't help but wonder if what you observed is just how much they personally can "get away with," versus how we are taught to practice. They can definitely get away with a lot more than most of us mere mortals, LOL. But this is only wondering; I realize you are infinitely more familiar with pin san than I am, and in a better position to offer comparisions. Any insights I have are mainly incidental.

You know! Thats a good point! Many experts can get away with a lot more than us average people. The above info. you gave helps that. JR

No worries at all. That never even crossed my mind.

Cool! :cool:

See ya,

Phenix

06-23-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by [Censored]
Who among the respondents has spent months or years in YJKYM, AND months or years in other postures? If you haven't, how do you know what YJKYM is and is not?

OK. :D

LEt's make an experiment.

Stand 45 mins morning and night in Zhang Zhuang for 100days.
until the weight sink to the feet and then fade away.... no more weight feeling anywhere.

Now, go to YJKYM, Stand with the same amount of time. After 100days. write a report on what is going on.

yuanfen

06-23-2003, 06:23 PM

I have stood in both postures... for prolonged times.For the ygkym for circulation purposes the hands will not be with fists at the side. As in taiji- there are differences in postures for development and application.
Both are good postures for circulation purposes... the ygkym is better for martial purposes. If I didnt experimentally find it to be the case i would be doing taji primarily rathen than wing chun.

PS- just as the standing stake posture has to be adjusted for correctness- so also the ygkym...sloppy ygkym wont do.

06-24-2003, 04:57 AM

Hi Jim.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I wrote: Nominally more on center of foot, in front of the heel, though this can sometimes vary across the center of foot range. (Center of foot being the area between but not including ball of heel and ball of toes). Turning directly on ball of the heel or ball of toes not advised.

Jim wrote: Good info. When you shift does the front of the foot swing more than the back of the foot? JR

The front and back of the foot both swing, as evidenced by shoe wear patterns. Per your observations though, there is typically a wider arc at the front of the foot, with our center foot weighting inclined somewhat toward the heel rather than dead center or bubbling well (most of the time).

I wrote: I am imagining your reference to Ding Jee as something akin to how the Sum Nung people end up after turning. If so, you're right, we are close, but not quite that much.

Jim wrote: Yes. Closest to Sum Nung JR

Thought so. I just brought that up in case it helped as a common reference. We are similar in intent, though theirs is a little more exaggerated than ours, which I imagine is consistent with your observation.

Regards,
- kj

Phil Redmond

06-24-2003, 06:51 AM

Can someone translate this?

Phenix

06-24-2003, 08:26 AM

Hi Joy,

Great post.

yuanfen

06-24-2003, 08:42 AM

Thanks Hendrik---
while sunyata- is everpresent-
in every good martial stance- there is a sunyata.
Once one learns that in ygkym--- one carries that knowledge with them irrespective of the external shape of what one is doing.
IMO of course- but i find it to be true.
Just as in number theory- the zero helps provide meaning to other numbers.
And with a deep understanding of yklym... one can move through other stances, footwork and motions.
joy

Jim Roselando

06-24-2003, 09:13 AM

Phil,

Zhan Zhuang = Jam Jong in Cantonese

I believe it translates into Standing Post but if someone who speaks the lingo can give a better translation please do as I dont speak the lingo.

See ya,

KPM

06-24-2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by kj

Then you haven't seen our flavor of Wing Chun yet. Good post, BTW.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Hi Kathy Jo!

Glad you liked the post. The thing that struck me about PSWCK and its emphasis on the YGKYM as the foundation is the fact that the feet are never parallel. I have not seen this in other WCK lineages. To me, keeping the feet/knees converging to some extent regardless of the stance or movement is truly "literally" taking the YGKYM as the foundation of all positions. The feet are never parallel if things are done properly from a PSWCK perspective. I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing this in Ken Chung's WCK. I'm open to any correction/feedback in this regard. Thanks!

Keith

PaulH

06-24-2003, 11:04 AM

Keith,

We have parallel ideas with regards to the non parallel feet of the stance as well as turning from the center of the feet. And no, I'm not PS but more WSL. Take a look at my coach's website. www.chez.com/baseweb/

Regards,

[Censored]

06-24-2003, 12:00 PM

After 100days. write a report on what is going on.

I've already run that experiment. Have you? Has anyone else? Unfortunately I don't have the time or generosity to write a report. But I can say that much of what I was taught about YGKYM is wrong. Much of the advice on this forum is wrong. Oh well, you can never go home again. ;)

Jim Roselando

06-24-2003, 12:44 PM

Hello Paul,

From looking at the YJKYM in the Siu Nim Tau picture it looks somewhat close but still a bit different from how we do it. Not too much different but the knees seem to bee pulling in rather than sinking forward/in. Hard to describe and I may be wrong as it is just a picture so forgive me if I am off base! :)

Then if you take a look a the CK, BJ, Jong positions you can see the knees do not have the same positioning as in YJKYM so it makes me think that there is some different mechanics going on in the other horses shown? Once again, its just a picture so please forgive if I am getting the wrong impression but indeed the Jong is the most noticeable difference in knees to the SNT foto!

See, in PSWC they only believe there is one horse. So, when you shift you will still be in YJKYM and when you step you will still be in YJKYM. All are just turned variations of the YJKYM. If in YJKYM you have your heels slightly out then when you shift both feet should turn the same ammount as the hips are turning which would mean they still have the heels out effect. If the heels are still maintaining that effect you will arrive in what is called Ding Jee Ma. If there is no Ding Jee then something happened and the YJKYM property is not the same for the other horses being used.

Have to run!

See ya,

06-24-2003, 12:53 PM

Hi Keith.

Originally posted by KPM

Hi Kathy Jo!

Glad you liked the post. The thing that struck me about PSWCK and its emphasis on the YGKYM as the foundation is the fact that the feet are never parallel. I have not seen this in other WCK lineages. To me, keeping the feet/knees converging to some extent regardless of the stance or movement is truly "literally" taking the YGKYM as the foundation of all positions. The feet are never parallel if things are done properly from a PSWCK perspective. I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing this in Ken Chung's WCK. I'm open to any correction/feedback in this regard. Thanks!

Keith

No need of correction, just some clarification on my part.

We will indeed allow the feet to be parallel at times, though depending on the physical makeup of the person and the circumstances of turning, a slight turning in of the feet can still often be observed. As I mentioned to Jim, in comparing to the limited examples I have seen of Pin San and also Sum Nung Wing Chun, our "kim" and the turning in of the feet is not as exaggerated as theirs.

Nonetheless, there is ALWAYS an element of kim sut for us, even if just a touch, as well as the other 4 basic checkpoint elements (the 5 being kim sut, lok ma, ting you, dung tau, mai jahng). This is true regardless if the position of the feet reveal it or not, assuming we are correct in our practice and application. We also use a fist distance as a guideline. The notion of holding a styrofoam cup without distortion between the knees gives the right sense of how much "kim" to apply in our case.

Earlier you wrote:

"I know lots of people have said that the YGKYM is the foundation of all the WCK stances. But Pin Sun WCK is the only version I have seen so far that truly takes this literally. "

We indeed take it literally and seriously, and it is this part that I was confirming in terms of our practice. I did not mean to imply we are "NEVER parallel," nor that we adhere to the same particulars in opening the stance, etc. Sorry for any confusion about that or other details.

Kim sut is part and parcel of how our stepping and turning is powered and controlled from the knees. It is also a means of maintaining integrity between knees and hips, waist, shoulders, and elbows; our foundation for the whole body unity thing. So we do indeed take it very seriously, and get sloppy with it only at our own peril.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

PaulH

06-24-2003, 01:07 PM

Hi Jim,

You may be off my saddle but on your horse's base! Ha! Ha! The Jong's picture is done by a student and he was too wide. Jean Marc and Chan Keo's horse are more narrow and concentrated like the YYKYM from different angles. And yes, there are no pulling in as this would create tension in the horse. Forward and sinking inward naturally all the way! Like you said, there may be slight differences but some similarities are there. After all, we all have the same human body mechanics. How we use it will be indicative of our WC characters.

Regards,

Jim Roselando

06-24-2003, 01:11 PM

Hey Paul,

Forward and sinking inward all the way! Like you said, there may be slight differences but some similarities are there.

Good stuff! Hey? Are you the same Paul I did a small write up on Duen Kiu for on Rene's old web board a long time ago??? Your name looks familiar! JR

Gotta run!

PaulH

06-24-2003, 01:30 PM

Jim,

Probably me. I was quite an itchy spider there until they closed that web. Hence I has to migrate to this wonderful web to sling some more sticky threads. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Phenix

06-24-2003, 01:47 PM

Hi Paul,

Where are you located?

Hendrik

PaulH

06-24-2003, 01:57 PM

Los Angeles. Close to Korean town. My neighbors speak English, Arabics, Armenians, Koreans, Filipino, Spanish, and Chinese. Quite a miniature of old USA.

Regards,

Phenix

06-24-2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Phil,

Zhan Zhuang = Jam Jong in Cantonese

I believe it translates into Standing Post but if someone who speaks the lingo can give a better translation please do as I dont speak the lingo.

See ya,

JIm,

You are doing great.

Phil, Jim

Zhuang or post in the classical chinese means a way or road which can travel to every where.

Thus, Zhan Zhuang or Standing post is " A way to travel to every where via standing. "

There are quite a few different Zhuang cultivation in Chinese MA.
However, thier common core is to explore the capabilities or human potential of Human (physical/Mental). TCM meridian and the body's action/reaction force are the detail's which one inverstigating and experiencing.

Xing Yee has it's very famous and Advance San Chai Zhuang.
and Yee Chuan has it's Huun Yuen Zhuang....

Zee Ran Zhuang is the common of all style. Zee Ran Zhuang or the Nature Post.

IMHO, that SLT based it's platform from Zee Ran Zhuang. Thus, it doesn't use the SanChin of WHite CRane Wing Chun of Fujian to generate power.

As for why is the breathing affecting the sole and slight weight shifting? It begun from the Yellow Emperor internal Clasic.
As it was said that " the sage's breathing utilize the sole."..
This is not a new concept. This is an old one but was generally neglected. but, this is the concept of internal strengthening. sole breath work, or Choong See, is for leading the ying of earth up .... it is true that one can use the 12 meridians to explain the relationship of breathing, sinking.... fajing... recieving... It is also true that even we cannot guarantee how good one can be. that with the knowledge of the 12 medirians, breathing, sinking... a few basic keys. Fajing, Recieving Jing are not impossible. However, advancement are due to training. that cannot be replaced.

IMHO, this is a pretty deep art. One can investigating it for a live time and doesn't feel lonely.