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Samurai Jack
06-22-2003, 07:32 PM
I started training in Aikido in January and love it so far. I sometimes have trouble breaking 10+ years conditioning in punch and kick arts though. All the time I'm feeling like I should be popping my opponent in the nose HARD, and instead I'm trying to dislocate his elbow, since it's supposedly the more "humane" thing to do!;)

Anyhow, something really interesting just happened in class last week were my Sensei pulled back on my scapula (shoulder blades) and said something to the effect of:

"You're going to have to work hard to correct this mis-alignment. Your structural integrity depends on it. Until you get it right you're going to be weak with ki extension."

The trippy thing is that George Xu once gave me similar advice at a Chen Taiji seminar. I ignored him at the time since he was sort of harsh with his critisism in general, and I thought it was "too hard":rolleyes: Yeah, I'm sometimes sceptical of all this internal ki/chi stuff.

Anyway, later on during the class, I started really feeling like my throws were effortless. Every time I re-align my shoulders according to Sensei's directions I feel this surge of power, sort of like I'm a few inches taller, and the throws get alot easier. My partners usually ask me to ease up after awhile which is funny since to me I feel like I'm hardly doing anything!

So what do you guys think? Is this ki, or just good body mechanics? Or psychosemantic? Is this similar to "internal" style power like taiji or bagua?

Kristoffer
06-23-2003, 02:56 AM
BEats me.. :confused: But I know that correct body posture/structure will definatly have you doing better throws. Maybe he meant that the 'flow' in your tecs will be messed up if you don't have the right posture?

bodhitree
06-23-2003, 05:17 AM
Good body mechanics!! I practiced Aikido for a few years, It has some good stuff to offer, however, I would not consider it internal. My personal opinion is that the theories of Ki, at least in America are not as developed as qi, qigong, Chinese internal arts. I dont think an 'unbendable arm' is any sign what so ever of internal strength. Aikido is a good art, I just don't see to much internally!

Kempo Guy
06-23-2003, 11:01 AM
I agree with bodhitree.

It's all about bodymechanics... I believe this is true whether it's Aikido, Chinese Internal martial arts or whatever.

Having practiced Aikido in the past (3 years) and Chinese IMA (Ba Gua and Tai Ji in particular), there is little "internal training" in Aikido as opposed to the Chinese arts.

Using Chi/Ki in martial arts practice is all about using your breath, intent and bodymechanics in a congruous fashion. There seem to be very few exercises in Aikido which address these things specifically. There's biomechanical exercises such as funekogi undo, tenkan/irimi exercises and such, but no specific training in how to integrate your breath and biomechanical exercises...

I don't train in any of the above mentioned systems any longer, but still practice an art that puts great emphasis on biomechanics, breath and intent... they just don't call it Chi. :D

KG

Former castleva
06-23-2003, 02:46 PM
Nothing to do with fancy ki flow(ery)

Aikido IS an internal art,but it does not fool around with poetry about it. :)
I do not wholly agree with Kempo Guy about exercises.Definitely does aikido have "ki exercises"-itīs own,if small qi-gong exercises.Breathing is of extreme importance.

All of technique in aikido is based on well-established physics of movement.Aikido is internal in sense that it does not oppose but flows,not imo in a sense of metaphysical whoopla.

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 02:37 AM
Styles should never be based on metaphysical whoopdida, it should always be based on common sense, imo.
Aikido's breathing-exercises are more based on the breathing done in zazen (meditation) in the zen school of buddhism.

Former castleva
06-24-2003, 05:04 AM
Iīm not sure if I had you right,chen but zazen would refer to sitting meditation if I remember right (which is a part,yeah) but it does not make up for the whole show.

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 06:39 AM
I meant the breathing-exercises done in aikido is similar to zazen breathing.

Kempo Guy
06-24-2003, 08:08 AM
Only Aikido schools I've visited that have emphasized any 'breathing techniques' have been the "Ki Society" type dojo. Most other dojo talked about it (kokyu chikara etc.), did some zazen etc. but never had a step by step way of integrating movement, relaxation and breath.

This is very different from Chinese "Internal" MA where they emphasize these types of exercises.

I'd be curious to know what the "small Qi-Gong" type exercises in Aikido are. I was not aware of these...

Personally I don't characterize styles as Internal/External, but perhaps we should determine what make one art internal over another?

KG

Former castleva
06-24-2003, 08:49 AM
Internal/External classification is a hard one,not the least due to the fact that as the whole yin/yang goes,one is not simply all internal or external and may very well move from internal to external etc. in MA context,donīt you think?

I donīt like this classification method but was I supposed to separate these,I would say itīs the differences in power generation and so on.I have the idea that this is easier to do in the massive group of CMAīs.Sarcastically put,another strives for "external" movement in terms of developing external features of strength and technique and another one emphasizes imaginary energy. :cool:

Aikido might not be internal in the sense that some CMA are,but I think it qualifies.

Itīs been time since Iīve been searching this stuff but coming to qi-gong (ki-gong) equivalents of aikido.The founder developed his own set of "rowing exercises" and related.You might want to pick up some book or go to,say www.aikidojournal.com

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 09:16 AM
I read an article resently, where an old Chen-style Tai Chi Chuan master complained about how most tai chi chuan schools all over the world over-emphasized the "soft"- element of the art. He said that since the art is based on the Tai Chi (yin/yang)symbol, both soft and hard elements should melt into each other in tai chi chuan, so that a technique regarded as "soft" should be used in it's right condition, and a "hard" technique should be used when that is appropriate. TCC could'nt be said to be based on real Taoist philosophy, if it preferred one theory opposed to another.

Don't you all think that all MA that is one-eyed in it's philosophy should reconsider this?

Former castleva
06-24-2003, 10:01 AM
I guess the guy was just pointing out that theyīre watering it down,or how ever you call it,by doing that.

Besides,donīt advanced TCCīs actually use a considerable amount of muscle too? So I thought.

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 10:25 AM
As a scientist (or would-be;)), u must know that muscles are meant to move the body. So any movement AT ALL uses muscles, if it was just the blink of an eye.
If u mean physical strength, then u could argue that powerful strikes with chi behind them are physical as well, as all movements done by the body IS by natural law; physical. It is not like some ghost or god entered your body and used it at it's will, and you don't have control over it.
You could argue even further, and say that chi is THE source of energy used to execute a movement, so a punch used by a boxer or a throw used by an aikidoka has chi behind them as well, because u can't move without energy, or chi.

Former castleva
06-24-2003, 10:30 AM
Of course.

But you knew what I meant by that,right?

Chi is a cultural joke. ;)

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 10:35 AM
i guess..;)

So, u got the monkey-pox or sumthin?:D

I could make a darwin avatar for u, just say when, and I'll be there.

Former castleva
06-24-2003, 10:41 AM
Make me one!

:D

Thanks.

Kempo Guy
06-24-2003, 11:33 AM
You could also argue that without chi we'd all be dead. :D
It's the positive and negative forces in your body...

As for Tai Ji, no you should not use "muscle" in that you should not force anything. There are certain 'jings' where when executed may look like your using excessive muscular force.

When studying Internal MA, I was taught that Internal had nothing to do with whether an art was soft, used Qi or what not. It had to do with how you manifest your 'jing', i.e. the issuance of whole-body power using proper biomechanics and dynamic relaxation. IMA's also seek to develop the feel of a "united body" over strength, and uniting your mind and body to direct your "jing". One of the requirements during the issuance of force in IMA is using a unified body.

External MA then uses sectional power, meaning the body is not united in it's issuance of force. An external artist may strike using a lot of rotational power from the hip which generates a whip like motion to the fist (as an example). While the external practitioner may be relaxed during the strike (until the final moment of impact), the issuance of power differs from the 'whole-body power' used in IMA.

Of course one of the GENERAL differences in characteristics between IMA and EMA imho is the difference in it's application.
IMA's characteristics are to never issue force until you are in an advantageous position by trying to 'borrow the opponents energy'; sticking and following the incoming force vector; and lastly avoidance of direct contact (never meet power with power).

These principles hold true for most biomechanically efficient styles.
Just some thoughts from the cheapseats...

KG

Former castleva
06-24-2003, 11:38 AM
Good thoughts there.

"You could also argue that without chi we'd all be dead. "

Except this. ;)

You would have to make predictions about chi,show how it influences us and it is there.
Then you should show that we need chi to live.

:)

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 11:56 AM
External MA then uses sectional power, meaning the body is not united in it's issuance of force.

The body is always united in all movements done. This is a rule, except if someone cuts off your arm or foot while u strike..;)

U say that the real difference between the two so-called "branches" is the development of power in techniques and in some parts of their philosophies. But in fact then all arts can be said to be different in this sense, as they all have their unique developments of power/force and unique philiosophy. A so-called "external" style like white crane can be gentle in technique, and an "internal" style like Hsing-I can be very aggresive. So there is no set rule when it comes to MA. it can all be boiled down to this: Defeat your opponent before he defeats you. All else is just speculation.

Kempo Guy
06-24-2003, 11:58 AM
Depends on how you look at chi/ki I guess. To me it means 'life force', nothing more nothing less. Hence, without ki we would be unable to live. Everybody has ki some stronger, some weaker.

KG

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 12:10 PM
So: external system: uses chi
internal system: uses chi
'cos else u would be dead, if u did'nt have chi. (if u believe in chi.)

no need for distinction then. Fighting is fighting, no more, no less.

Kempo Guy
06-24-2003, 12:36 PM
chen,

First, the point of the body being united in all movements... well, I see your point. Perhaps I could have explained it more succintly. (Remember, this is what I was taught by my IMA teacher. I agree with most of it, but I'm not taking it as gospel.)

I guess what I meant to say was that although external martial arts use their whole body to engage a strike it only uses compartmentalized power to generate it's force.

When looking at issuing power there are definitely a couple of distinct ways you can issue it. As discussed there are what I called "sectional power" and "whole body power". If felt, you would very much be able to tell the difference. Having a long Karate (Kyokushinkai and Kempo) background I can certainly relate to the 'sectional power' theory. For instance, many Karate and Kung Fu styles will harden their fist (ala iron fist, iron palm training). Now this is never seen in IMA as the focus is never on the striking weapon but on the connection of mind, body and the ground to generate the force. The fist/leg or what not just happens to be there to be used.


I have to disagree with you on your second point. :)
Different arts have different training methodologies, this is for certain. However, how you issue power is quite congruous between most external styles, the same can be said of internal styles... (since we're using these labels for the sake of this topic). There definitely are commonalities when you break down the biomechanics of each 'branch' (i.e. internal vs. external).

Your example of white crane style may not be the best as they are not all that gentle (my IMA teacher also studied Fukien White Crane and showed us the difference in jings), although some internal principles are used in the style. Xing Yi is certainly an 'aggressive' style, however it uses all the IMA principles I described in my post.

Having said that there are a few styles that do use methodologies of both branches, for instance Ba Ji, Xinyi Liuhe etc. but I consider these "interal" systems anyway.

As I mentioned, I don't like using the labels... but I look at the styles as biomechanically efficient vs. not. Also, another thing I've observed is that most styles that fall within the biomechanically efficient systems (internal) are the focus on teaching principles over techniques. Some of the internal systems may teach forms but most teach sequences of movement (kinetic chains) in order to program your neuromuscular system as opposed to external systems were they use rote memorization of techniques.

KG

Kempo Guy
06-24-2003, 12:37 PM
I guess you can say external and internal uses chi... since 'chi' just is.

And I agree, fighting is fighting.

KG

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 01:01 PM
for the white crane.. I just used it as an example, to prove the point that some styles can be gentle in one aspect, and aggresive in another. I did'nt say that W. crane was not aggresive, or that XY is not gentle.. that would be limiting and dividing again! u just have your body and mind, and u can choose to be aggresive/ gentle at your own will.
i agree that the body-machanics is different.. but it is still always different from style to style.

I would say that the biggest difference would be the level of damage inflicted on your opponent after he is defeated. the higher the level of the style= the lesser the damage inflicted on your opponent while still being defeated & under full control. The high level style would then be mostly IMA.

Kempo Guy
06-24-2003, 02:01 PM
I think you're misunderstanding my point. The label "internal" vs. "external" has nothing to do with aggressiveness... It does however have somthing to do with your intent.

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 02:06 PM
I never said that about aggresiveness.. that point you came up with there is exactly what I meant!:)

Kempo Guy
06-24-2003, 04:33 PM
:D

chen zhen
06-25-2003, 02:23 AM
Well..:rolleyes:


I copied this article from EmptyFlower, maybe it can clarify a couple' things. Bare in mind: it's not perfect..:

-------

Language is an imperfect and imprecise medium of communication, although it seems we generally manage to cope. Terms are defined either by convention or common use, and sometimes used without real understanding on the part of the user or the recipient. Most disciplines have jargon of their own. These jargon terms are frequently new or obscure meaning for words which have other common use meanings. When the average person "feels a thrill" her or she is having a good time, whereas a physician is describing a quality of vibration felt when palpating the area of the chest above the heart. Similarly, when the non-martial artist hears a martial artist use the term "internal" to describe his art of choice, the uninitiated many wonder if it has something to do with the state of his bowels.

In the 25 years I have been involved with Chinese martial arts, I have time and again heard terms such as "power," "energy," and particularly "internal" used with only the haziest notion of what the speaker or writer means (or thinks he means). "Power" and "energy" have very narrow physical and mechanical definitions, and will be dealt with here only indirectly. "Internal," on the other hand, seems in dire need of an English language definition, one which approaches the Chinese usage without embracing metaphysics.

"Internal" is the commonly used approximation for the Chinese terms Neijia and Neigong. The first literally mean "inside family," and has several connotations. Something taught within the walls of a compound, i.e. a Buddhist or Taoist temple, would by definition be Neijia. This applies to theology as well as martial arts. In addition, the term implies something kept from outsiders or novices, who might be referred to as Weijia, or outsiders. By this definition, no one would want to admit to being Waijia, or worse Waihong, i.e. thoroughly uninitiated. In recent decades the term Neijia has been reserved strictly for so-called "internal" systems of martial arts, such as Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua. I believe this is inaccurate, a confusion of Neijia with Neigong.

Neigong means "internal work," and refers to training of muscle groups, ligaments, and tendons not usually under conscious control. By contrast, Qigong refers to breath control and visualization techniques for various purposes - increased circulation to the distal points of the extremities, increased vital capacity, religious discipline, among others. In the martial arts paradigm the terms Neigong and Qigong have distinctly unique meanings. Mistranslation has led to confusion and the incorrect use of these terms as synonyms.

This distinction is further confused by attempts to reconcile the same terms, used in religious contexts, with their martial arts meaning. In Taoist, Buddhist, and Animist terms, any practices done within the confines of the sect, ranging from prayer, meditation, ascetic practices, qigong, to yoga and physical devotions may be called Neigong. It is this similarity of terms, but in different contexts and hence with different meanings, which has lead to well intended but inaccurate explanations of martial arts terms by well educated non-martial artists.

Some might argue that the "internal" arts have religious foundation and therefore these terms, taken in the religious context, can be applied to martial arts. However, in most cased, the image of the "spiritual warrior" or "sage warrior" initiating and practicing these arts as part of his religious discipline and in accordance with philosophical principles is fantasy. In the heyday of martial arts in China, the majority of the best practitioners were uneducated thugs who trained to become very efficient at killing people in order to attain jobs as soldiers and body guards. It was the educated non-martial artist who romanticized the philosophical and religious connotations.

Martial artists, particularly non-Chinese speakers, have also contributed to the problem by using these terms indiscriminately. An immediate sense of discomfort can elicited by pressing the average American (and many Chinese) practitioner for clear definitions distinguishing Qigong and Neigong or even defining "power" and "energy."

The dichotomy between "internal" and "external" is a very recent one, popularized mostly since the turn of the century by scholars who were not professional martial artist Marital arts became popular among the educated classes due to the influence of various nationalistic movements in China, however the emphasis shifted to physical development rather than combat skills. A similar shift occurred in the West in the 1960's, becoming even more pronounced with the rise of the "New Age" movement.

In order to lend some intellectual legitimacy to the practice of what were supposed to be efficient ways of killing or disabling an enemy, the intellectuals chose to ascribe spiritual benefits and philosophical qualities to their martial arts of choice. The professional martial artist, whose social position was heretofore slightly above that of pond scum, were only too happy to play along. Not only were they able to improve their financial lot by teaching martial arts as calisthenics to well educated, moneyed students, their activities were accorded a greater degree of social legitimacy as well.

What then, is an "internal" martial art? How do the "internal" martial arts differ from the "external" martial arts? The answer is that these are the wrong questions. All major Chinese martial arts systems since Tang Dynasty have encompassed both Neigong and Weigong (external work). Neigong training includes a range of motion exercises, stretching, training the body to coordinate as a single unit, and most important, training to employ deep muscle groups for increased strength and power. By this I mean learning to activate (contract) certain muscle groups to a greater degree than they would normally in performing certain actions. For example, untrained persons, even weightlifters, only minimally exert their intercostals muscles when performing pull down exercise. The intercostals can trained to contract to a considerable (although not grossly visible) degree to augment the pull down or press down action. It is because the untrained observer cannot see the difference in apparent exertion, but the results can be clearly seen and felt, that these techniques are called internal work.

All Chinese martial arts, particularly Northern and Western Chinese martial arts, seek to achieve and even balance of strength and suppleness in every movement (Kang Jou Xiang Qi), and work to train both internal and external skills (Nei Wei Jian Xiu). The movements of a skilled Chinese martial artist of any Northern system, and many Southern systems, should appear soft, light springy, and supple, full of strength but without stiffness. These qualities are simply the hallmark of good martial skills, not just "internal" arts.

The best examples I have seen of the results of this sort of training have not been limited to so-called "internal" martial artists. In China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan all of the best Shaolin teachers I met possessed these skills to extraordinary degree, and were able to demonstrate aspects of both Neigong and Qigong which most "internal" martial artists only fantasize about. Indeed the dichotomy I mentioned seems stronger the further one is from skilled teachers, suggesting that it is a prejudice of the ignorant and unskilled.

Weigong refers to the external, i.e. visible aspects of any martial art. All systems require firm balance, good posture and stance work, proper mechanical alignment, and so forth. These are the external structure without which there can be no advanced work.

A further, historical note. There is a considerable body of evidence that orthodox (Hebei and Shantung) Xingyi was developed from early to mid-Ming Dynasty Shaolin, and Chen family Taiji from military martial arts of the same period. I will discuss the significance of this in my next article.

Laughing Cow
06-25-2003, 04:24 AM
Chen Zhen.

Thanks, for posting that.

Very much in line with what my Sifu sez about our TJQ.
;)

chen zhen
06-25-2003, 05:24 AM
No prop.;) I could find some other articles like it, just say when.

Laughing Cow
06-25-2003, 05:33 AM
Chen Zhen.

Can you pm me the links??

Thanks in advance.

chen zhen
06-25-2003, 05:42 AM
Just go to www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan, the articles I talked about is here. it's also here I got the Tadzio article I posted on the main board, which I asked KL to move over here.

anyway, here's another good article; "What is a complete system":

-----

What is a "Complete System?"
Complete Ba Gua Zhang systems are comprised of step-by-step, progressive, balanced curriculums which expertly combine all aspects of internal martial arts training. They are designed by an experienced teacher who will guide each student's individual development as it is appropriate for each unique individual. Any complete Chinese martial arts system will include a thorough and integrated training curriculum which incorporates wai gong, nei gong, and qi gong training methods. Below I will provide my definition of these components and explore each of these areas as I see them. Although I have divided them into three separate categories below, the reader should understand that in terms of internal martial arts training they are all part of the same whole and thus elements of one component will naturally cross over to the others. These components of training cannot be put into nice neat boxes, they are mutual supportive and mutually dependent.

Although beginning level training methods might isolate the various components of training, more advanced training will always contain all of these elements. Additionally, every training component in a system like Ba Gua enhances the attainment of skill in other areas. For instance, good solid wai gong training provides the foundation for nei gong and qi gong training and good nei gong and qi gong training will give deeper insights to the wai gong training. Also, exercises like the circle walk practice can be used to train all of these components depending on the walking method and the focus of the training. This is one reason why each system of Ba Gua will have numerous basic circle walking practices and stepping methods.

<http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/journal/03_pic3.gif>

Wai Gong
Wai Gong is the external aspects of martial arts training which includes firm balance, flexibility, agility, good posture and stance work, proper mechanical and structural alignment, coordination, stability while moving, and a physically strong body. These basic skills are practiced in the context of developing all aspects of the fighting arts such as foot and leg work, which includes stepping, hooking, kicking, trapping and sweeping the legs; striking with all parts of the body; seizing and locking (qin na); and throwing (shuai jiao).

These aspects of training form the foundation of practice and are emphasized heavily during the first few years. A complete system of Ba Gua Zhang will have numerous straight-line and circle walking forms, which are all Ba Gua specific and focus on the development of one or more of these vital aspects of martial arts training.

In traditional Ba Gua Zhang schools beginning students spend years developing the basic wai gong skills before focusing on the more refined aspects of the art. This is not to say that the basic skills training is not "internal." This training does involve the use of internal principles, appropriate body alignments and natural body movements. It is simply less refined than the more advanced training. One cannot start with a physically weak, uncoordinated, unbalanced, unconnected body and hope to develop refined internal strength through the study of intermediate or advanced Ba Gua forms or exercises. Today many teachers in the United States who gained skill through solid basic training and then later progressed to more refined aspects of the art tend to forget where they came from when teaching students. They no longer like to practice the physically demanding components of the art that were so important to their own development, or they find out that they do not attract many students to their school when they teach this way, and so they don't teach it to their students. As a result, their students are being cheated and will never be as good as their teacher.

<http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/journal/03_pic.gif>

<http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/journal/transparent.gif> <http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/journal/transparent.gif>
<http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/journal/03_pic2.gif>

In Ba Gua Zhang systems there are any number of forms and exercises associated with wai gong training. Basic stance work, straight-line and circle walking stepping drills, hand movement exercises, kicking sets, straight-line repetition of movements, straight-line linked forms, various cir4cle walking drills, apparatus training, power training with weapons, numerous two-person sets, etc. Each system will have their own approach. There are also numerous circle walking exercise working with different types of stepping exercises working with different types of stepping methods and upper body postures which develop the body and leg strength in a variety of ways.

Nei Gong
Nei Gong is training which is designed specifically for the development of muscle groups, ligaments, and tendons not usually under conscious control. This training involves refinement of the basic wai gong skills and development of the connection between mind and body. In the beginning levels of nei gong training, repetitive physical movements are combined with:

1) relaxation of all muscles which are not directly involved with the particular action being performed

2) breathing in coordination with the motion

3) simple imagery (use of intention).

The combination of relaxed physical movement, breathing, and intention begins to teach the practitioner how to move in a highly refined manner and facilitates the development of subtle strength and efficiency in movement.

Today some people in the internal arts are fond of saying "use no strength, let the qi move your body." Reality check! I'm sorry folks, if your body is moving you are utilizing muscles and strength. Don't let them get away with that "it's the qi" dodge. Whenever anyone tells me "it's the qi" or "use the qi" my mind translates it to mean "I don't really know what I'm talking about so I will say something very nonspecific and people will think I am an expert." The top level Xing Yi and Ba Gua instructors that I have met in mainland China and Taiwan rarely ever even use the word qi when they are teaching beginners. But here in "new age" America we find that word everywhere and there are people who will believe anything is possible as long as they are told "the qi" is doing it.

It is amazing to me how otherwise intelligent individuals will suspend all rational thought and common sense when someone mentions the word qi. Yes. I do believe in qi. However, I believe it is not something to be worshiped or sought after as "the ultimate goal" and it is not something that is magical or mystical.

<http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/journal/03_pic5.gif>

Proper internal martial arts training facilitates strong, full, and balanced qi in the body. This certainly helps the practitioner's "internal power." However, if the proper alignments, proper use of refined strength, proper body coordination and timing of the body movements, and correct, natural and efficient use of the body in conjunction with the mind and the breath are not trained correctly, the practitioner who is worried about obtaining "qi power" is dreaming. If those other things are in place, the qi will naturally be there, if they are not, you are out of luck.

"Proper use of strength" in the internal martial arts means that the strength is not "clumsy." In executing any movement, if the practitioner is utilizing muscles that are not directly involved in that movement, if the breathing is not coordinated with that movement, or if the mind is not fully involved in that movement, then the movement is "clumsy." The classics of internal boxing all warn the practitioner against the use of "clumsy force."

Nei gong training teaches the individual how to use the body strength in the most natural and efficient manner so that it is not "clumsy." Simple repetitive exercises which teach the practitioner to coordinate mind, body and breath are all that is required in nei gong. It doesn't need to get any fancier or more sophisticated than that. Wild visualizations exercises which tell you to "imagine the energy of your large intestines connecting with your lungs, moving out your middle dan tian, wrapping around your body four times counterclockwise and then sucking back in to your body through your third eye" are not going to get you ver far in the internal martial arts. In my opinion, in the context of obtaining martial arts skill, it is simply mental masturbation. Sure you might get a little "qi buzz" happening, but this kind of qi development is usually not very functional in martial arts. Additionally, forced movement of energy in the body through strong mental visualization is potentially very dangerous.

chen zhen
06-25-2003, 05:46 AM
continued:

The majority of the overly complex nei gong and qi gong which people are practicing today is coming from what I call "fad" qi gong books written by individuals who are appealing to the overly intellectual Western mind and overly lazy Western body by promising better health through mental gymnastics. I can't believe the number of phone calls and letters that I get from people that are overly concerned about things such as "connecting the governing and conception vessels" (Ren Mai and Due Mai) through meditation so that their "microcosmic orbit" or "small heavenly cycle" will be "complete." First of all, if your Ren Mai and Du Mai are not connected, you are probably dead. Secondly, if you are concerned about increasing the full and balanced flow of qi in these meridians, you should not be sitting in a chair and trying to do it with your mind. Correct movement combined with simple imagery and gentle breathing will do it for you in a simple, progressive, and safe manner.

In the book Shen Gong written by Wang Lian Yi, the son of the famous Xing Yi Quan master and Chinese Medical doctor Wang Ji Wu, (1891 - 1991, see photo on page 10, Pa Kua Chang Journal Vol. 4, No. 3), it says:

"If the qi circulation in the Ren and Du meridians is strong, the "Small Heavenly Cycle" is open and there are great benefits to health, including increased metabolic activity, increased resistance to disease, increased powers of recover from illness and leading to a long and healthy life. While qi circulation in the Ren and Du meridians is a vital part of maintaining health, Wang Ji Wu felt that the beginner should not try and force the qi to flow through strong intention. His advice was to practice the exercises with a relaxed mind and the intention focused on the dan tian. After the qi has gathered in the dan tian, it will find its own way in the "Small Heavenly Cycle" through the gentle coaxing of the physical movements."

All of the good teachers that I have been exposed to have the same advice for beginners. Don't force things with the mind that can be accomplished just as easily, fully, and safely, with gentle concentration and simple body movements. Through experience I have learned that they are correct. I myself practiced those "fad" methods for years. While I did indeed feel some partial benefits from these practices, the results were not nearly as great, or as functional, as the results I obtained through the practice of much simpler methods. Personally, I found that physical movement in coordination with the breath and very simple mental imagery was far more practical and beneficial.

In the chapter on Nei Gong in the Written Transmissions of Xing Yi Quan it states:

"If the dan tian is lacking, the ai will not be sufficient. With insufficient qi, power will be inadequate. The five elements and the twelve forms will be empty. In this state, in defense one will be as a city surrounded by a dry moat, in attack, one will be like a strong soldier with a weak horse. One must practice Xing Yi Quan diligently everyday. Sitting in meditation trying to become immortal will not cultivate the dan tian.

All of the nei gong I have been taught in mainland China and Taiwan by individuals who I would consider top rate martial artist was very simple, practical, and effective. Again, simple repetitive movements combined with simple imagery and executed in coordination with the breath is the most effective way to practice.

In Ba Gua Zhang much of the nei gong work is accomplished through nei gong exercises which are similar to things like the ba duan jin (eight section brocade) however they have more of a Ba Gua twisting and turning flavor. There are also other basic hand and body movement exercises and the circle walking practice while holding the "eight mother palms," which are included in the nei gong training.

Every Ba Gua system I have encountered has their version of the eight mother palms. These palms are also sometimes called the qi gong palms, the nei gong palms, the "inner palms," or "the basic palms," but the practice is the same. The student walks the circle while holding static upper body postures and executing simple directional changes. Concentration is placed on maintaining a stable dan tian, the breathing is smooth, continuous, and natural, and there is a simple mental image associated with each of the eight palms and the transitions between the palms. This practice is the core of nei gong in Ba Gua.

Qi Gong

Qi Gong training consists of breath control, simple visualization, meditation, and nonspecific body movement techniques and exercises for various purposes including increased circulation of qi and blood to the distal points of the extremities, increased vital capacity, increased mental focus, and increased whole body strength. These methods typically consisted of very straight-forward exercises designed to strengthen the body internally and increase mental focus. These exercises and techniques are a far cry from the "new age" qi gong of today which consists of a mixed bag of incomplete practices from various disciplins stirred up in a pot of mysticism and esoteria and promising results of "qi power" and "spiritual enlightenment."

The qi gong which the internal martial artists practicied was simple and the results where obtained gradually. Simple practice and gradual development in qi gong insures a safe practice. Any qi gong practice which promises quick results is probably dangerous.

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Much of the "quick results" qi gong which is written about and practiced today was taught in China to soldiers in time of war. Obviously in war time it was necessary for the soldiers to be trained quickly. It was also no concern of the people training the soldiers whether or not the soldiers developed side effects from the training years down the road or died at a young age as a result of the training. The war was now and the soldiers had to be strong and tough now. Unfortunately, after the war the surviving soldiers went home and taught these methods in their home villages. Lineages where formed and so we are left with these dangerous practices today. In many cases the damage done by bad qi gong will not show up for many years and so people did not usually connect the illness with the qi gong. Practices such as "Iron Shirt," "Iron Palm," and hanging weights from the testicles are the very worst of the practices which fall into this category.

Much of the "dangerous" qi gong methods mentioned above which were taught in war time originated in places like the Shaolin temple. In the temple the monks who practiced these methods did not take the same risks as the soldiers because they had time to develop these practices slowly and gradually and they led a lifestyle which was conductive to this kind of development. Their meditation practices, diet, daily schedule, and herbal supplements all served to keep the body in balance while performing these exercises. When these practices were separated from the monastic lifestyle, and thus practiced incompletely, they became dangerous and while producing quick results, they were very harmful in the long run.

Other qi gong methods, from both the Daoist and Buddhist traditions, underwent a similar transformation when they were taken from the temples and taught to the general public. More times than not the transmission was incomplete and when the practice was separated from the lifestyle of a monk, it became potentially dangerous. Good qi gong practice is very simple and the results are obtained gradually.


Mixing the Ingredients
Even if a Ba Gua teacher is teaching elements of all of the above training methods, it still may not come together to form what I would call a "complete system." What is listed above could be analogous to ingredients required to prepare food. If you were to possess all of the ingredients to make a certain food, but did not know how to mix the ingredients appropriately, how to prepare and cook the ingredients, and how to add the spices, you could not prepare the food properly. Martial arts training is similar. Just because a teacher has a grand list of exercises, forms, and training methods does not mean he has a system. There are a great many teachers of Ba Gua in the United States today who have a hodgepodge of forms and exercises from various systems and sources and they do not really know how to put them together to train students effectively. They have a lot of ingredients, but no recipe.

If the teacher shows the student "Sun Lu Tang's form" this month, "Jiang Rong Chia's form" next month, adds in "Wang Shu Jin's form" two months down the road, and then supplements the forms with ba duan jin and "iron shirt" and shows you his "fighting training" which simply consists of his interpretation of "the application" of each of the form movements, you are simply following him down his road that leads to Ba Gua Nowhereland. Complete martial arts training programs are very systematic. Like building a house, there is a plan. A strong foundation is built and then each piece is added sequentially and everything fits in its place. When the plan has been followed, there are no missing pieces in the end.

chen zhen
06-25-2003, 05:49 AM
If the teacher shows the student "Sun Lu Tang's form" this month, "Jiang Rong Chia's form" next month, adds in "Wang Shu Jin's form" two months down the road, and then supplements the forms with ba duan jin and "iron shirt" and shows you his "fighting training" which simply consists of his interpretation of "the application" of each of the form movements, you are simply following him down his road that leads to Ba Gua Nowhereland. Complete martial arts training programs are very systematic. Like building a house, there is a plan. A strong foundation is built and then each piece is added sequentially and everything fits in its place. When the plan has been followed, there are no missing pieces in the end.

A good teacher with a complete system will be able to show the student how to practice each exercise and form, be able to explain why each exercise is being practiced, how it fits into the overall picture, and where it is leading to next. Additionally, the teacher will also know how to vary the program from one student to the next in order to fit each student's individual needs based on age, sex, coordination, experience, strength, build, constitution, health concerns, etc. Not ever student can be taught the same way. Every complete martial arts method has a systematic program and each teacher knows how to vary that program to bring out the best in each student.



More than one Ba Gua "teacher" in this country is out there teaching Ba Gua forms to students that they picked up from video tapes, weekend seminars, or a two week trip to China. This typically occurs with teachers who have been trained in one system, like Shaolin Tai Ji, or Xing Yi and have students that also want to learn Ba Gua. In order to keep their students, they quickly run out and buy a video or take a seminar and then teach what they learned the next week. It is sad, but it is not an uncommon occurrence. Again, if you are a martial arts teacher and want to teach Ba Gua, spend some time really learning Ba Gua yourself before trying to teach it to someone else. Learn Ba Gua as Ba Gua, don't learn a Ba Gua form and then try to guess how all of the moves are used based on your knowledge of Tai Ji, Xing Yi, or Shaolin. You will not get it right.

If you are a student, take a hard look at what you are being taught and decide whether or not it has everything you are looking for in a martial art. Ask your teacher to explain his system and how each of the components fit together. Use common sense. Do not be fooled by explanations that sounds too general, promises of results that sound unrealistic, or training that seems too easy. Good Ba Gua training is extremely difficult.

If you feel your teacher is a good martial artist and you would like to obtain his skill level, ask your teacher about his background and how he was trained. If he talks about how his teacher made him walk the circle for hours in a low posture and made him repeat simple form movements everyday for months before he would be given the next section of a form, then he should be teaching you that way. Otherwise, you are probably never going to be as good as he is. Use common sense. Don't allow a teacher to "sell you," let him convince you through your own progress. Don't let a teacher tell you that you have to practice for ten years to get internal power. A student that practices hard should develop a good deal of power within the first year or two of training. It will take years to further refine that power, however, if you have been studying Ba Gua for two or three years and haven't already greatly improved your internal power, something is missing.

chen zhen
06-25-2003, 05:49 AM
Now I hope that has relevance..:eek::D

Kempo Guy
06-25-2003, 08:25 AM
Thanks for the links (although I've read them before). :)
FWIW, you may also want to check out Tim Cartmell's website at www.shenwu.com. He has some interesting ideas about Internal MA. (More in line with what I was taught...)

KG

chen zhen
06-25-2003, 08:45 AM
Thanks for the link. The guy halfways down the page has a name almost similar to mine;) :
http://www.shenwu.com./taichi.htm

Kempo Guy
06-25-2003, 12:38 PM
NICE

chen zhen
06-25-2003, 12:43 PM
uuh, I guess:confused:
:p

chen zhen
07-03-2003, 01:10 PM
i'll revive this thread with an interview with a man that knows the real ditinctions between the internal & the external in MA:
http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/ma.html