street fight, chain punching

[russellsherry]

hi guys on chain punching, first i think , it would depend , on
with , whom you are fighting. if it is a unskilled person knows nothing, i would use chain punching, if it was a good boxer, i would , use nearest weopen to nearest target and watch out for jabs uppercut ete also consider he may have a blade or gun
in this case my thought is give him my money and maybe i can walj away? if puch comes to shove, martial arts ,teach us the
best time to strike if he was stupid enough to turn his back on me i would put him in the ground as quickly as possible
peace russell sherry

[TwoManSaw]

Hello russell,

I agree with what you wrote, my personal preference is work
the blindside and use split level punching, which works well
against people who are used to covering up target areas
well.

bye for now

[Geezer]

IF.....my Uncle was built differently, she would be my Aunt????!!!!!

IF is a very big word and it's not guarenteed???


Sheldon

[foolinthedeck]

i dont understand..

what is chain punching? if you hit someone once and it wasnt enough then you keep hitting until it is. If that person is fighting back then you hit when you can.

'chain punching' as a concept seems to imply a lack of awareness of your opponent, as if you just hit randomly, even against a punch bag chain punching is bad because it doesnt take into account any movement of the bag, relative strength of any punch vs another, movement of you around target etc.

if you simply mean ' keep hitting really fast' ...
shouldnt that be so obvious as not to require a term 'chain punching'?

[foolinthedeck]

also,
what is your intention?

again lack of awareness if all you do is chain punch, no change in terms of simply deflecting opponents, using their strength agaisnt them, yielding, triangulation, power generation etc..

if you just want to defend yourself then a gatling gun of punches is not the best way, theres no quality there.

[yenhoi]

russellsherry, i agree: punch punch punch punch punch punch punch, etc.

:eek:

[russellsherry]

hi fooling the deck, look chain punching is not the be all to end all
but , i think you shoukd keep not be closemined remember its chain punching that make us diffrent from other styles peace rusellsherry

[Wingman]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
<snip>...if you just want to defend yourself then a gatling gun of punches is not the best way, theres no quality there.

IMHO, chain punching is one example of "lin sil di dar" (simultaneous attack and defense). When the opponent attacks, you defend with an attack (punch). Your punch will deflect his attack; and at the same time set up for your next attack.

As russellsherry said, "chain punching is not the be all to end all". There are other weapons in the wing chun arsenal that you can use in a certain situation. Different situations requires different weapons. Some situations require a gatling gun; while others require a sniper rifle. You wouldn't use a machine gun to kill a fly, would you?

[foolinthedeck]

i still dont get it, but its probably just me.

russel said that chain punching is what makes us different from other styles.

really? i would have thought that this was the concept which is most SIMILAR to other styles. do other styles have chi sao, bong tan and fuk etc etc?

what am i being closedminded about by talking about a lack of awareness in chain punching? i never said we should not use chain punching, just that suing it alone would be flawed. its hardly a 'skillful' thing to train as compared with everything else that wing chun has to offer (and apparently shares with other MA???)

wingman, i agree in as much as a punch should be used as a defence, not just an attack, but this doesnt really mean that chain punching is thus logically simultaneous attack and defence. a striking punch will have minor differences to a blocking one, the intention for one thing is different, if not then there is no attack and defence only a unity of motion to respond.

also to just claim that 'your punch will deflect his attack' well, we dont need any other technique then, it seems as if you have simplfied wing chun down to just punching and nothing else..

of course i wouldnt use a gatling gun to kill a fly, but then i wouldnt use a sniper rifle either. i would just open the window, and i dont kill flies. bad karma. theres a right time for everything, and a right time for chain punching, my argument thouigh is that chain punching is reminiscent (in firearm terms) of a heavy and unweildy gatling gun - like what that wrestler uses in the film Predator and hits nothing.. the reason why such weapons are rarely used is surely because of accuacy etc. so the wing chun equivalent of the walter PPK is going to be the best punch ismy opinion...

just my opinion, maybe i'm still misunderstanding your love of chain punching.

[russellsherry]

dear fooling the deck, tell me mate do karate have chain punching i dont think so i said it is not the be all to end all iin wing chun , i use elbows knees when its right to do so but chin punching and chi sau makes us driffrent to all styles peace russellsherry

[ntc]

Chain punching is typically applied when you have the opponent's structure under control, you have his arms totally trapped, and he is completely exposed. You would then use chain punching to move in to finish off the opponent. Otherwise, chain punching is primarily a training drill to synchronize your punching with your footwork, so that you can move as one structure and add the momentum of your movement to the strength behind your punches.

[russellsherry]

dear ntc you put my thoughts into words i compleatle argee with you russell sherry

[ntc]

Cool. Sometimes it is sooo much easier to show a student or another practitioner what you mean.... putting into words is oftentimes challenging, and can frequently be misinterpreted.

[OdderMensch]

also to just claim that 'your punch will deflect his attack' well, we dont need any other technique then, it seems as if you have simplfied wing chun down to just punching and nothing else


foolinthedeck ,
I don't think he's saying that, but if he did, he'd be ok in my book. I've seen realy skillful chainpunching defeat a lot of stuff. And I've seen poor chainpunching put people in some bad positions. But good chain punching stucture (lien wan kuen) is aware of the opponent, its just not concerned with them.

[russellsherry]

dear ntc and oddermench thanks for your help guys russellsherry

[yuanfen]

Succint. clear and good post by NTC on "control" and 'context"
of chain punching.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck ]
wingman, i agree in as much as a punch should be used as a defence, not just an attack, but this doesnt really mean that chain punching is thus logically simultaneous attack and defence.

Theoritically, you can only chain punch if you occupy the centerline. If you occupy the centerline when you punch, your punch will arrive first. This will force your opponent to defend. Before he has time to recover, your next punch is already coming towards him. This will again force him to defend. The idea of the chain punch is to force the opponent to defend himself & not give him the opportunity to recover & counter-attack.

The reason why chain punching is "simultaneous attack & defense" is because by attacking/punching, you deny your opponent the opportunity to attack. Isn't that a good defensive stategy?

a striking punch will have minor differences to a blocking one, the intention for one thing is different, if not then there is no attack and defence only a unity of motion to respond.

There is no such thing as a blocking punch. When you punch, your intention is to hit the opponent. It is only incidental that your punch deflects your opponent's attack. Thus, attack & defense are one (just like you said).

also to just claim that 'your punch will deflect his attack' well, we dont need any other technique then, it seems as if you have simplfied wing chun down to just punching and nothing else..

Isn't it what WC is all about?:) ... to simplify? Why defend & then attack if you can just attack? I know that in real life it is not as simple as that. It is not possible at all situations. But if the situation presents itself, go ahead and attack!

[foolinthedeck]

oh, you're all against me!

thanks russel, no karate doesnt have chain punching to my knowledge but you insinuated that:


i think you shoukd keep not be closemined remember its chain punching that make us diffrent from other styles peace rusellsherry

that chain punching was the ONE thing that made us different from others, not one of many, i just attempted to show that its the last thing which is different. Also, the fact that karate doesnt have it doesnt mean that Hung Gar, Mantis, etc etc other CMA's dont.

ntc:

Chain punching is typically applied when you have the opponent's structure under control, you have his arms totally trapped, and he is completely exposed. You would then use chain punching to move in to finish off the opponent

maybe i'm just splitting hairs, but i still dont see why chain punching would be needed in this situ.
if one punch finished things use one, if not carry on puncing, but it doesnt need to be discussed as 'chain punching' as this implies as i said before a lack of awareness as you only chain punch.

much better IMO, to finish someone off with a palm knee elbow combo ie making use of all your weapons in different ways and not just a chain of punches.

chain punching as a drill is fine,. but then if you look at the original post that was not the question or topic.

oddermensh:
would you recommend more time be spent of chain punching than other things like sensitivity, relaxation, structure, bridging etc? it seems as if you are completely in favour of chain punching overtaking these other concepts?

wingman:
didnt you reread your other post? you said:


When the opponent attacks, you defend with an attack (punch). Your punch will deflect his attack; and at the same time set up for your next attack

and then in the last post:


The reason why chain punching is "simultaneous attack & defense" is because by attacking/punching, you deny your opponent the opportunity to attack

there are contradictions here. if the second quote is your formula thats fine but to use punches as defences rather than to prevent attacks is a different concept. originally u seemed to be suggesting that chain punching is a defence strategy


There is no such thing as a blocking punch. When you punch, your intention is to hit the opponent

doesnt this contradict what you said about your punch deflecting his attack? i agree that there is no such thing as a blocking punch, maybe you didnt make yourself clear enough earlier.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
there are contradictions here. if the second quote is your formula thats fine but to use punches as defences rather than to prevent attacks is a different concept. originally u seemed to be suggesting that chain punching is a defence strategy

I don't see any contradiction. Preventing your opponent from attacking you is a very good defensive strategy. Also, your attack is at the same time your defense. Attack and defense are interlinked. One exists because of the other. "The best defense is a good offense". "Attack is the secret of defense...." (see my signature)


doesnt this contradict what you said about your punch deflecting his attack? i agree that there is no such thing as a blocking punch, maybe you didnt make yourself clear enough earlier.

You did not include in the quote the rest of what I said. Below is the full text in the previous post.

"There is no such thing as a blocking punch. When you punch, your intention is to hit the opponent. It is only incidental that your punch deflects your opponent's attack. Thus, attack & defense are one (just like you said)".

Oh... BTW, we are not all against you. We just have a difference in opinion.:)

[foolinthedeck]

ok

[OdderMensch]

oddermensh:
would you recommend more time be spent of chain punching than other things like sensitivity, relaxation, structure, bridging etc? it seems as if you are completely in favour of chain punching overtaking these other concepts?


No, I'm saying that you should chain punch in a relaxed manner, provided with good WC structure and sensitivity in order to bridge properly with, and ultimatly destroy your opponent.

There is a huge difference between chain punching and throwing out your arms as fast as possible.

[TenTigers]

ok, a few things-one, chain punching from outside is suicidal-but as Sifu Duncan Leong sez-"Once I am inside your horse, you can't stop me." That is where chain punching is not simply an exercize-but a devastating technique. Structure is everything-obviously.
second point-to contradict Russell Sherry-other arts do in fact have chain punching and chi-sau. Hung Ga for one has always had chain punching-in Cheong Sum Jeong=Heart Penetrating Palm-there are chain punches-and in the five animal form there is a technique that is identicle to William Cheung's famous "entry technique"=front thrust kick/biu sao,and chain punches-with biu-jee's. Hung Kuen also has various forms of Chi-sau-called kiu-sao. As does Southern mantis, bak mei, yau kung mun, and others-basically any southern Fukien siu-lum art will have these.My two cenrts

[russellsherry]

hi ten tigers, yes i am aware that other schools have chain punching, and some version of chi sua in new zealand their is a master, called philip lam the ghost fist of lee lau gar and he, is very quick , with them. , but wing chun was meant to be the jkd of its time if you like our chain punches are shorter ,and very quick and easy to learn, peace russellsherry

[TenTigers]

Hi Russellsherry!
What exactly do you mean by "shorter"? I study both Hung-Ga and Wing Chun, and the chain punches are the same-if you are referring to the distance used in Hung-Ga as opposed to Wing Chun, the distances are the same, and in many cases, Hung-Ga is played even closer than Wing Chun."Toe to Toe, Knee to knee, hip to hip, heart to heart." Many people mistakenly believe that when they see long arm techniques such as cup choy, that they are thrown from the end of the strike. Fact of the matter is, we often throw cup choy striking with the forearm like a baseball bat while very much inside your horse. My two cents

[russellsherry]

hi ten tiggers correct me if i am wrong, but the hung gar straight, punch, you put quite a lot of power into them in wing chun you . would be lees power more skill if you like . but really as a lot of wing chun a came , from hung gar but was made easy to learn oh by the way ten tigers their is a arnis master in the philipines, whose name i wont drop but he says the wing chun stlyle came from shoulin and they had the same things in their stlyle as well . peace russellsherrry

[TenTigers]

Hi Russellsherry-
I totally agree with you on the common origin of these arts-namely Fukien Siu-Lum (Shaolin), and I've had the honor and priveledge of training (sadly, it was brief) Sayoc Kali with Tuhon Chris Sayoc-and I was amazed in all the similarities between Kali and Southern Gung-Fu. Imagine chi-sau with a blade! (doesn't get much better than THAT!:-)
BUT......(you were waiting for this, weren't ya?) I beg to differ on the matter of the jik chung choy not being a "power punch", per se. Although, I have seen alot of Wing Chun schools perform the punch with less power, there are Sifus out there-(Alan Lee and Duncan Leong-both direct students of Yip Man), who teach this punch with tremendous power generation. When I say tremendous power-I am not saying that it has alot of power for a short punch, I'm saying that Jik Chung Choy, when performed properly, with full body connection, proper alignment, rooting, etc has just as much power as Ping Choy (reverse punch) despite the fact that Ping Choy is using a deeper horse than Wing Chun's hau-ma. Too many people think of this punch as a mere snapping of the elbow and perhaps a body shift. They are seriously missing the boat. Agree? Dissagree?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by russellsherry
our chain punches are shorter ,and very quick and easy to learn, peace russellsherry Proper chain punches are far from easy to learn, especially the shorter ones.

[russellsherry]

dear ten tigers,io know their is a power punch in wing chun but what . i mean is that. hung gar triains many driffrent type of punching . like the reverserpunch as well . while wing chun main punch is the chain punches with others coming into it later it is great to see , you have done , kali as i train in kali under the top student of guro roland dantes a most famous martial arts teacher
here , in australia and, being a disabled person i find , arnis quite easy to learn and use. peace russellsherry

[TenTigers]

Hi Russ-I guess it depends on who is teaching Wing Chun. I am constantly amazed when I see what I thought was specifically Wing Chun or Hung-Ga to be taught in each other's system-and I am not talking about guys who mix this and that creating chopsuey gung-fu, but purists like Alan Lee and Duncan Leong, and Frank Yee, and YC Wong doing these techniques. One of my former Sifus told me this: "No art owns a certain technique, it's simply attributes and personal preffrence"-basically it's all the same s***"

[Genesis]

If you want to see chain punching look at Vitor Belfort, he is a MMA fighter who has used his variation of the technique very very well in numerous fights.

[fidon]

I guess it would depend on the sitution and the person you are fighting, if they were experienced and you started rolling out the chain punches then they could counter attack and thus you'd have to change techniques.

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by Genesis
If you want to see chain punching look at Vitor Belfort, he is a MMA fighter who has used his variation of the technique very very well in numerous fights. Though what he does is good and very powerful. It's not really chain punching. It's simply fast repetitive punching.