3/24 or 3/30

[Oso]

Which is better for losing weight(fat): a 3 mile run in 24 min or a 3 mile run in 30?

[Ford Prefect]

Depends on your age and your heart rate.

[Oso]

35.

don't have a clue to heart rate. can't afford a heart rate moniter.

my piece of equipment of choice is a Lifefitness stairclimber.

on level 12 this morning I did 3 miles/155 flights in 24 minutes and a few seconds.

due to time constraints I want to compact the workout, I'm lifting afterwards, and would rather stay with the shorter time. About 6 months ago I was doing 3 miles in about 21 minutes and can get back to that within a week or two.

My primary goal is to lose 25 lbs by Oct 1st.

[red5angel]

Oso, the longer run is better for burning fat. There is a school out there that believes that the harder you work the more fat you burn, and generally speaking thats true but you sort of peak out when running. also, running in the morning right after waking up is the best time, you would be shocked how fast you loose weight running in the morning!

[Oso]

I ran this morning at about 7am.

I guess I'm confused about the whole thing. I mean, it basically takes me the same amount of calories to run 3 miles whether I do it at an 8 mph pace or a 6 mph pace...right? I would actually think it would take more calories to run the same distance faster, but I'm not sure.


and, as for my heart rate, trust me it was up there. I'm 233 lbs and trying to get back down to a sustained 7 min mile:p

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if you want to lose weight just grab a knife and start cutting pices off you dont really need. jeesh.

[red5angel]

GDA's advice is sound, albeit painful...

I think the difference between the two Oso, is so small it won't really make a difference. It's usually the amount you run that makes the biggest difference because your heart rate is up higher for longer. Running faster is obviously going to burn more calories but at that speed there probably isn't much of a difference.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

widdle the weight away with gda.

[Ford Prefect]

Interval Training and wind sprints are actually more optimal for losing weight and a lot less time-consuming than sustained effort long distance running.

[Oso]

FP, I've done that before on the stairclimber, usually 1 min up/1 min down going from a high of Level 14-16 down to Level 5 or 6.

So, would 24 min doing intervals of 1 min @ lvl 16 and then 1 min at lvl 6 burn more fat than the "fat burner plus" program on the trainer? Or could I do the interval training in less overall time?

In the 24 min I did today it climbed gradually for about 5 min then gradually came down in about the same. then about a 4 min climb w/ 4 min down. then a long climb up w/ an immediate drop then 2 steep short climbs w/ quick drops.

sometimes I do the speed program which is basically interval training: one or two bars up and one or two bars down.

GDA, If I took your advice then I could just start with my head.;)

[red5angel]

Actually FP, thats not totally true, let me explain. Generally low impact aerobics is considered the best way to burn fat. The stairclimber is the best example. This is mostly because you are concentrating on the large muscles of the body. However, when running you are often using more muscles in your body whch leads me to believe that running still burns more calories. I have seen studies for both and what usually ends up happening is a comparison where you are running for less time then you are doing anything else. Why do you ask? Because while you don't even really need to buy a nice pair of shoes to go running, although they help, to do low impact aerobics there is usually some equipment you "should" be purchasing to maximize your performance.
The other trick is to ingest protein in copious amounts. Cardio workouts will burn muscle before fat. Thats also why the morning is the best time to do cardio, before you eat breakfast since it forces the body to burn fat.
However beyond the numbers, beyond the hype on both sides I offer this, while in the gym I see plenty of people doing stairclimbers or ski machines, most of them in not so best of shape. The majority of the runners I see are usually in much better shape. You can take that for whatever you want, maybe only lazy people do the machines for some reason, who knows.

[Oso]

HEY, you callin' me LAZY !!!!


;)

I must have low impact. If I run with any impact my right hip swells to the point that I can't walk. I scoffed at the stairclimber several years ago but:

1-if you don't lean on the bars

and

2-actually turn the thing UP

you can get a huge workout.

My hero at the gym is this 52 year old black guy. He's a fireman so he has to stay in good shape. He does an hour at a high level every time he's in there. I'd say he's like around 10% body fat and pretty dang cut. He lifts as well but spends far more time on the climber.

but, most people put the thing on like 3 or 4 and lean like crazy on the bars.


ya'll havn't cleared anything up for my, btw.:confused: ;)

oh, I dropped $80 bucks at GNC today. Whey, creatine, glucosimine/msm; flaxseed oi.

I'm going to make sure I get 100-120 grams of protein a day over the next 3 months, cut out breads(goodbye my sweet pie's), eat lots of lean meat and vegetables.

[red5angel]

Hey Oso, whats your goal anyway? I thought you were just trying to drop a few pounds?

I used to do the stairclimber as well, so don't get me wrong, I am not saying it doesn't work.

Why all the supplements?! You should if you haven't do some research on creatine. I never weight lifted professionally but my girlfriend at the time was a professional weight lifter, I met her at the gymn, and was pretty serious about it myself. I don't think creatine is much good for anyone who is just starting out training. Most of the guys I know who got the most out of it were guys hitting peaks, who needed a little boost.
Actually to be totally honest I am not impressed by any of those supplements except steroids. I wouldn't take them, don't approve of them either but of all the crap out there they are the only things I have ever seen any appreciable differences in people.
I say make sure your goals are clear and set and try it out naturaly first, use common sense with a good diet and a good workout routine. The only thing I ever bother with is the Whey protien because its more convenient then chicken sometimes.

[yenhoi]

I agree with FP.

My advice would be to stay away from any of that long distance anything. Workout for an hour, sweat, loose the lbs, put on the muscle or gain the speed.

Unless you have hours of extra training time just kinda hanging around....


:eek:

[yenhoi]

As for equipment. There is this thing called a gazelle, and its only like 20 $. Lowest impact thing ever imo.

Portable too.

:eek:

[red5angel]

What did your mom tell you about contradicting me Yenhoi? Go to your room.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by red5angel
Actually FP, thats not totally true, let me explain. Generally low impact aerobics is considered the best way to burn fat.


Not true. Go look up information on EPOC (Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption).




The other trick is to ingest protein in copious amounts. Cardio workouts will burn muscle before fat.


:rolleyes:




Thats also why the morning is the best time to do cardio, before you eat breakfast since it forces the body to burn fat.


Can you site a source for this "info"?

[Oso]

GOAL: Get ready for the Sport Jujitsu Nationals Oct 4. Lose 25 lbs so I am right at 208. That way I can go either weight division. Feel like I'm fit enough to do 5 - 8 min bouts in a day at top speed.

My thoughts on the Creatine: I have a pretty physical job. If I am going to start getting up and training at 7am, go do my job, and either teach class (M,W,Tr) or train jj (Tu,Tr) I need to not be so physically drained at the end of the day. My understanding of the creatine is that it allows the muscles to work longer with less fatigue. Today, for example, I ran my three miles, did back and bi's, and then dug a 4'x5'x1' deep hole in dense red clay, and then did the usual warm up with class. (150 jj's, 100 abs, 40 pushups) Tu/Tr workouts are supposed to go from an hour and a half to 2 1/2 hours (i know, I'd like them to be that long anyway).

So, am I wrong about the creatine helping my muscle endurance through out a 14 hour day?

My joints are starting to be really shot, so the glucosimine/msm and flax seed oil.

The whey protein is just an extra boost of protein between meals.

I like Bill Pearls simple formula of 1/2 your body weight in grams of protein.

[IronFist]

Well, first of all the problem is that your signature is too loooooong!

Second of all, I've never really heard of people using creatine while trying to lose weight. If you do so much labor during the day, you should be glad that it's causing you to burn those extra calories.

Also, if your target weight is 205, and you said you want to lose 25 lbs to get there, I would recommend more than 120 grams of protein per day (the number you had mentioned before). Generally speaking (and everyone has a different opinion), I would say get at least .75 to 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight per day. So if you're at 230lbs right now, 120g of protein is barely half of that. I'm talking about maximizing the amount of muscle that you keep, however.

So, I would personally recommend to take back the Creatine and buy more protein instead if you can't get enough protein from meals.

Good luck.

IronFist

[Oso]

Ironfist, ok, I'm obviously under-informed about creatine. Why would it inhibit fat loss? If it is conducive to lean muscle gain through helping you train longer and lean muscle gain=increased metabolism then I think it would at least be neutral and not a negativ influence.:confused:

Work: (sukks,bad) If I could do physical work all the time it would be one thing. But, cuz I'm da [size=1]boss[/size=1] I have to go from the big hole to problem solving for my idiot employee's, back to the hole, to meeting with administrators, back to the hole, to meeting with a sub, back to the hole. So, I'm drained by the end of the day but havn't actually done any sustained labor to actually benefit from. And, after 21 years of kung fu, I definitely make physical work a work out. I've made things like digging and chopping, etc. a matter of sets and reps since I was in high school.

My fat% is pretty high, 30 something I think. So, really!?! up to a 1/1 ratio of protein to weight?? The problem again is work, difficult to take time to do 6-8 meals (in the 200-300 calorie range) a day. So, breakfast is a meal for me as well as dinner/supper. Anything else in between has to be fast and small.

thanks for the input

[Serpent]

Ironfist is dead right about your sig, by the way!

Also, if you're trying to lose weight to fight and not just burn fat, then be careful with the protein. If you lose fat but put on lean muscle, you might gain weight - lean muscle weighs more than fat!

Also, I'm still waiting to hear some proof that muscles are burned before fat and why cardio before breakfast "forces the body to burn fat".

Any takers? I'm open to being educated, cos I ain't no expert.

[Kumkuat]

One theory about cardio in the morning before anything has to do with the low glycogen level in the morning. Since you don't have much glycogen in the morning, you tend to use your fat stores to use as energy. BUT! there isn't any hard evidence that doing cardio in the morning will actually do that. So do cardio whenever you want.

Also, that gazelle thing is crap. The pendulum motion is actually doing all the work for you, so you don't get any workout.

High Intensity Interval training is not just raising the intensity during your intervals. It's doing the max effort doing your intervals. So you jog or walk for bit, then you sprint as hard as you can for a bit, then you job/walk, then sprint hard, etc.,

I was talking to this chick who said she did intervals. And she said her interval length was 5 minutes. I said that was BS, but she said she's really fit. I don't know, maybe my cardio sucks. But I don't think I can sprint hard for 5 minutes.

[rubthebuddha]

red5 -- creatine won't inhibit fat loss, it will inhibit WEIGHT loss. creatine causes the muscles to store more water, thus making you more water heavy.

[Oso]

rub, ok, that makes sense with the creatine.

hmm, I pay more attention to the way my clothes fit and the way I look than the scales. Although, in this instance the poundage does matter. I only got about a 30 day supply of creatine anyway AND I already opened it so I'll see what it feels like before I buy anymore.

thanks.

[Oso]

i'm not the first or the only with a long sig.:p

just the best quality;)

[Oso]

maybe more misinformation but I heard somewhere a while ago that your body couldn't absorb more than about 20 grams of protein at a time. It would shunt the rest away as waste.

true or not?

If true then what is the time limit on this. at 8 meals a day this would mean eating every 2 hours at more than 20 grams/meal to reach 200 grams. So, the math doesn't work out...

[Kumkuat]

No, the amount of protein intake at once shouldn't be a problem.

[Ford Prefect]

Actually FP, thats not totally true, let me explain. Generally low impact aerobics is considered the best way to burn fat.

Sorry, bud, but you are incorrect. Low impact aerobics does not burn as much fat as a properly structured interval program. There have been numerous studies which show this phenomena and it has even become accepted in western sports science which is generally a few years behind the cutting edge. Not only that, but low impact/sustained effort aerobics actually premote greater fat storage, so even though they burn fat, your body adapts in a way that makes it more likely to send any access calories consumed straight to your adipose tissue.

[red5angel]

Serpent, 12 years of weight lifting and running ;)

Rub - right, I know what it does, however I find a lot of guys who are just getting started or are just getting serious about weightlifting tend to pick up on the supplements a little too quickly. Thats not to say Oso, your "new" at it.

FP - I can agree with you on the interval stuff, I just read a nice article on it last night and it sounds interesting, something I may experiment with here soon. However I have to disagree with the low impact assessment, that just hasn't been the case in my experience.

Oso, your body will only absorb so much of anything at one time. Typically most of the rest is released as waste, although your body may choose to store it as fat if you aren't eating properly. This all depends on your goal of course. My russian body building girlfreind used to eat every two hours, even getting up at 2 am to have a piece of chicken or something, so she could get enough protien and not get too hungry, because if you get hungry your body attacks your muscles.

[Oso]

Ford, I have looked for examples of HIIT but as usual there are many suggestions. Have you got a good reference for HIIT? What I don't seem to be finding is a total duration. I see everything on the intervals from 1 to 2 mins up and as little as 15 seconds down but nothing on total time. Is 24-30 minutes of interval enough? Could a lesser amount of time be effective?

tia


Thats not to say Oso, your "new" at it.

now worries, i'm the first to admit confusion on this. Back in HS (81-85) there was no discussion of nutrition. This is the first time i've trained for competition since then. So, here I is, asking...if only you silly fuggers would stop ****ing on each others legs about your opinions :D ;)...there are certainly more than one view and a google of the net shows tons of college and pro sports nutrition sites...each supported by sports med pros.

I appreciate all advice and will attempt to figure out something that works for me out of it all.


My observation about the low impact approach is that you have to sustain it for a long period of time. I've been sitting and watching the last 10 minutes of the aerbics class that's before my class and seen the same people do it twice a week for 2 years now...and there is no noticable difference in their body appearance. Their cv system is surely in good shape but with their approach of taking 2 5 minute breaks in an hour, I don't think they are going to drop any weight.

[red5angel]

You know what my advice would be to you Oso? not to worry too much about it. Use your common sense in what you are doing, eating, and taking and I guarentee you will do just fine.

[Oso]

that was the plan :)

more on HIIT

in HS (lo, these many years past) one day a week we did interval type training. Our usual day was a 3.2 mile run but one day a week we got on the track and did 1/4 mile sprints alternating with 1/4 mile jogs for 3 miles. I used to pull 56 or 57 seconds for the first 2 or 3 sprints ( aahh, youth and only weighing 140 lbs.)


lets see if I shoot for a 7 min mile that means 1 min 45 sec quarters...i'll give that a shot in the morning...1/4 mile sprints followed by 1/4 mile jogs for 3 miles...wait that's not going to get me the 21 min 3 mile if I only run 1.5 miles at a 7 mph pace...so I'd have to run the sprints at a 10.5 mph pace and the jogs at 3.5 mile an hour pace to even it out...oh, I'm gonna puke....

[red5angel]

I have some hill interval training I do that always makes me want to puke, so far so good though!

[Serpent]

Red5 - your anecdotal evidence based on your experience is hardly scientific. It's only relevant to your body type. There's a lot of scientific evidence out there that suggests different based on averages.

Low intensity does not burn more fat.

[Oso]

Low intensity does not burn more fat.

if you did it for an hour or more I think it would.

If you only have 20-30 minutes than I don't think it would and HIIT would be a better choice for that duration.





somebody else's turn to ****:p

[Serpent]

No, think about it this way:

Your body burns fat at rest as it's the most abundant fuel you have. It can't afford the oxygen to burn fat so much during intense exercise, so it burns carbs. Then it starts to metabolise fat. At low intenisty exercise it can afford to burn some fat - therein lies your argument about low intenisty exercise burning fat. Here's where it falls down:

Let's say you work out for 30 minutes. There's this thing called EPOC - Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption. The harder the workout, the longer the EPOC.

So, work hard for 30 minutes, burn off a lot of carbs, maybe also burn some fat. Hard exercise, long EPOC, you burn more fat after you stop.

Or

Work out at low intensity for 30 minutes, your body can afford to burn some fat as it has the oxygen (because of the low intensity). So you burn a little fat, but, due to the low intensity, there is little or no EPOC.

Overall, more fat is burned during and after high intensity exercise than during and after low intensity exercise.

You have to look at the whole picture.

[Ford Prefect]

OSO,

Interesting articles about different types of interval training:

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/251run2.html

Articles about some of the initial studies done on HIIT and routines:

http://www.cbass.com/FATBURN.HTM

http://www.cbass.com/SEARCHOF.HTM

Then this is a routine that is well put together as well (Taku):

Phase 1. Weeks 1 & 2 = 4 X 90 seconds work + 90 seconds recovery. Weeks 3 & 4 = 5 X 60 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery.

Phase 2. Weeks 1 & 2 = 6 X 45 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery. Weeks 3 & 4 = 7 X 30 Seconds work + 20 seconds recovery.

Phase 3. Weeks 1 & 2 = 8 X 20 seconds work + 10 seconds recovery. Weeks 3 & 4 = 10 X 20 seconds work + 10 seconds recovery.

Phase 4. (3-4 weeks peaking cycle) Week 1 Monday & Friday = 10 X 20 seconds work + 10 seconds recovery. Week 1 Wednesday = 5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 3 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 2 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

Week 2 Monday & Friday = 10 X 20 seconds work + 10 seconds recovery. Week 2 Wednesday = 5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 5 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 5 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

Week 3 Monday & Friday = 10 X 20 seconds work + 10 seconds recovery. Week 3 Wednesday = 5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 5 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 10 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

Week 4 Monday = 5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 5 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 5 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

Wednesday = 4 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 6 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery. 10 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

Friday = 5 X 30 seconds work + 60 seconds recovery. 8 X 20 seconds work + 40 seconds recovery 12 X 10 seconds work + 30 seconds recovery.

[Oso]

Ford, thanks.

On phases 1,2,3 are those done M,W,F or everyday?


The first article lays things out very clearly.

thanks again

[Ford Prefect]

2-3 times a week should be suffiecient. If you want more, you could throw a regular slow paced jog in there once a week for good measure.

[ewallace]

For mathematically impaired Americans who never ran track in high school, 400 meters is one lap around a standard track.
That's hilarious. Sad, but hilarious.

[Ford Prefect]

Hehehe. What in the hell is a "meter"?! I thought that's what I stick change into when I'm parking.

[ewallace]

Are high school tracks usually open to the public during non-school hours?

[Ford Prefect]

Yup.

[Oso]

I usually do a 2-3 hour mountain bike ride on the weekends. My fav of the last couple weeks has a 20 minute uphill at the beginning then varied terrain for the rest. After the uphill, it's a challenge to go downhill because you have to hover over the seat and essentially are doing a narrow but low horse.

I'm going to give one of these a try starting today, I did three miles monday and will just pick up w/ wednesday here in an hour or so.

[Oso]

forgot the dang printout of the pattern so I made one up:

30 sec lvl 4
30 sec lvl 14
60 sec lvl 4
30 sec lvl 14
60 sec lvl 4
30 sec lvl 14
60 sec lvl 4
30 sec lvl 14

90 sec lvl 4

30 sec lvl 14
60 sec lvl 4
30 sec lvl 14
60 sec lvl 4
30 sec lvl 12
60 sec lvl 4
30 sec lvl 12

90 sec lvl 4

30 sec lvl 10
30 sec lvl 4
30 sec lvl 10

I felt like I took a hit to the sp about half way through