for kathy jo masters not teaching students to black sash

[russellsherry]

hi kathy jo i was surfing around the other day and a sifu in sydney i wont drop his name , olny teaches his advanced class not juniors also i know a fromer sifu of mine does the same thing olny goes to camps and i am deed set against this sort of thing even leung ting came to teach all who turned up to train abd was very open so i give them cedrit for that what do you think if you sifu wont teach the juniors sometime i diont say all the but it gives them encougement. peace russellsherry

[RedSkaNite]

I am gonna keep this as nice as possible. you might want to add a little sentence structure (periods and commas), this is awful hard to read.

[anerlich]

Guys, Russell has a disability.


I am gonna keep this as nice as possible.

You could have been nicer.

[yuanfen]

Most folks on the list understand Russel's challenge and his courage in meeting his challenge. Some may have been in and out of the list and missed realier posts.

To Russell- It is a shame when instructors do not give some quality time to each of their students.

[sel]

if you were learning at a school with over a thousand students, would you prefer to have a few seconds of your sifu's time once a week as he gave everyone a turn, or would you prefer to have the concentrated instruction of a senior instructor for the whole class every class?
if you were the sifu of this school, would you devote your time to students who hadn't proven themselves to be dedicated to their practice? or would you wait a while and see if they stick around to learn from you?

in a small school, a sifu would have ample time to spread between the sudents and that's great. but if your reputation is such that hundreds and hundreds of students enrol in your school wanting to learn through your system that is not physically possible.

if you are talking of the school i think you are, the sifu is available to any student at any time. all they have to do is knock on his door and he will answer any questions or show them anything they want to know. he can also be seen most days in classes, giving even the most junior students help and instruction.

unless you have been to the school and experienced how it runs, you really don't know what you are talking about.

[RedSkaNite]

Sorry, I WAS trying to be nice. It is hard to do over the internet. I don't understand "Russel's Challenge". If english is your second language or something, don't take it hard, it really was just constructive criticism.

[kj]

Originally posted by russellsherry
hi kathy jo i was surfing around the other day and a sifu in sydney i wont drop his name , olny teaches his advanced class not juniors also i know a fromer sifu of mine does the same thing olny goes to camps and i am deed set against this sort of thing even leung ting came to teach all who turned up to train abd was very open so i give them cedrit for that what do you think if you sifu wont teach the juniors sometime i diont say all the but it gives them encougement. peace russellsherry

Hi Russell.

I cannot know the circumstances in the cited example, but on balance I agree with you that the teacher's direct interaction with students is invaluable for learning and also encouragement.

Sel brought out some valid reasons why it may not always be practical for a teacher to provide a lot of personal instruction to everyone. In schools that are too large, this may be a necessary compromise. Assuming the seniors are competent in the areas they are helping with, this can work out fine, and sometimes even have advantages. For example, a senior or intermediate student may more easily relate to some of the early challenges of the beginner or novice. I think there is value in working with people in all ranges of skill and learning.

When there are many students or lots of people making demands on the teacher's time, then tradeoffs may need to be made for other reasons too. For example, if we view the teacher's work as an investment, it can make a lot of sense for the teacher to spend greater proportions of one-to-one time with students who are putting in their work (utilizing the investment), rather than those who don't (wasting the investment).

I do not mean to imply by this that an instructor should focus their time and attention on "talented" students at the expense of those who struggle more, or have seemingly less natural talent. In Wing Chun, if the instruction is of good quality, anyone who is putting in their work can learn, improve and grow. Things tend to even out with consistent effort over time. Indeed, the encouragement you mention is a good investment in that respect as well.

IMHO, the most important and meaningful measures of progress aren't found by attempting absolute comparisons of one individual's potential or capabilities with that of another. The deeper value of Wing Chun, as I see it, is in the relative improvements we make within ourselves. From this paradoxical perspective, it is the least of us who are more likely to actualize the real and enduring essence of Wing Chun.

Showing a bit of my philosophical and political bias here, I propose that a teacher is not "obliged" to teach anyone anything. (Caveat: honesty in representation is paramount ... it is not acceptable to say you're delivering one thing, and deliver something less or different.) Even though I may not agree with a teacher's reasoning on certain things, our rights of self-determination should be maintained. The rights of the individual to do as they choose supercede the privilege of having our demands on others met. By this, a teacher can teach what they want to who they want, regardless if we like it or not. That doesn't mean I wouldn't find withholding of information or instruction distasteful. There are layers of difference between what a teacher may justifiably do and what is ultimately best or most appropriate.

Still, it is hard for me to understand and appreciate a situation where a teacher would strictly teach, touch hands with or help certain select students only, and ignore or segregate him/herself from the others. It is a beautiful and awesome thing to see someone who loves Wing Chun so much, that the joy and knowledge of it naturally and continuously flows from within themselves without reservation, onto and into whoever is receptive and willing. And what a shame and loss for any sincere learner to never feel the hands of a truly remarkable teacher or exponent of the art.

I realize some teachers may show more reservation as a matter of discipline, or by ranking system, or perhaps even as an intentional reward for loyalty, etc. While I am not especially or generally favorable toward such things, I do understand that everyone will have different views and reasons for things like this. Every situation is unique in its own way, just as people are.

Your thread topic also mentioned about not teaching to black sash. I have a harder time relating to this, as we have no belts, sashes or ranks. Our hands and capabilities are as they are, irrespective of time. I don't think highly of intentionally hiding or withholding information from students regardless of time in, and find no compelling reason for it. It doesn't matter how much of Wing Chun we see, none of it is ours until we have earned it. It is foolishness and self-deceit to believe otherwise.

Another point to ponder: If a teacher never directly instructs or interacts with certain of his or her students, but relies solely on other class members to do so, is he or she really the teacher of those students?

So, these are a few of my random thoughts on the matter. I have others, but I think this is enough for now, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[russellsherry]

dear sel iwas at a school in melbourne, same one david peterson, came from, my sifu firstly taught al the classes then , he went, into bussness later. on from the moment he was not there . their were punch ups trouble between fellow students
students , not paying fees, my former sifu lost a lot of students includeing my self in my opinon if you sifu does not teach class
once a mouth , by himself he olny cares about money the more
hands on a sifu is the more respect he earns, scince being away
from my fromer sifu , thanks to david peterson i cn say i trained with wong shun leurng thanks to my friend sifu david foggie i trained directly with steaphan chan and my sifu randy williams
remember this it took me 13 years before i woke up my and found out my former sifu cared olny for money and when i did if found out what real wing chun was i thank david peterson my sifu david foggie and my sifu randy williams who showed me what real wing chun is peace rusellsherry

[russellsherry]

dear kathy jo yean fan arnerlick , and others my thanks for letting this guy know i am disabled i was having trouble with the computer peace russellsherry

[russellsherry]

dear sel . i stand by what , i say also this sifu charges over$400
for private lessons more than , what bruce lee did this guy is no bruce lee and having seen his wing chun students lose every full contack fight at william cheungs championship i would ask for my money back i have seen his wing chun and i may be
disabled but i am not stupid enough to choose him as my sifu .peace russellsherry

[Miles Teg]

We understand you have problems typing on the computer due to your disability. However, I am sure your disability doesn't extend to the lack of ability to show some respect.

You also seem to hold a certain amount of bitterness to your old school and teacher. You need to let it go and move on. Your comments are damaging to their image. Let people make up their own minds about it.

You always finish your posts with 'peace', but you are not really promoting it are with this attitude are you?

[russellsherry]

dear miles teg , firstly . my expereince with my old school is one
my former sifu told his first class he trained with wong shun leurng for 1 year , when i met sifu he told us four five lessons max. then this person lost shall we say a million dollors of his best friends money his top student and other peoples money as well
if you read any of my posts you will see i metion my 2 best friends
were with me though this these people are great martial arts people. who by the way i always give cedeit to people who help,
me what i can not stand is b.s in wing chun in which in australia
wing chun their is al lot face fact un till recent times, interstate peolple would not come to melbourne , to teach becuase william cheung s school is here and thats why i have no time for some wing chun schools in australia peace russellsherry the reason i metion my old school miles is to warn people not to train there as well as he is a fake

[russellsherry]

hi guys , these are the three , best school in sydney in my humble
opinion .not in any order, 1 rick spains school rick is a class act
and a gentleman, of martial arts and hits bloody hard and i should
know. 2 stevavan fishers wt leung ting school , this sifu is a expereinced doorman , and this always counts with me and of course barry lee wsl school barry lee is somewhat a legand in wong shun leung wing chun here in australia. i can think of no other school in sydney i wouuld train at peace russell sherry

[russellsherry]

dear miles by the way i respect the people i wing chun who are fighters bostepe whom is my idol my sifu and others who know
can back up what they say i dont show respect to sifu with whom
are never at class olny there shihing s teach . even when i trained at williams school he came into class and tuaght sometimes.this shows master cheung cares for his students and what is going on at his school by the way being disabled has nothing to do with my thoughts dont feel sorry for me i have trained in wing chun for 27 years and i know who is good in wing chun and who is not peace russellsherry

[russellsherry]

by the way miles i have seen your name before with who do you train , becuase i think you are one of this guys students and dont like the fact tha t i dont think much of his wing chun if you are going to have a go at me decare your school because at least you should the guts to say you are one of his people and by the way your sifu i heard correct me if i am wrong you have to pay monthy fees and pay extra to train with him in extra class miles at no time did i metion anybodys time and i was olny makeing a point that i dont like sifu who dont teach class by the way one of this guys pupials came to my former school he was a top student of this sifu and i puched him into the walll after he went in to hard during sparing first time he went in hard at all i did was just bloack his attack second time the same third time well as they
say in my new school chiargo rules and he lost he could not handle me let alone the black belts in my former school peace russellsherry

[Miles Teg]

No Russll, I am not going to declare my school. And Miles Teg isnt my real name. I like to be anonomus, like most of us, becuase I like to talk freely without having to worry about desrespecting my own school.

Im not part of that school you are talking about. Im not even from Australia. Look, if you love the Wing Chun you are doing now thats wonderful. You often tell us how great Randy Williams is, and we like to hear that. He must be a good sifu. But there is no need to speak so bitterly about these other schools. Dont you think you are being a little disrespectful?


People are smart, they can make up their own minds about what they think is a good or bad wong chun school.

[sel]

Originally posted by russellsherry
dear sel . i stand by what , i say also this sifu charges over$400
for private lessons more than , what bruce lee did this guy is no bruce lee and having seen his wing chun students lose every full contack fight at william cheungs championship i would ask for my money back i have seen his wing chun and i may be
disabled but i am not stupid enough to choose him as my sifu .peace russellsherry

ok mate. whatever you say ;)

[russellsherry]

dear miles you have a go at me then dont put your name to it firstly , i like and respect all the wing chun schools mostly. even
leurng ting in my opinion has done a lot for the wing chun world
abd i dont hate anybody in my discussions with yeun fan and patrick gordon i gave respect to sifu fong dispite our different opinion .my saying about masters who dont teach students and who are not their is that they know what is going on at thieir
school . and the fact that you hide , behind a nick name means your opinion is of no value to me , i took my nick name off because i stand by what i say and dont bring my sifu into my words are my own . russellsherry oh by the way their where many good times at my former school and i dont hold grudges against eveyone their olny my former sifu and by the way miles if
you dont put your name to something i take no notice of you any time you want a match we can arrange it russellsherry

[russellsherry]

on my old school miles i justed , looked at my my old post re checking a sifus line and i dont think,i said eveything was completly bad their and i think perhaphs you have a problem with disabled people also i have prasied other schools here so whats
your problem with me russellsherry

[rubthebuddha]

:rolleyes:

what was originally a good thread has sunk into the gutter. let's just return to kj's post and the original principles in question:

i think kj is right, and it's a fine line a senior sifu has to walk. does this sifu spend his or her time with the senior students, or with the general masses? i think that, for large organizations, a mix is the best for a lot of reasons. spending too much time with junior students is somewhat of a waste, because that senior instructor has little time and so much knowledge to share. the senior students are the biggest sponges, since their cups are (hopefully) the most empty and can appreciate what their sifu has to teach the most. the more advanced knowledge the sifu has to offer, the more advanced the student must be to understand it.

however, too little time spent with junior students can stagnate an art. junior students look to the leader of their family to inspire them and renew their interest in practice and study.

i feel my sigung, leung ting, does this very well. when he "tours" a region, he often teaches open seminars to students of all ranks, but then gives several-day-long seminars in concepts and theory to the more senior students in the area. i like this balance, because a junior student's awe for their grandmaster can easily be tapped, but a senior student's thirst for knowledge is a little more difficult to satiate.

other examples of masters and grandmasters who do this were mentioned, and i feel that this is a very good way to impact the most students in the most positive way.

[rubthebuddha]

by the way, miles, have you ever cut yourself and bled black, or thought about reincarnation? ;)

[Miles Teg]

COme again sunshine?

[russellsherry]

dear rub the bubba thank you for you surpport in my original post i was careful not to metion names i repect all in wing chun and even went to a wt leung ting semminar in my time i was makeing a point about sifu not teaching juinor students not who is good in wing chun and who is not many thanks peace russellsherry

[russellsherry]

Dear rub the bubba, in one of my eary posts, on this subject, i gave sifu leurng credit for teaching all grades , as i did william cheung for coming into class and correcting chi sau and my sil lim toa at the time, i was talking from my expereince and not being bitter towards most in wing chun , i like and respect all in wingchun .perhaphs miles does not peace russellsherry and again many thanks

[Miles Teg]

Sorry Russel
No disrespect to you. I may have misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were being disrespectful to several other schools, that are still going. If that was not your intention then I sincerely apologize for the misunderstanding.

Bye for now

[rubthebuddha]

russell -- i'm aware of that, and that's the type of post i was trying to return to. kathyjo's was just the most recent. i was upset at how quickly the conversation between you and miles degenerated and wanted to get it back on track, specifically because the topic of who a master instructor is willing to teach and why is of importance. if a grandmaster remains aloof and only teaches the upper echelon in his family, the more junior of students will notice and respond negatively. but if a grandmaster spends all day correcting a junior student's footwork instead of sharing his more developed and deeper insight into chi sau with his senior students, the quality of the art will suffer. it's a nasty balance, and i think the method of my sigung's with which i am familiar is a very good balance.

miles -- i'm referring to your namesake in heretics of dune. when that character had his great change after being tortured, his blood was so rich in oxygen, it looked black when he bled. as far as reincarnation, i was referring to his use as a ghola in chapterhouse: dune.

[Miles Teg]

Oh! I got finally got it! Yes Miles Teg is my favourite book character.

Clever post. It has another, more personal implication to it, if it is also meant to be directed at the way I responded to Russel. But whatever your intention was, lets move on.

A final apology to everyone for ruining this thread. I hope you guys can pick it up where it left of.

We out
Miles Teg

[Rill]

sel and kj make some good points, but I would like to add the following thoughts.

Consider how many people will join a school, train for a few months, or perhaps even one to two years, and then leave. I've seen quite a number of people do this. Then ask yourself whether you felt it was worthwhile to spend your time with people who have yet to prove their dedication and who might leave before you can teach them anything of much value, when you could instead be training with people who have shown their dedication to you and who you know will listen to what you say and train hard to make it work.

Let's say you do spend time with them. Even in a small school, the turnover of students who drift on for whatever reason means you may not ever get to discuss the more advanced concepts with the senior students simply because you spend all your time having to explain the basic concepts to beginners. Eventually, you'd get sick of it. Eventually, the seniors will get sick of it too. Limitless patience tends to get rather drawn after 30 years.

Seniors have an obligation to teach newer students in order that the other seniors can spend time on more advanced topics with the instructor. Shouldering some responsibility gives your instructor a break, and more importantly, gives them a chance to train with people who are of a greater skill level than juniors. At least, that's what I was always taught.

After all, do you expect that once you gain the title of Sifu that you are expected only to teach, and never train yourself? Do you expect a kung fu sifu to only ever teach wing chun, or will you be so generous as to allow them a personal life, a business or two (or three), and heck, maybe you will let your sifu have some spare time to themselves to stroll through some gardens with their family. I believe there's a saying that goes something like "you have to rule your kung fu - don't let your kung fu rule you".

As kj mentioned, a teacher is not obliged to teach anyone anything. I don't recall hearing anyone criticising Yip Man for not teaching every single beginner who walked through his door one on one. If I recall correctly, that task was delegated to his seniors, just like the armed forces do with their ranks of officers, like educational institutions do with more advanced topics being taught by Professors or such, and like medical institutes do when they don't ask brain surgeons to take your temperature.

[sel]

i would like to expand on the "seniors teaching the juniors". it's an essential part of learning to teach because as you teach you learn too. sometimes juniors ask an old question in a new way which makes you see it a bit differently, and that is exciting. sometimes they ask a question you've never heard before, and that can be nicely challenging too as you try to answer it properly.

junior students, as they stick with their training and time passes come to understand the value of being privileged to teach for their sifu as well. which can be a motivating and positive enhancement of their own training.

[rubthebuddha]

good posts.

rill -- if i remember correctly, most of the criticism of yip man was for teaching his senior students differently. :o

miles -- no reflection on you personally, just a reference to the character. i was going to originally post the "bleed black" thing on its own, but it hit me that, given the state of conversation on this thread, i should probably include something else to distance my reference from criticism and reinforce the tie to the book.

did you like heretics or chapterhouse better?

[Miles Teg]

The 5th one, I forget the name now. Pretty cool series though eh?
You are the only one on this forum who picked up on my name.

Do yourself a favour and stay away from reading the Butlerian Jihad by Frank Herberts son. Its pretty dam cheesy. Im not sure about the other ones hes written but judged on that one I dont want to know.

[rubthebuddha]

fifth is heretics of ... i liked chapterhouse best of the six, methinks.

i've read the other three prequels. not grand, but not terrible. they fill a void, but they sure as hell don't compete with frank herbert's work. also, there's some pretty substantial flaws in the prequels that contradict with the original six. ah well.

regardless, let's get back on topic. what other practices of master instructors have people felt were a good arrangement?

[russellsherry]

hi guy thank you rub the buuba for you surport i have many wt
videos iin my collection, and my favorite is dynamic wing stun for some reason , my main point , to this was and i argree with you on what you said about masters being , aloof with students , in my orginal school my sifu in fairness was there, a lot and taught, well. But the moment he left complettly to others and startes iam the master and dont disturb kind of thing the school went down hill thanks again for you help and kind words peace russellsherry ,